By Prof Aviad Hacohen, ISRAEL HAYOM
The blatant and ugly accusations leveled at the Shin Bet security agency over its operations — the majority of which, if not all, will surely be refuted soon — undermine first and foremost Israel’s national security.
The Shin Bet is not above the law. Like any other government agency, it is subjected to a series of legal rules and norms, and while protecting national security may allow it some leeway that slightly deviates from the general norms, the red lines are clear.
It is precisely these clear red lines that make the orchestrated onslaught on the Shin Bet by certain elements on the political Right very puzzling. After all, the 1960s and 1970s, when the security agency’s methods existed in a legal vacuum, are long gone. Its unorthodox interrogation tactics, which sometimes included unlawful acts, were significantly toned down following the 1987 recommendations of a government inquiry set up after the deaths in custody of two Palestinian prisoners, and curbed further in 2002, when the Israel Security Agency Law was enacted.
The Shin Bet’s attorneys are on call 24/7 and they have to sign off on any operation and any interrogation method used in any case, especially if these entail skating on thin legal ice. After the fact, the agency’s tactics are subject to legal scrutiny by the High Court of Justice, and while such rulings go unpublished more often than not for reasons of national security, the court keeps a very close eye on the Shin Bet.
Terrorism is terrorism, regardless of whether its targets are Jews or Arabs or the political affiliations of its perpetrators. A wise man once said, “By way of deception thou shalt do war.” The war on terror cannot be waged solely with regular legal instruments. All democracies worldwide have acknowledged that when fighting terrorism, unorthodox measures must often be used.
This is why Israeli law affords the Shin Bet a certain leeway, a licensee to step away from the regular detention laws and to infringe, to an extent, on the right to privacy and property.
It is because of this special license that the security agency’s director must periodically report to the attorney general, prime minister, government, and the Knesset’s Subcommittee for Intelligence and Secret Services, and brief them on the Shin Bet’s operations, the information derived from its interrogations, and how that information is used.
This constant scrutiny seeks to ensure the agency adheres to the proper checks and balances necessary when dealing with an equation juxtaposing human rights and national security.
Naturally, the Shin Bet is not infallible. In many cases, it is hard to perform real-time oversight, and this can only be imposed after the fact. We must remember that a person who never makes a mistake has never ventured anything, but there is a long way between that and the assumption that the Shin Bet can “get away with anything.”
Before resuming the chorus of criticism at individuals who work day and night for Israel’s security, at times placing themselves in mortal danger, their detractors would be wise to stop and consider their words. There is no room to level baseless accusations, which could prove demoralizing to the point of compromising national security.
@ Dandaman:
It’s astonishing to discover how few young Israelis know anything about Jabotinsky, other than his name (only because it’s used as a name for streets). Even fewer know about the Altalena. And I’ve never met any of them who’ve read Herzl’s “The Jewish State” or “Altneuland”.
@ Dandaman:
I think a lot of people who comment here agree with you. It’s difficult to keep up with all the threads, comments, counter-comments, counter-counter comments.
If you participate here long enough, you’ll find the same small group of people running a worn-out but still effective technique that derails serious discussion of things that are vital to our present and future survival. Agitprop 101. But don’t let them deter you. Keep speaking your mind.
@ Bear Klein:
We’d all like to have some facts, not just media events and suspicious video from almost-certainly-extreme-Leftist journalists.
You’ve made some weak disclaimers. Overall, your statements are mainly focused on protecting the Security establishment, and denigrating those who question what’s being presented as though it were incontrovertible truth.
Government, in general, should always be doubted, not trusted. This is even more true when it comes to the Security and Police echelons.
Watch Professor Strassmann’s video about partisan warfare in World War II and pay attention to his focus on ‘the bureaucratization of genocide’. Then compare the actions he describes to things that have been happening here for many, many years. If you can’t see a connection to what’s happening to a specific segment of Israeli society that causes you to be concerned… well, it’s just impossible to describe what such willful denial means.
Almost two centuries of documented psychological research has show us many important things. One of those important things concerns an individual’s ability to see what’s actually going on, as opposed to refusing to acknowledge actuality. The famous “rhinoceros in the room” (now most often called “elephant in the room”)… but back in the 60s when this metaphor was first being used, it was a rhino, not an elephant… substitute any animal, object, or person you wish. One writer called it “the fnords” and described the negative illusion (shutting out the feared idea or object) as “if you don’t see the fnord, it won’t eat you”. Today, way too many people are saying “if you don’t speak about murderous Islam it won’t harm you”.
@ Bear Klein:
You obviously didn’t read what I wrote, and went right in to your full-metal-jacket attack mode.
How very typical of a certain type of person with whom I’m all too familiar. One more item supporting the critical inference that you are, indeed, a product of a certain kind of ‘security’ training process… perhaps even an active apparatchik.
At the very least, you’ve made it abundantly clear that you know which side of the Israeli political-security establishment bread is buttered.
We’ve never really gotten rid of the Judenrat… it still operates, under the colour of law, and has control of the most important Ministries and bureaucratic extensions of the Socialist State of Israel.
Speaking metaphorically: Some day, Ben Gurion and Rabin’s “holy cannon” will be taken out, cleaned up, loaded, and used for a different, genuinely Holy purpose. Until then, we keep “walking between the raindrops”. Oh what a joy it is to be a dhimmi!
The issues we try to discuss in this forum don’t require anyone to be a professional. It does help if one has had at least a little training and experience. But it’s not required.
Those of us who live in Israel, and have been active in what’s laughingly called “Right Wing” politics see a different perspective than others. Merely quoting R’ Meir Kahane is enough to get one tagged as an extremist. And those of us who actually take seriously a very old history of believing that, at some point, the Malchut will be restored… we’re called all kinds of dirty names, all summed up in one word: “extremist”.
Fine. Taking the Shemona Esrei literally makes one an extremist. But so what? It doesn’t put the believer in the same category as Abbas, Hamas, or Amira Haas…. all either actively pursuing violence against Jews, or justifying that violence with mythology about oppression.
In one reply to Bear Klein I focused on his claim to be a highly trained professional. I went further to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that his level of training and experience is even higher than he’s indicated.
Perhaps I didn’t make it clear that I don’t question his claim… but do question his method of reasoning and the conclusions he’s reached as witnessed by his statements urging unquestioning obedience to whatever the Security Establishment says.
BK made a rather weak disclaimer, something to the effect of “I don’t have all the facts and don’t make a judgment”… but went right back to his ‘code of silence’ and ‘circle the wagons’ rhetoric that, in itself, lends credence to his claim to be a highly trained security professional (or semi-professional.
I, too, don’t have facts; but I’m willing to stick with my original position… that BK is an even bigger macher than he admits.
Compare BK’s defensive, “let’s all be obedient to the authorities” rhetoric to the following comment from someone I know for certain is a professional. I’ve anonymized his comment that appeared on a discussion list where active and retired security professionals make use of OSINT while deploying the techniques they learned from their training and experience.
Keep getting a message that “I’ve already said that”. So where is the message I already said?
So much for Israel’s precious demokracy. Guilty until proven innocent! Time to remember the Altalena, its antecedents and its legacy. Dear Jabotinsky, why did you leave us so soon?
Blue is a fine color Bibi was heard saying.
[Come to Israel: Where fascism and socialism live side-by-side in perfect harmony.
Bear in mind as you read this hysterical rant from Israel’s secret police that after weeks of solitary confinement and torture the Shin Bet has not produced an ounce of evidence against these “suspected” young Jewish terrorists. If they had, the Shabak would have charged them by now. But who knows? A few more turns of the screw and they might eventually break these religious teenagers and finally get their man.
Remember too, that with Netanyahu, Yaalon and Jewish Home’s (not a joke) Bennett onboard, this is now official Israeli government policy and these so-called right-wing politicians own this brutality. Too bad for the kids. Because that means the rationale to continue this cruelty becomes even more compelling. Making this not so much an investigation, but going forward, an operation to save Shin Bet’s ass.
So much for Israel’s precious demokracy. Guilty until proven innocent! Time to remember the Altalena, its antecedents and its legacy. Dear Jabotinsky, why did you leave us so soon?
@ honeybee:
I’m fine thanks, how are you.. what happened to Yamit? Is he posting elsewhere now?
Bear Klein Said:
It is also possible that an elephant named Dumbo will suddenly fly out of my anus. An “educator” without any knowledge of LOGIC who participates in hysteria and red herrings. Even if the worst were true these rag tags are no threat compared to the existing threats where euros fund jew killers who daily slaughter jews with the collusion of Israeli foreign paid moles.
BB, yaalon and shin bet succeeded in planting their red herring that rag tag jews are a danger rather than the daily orchestrated Jew killing incited by the PA and fatah.
a pure crock of crap!
so now we have a GOI who incarcerates and tortures Jews with the justification that they want a Jewish king rather than the current folk who allow more muslim abuse of Jews than in France, or for hating those who teach their children to kill Jewish children, or for hating those who intentionally kill Jewish children. Hatred is not a justification to incarcerate or torture. Wanting to see dead enemies is not a justification for incarceration or torture of Jews. A person is allowed to hate but when you tell lies to the world in order to destroy Jews there is the real danger.. which is why anti semitic libels should be a capital crime in Israel.
what we have here is one more failure to provide evidence of the allegations of a crime committed by accused and instead a dishonest attempt to incite again against Jewish dissenters. Therefore, any future attempt to provide fabricated evidence must be carefully vetted because this video is pathetic if it purports to be EVIDENCE OF ANYTHING RELEVANT!!
What we have with innuendos of documents and conspiracies is a FRAUD! Still no evidence, any confessions will likely be “substantiated” and “corroborated” with false evidence.
Still we have no criticism by Jews of the orchestrated chorus of Rivlin, Yaalon, Erdan and BB when they accused settlers without evidence of arson rather than responsibly urging citizens to calmly await a PROPER investigation. Such unusual behavior is evidence of a FRAUD and/or incompetence.
Bear Klein Said:
when i was a sixth grader i signed documents joining the bagel lancers… c’mon bear we all know there is no real danger or threat to the state from these rag tags and hatred and wanting dead pals is no crime because the state allows daily arab hatred and expressions for dead Jews. Erekat and Abbas make child murderers heroes. Abbas and erekat should be assasinated, they are inciters, they control terrorists they cause dead Jews.
Bear Klein Said:
What severe deeds? I saw no violent “deeds” in the video….
Now the GOI hopes for Jewish mea culpas, an orgy of guilt over a video which shows nothing other that some dancing Jews who might be expressing hatred and celebrating the death of their enemies. the pals do this daily. One may want to condemn their desires but no crime is shown. Did the GOI become a moral arbiter of Jewish thoughts… is Shin Bet hoping for Jewish guilt feelings over non crimes by Jews to get them all off the hook of the crimes the leadership commited?
Bear Klein Said:
Is hatred a crime? Is she electing herself to justify false allegations and torture over expressions of hatred. Hatred for a collective who daily seeks your murder is sensible. Is she the chief rabbi doling out morals?
Bear Klein Said:
more inuendo and incitement without proof… typical intelligence service disinfo. What documents, what do they say? Are they seriously trying to say that those ragtags… whatever documents they sign are the serious threat to the state of Israel which they submit to justify their incarceration and torture… is hatred of the enemy a crime? If so its time to round up 95% of arabs in the areas controlled by Israel…. where is rivlin when he is not seeking to help the arabs who daily seek dead jews?
Bear Klein Said:
this woman is a NUTCASE! Whether they seek to harm Israel or not is not evidence of a crime.. their capability and actual physical engagement in the crimes is what counts. If that were so then most of the left and arabs should be incarcerated and executed for colluding with foreigners to destroy the Jewish homeland. A few fringe haters, which is still unproven, is not evidence of a crime, a meaningful conspiracy or a credible threat….. which is what is needed to justify the GOI incarceration and torture. So instead of providing evidence we get instead more incitement to discredit critics.
The messenger is shot for reporting bad behavior. This is Proof of the crime interesting logic (not).
For me this video is further evidence of a dishonest agenda. The video does exactly what the initial declarations of rivlin, erdan, Yaalon and BB did when they accused settlers with no evidence at Duma. They succeeded in their attempts to demonize settlers because the leaders said so. This video does the same, it demonizes settlers and Jewish nationalists without showing any evidence of any crime. It is typical of yellow journalism and disinformation… it is typical of medieval blood libel tactics….. it intentionally pretends to give proof but only incites. it is lying manipulation designed to discredit dissenters, critics and settlers….. it shows that they have no relevant evidence worthy even of indictment. Generally, the type of folks who engage in such activity cannot be taken at face value… similar to those who invented the Jenin massacre and the Al Dura canard… similar to the BDS crowd who incites the same.
Bear Klein Said:
where is anything proven different? Is this video and the writer purporting that this ludicrous video is evidence of SOMETHING?
WHAT IS THIS VIDEO PURPORTING TO BE EVIDENCE OF??????
Bear Klein Said:
the incitement is nowhere near the daily incitement in mosques and arab mobs. I can not even discern the incitement as there are only a few hebrew words at the beginning of the video which can be ascribed to the dancers as opposed to the narrative. But evne if they shouted for dead pals why should there be an orgy of jewish mea culpa when daily the arabs and the world shouts for dead jews. Why cant Jews hate, why is it more sickening? When arabs do it rivlin wants to help them more.
Bear Klein Said:
what rubbish, no violence against anyone is shown in the video at the wedding and the subsequent enactment appears to be staged, not a real beating but an enactment. this video is a proof of NOTHING and anyone pretending it proves a crime or justifies the GOI and shin bet crime of incitement and torture is dishonest!!!
moderation?
Bear Klein Said:
Pot, kettle,black. He had no problem not waiting for a proper fair investigation before HE incited worldwide murder of Jews by HIM choosing to incite a lynch mob against the settler community rather than advising, as the President of Israel, to calmly wait for the results of an IMPARTIAL investigation and the court verdicts. What kind of President of a nation fingers a collective class for a crime without evidence… we still see no evidence of a Jew committing the crime.. but we do see more incitement through this canard of a video purporting to prove something, but what does it prove…. that there are Jews who can hate? Did rivlin incite agianst the pal collective when they commit daily their incitements of hate and support of terror to slaughter Jewish children? NO, Rivlin instead says that more needs to be done to help the collective who teach their children in their schools and mosques that Jews are the sons of apes and pigs.
Bear Klein Said:
but is ok to slander Jewish nationalists and settlers with spurious videos which show no crime but is used to create disgust among Jews for other jews and forget about the daily slaughter of Jews by arabs and euros.
Bear Klein Said:
See how they come up with their psychological manipulations? What is a “extremist” and does this video prove that they are extremeists? I did not see a picture of the baby in the hands of someone stabbing the baby.. I saw a separate picture provided by the narrator which might not have been the same effigy being stabbed. NO crime is being committed but those who relaeased the video are alleging they commited a crime which is a danger to the state of Israel. I see no evidence in the video of a danger to the state.. I see rag tags dancing, perhaps with hate, I cant tell, but that proves no connection to any crime. The fact that they release this video masquerading as evidence to justify their torture and allegations of a crime demonstrates their dishonesty.
@ bernard ross:
You are so correct. How are you these days Yankee Boy !!!!!!!
Come to Israel: Where fascism and socialism live side-by-side in perfect harmony.
Bear in mind as you read this hysterical rant from Israel’s secret police that after weeks of solitary confinement and torture the Shin Bet has not produced an ounce of evidence against these “suspected” young Jewish terrorists. If they had, the Shabak would have charged them by now. But who knows? A few more turns of the screw and they might eventually break these religious teenagers and finally get their man.
Remember too, that with Netanyahu, Yaalon and Jewish Home’s (not a joke) Bennett onboard, this is now official Israeli government policy and these so-called right-wing politicians own this brutality. Too bad for the kids. Because that means the rationale to continue this cruelty becomes even more compelling. Making this not so much an investigation, but going forward, an operation to save Shin Bet’s ass.
So much for Israel’s precious demokracy. Guilty until proven innocent! Time to remember the Altalena, its antecedents and its legacy. Dear Jabotinsky, why did you leave us so soon?
the incitement of disgust against jews caused by this video will travel the world and cause more dead Jews just like the lynch mob incitement of rivlin, Yaalon, BB and Erdan has caused the revenge burnings and daily stabbings of Jews today…. for which they appear to have no solutions.
Strange how they have no solutions to arab terror and claim it is isolated individual terror when at the same time all the fatah leaders, erekat and Abbas justify the stabbings. An internationally funded terror org which daily encourages the slaughter of Jews is compared to a bunch of rag tag young Jews dancing.
Every day arab mobs dance when they slaughter Jewish children but fool Jews commiserate over this video. Every basic amateur psychologist is aware of the long term effects of abuse on the victim. the victims are the Jews.. the perpetrators of the abuse are the arabs. for decades they keep commiting and encouraging terror and slaughter to this very day. It is only natural that deep hatred would grow against the despicable collective whose leaders, mosques and schools demonize Jews and Israel. Whats not to hate, they should be hated.. not for their genes but for their repeated behavior. Even their toddlers call for dead Jews on their TV. How is it possible not to hate such folk. There was a time when I did not hate them but the more facts I learned about their despicable MO the more I hated the collective behavior. There is only so much time and energy and all my tears are for Jews, none ever for Jew killers.
I am not “deeply disturbed” about Jews hating the pal collective or wishing them dead…. it is the expected outgrowth of years of abuse and demonization and the Israeli left, europe are all collaborators in that lying abuse. It is too late to wail and whine about incitement when the perpetrators of the incitement become the victims of their own incitement.
Bear Klein Said:
The Shin Bet lied, and proved themselves politically motivated when they stated that the jews were “anti zionist” extremeists.
The GOI severely hindered their credibility when its leaders (Rivlin, Yaalon, BB and Erdan) veered from a globally accepted standard of leadership in such circumstances which advises calm and waiting for results of investigation.
The GOI and investigative services seriously hindered their credibility when they failed to get the Duma webcams before they were wiped clean by the Duma arabs while they were chasing phantom Jews in the first 2 days.
The GOI severely hindered their credibility when they immediately came up with their Jew incarceration law using their allegations of terror jews as their basis which has still not been corroborated.
The GOI severely hindered their credibility when instead of submitting one shred of evidence they submitted this ludicrous irrelevant video which show NO crime but does incite disgust against Jews. Those interested in more than inciting propaganda would have show a piece of actual evidence… the video is only incitement… but NO evidence of anything relevant to the commission of ANY crime!!!!!!!
WB Said:
What doe WB represent? Woefully Befuddled?
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q262/pattyrivera/KillerBeeLogo.jpg
WB Said:
Its leading to an agenda to get the majority of israelis to overlook the daily slaughter of Jews and instead focus on a red herring. Its leading to get the majority of Jews to abandon YS through a demonization campaign of settlers. Instead of bringing the real terrorists who want to destroy Israel, like abbbas and erekat and most muslim imams, to detention and execution they chase teenagers who hate those who slaughter Jews daily.
WB Said:
The gov has submitted as “evidence” a video whose only value is to further demonize the same collective they demonize at the outset. Obviously, they contine to shower folks with irrelevant red herrings which would have no value in a court of law, would be thrown out, ONLY for the purpose of discrediting and defaming Jews. We have yet to see one shred of evidence of any one person committing any crime.
All they are saying is that these Jews hate the Jew killers so they must have committed the arson. They continue with their agenda to get the Israeli population to hate the settlers. Such behavior only makes it more obvious that the GOI leadership and the Shin Bet is GUILTY!
@ WB:
You are so blinded in your approach you make assumptions about my background which are not even close because apparently this makes it more comfortable for you to pronounce me wrong as I could not be objective. That is actually what I am trying to get you to do be objective.
You are assuming that the Shin Bet is lying and the government is lying. I am open to the possibility that they are lying or perhaps they are correct.
I assume you will believe what you believe no matter what facts come to light? I am waiting for the facts.
I am leary of Administrative detention and I want to know what has happened. I am not willing to without convincing evidence to pronounce the government guilty. The same goes for those in detention.
Bear Klein Said:
if you are highly trained then please explain why national leaders(yaalon,bb,erdan,rivlin) came out at day one without any evidence that a court would even accept for an indictment and immediately demonize Jews? The only reason I can see is the fact of their apparently ready plan to implement their Jewish incarceration law, do you have a reasonable alternate explanation for their unusual reaction unbefitting of leadership of a nation? I have never seen such behavior by responsible national leaders in modern times. The global standard of leadership in such circumstances is to advise calm, not to jump to conclusions, to wait for an investigation and the court process. what is YOUR explanation for why they incited a lynch mob without evidence.
if you are highly trained then please analyse the video from the perspective of one trained to look for a fake. All highly trained personel must take such a perspective in order to see if the video is credible or manipulated. Did you separate the actual video from the narrative. Also, what is the reason for including the section at the end which appears to simple be an acting out rather than an actual beating?
WB Said:
I completely agree.
First, what are we seeing that cannot be manipulated by photoshop? We see young men dancing with weapons and singing.. so what?
We are told that a photo is being stabbed but we cannot see the photo being stabbed… so what?
We are shown a separate photo and told to believe that stabbing photo is a crime… that the folks at the wedding must have burned a baby. Dont the arabs always give out sweets and dance when they murder jewish children… does shin bet go in and round them up for torture and detention.
there is nothing in the video other than the word of the same players to conclude that there is any crime or any conspiracy.
What are the words being sung in hebrew at the beginning by the dancers? Not what the narrators are alleging?
Even if this easily fabricated evidence is true.. so what?
Is it a crime for Jews to hate the pal collective… no, it should be expected that the decades long victim of an entire collective slaughter of Jews should hate the pals. Their leaders, their mosques, their schools all declare the hatred of Jews, the intention to destroy Jews and then they serially and chronically follow through on their hatred by repeated, serial, chronic, intentional murder of Jewish civilians and their children. Of course, such people should be hated.
What is much more deeply disturbing to me is the way the GOI has trotted out this irrelevant video as simply one more example geared to demonize the collective of Jewish settlers without evidence of any crime in the same way that Rivlin, Yaalon, BB and Erdan demonized and accused of murder without evidence, indictment or trial. Rivlin complains of incitement but HE is the grand guilty party of incitement when he whipped up a lynch mob.
Rivlin, yaalon, bb and erdan have given no apology or explanation for their initial trying and execution by lynch mob of jews. Instead they submit more NON evidence of any crime to incite even more against Jews.
The video is no evidence of any crime.. the crime is that the video is submitted by the gov in order to cover their own crime of incitement and lynching. The GOI has just started another lynch mob to cover their first lynching. They want the public to forget about their crimes, to forget about the daily slaughter of Jews by pretending that some Jews dancing and maybe hating are a greater danger than the daily slaughter and terror incited and celebrated by the pal collective
honeybee Said:
ANAK! Does this mean that you’re the Queen Bee of Bear’s sting swarm? 🙂
“…the human sense of objectivity may sometimes be overpowered by preconception, which includes biases arising from external cues and prior knowledge.”
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/12/151222113001.htm
“Flowers for Algernon”?
https://youtu.be/pxwja4BH5hk
Bear Klein Said:
WB Said:
Bear is highly trained attack bear:
http://blogimages.seniorennet.be/brompot/P9-8ed83923396d66f3ff234815e4e4fce0.jpg
Don’t mess with Bear or you sill be stung !!!!
@ Bear Klein:
What, specifically, do you disagree with? The simple reading of your comment is that you disagree with those who question the hysterical official narrative.
As a ‘highly trained and educated in Criminal and security matters’ person, do you perhaps identify so much with the system that gave you your credentials that you’re not capable of objectivity?
We’ve seen too many Star Chamber proceedings, secret evidence, and strident rhetoric against a specific (and actually statistically significant demographic). Now, there’s a metastasizing campaign against anyone who dares question the claims by those who conceal evidence on the questionable grounds that it’s a matter of “State Security”. There’s no concern about the strong allegations without any evidence by the pious, self-righteous Security Services and those who’re ‘circling the wagons’ in a typical ‘code of silence’ response.
Something terrible is happening in all of this… and it’s distracting us from paying attention to the actual terrorist individuals and orgs, with an astonishing amount of multi-sourced, prima facia evidence of what they’ve done in the past and will continuing doing in the future.
Let’s assume you’re understating your actual level and really are the trained and experienced person you say you are. You ought to be more concerned about how this is playing out than most others.
Let’s also assume worked in some type f police, enforcement, or investigative job. Then you know very well why some are increasingly alarmed by what we hear from the Security authorities who literally have our lives in their hands.
Something is very wrong with how all of this is being framed, and how some very old, well-known, well-documented, and deeply disturbing speech and behavior is permeating what we’re seeing and hearing from frantic, strident apologists.
Habeas Corpus, Presumption of Innocence, and Due Process are NOT basic principles that guide law here.
If they had a case, they would’ve already filed it. What’s happening looks much more like a macabre charade than the fact-based, well-reasoned concerns of professionals.
WHERE IS THIS LEADING?
@ WB: I disagree with you and I am highly trained and educated in Criminal and security matters.
I say I do not know because I do not not know the evidence first hand as to guilt of suspects or the Shin Bet.
So I am taking an open minded approach. I actually have posted many articles not because I am taking them as facts but as information to be considered in order to have people be open minded on these very emotional and explosive events and occurrences. Israel does not have juries but if it did I wonder how many people could say they could actually provide either side if charged a fair trial.
I would like to have investigated what the Shin Bet is allowed to do legally and what they have done. This should not be an investigation by the press or the lawyer or families public statements. These are also not unbiased. Which also does not mean they are not true or partially true or complete and utter lies.
@ Bear Klein:
It’s reasonable for even a marginally-trained and barely-experienced person to be suspicious of this “evidence”.
“Champagne” carried out a strictly-legal, well-funded campaign, getting young Jews to do and say exactly such things, and even worse. Why is he walking around, spending taxpayer money, and not sitting in a solitary confinement cell like the naive young man he incited to murder? How can anyone who knows even the most basic things about law and justice be silent as this madness continues?
The real anarchists are in key positions of the Security, Legal, Educational, and Social Worker establishment, not in small groups of young Jews who take seriously the ideas that motivated so many of our ancestors to exert so much effort to preserve traditional Torah-based culture. Where is all of this leading?
When things come out in the light of day, will people have an open mind? Or will it not matter because minds are already made in-spite of facts to be seen?
The primary argument we’re hearing repeated like a Coca Cola commercial is that everything is being done strictly according to the law. Now, this is the most chilling and alarming statement that could ever be made by individuals who claim to be interested in protecting and defending the ‘Jewish State’.
Listen to what Dr. Paul Strassman has to say about what happens when a government does everything strictly according to the law, and that government’s subjects (we can’t really call them citizens) make every effort to comply with the law and demonstrate their obedience to the authorities (who are beyond reproach).
https://youtu.be/r4m0wmCt42I
Hacohen’s article, and the bizarre statements by Bennett, Shaked, and way too many others, only add to our concern. A very real threat is posed by a relatively small, but immensely powerful ‘section’ of Shabak — the “Jewish Section” that incites, libels, slanders, entraps people with political and social views threatening to the Marxist-dominated Oligarchy. That Oligarchy includes the “Right Wing” political theatre of Netanhahu (aptly descibed as ‘a sheep in wolf’s clothing’).
Special laws were enacted to allow the Jewish Section to treat a profiled segment of Israeli society as though they were not just as much a threat as the Islamic-inspired (though sometimes publicly non-religious) organizations (military and social) that wage literal war on Jews and the not-quite-really-Jewish State of Israel.
In a country where it’s a serious offense to criticize a public official, and where graffiti is treated as an act of terrorism, we can’t keep pretending we live in anything other than a jack-leg dictatorship. “The Authorities” are actually afraid that this incident will open the can of worms that’s been breeding since long before Ben Gurion ordered Rabin to use “the holy cannon” against the Altalena, and to assassinate Begin.
It’s no coincidence that all this hysteria and scrambling to defend the Jewish Section is coming at the same time as escalated direct-action terror attacks throughout the country, and the frantic efforts to stop legal action against the NGOs and individuals who facilitate terrorists and terrorist organizations.
It should not be very difficult to detect physical torture if the “victims” have access (within days or even couple of weeks) to medical experts.
This was simply a ham-handed shabak intelligence operation. None of the accused will be found guilty of any of the Duma attacks because there is no usable evidence. But shabak did manage to gather all the information that Bibi needed sbout his organized opposition.
These kids are being tortured, professor. That you claim it’s within the law is the problem.
The problem, Mister Hayom, is that the allegations you deride are entirely consistent with the obscene anti-Jewish rhetoric of the Netanyahu regime and are therefore highly plausible. Netanyahu has prioritized fighting “Jewish extremists” instead of Muslim terrorists, a policy of debased insanity that inevitably led to this scandal.
In Japan, when an official loses face he is expected to kill himself. Netanyahu has thoroughly disgraced himself, but he is far more likely to kill Israel.
not baseless accusations… the investigation was compromised at the outset by the leadership lynch mob and their incompetence and failure to follow through and investigate the duma arabs.
National unity was compromised by the lynch mob demonization of Jews and jewish settlers by the left wing foreign moles decades of baseless libels and by the leaderships current demonization of settlers before allowing a normal investigation to proceed.
those who have been compromising Jewish national unity for decades, those who have been inciting against settlers and Jewish rights, spreading lies throughout the globe… those who demonize and allow evidence to be destroyed, cannot now claim the hypocritical mantle of national unity… that mantle was long ago destroyed by the cancerous foreign moles.
Ted Belman Said:
This is the advice which Yaalon,Erdan, BB and Rivlin should have followed at the outset of the investigation and the arab leads followed. At this point I would not trust anything from those who are not about to incriminate their own negligence or incompetence.
Ted Belman Said:
There is a great deal of evidence regarding torture and confessions… intelligence services employ it to convice suspects themselves of their crimes…. it is a form of brainwashing. these methods are only to be used in a war against the enemy collective and not against ones own population. there is no equality between those muslim arabs on the west bank, where over 90% teach their children that Jews are sons of apes and pigs, and the Jews who are the object of their terror. Intelligence services can easily create confessions and evidence… therefore once the actors are proven political pawns and tell lies then nothing from their mouths becomes believable.
Chaim Shine writes in ISRAEL HAYOM:\
He is so wrong to write this. The issue is not whether the suspects are guilty or not but whether the Shin Bet should have the right to torture suspects who are presumed innocent.
He is suggesting that the Shin bet should throw the dice and use torture in the belief that the suspects are guilty and their use of torture will be vindicated. No they can’t throw the dice and no, if the suspects are found guilty, such measures will not be vindicated or made legal or moral after the fact..