T. Belman. Every country has laws which are passed by a democratic government or by a totoletarian government as the case may be. Regardless, some laws we support and some we rail against. Then there are religious laws which come from God or the Rabbinate depending on your point of view.
The secular among us abide by laws they don’t like but reject any laws coming from the Torah. Is there really a difference between secular laws and religious laws. At least the violation of religious law doesn’t involve a penalty.
Please make the case for why we should or should not have religious law.
To survive and strive, the Jewish state also needs the “other Israel,” it needs all those black-suited rabbis and students.
It has been said that the population of Israel will reach 20 million inhabitants in 2065. Of these, about a third will be haredi-religious and religious Zionist orthodox Jews.
The never born new government of Benjamin Netanyahu has just fallen ovr these religious Jews whom the secular Israel Beytenu party, led by Avigdor Liberman, wanted to force to enlist in the IDF.
Slowly but surely, it is already happening: about 7200 haredim served in 2017, several thousand are serving right now and more will be enlisted in the national service. More haredi men and women are entering the job market. It is a natural process of integration in a successful capitalistic society such as the Israeli one.
The point is another one. The point, here, is the secular contempt for the haredi Jews.
At the first glance, Israeli society presents, sometimes exasperatingly, the same secular characters of the most advanced Western societies. It is important this Israel exists and continues to bring about all the successes of contemporary economy and culture. But, to survive and strive, the Jewish state also needs the “other Israel,” all those rabbis and students, their enduring marriages blessed with many children, with their continuous passage from earth to heaven, a mysterious and intransigent society, made up of black-suited young men swaying in prayer.
In the last several years, Israel has seen a wave of religious fervor, not only among the orthodox Jews, but also among the secular ones returning to religion. At national level, with the law of the nation-state. Israel, a modern democratic state, is taking in fact the opposite path of the West, which repudiated its own religious history, culture and tradition and it is now culturally and physically exhausted.
That pious, humble and religious Israel, with its the prodigious familiarity with God and Jewish religious tradition, has been essential in keeping Israeli society strong, especially such a besieged society encircled with enemies.
The religious communities are the bulwark of Israeli society. If you try to integrate them into general society, Israel will benefit from it. If you try to assimilate then, Israel will lose the baricenter of Jewish strength.
@ Adam Dalgliesh:
Adam I apologise sincerely-you did not write that. I read your post hurriedly and am in error on that particular point, having confused it with another (the one mentioned) I strongly hold and have mentioned many times before.. BUT …on the other points …
(Paraphrasing) “Arab MKs could get others to join their spearheading a vote against the Bill….AND WIN…that;s raw, unadulterated barleycorn. Also that they’d support the Haredim because their exemption means also Islamic religious exemption, that would enable them to have enough “imams ” etc…that is sheer double-dross. One Mosque, a handful (at very most) of imams ,,,there for life. And not wanting Haredi inductees because it would enlarge (strengthen) the IDF ….
The Army does no NEED Haredis; there is just a principle behind this whole mess…that all citizens should be equal when it comes to availability for being drafted to serve. IF there were to be a REAL influx of Haredim, this would displace some secular potential draftees.
The benefit of Haredim in the IDF is..1) that they provide some crack units. 2) that they are introduced to skills that enable them to earn a decent living after their term has expired (really a benefit to the country)..3) they set an example for others that Haredim can serve and still study as (almost) usual. 4) It shows the general population that in actual fact. Harrdim ARE serving-and many with distinction.
The usual Rosh Yeshiva, so adament against serving, has never served, is ossified and will never be any different. Perhaps when a new generation grows up, there may even be a Rosh who has been a former IDF combat soldier….(if their stringencies allow this.)
The army has a fairly well regulated requirement of specific numbers each year. They ve been downsizing, with many units having already disappeared and not being replaced, rather than enlarging, so its purely a battle of principle. (or semantics).
The original reason the Haredim gave many many years go…or one of the main reasons, was that by devoting themselves to the exacting requirements of Torah, they were in line with G-D’s commandments and it was THEY who were securing the protection of the Creator. That it, and they, were neccessary to be as they were/are even for that reason alone. ……Who knows……..???
To me it’s akin to the Olim who, once they first step on Israel’s Holy Ground have been taught that this return to the Holy Land is sufficient, and no more prayers or adherence to religiosity is actually needed.
Despite Tension, IDF Sees Record Haredi Enlistment
By Ahuva Balofsky August 4, 2013 , 2:11 pm. Ted, my comments on this article have been trashed. Could you please find it in the trashpile and return it to this space?
“Despite Tension, IDF Sees Record Haredi Enlistment
By Ahuva Balofsky August 4, 2013 , 2:11 pm.” This article is from nearly five years ago in Breaking Israel News. It reports that the Supreme Court hrulled the haredi exemption law “”unconstitutional” at that time. And a bill to correct the situation had already passed its “first reading in 2013. Somehow these bills never seem to pass their second or third readings. And the Supreme Cout never enforces its five-year-old reading. I am skeptical that this five year old inaction is going to change this year.
On the other hand, the IDF does seem to have achieved its 2013 goal of enlisting 10,000 haredi men voluntarily in the IDF, with the enlistment of 7, 200 in 2017-18, up from only 400 in 2013. My guess is that the haredi enlistment issue will “evaporate” over the next several years as most yaredi youths decide not to request exemptions for religious studies and instead enlist in the iDF. I believe that younger generations of haredim, born in Israel, are progressively losing their parents diaspora view that military service is a form of oppression imposed by the state. This attitude developed as a result of the Tsarist and Soviet governments in Russia using conscription as a means of forcing assimilation on Jews and separating them from Judaism. But I think haredi youths born in Israel no longer think of Israeli society and the IDF as being the same as their Russian counterparts. As a result, more and more young haredim will enlist in the iDF every year.
@ Edgar G.: Edgar, I never suggested that Arabs be drafted into the Israeli army or trained in IDF tactics. Rather it was Bear who said that the IDF was training haredi (not Arab) volunteers for future IDF service in these tactics. I summarized the views of my Chabad rabbi, who suggested a similar idea–six months training by the IDF of yeshiva students in basic military tactics, so that they could serve as a back-up reserve force “of last resort” in a national emergency .
I haveneversuggested that Arabs should serve in the IDF or receive training in military tactics by the IDF. If some post to that effect has appeared under my name (I have not seen any such post) it must be a forgery.
@ Adam Dalgliesh:
Adam..in my opinion, strongly held after reading your post, every one of your “reasons” is specious or at least, fallacious. What difference does it make if Arab MKs vote , they have no majority even with Labour, Meretz and Blue/and white. Such nonxense…. I”m surprised at this cming from such a cerebral poster like you. And the other reasons are worse. Arabs are \not drafted, so……… To train Arabs in IDF tactics is nothing short of mashugga.
Better forget it. tTry to delete that post. ……
@ Bear Klein: Absolutely true, Bear. I can’t prove anything. These are just my personal opinions.
@ Bear Klein:
Bear, the surveys conducted by the Hartman institute do indicate that the overwhelming majority of those polled, including those who identified themselves as “religious” or “traditional” as well as those who identified themselves as secular. Amazingly, 13% of those who identified themselves as “haredi” agreed with you that haredi religious students should be drafted as well as anybody else. Perhaps not coincidentally, that is roughly the same percentage of haredi men who do serve in the IDF.
However, there seems to be some increse in the last three years in members of the public who support the haredi position who support the haredi position–from less than 10 percent in 2009 to 30 per cent in 2019. However, this may be because the 2019 survey included Arabs in the survey. The Arabs were divided 50-50 as to whether haredim should serve in the iDF. Both the Arabs and the Jews surveyed overwhelmingly opposed Arabs serving in the iDF.
@ Bear Klein</b Bear, your 10 per cent exemption idea sounds good to me.
It is true that my rabbi, who is an Italian citizen, has never served in the IDF. As far as I know, he has never lived in Israel and is not an Israeli citizen. But he says his youngest brother is an Israeli citizen and has served in the IDF. His other brothers and sisters and his father still live and work in Italy.
@ Bear Klein: Yes, I remember reading this article, Bear. Thanks for reminding me of it.
Back to the issue: At this point, rightly or wrongly, at the present time is not looking like the Knesset will pass anew law concerning haredi conscription in the near future, even after September 17. This is because the Arab parties are on record opposing a draft for the haredim. And the Arabs are certain to win some seats.
The Arabs oppose a haredi draft for three reasons. One, they support replacing Israel with “Palestine,” and they support the Palestinian terrorists. So they don’t want more soldiers for the IDF. Two, they appreciate the fact that most of the haredim consider themsleves as non-Zionist or even anti-Zionist. Third, the law that exempts the haredim from the draft also exempts Muslim seminary students from the draft. And the predominently Muslimparties think they need this exemption to staff their mosques with imams-preachers (mostly anti-Israel, of course). As a result, the Arab MKs will probably vote “no” on the Leiberman bill.
The Likud and its allies will also vote “no’ because they need the support of the haredim to form a government. In addition, I think many Likudniks and the other rightwing parties have some sympathy with the haredi point of view.
This means that in order to pass the Leiberman bill, he will need 6i Jewish MKs from the left-of-center parties plus his own delegation. That will be a tough bar to pass.
@ Adam Dalgliesh:no
Does this link work?
@ Bear Klein: Yes, I noticed this too. I wonder what I did wrong. I’m definitely not a computer whiz, Bear.
@ Adam Dalgliesh:LINK Failure!
@ Bear Klein: Bear, I am aware of the court’s former rulings. My point is their latest ruling (in June 2019) they seem to be backing away from giving a court order on the issue. Please read the JP article I referenced).
Did I succeed in making a link to it? I tried my best. If I failed to insert a link, please write back and I will try again.
@ Adam Dalgliesh:
The last law the Knesset passed on the draft the court kicked it back because the court said it violated the principle of treating all equal. It said the Knesset needed to correct the situation so that equality will exist in the draft law. I am paraphrasing but what wrote is the gist of the ruling.
This did not happen before shutting down of prior Knesset.
An interesting article in the Jerusalem Post from a few days ago ago, which suggests, contrary to what most people are expecting, it is planning to go easy on the haredim when in rules on the issue. At present, it is supposed to rule on it by July 10, its self-proclaimed deadline for the Knesset to act. However, it delayed its previous self-proclaimed deadline at that time because of the new elections. So presumably it will delay its “new”deadline again now until after September 17.
However, it has now ruled in favor of a group of haredi petitioners who asked the court to quash their draft notices on a legal technicality. Amazingly, given the “Supremes” reputation as anti-haredi, it upheld the haredi’s draft deferment request. It also ruled that only the Knesset could make a law to draft haredim. It was not its job. This is inconsistent with numerous other rulings of the court, in which it has issues decrees that had no basis in any law passed by the Knesset. Obviously the court considers the haredi draft issue to be a political hot potato that it wants no part of. So it has passed the buck to the Knesset, which wont even be able to vote on it until after September 17.
@ Adam Dalgliesh:
Actually here is the compromise the IDF and Chabad came up with:
@ Adam Dalgliesh:
I think the top 10% of Haredi Yeshiva Students should be an given exemption from IDF service provided they continue their studies. Hardly anyone on my side of the debate would object to a compromise like this. The rest should be eligible for the draft or national service as needed.
So the best and brightest Haredi Students could continue their Yeshiva studies without being bothered by defending the country.
Religious Zionists all serve in the IDF and many still continue Yeshiva study. So this one you need to protect the country by studying is a total farce of an excuse.
The IDF even offers programs pre-enlistement (during HS days) to get Haredi who volunteer get physical fit. They do things such as learn Krav Mag. So one who has a desire will have an opportunity to serve in the people’s army.
What you have now is the reverse. Example of a prior year, OF about ~30,000 age eligible 3000 were supposed to serve according to the agreed upon quota. Less than 3000 number actually served.
It is nice your rabbi in the USA (who my guess is never served in the IDF) came up with a solution. How that works in the IDF for defense needs, is that it does NOT. His idea would have defense 70 years ago perhaps but the type of training he is talking about would be good enough for guard duty and not military duty. Military weapons and tactics for actual combat soldiers are very different in the modern world. Also the IDF has accommodated the lifestyle to the Haredi needs.
The country offers them even national service (which could be were they live) and they refuse. Your rabbi was correct on one thing even his compromise would not be accepted by many of the Haredi.
The Chabad compromise with the Def. Ministry was they could delay their service by one year so they could fulfill their one year Chabad service.
Bear, hopefully this will be my final word on the subject.
Since I am genuinely confused on this issue, and torn in my mind between your and Edgar’s views on it, I asked my Chabad rabbi for his opinion. What he said made sense to me.
He thinks that it does make sense for some individuals to be exempt from military service in order to devote themselves full time to Torah study . His reasoning is that Israel’s national survival depends as much on divine protection as it does on the heroism of the IDF. Without some people being devoted full-time to prayer, he reasons, Israel could not have one its miraculous victory in 1967, and eventually the state would fail without a group devoted full-time to prayer.
He also thinks that most, although not all, talmidim are not the best human material for military service, because their education and strict obedience to religious laws makes them a bad fit for the IDF.
On the other hand, he points out that his younger brother, who is also a rabbi, not only served in the IDF, but served in an elite sniper unit and saw plenty of action, even with sidecars under his helmet. He is proud of his brother.
He proposes a somehat complicated compromise solution. Talmid Torah should not actually serve in the iDF, but should be required to back up the IDF by temporarily performing civilian jobs, like cleaning the streets and driving trucks, that the reservists cannot perform when called up. In this way normal civilian activity can continue during a call-up.
He also thinks that all talmidim should be required to do a six month stint in the IDF, in which they receive basic training in the use of firearms. They would also be issued rifles. In the event of a true ‘all hands on deck” national emergency, they would be called up to serve as reserve soldiers.
This sounds like a rational compromise solution to me. All Jews should consider themselves brothers and sisters, and when they have serious disagreements, they should try to resolve them through compromise, rather than one side insisting on getting its way 100 per cent. Of course, literal brothers and sisters often fail to do this, although they should.
When I asked my rabbi whether he thinks the haredi leadership in Israel would agree to his proposed compromise (which I suspect is modeled on the compromise that Chabad of Israel has negotiated for its people with the IDF), he admitted that he didin’t think so.
Although the Israeli Chabadniks are haredi in the worship customs, most are closer to the national-religious in their political views.
@ Adam Dalgliesh:You can not prove your theory that most fit serve because most play a game and do not even get to a physical.
Look at the stats only 10% serve of those of age eligible serve. They fail to make even small quota assigned to them as a group. It is pathetic.
Feel free to hang to your theory for whatever reason you came up with it. Israelis DO NOT buy it.
@ Bear Klein: Bear, I never wrote that most haredim serve. Rather I wrote that most of military age who were fit for duty in the judgment of the army recruitment and draft offices did serve. For the reasons that I described in my previous posts, most haredi young men cannot pass the army’s physical and mental fitness tests when called up to report for the draft. Their education and upbringing do not give them the necessary physical fitness and learned skills, such as adequate knowledge of secular subjects, to function as soldiers. Military recruiters think that most of the haredi men whom they examine would be a burden rather than a help to the military, since they would need considerable physical and skills training before they would be fit to serve. On the other hand, that minority who are physically and mentally fit for duty usually do end up serving, either as volunteers or draftees. But even they usually require some additional training, more than the average recruit, before they can be assigned to active duty. As a result, many non-haredi members of the Knesset complain that it costs too much to train them, and the money can be better spent for other IDF programs. The politicians seeking to exploit the haredi draft issue never explain these practical obstacles to mass haredi enlistment, which would exist even if none of the haredim were granted exemptions for Torah study. It is not at all clear that if all haredi young men were called up for their draft physicals and all reported to the draft offices, the total number who would qualify for service would be many more than the number already serving.
@ Adam Dalgliesh:Sorry most Haredim do NOT serve. About 10% of them serve.
Click on my above words it is a link. Yes there are more than there used to be but overall they are mass evaders of IDF service. One can rationale how you want and why it this disgrace exists but it is really bad news.
I believe that most haredim who are physically and mentally fit for service actually do serve in the IDF. I don’t have the documentation at my fingertips, but I believe that many haredi men called in for their draft examination are rejected because they can’t meet the physical and educational requirements for admission to the IDF. Most of those who do meet the requirements are drafted and don’t resist the draft.
The problem is not that the haredi leadership refuses to permit any haredi men from serving, but that many haredi schools don’t provide the necessary course work and phyical fitness training (gym classes, sports), necessary to prepare young men for service. However, in recent years many haredi school administrators have been open to these additional classes, but have complained that the Education ministry has failed to provide funding for them in haredi schools.
There is also a problem with many young haredi men having poor eyesight due to the constant study and prayer from open books, and the custom of bobbing up and down while praying from open books. This causes them to be rejected for service.
Again, since most haredi men who are able to make useful contributions to the IDF in either combat or non-combat roles, do in fact serve, the political baliban over this issue is without any practical value for the nationel defense, and is pure hypocrisy.
This is from a December 2 2018 issue of Ynetnews:Haredi IDF enlistment figures revealed
The Knesset Research and Information Center’s (RIC) report shows that the army invests tens of millions of shekels a year in programs that assist Haredi lone soldiers . ..
The Knesset Research and Information Center’s (RIC) report, obtained by Ynet, on ultra-Orthodox enlistment in the IDF has revealed that as of last August, 7,250 Haredi soldiers enlisted in the IDF, about a third of which defined as lone soldiers, in whom the IDF invests millions of shekels a year in aid programs. ”
Even though this article reveals that many haredi men do in fact serve in the IDF, the leftist Ynet news article complains that the IDF invests millions of shekels in support services for haredi soldiers, and programs to help them find work after army service (although secular soldiers are eligible for these programs, too) that could be better spent “winning wars.” (I.) The implication is that the secularists really don’t want haredim to serve in the iDF, and are actually concerned that too many are already serving! The suggests to me that the political baliban over the haredi draft, using it as a rationale for closing down the Knesset, is pure hypocrisy.
@ Adam Dalgliesh:
Thank you for sending me that info. I recall the discussions, and the institution of the procedures which made no waves and were barely noticed, except by the IDF authorities and, as I recall, the Comptroller.
With my posts on this subject, dredged from my memory and experiences. and your posts collected from substantive research, show….as the “Jedge says”….that “beyond a shadow of any reasonable doubt” (slightly altered) that all Jewish affairs are VERY complicated, and the relationship between Haredim and Jews who are not Haredi (even including Jews who regard themselves as Orthodox, but seen as goyim by SOME Haredim-based on their Rebbe’s ruling) are not set in stone, but provide a shifting Kaleidoscope in colour of about 999 different facets.
{{As I earlier said, due to outside pressures (this time within Israel) the Rabonim always found a way, often “roundabout” (I mentioned Rashi, Maimonedes, etc all) to conform with the pressures, or/and authorities, whilst still adhering in the end, to the PRINCIPLES to which they were devoted}}.
The ancient dictum of “BUILD A FENCE AROUND THE TORAH”. is far stronger than Trump’s wall, and has lasted for roughly 2500 years….and still going like a Duracell battery.
Just don’t ask me which horse will win next year’s Grand National…….
@ Adam Dalgliesh:
Adam Dalgliesh Said:
You meant to say “Religious Zionist Rabbis” or in Hebrew “Dati Leumi” Rabbis, I believe as the Haredi are also dati (religious)? Or Orthodox.
There are more Haredi soldiers but the problem is far from solved. Coercion of forcefully under penalty drafting is not likely to fix things I agree with the captain you quoted.