A week ago, Belz, a Hareidi sect, threatened to leave Israel and I wrote So Go Already in a cavalier fashion.
I received this email shortly thereafter which puts another face on the issue. It appears I spoke to soon without sufficient thought. Ted Belman
Ted, let me tell you about Belz and the other hassidic and Yeshiva population.
There are over 60,000 American and European Yeshiva students in Israel. Each is spending an average of 30,-50,000 U S dollars per year in Israel. Besides,airfare mostly El Al for their large families travelling back and forth for simchas etc
There are at all times 13-16000 yeshiva students paying seminaries tuition and travel and maintenance besides purchases gifts etc who are spending 18-24000 per yr each.
This is by far the largest single source of foreign currency and income to Israel.
Take out you calculator and look before you talk–
Furthermore if even 4000 apartments went up for sale in a single week even months the RE estate markets in Israel will collapse.
If American Religious community would stop buying Israel products, which rep 3x as much as all of European markets, it would devastate many industries in Israel much more than any boycott
<!–RndAds–>
I can go on and on.
The real reason for avoiding the Army is because WE do not trust Israels politicians and there motivations and their policies and I personally know a number of them.
These politicians have killed thousands of our children for no purpose. We also do not trust their Generals a number of whom I know.
The whole system must be changed from bottom up to the top.
I can add a lot to this list but i cannot overcome prejudice.
I and tens of thousands thousands of former idealists have gone to Israel experienced Israel and made our own decision.
So have one and a half -two million Israelis who voted with their feet.
I am spending between 1-200,000 dollars a year in Israel and if am one of thousands who will stop if pushed too hard–I want to believe but am not stupid.
@ Bear Klein:
Police Station Zevulun, District Court, Haifa, Minister of Police, Minister of Defense, Supreme court. All documents available. All refused to do a thing. They did the opposite in fact… Details also available.
Is there a contract btw Belz and the Israeli Hareidi! It is obviously up to the Israelis to solve this problem and the $$$ spend by outsiders, religious or not give them NO rights to interfere in this issue.
yamit82 Said:
Not so bad just first generation attempting to fit in to WASP society. ” All that Glisters is not Gold”
yamit82 Said:
I see that word all the time what does it mean.
yamit82 Said:
I figured that out very early on that when I lost faith in religions. I like Amer Indian philosophies but Mother earth wasn’t enough. I do believe in “ethics” and a certain morality and would like to stand for something of value. My Evangelical relative is one who my feet on the path towards Judaism again. Enough introspection I am boring my self, back to being smart mouth outrageous and flirtatious. My camouflage.
This is a sensitive subject here in Israel but it only effects us and not Jews in the diaspora. Seems kind of weird that Jews who have never served in the IDF or even been to Israel should have a piece of this debate especially sice neither they or their sons and grandsons have served or ever will.
Whatever my own views I must say that at least they are here. Some of them do serve others by national and community service and they operate some of the most respected communal organizations like ZAKA, and Yad Sarah. Their eventual integration into Israeli society is a given. The pace depends on how much they are pushed by the secular politicians. The harder they are pushed the more resistance they will put up.
Since nobody complains about the Arabs not serving focusing on the Haredim seems to have no little anti Jewish sentiment behind it. There are more Druze generals in the IDF than religious Jews. Religious Jews it seems are barred from top command promotions. Draft dodging in the major Urban cities of secular youth is very high but few talk about it. Even a high % who do serve from those areas serve in non combat jobs. Most of the recruits come from the outlying towns, villages and I believe still from the Kibbutzim.
honeybee Said:
That’s the cement they use Fear!! Bribes= Heaven vs Hell.
honeybee Said:
No need by your descriptions they sound much like mine.
rongrand Said:
I do for some others are too far gone. Rabbis speak of a Jewish soul but I don’t believe it. We have had too many Jewish traitors to support the notion.
@ SHmuel HaLevi 2:
“During disengagement two of the gruesome specimens in uniform attempted to murder me for being fiercely opposed to “disengagement”. Documentation available and secured for whoever willing to review it.”
Did you provide this to the police?
The retreat from Gaza was stupid and disgusting! If we are flourish as a state we need to try and unite and not be separate, in-spite of legitimate grievances.
@ rongrand:
You haven’t met my relatives.
@ yamit82:
Like I said many times, “no matter where you live or where you are from, if you are Jewish you are connected to Israel by Heritage, Faith & by G-d”
I am sure they will agree.
@ yamit82:
Thanks to you my Dear Yamit82 I am beginning to understand a little Hebrew. I was doing very well with Hebrew as a child, but then my Mother decided I should learn about Lutheranism. I didn’t care for it, all Hell, sin and damnation.
yamit82 Said:
My father would say,” when I was a boy there were German Jews, Polish Jews, and Russian Jews. Hitler taught we are the all the same”.
Not sure what he means but here is my take: Haredi Jews, derogatorily called ultra-Orthodox, are a similar to the Arab citizens in Israel in many ways. They continue to exploit their original agreement with Ben Gurion, which is now irrelevant. Ben Gurion lifted the draft requirement for just 400 students of yeshivas; now all haredim are students. Their religious justification, that studying the Torah takes priority over other societal obligations, is nonsense: most are not full-time students, and anyway they could still disrupt their studies for two or three years for the army service. Besides, Jewish society just doesn’t need so many rabbis.
Hillel and Maimonides and Rashi somehow managed to work, and certainly modern haredim can follow in their footsteps. The draft-dodging is also immoral, as the haredim enjoy the armed protection of the very Israelis they consider sub-Jews. And haredim do need the protection: the first modern pogroms in Palestine started in the nineteenth century, well before the advent of Zionism. If they don’t need the protection they should go settle in Hebron or Schem under Abbas’ jurisdiction.
But draft dodging raises a deeper problem. Theoretically, I won’t blame the parents who cut off their child’s finger to prevent him from joining the IDF. What’s the point of army service today? For the past twenty-five years, Israel has used her soldiers as small coins to pay the world media. Israel sends her soldiers into unnecessarily dangerous urban battles instead of leveling the enemy towns from the air. Israeli soldiers fight strategically useless battles, such as in the last days of the Second Lebanon war. Israeli soldiers engaged strictly for the PR effect, such as the targeted assassinations and arrests in enemy territory. Israeli soldiers conduct senseless missions, such as the perpetual incursions into Gaza. Israeli soldiers are used against their own people, evicting teenagers from ramshackle “illegal outposts.”
Rabbis! Lead the Way in Battle! The Rabbis of the religious Zionist community serve in the army; why shouldn’t Haredi Rabbis also be brave examples for their students?
The Rabbis know the nature of the Amalekites of our time, and understand that they must be erased from the Earth, in order for the light of G-d to shine, as King David vowed, “I will pursue my enemies and come upon them, and not turn back until they are destroyed.”
As the newborn Nation of Israel starts its journey across the desert, Amalek attacks us out of pure hatred alone, not wanting the light of Israel to brighten the world. Moses orders his top Torah student, Joshua, to lead the Jews into battle. Not only is Joshua the Torah genius of his generation, a round-the-clock student of Torah in Moses’s tent, he is infused with a spirit of bravery and strength to defend the honor of the Hashem and his chosen Nation, Israel. Moses stands on a peak overlooking the battleground and raises his hands toward the sky to remind the Israeli “Hesder” warriors to trust in Hashem, but in the midst of the fight, his arms become heavy, and Aharon and Hur must support them and keep them aloft.
Why did his hands become heavy? In punishment, as Rashi explains: “Because he was slothful in the commandment (of waging war himself) and he appointed another in his stead, so his hands became heavy.”
Moses, the greatest Torah scholar of all time, the Chief Rabbi of Israel, was punished for not leading the very first Israel Defense Force battalion to war against the enemies of G-d! Among the commandments of the Torah, there is a commandment to go to war against the enemies of Israel and Hashem, to defend Jewish life, and to conquer the Land of Israel and keep it under Israeli sovereignty. Faced with a war of this nature, called “Milchemet Mitzvah,” everyone goes forth to battle, including a groom from under the wedding canopy. Not only are Torah students and Rabbis included in this mitzvah, it was the great Torah giants of past, Moses, Joshua, King David, and Rabbi Akiva, who led the way, as examples to everyone else.
With today’s political parties calling for everyone to share equally in the military burden, it now has become the key issue. The time has come to cast off the distorted understanding of Judaism which pictures Talmidei Chachamin as weak and scrawny figures, bent over their Talmudic tomes, engaged only in spiritual pursuits, detached from their bodies and the world around them. This was appropriate during the exile in foreign lands when we were at the mercy of the gentiles, without any national structure of our own, without our own Land to defend, and without any arms to fight against our enemies. Today, all that has changed. With the return to our Land, the Milchemet Mitzvah of the Torah has returned in full force. Everyone is obligated to share in the battle!
Draft Diaspora Jews into the IDF!
If we can’t forcibly draft Diaspora Jews, then it’s up to them to enlist on their own.
Is a Jewish kid in Brooklyn, or Chicago, or Beverly Hills less Jewish than Israeli kids? Is the Land of Israel less of a homeland for American Jews than it is for Israelis? Why should we, the Israelis, be the ones to fight the enemies of Israel, and not Diaspora Jews as well? If you answer, “Because I’m an America citizen,” that doesn’t cut the cake. I’m an America citizen too, but I served in the IDF. The fact that a Jew is a United States citizen, or a German citizen, or a citizen of Zululand, is merely a technicality.
A Jew is a Jew. That’s what the Nazis taught us. Whether a Jew was a German, or a Pole, or a Rumanian, or a Hungarian, they were all herded onto trains for the ovens.
We are members of the Nation of Israel – the Children of Israel. The word Jew doesn’t exist in the Torah. It’s a deviation of the exile, as in Mordechai the Jew, meaning someone who was exiled from the kingdom of Judah. In our essence, we are the Children of Israel, whether we live in Boston or LA.
Draft Diaspora Jews into the IDF!
If we can’t forcibly draft Diaspora Jews, then it’s up to them to enlist on their own.
Is a Jewish kid in Brooklyn, or Chicago, or Beverly Hills less Jewish than Israeli kids? Is the Land of Israel less of a homeland for American Jews than it is for Israelis? Why should we, the Israelis, be the ones to fight the enemies of Israel, and not Diaspora Jews as well? If you answer, “Because I’m an America citizen,” that doesn’t cut the cake. I’m an America citizen too, but I served in the IDF. The fact that a Jew is a United States citizen, or a German citizen, or a citizen of Zululand, is merely a technicality.
A Jew is a Jew. That’s what the Nazis taught us. Whether a Jew was a German, or a Pole, or a Rumanian, or a Hungarian, they were all herded onto trains for the ovens.
We are members of the Nation of Israel – the Children of Israel. The word Jew doesn’t exist in the Torah. It’s a deviation of the exile, as in Mordechai the Jew, meaning someone who was exiled from the kingdom of Judah. In our essence, we are the Children of Israel, whether we live in Boston or LA.
Rabbis! Lead the Way in Battle! The Rabbis of the religious Zionist community serve in the army; why shouldn’t Haredi Rabbis also be brave examples for their students?
The Rabbis know the nature of the Amalekites of our time, and understand that they must be erased from the Earth, in order for the light of G-d to shine, as King David vowed, “I will pursue my enemies and come upon them, and not turn back until they are destroyed.”
As the newborn Nation of Israel starts its journey across the desert, Amalek attacks us out of pure hatred alone, not wanting the light of Israel to brighten the world. Moses orders his top Torah student, Joshua, to lead the Jews into battle. Not only is Joshua the Torah genius of his generation, a round-the-clock student of Torah in Moses’s tent, he is infused with a spirit of bravery and strength to defend the honor of the Hashem and his chosen Nation, Israel. Moses stands on a peak overlooking the battleground and raises his hands toward the sky to remind the Israeli “Hesder” warriors to trust in Hashem, but in the midst of the fight, his arms become heavy, and Aharon and Hur must support them and keep them aloft.
Why did his hands become heavy? In punishment, as Rashi explains: “Because he was slothful in the commandment (of waging war himself) and he appointed another in his stead, so his hands became heavy.”
Moses, the greatest Torah scholar of all time, the Chief Rabbi of Israel, was punished for not leading the very first Israel Defense Force battalion to war against the enemies of G-d! Among the commandments of the Torah, there is a commandment to go to war against the enemies of Israel and Hashem, to defend Jewish life, and to conquer the Land of Israel and keep it under Israeli sovereignty. Faced with a war of this nature, called “Milchemet Mitzvah,” everyone goes forth to battle, including a groom from under the wedding canopy. Not only are Torah students and Rabbis included in this mitzvah, it was the great Torah giants of past, Moses, Joshua, King David, and Rabbi Akiva, who led the way, as examples to everyone else.
With today’s political parties calling for everyone to share equally in the military burden, it now has become the key issue. The time has come to cast off the distorted understanding of Judaism which pictures Talmidei Chachamin as weak and scrawny figures, bent over their Talmudic tomes, engaged only in spiritual pursuits, detached from their bodies and the world around them. This was appropriate during the exile in foreign lands when we were at the mercy of the gentiles, without any national structure of our own, without our own Land to defend, and without any arms to fight against our enemies. Today, all that has changed. With the return to our Land, the Milchemet Mitzvah of the Torah has returned in full force. Everyone is obligated to share in the battle!
@ Ted Belman:
Well said.
I have a comment blocked by spam filter.
Further Response to the email Ted received. First of all I challenge his stats re: number of non Israelis studying in Yeshivot. I think the total # is around 50,000 including Israelis. Not all foreigners pay full tuition many receive scholarships of one form or another. Many accept Israeli citizenship to take advantage of government subsidies.
Specious argument no more than an excuse for staying in the exile. If all the Jews were to come settle and live in Israel most of the criticisms would disappear by force of numbers. Secular Jews offer excuses and religious Jews offer theirs.
Every traditional Jew must take a long and deep look at himself. He must ask difficult and painful questions. How is it possible to honestly pray three times a day to the Almighty to restore us to Zion when that restoration is theirs at a cost of a few hundred dollars, courtesy of El Al? What rationalizations can we invent to answer those who question our lamentations for Zion when the Jewish Agency is prepared to grant long-term loans for housing and transportation for those who wish to settle in Israel? What can hide our shame as we fervently proclaim “Next Year in the Land of Israel” when next year has already come, when the gates of the Holy Land stand open, when the obligation to return can and demands to be fulfilled?
All this has nothing to do with the particular religious Jew’s attitude toward the government or State of Israel. I speak here, not of political Zionism, but of the original and permanent obligation to go up and settle the Holy Land – an obligation that is clear and binding upon all – When a famous Rosh Yeshiva chided Ben Gurion on the secularism of Israel, the then Prime Minister cunningly replied: “Let the American religious Jews come here and put me out of office.”
The Religious Jew
“That which they do not wish to do, They do not. But first, They must stamp the swine with the halachic label of kosher…”
“What matter that the rabbis decree that “a man shall rather live in the Land of Israel in a city with a majority of heathens rather than in the Exile in a city with a majority of Jews.” What matter that the rabbis proclaim that “one who lives outside of Israel worships idols in purity…”? What matter that they intone that one who lives outside the land “is as one who has no G-d”? One knows how to explain away rabbinical injunctions when the spirit so desires…”
Trust? Who in their right minds trust politicians. Millions of Jews came to Israel because they trusted politicians or because they agreed with their policies???
“Politicians have killed thousands of our children for no purpose”? Even were this spurious argument to have some truth to it???? Rabbis in Europe who told their flock not to leave when Hitlers intentions became clear were better? Leading Rabbis who cooperated with the Yamit and Gush Katif expulsions were better?
I want to be perfectly clear. I am not against the Hareidi. What I am for is that everyone has an obligation as a citizen. To the extent that the Hareidi want nothing to do with the state and will not obey its laws, I take issue. I married a Sabra who was the daughter of a Ger Hasid. Her parents moved to Canada during the ’48 war and ended up staying. But my wife had many uncles and aunts and cousins living in Meashirim and Peta Tikvah. I always enjoyed visiting them. They can choose the lifestyle they wish to live. But they cannot choose to ignore their duty to the state. Whatever country they might live in they would have to abide by its laws. Most western countries have laws that reasonably accommodate religious practices. Back in Israel the Knesset should be supreme. The Hereidi must recognize this and rely on the good will of their fellow citizens to accommodate them. But there is a limit and they refuse to recognize it. They constitute a state within a state. This is untenable. I once went to a talk by a couple of very senior rabbis and one of them said “When push comes to shove, we’ll show them who’s boss.” That’s the problem.
Response to the author of Email to Ted:
The phrase “Kol Yisrael arevim zeh la-zeh” means “all Jews (or all the people of Israel) are responsible for one another.” kol yisrael arayvim zeh la-zeh means, “all of the people Israel are responsible for one another.” Originates from the Talmud (Shevuot 39a)
The concept of Kol Yisrael … applies specifically to Jews out of the recognition that historically the Jewish people needed to rely on itself rather than waiting for the world to save it. In modern times the Holocaust demonstrated the reality of Jewish isolation, and modern Israel, irrespective of its political leaders, continues to experience such isolation and the need for Jewish self-sufficiency. Helping a fellow Jew is extremely important because we have a moral and social responsibility as members of an extended family and a historic community. To quote the old adage, “Charity begins at home?’ If Jews do not support the land of Israel, for instance, who will?
Israel is a Holy Unit – the children of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. No other religion I know comprises a “Peoplehood”. “Mamlechet Kohanim v’Goy Kadosh” We have one common root. As the song quoting the Zohar states: “G-d, Israel, and the Torah are one”
Jews are expected to be a “light unto the nations”, presenting a model of morality and brotherly responsibility. Specifically in terms of Kol Yisrael.. the hope is that other peoples will see how Jews help each other and will try to do the same for their own people.
Acheinu is a prayer we say asking Hashem to protect our brethren wherever they may be.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMdOuS-ArTo
@ Bear Klein:
Absolutely. I am a decorated former soldier, front line. Also a former Invited Consultant to the IMoD. Senior-Fellow Engineer Military Avionics. If the IDF would be cleansed of sold out command, of course. Today I would not “serve”. Please research how the present CoS was “selected”… He is a fall back choice after sabotage, bribery and perhaps worse tainted the process. The political generals are a total disaster. And worse. And yes, they “use” soldiers and us.
Somber further detail.
During disengagement two of the gruesome specimens in uniform attempted to murder me for being fiercely opposed to “disengagement”. Documentation available and secured for whoever willing to review it.
No Jews may serve to uproot other Jews, assault other Jews, no way nohow. Or to pamper the enemy.
Further. Tens of thousands of Tel Aviv, etc, special… families kids never serve or get overseas or special privileges pseudo service jobs. Lapid himself was never a “lochem”. Probably using his father connections secured him a posting as a “reporter at the military radio”. The chump, arrogant insolent anti-Jewish creep never finished HS… but he did try to finagle a college degree by trickery, he was found out.
Equal service, yes. Equal in every most minimal, tiny detail including career promotions, access to the best jobs, etc, yes, cannon fodder, NO! Using military to persecute targeted sectors. NO WAY. Regardless if Jewish or any other creed.
@ Ted Belman:
Ted, if someone simply states the likely course of action he and others will take, it can be construed as a vicious threat or simply that this is how things will turn out. The physical and economic punishment carried within this law came just as things were picking up for the goals of army service and national service. In addition, courses that cater to Hareidim have become more popular and are producing well-trained people in technology and even in intelligence. Nahal Hareidi has also been mentioned in other posts and would have been unheard of within the Yeshiva community just a decade ago.
Why then was a punitive bill proposed at this junction? We need not speculate. The IDF has been used as an instrument of social integration for all manner of groups. Using the IDF on the Yeshiva and Hareidi community to nudge and shove them out of their dedication to Torah has been a constant theme within the secular community. Frankly, those on the political Left unashamedly take the Marxist view that in order to produce a proper Marxist society it is permitted to eliminate “minor cultures.” The One-World crowd opposes Israel because it violates the provision that a Marxist society will not countenance anachronistic tribal loyalties. So here is the paradox: While the world tries to eliminate Israel, Israel tries to eliminate the Hareidi community. The Belz threat to leave Israel, I am certain, brought broad smiles and eager anticipation of their departure to those on the unenlightened Left.
Who wins here? Only the enemies of the modern State of Israel! Can’t we just get along, by doing nothing if necessary? One of the things we can learn from the Hareidi community is that political action is not always necessary or desirable. A quiet contemplative life serves all groups.
I venture to say this tells it all.
This is why you should want to serve.
G-d bless those young men and women who serve their nation proud.
@ Ted Belman:
The purpose of all Israeli conflicts was the desire to keep the state and save Jews. For this all Jews benefit.
I have not a clue what the person Ted quoted was talking about except to say, we can leave and it will hurt Israel in the wallet.
What I hear is we do not accept the state of Israel. We will take what we want from it and do not have to obey the laws we do not agree with. We certainly do not have to serve in the army alongside you. Even if a separate unit void of women is made for us.
This bothered me a lot. I disagree with the statement. Nor is it a reason to avoid the draft. It is not for individual citizens to sit in judgement. Israel isn’t remotely comparable to US in the Viet Nam War. But even in that case a draft dodger was a draft dodger. Everyone must serve.
The threat to leave now has the appearance of a boycott. This author says you better keep off our backs or its going really hurt you in the pocket book. We’ll kill the economy. So do as we demand. No I don’t like it one bit.
@ SHmuel HaLevi 2:
Forget Lapid and his father for a second if possible please.
Should not all sectors of Israeli society serve in the defense of the country?
same argument as Obama and the EU
This is a valid argument but I am not sure I buy it. I never hear them raising this argument in protest which seems more important than perks and avoiding the army. If this were important to them they would put the same energy, as they do to keep their perks and privileges, into that issue. After all, aren’t the children of non haredi jews being sent to be killed in that same army, that they avoid and that protects them? OR are they only out for themselves?
The money threat of religious boycotts, if they dont get what they want, reminds me of Obama/Kerry/euro threats and my reaction is the same reaction of disgust. This did not change my mind as to their behavior.
Furthermore, I never see them protesting to retain Jewish sovereignty on the Temple Mount or over YS.
I was not swayed by these arguments.
Originally I did now want to respond to Ted’s remark, I consider him a good human being and a friend. His release of that note to him, adds to my respect for Ted.
But since my betters have very much confirm in that note my many time posted considerations regarding the now entirely corrupt state institutions, I must say that the whole spectacle fabricated by Lapid and Livni against the Orthodox community is a crude expression of hatred, anti-Semitic intent. Has nothing to do “serving”.
I do not know if Ted knew Lapid, the father. That one was a major power supporting the “disengagement pogrom”. Old Lapid, now defunct, associates happily piped “there is nothing wrong with being a bit anti-Semitic”…
Speech making aside, Netanyahu chose those two and others of the same breed as his key ministers. One cannot but conclude that birds of a feather….
People have complaints. However all sectors of society need take the good with the difficult.
So if you are a Zionist religious Jew you willingly do your duty and go to Yeshiva and Army. Many serving as officers in the best combat units. If you are not “dati” (religious) you as a loyal Israeli will serve in the IDF (in most cases in a volunteer combat unit).
But if you belong to a sect whose Rabbis say those other Jews (or the politicians) are not quite kosher enough that is a valid excuse not to serve? Do these sects need need more than 10% of their population to be full time Yeshiva students? The balance of 90% afforded the opportunity to go to Yeshiva, plus do either national service (non-military) or IDF service?
I do not understand these arguments. Nothing in Judaism has ever been against serving in a Jewish State Army.
If someone truly knows what they consider a valid argument I would like to hear it. I love all Jews but I am most befuddled by what I view as a situation in which is now a political football. I know Ya’alon wanted to work this out with the heads of the groups opposed to serving in lieu of laws of forced compliance (he did not win out.
Israel needs all Jews to work and participate in all parts of the country.
That’s nice but don’t expect women to take a step backwards. Are you starting to understand Ted why Hashem is actually keeping many ‘Israeli heart’ Jews in the diaspora??
Like you, Ted, I also think that I have spoken too soon.
I thank my cure of ignorance to a large degree to yamit’s comments and links.
I just NEVER had a chance of seeing things from another perspective.
The clincher for me was a video about the nahal haredi (I replied to that post, but it was kept in moderation… 🙁 )
So, yeah… There is more to it than meets the eye