T. Belman. (May 23/17) I updated this post because Netanyahu’s proposal set out in it seems to be the blueprint. Abbas is now offering 6.5% of the territories which means Israel gets to keep Ariel, Maaleh Adumin and Gush Etzion. Arutz Sheva reported yesterday,
“According to the Times of Israel report, Olmert had offered to compensate the Arabs with Israeli land equivalent to 5.8 percent of Judea and Samaria, along with a link to the Gaza Strip. The rejected offer also included placing Jerusalem’s Old City under international control.
“This time however, Jerusalem, the most controversial aspect of previous discussions, is not mentioned in the proposal that Abbas is allegedly meant to discuss with Trump during his visit.”
Trump is well aware of how amenable Netanyahu is for such a deal and that thus the the gap is not huge but negotiable. There is no reason why the deal can’t allow the IDF to stay in the territories permanently.I believe that the government of Israel under PM Netanyahu would accept such a deal providing we keep Jerusalem.
T. Belman. (Feb 20/17) It is this deal in all probability, that Netanyahu and Trump want to build upon. So far we haven’t heard what is to happen with the settlements outside the blocs. Remember Bibi suggested that they remain in the Arab state and that the inhabitants can come back to Israel when they want. Remember also that Bibi told Kerry that he was prepared to these parameters in 2014 also.
In Aqaba meet last Feb. with Kerry, Sissi and King Abduallh, PM reportedly presented five-point plan to launch regional initiative aimed at reviving peace talks with Palestinians
BY RAOUL WOOTLIFF AND STUART WINER, TOI
{First posted Feb 20/17)
At a secret summit with Arab leaders on a regional peace push last year, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu reportedly presented a five-point plan that included an offer to freeze construction in areas outside the settlements blocs in the West Bank.
According to a report early Monday in the Haaretz daily, which first broke the story of the meeting with then-US Secretary of State John Kerry, Egyptian President Abdel-Fattah el-Sissi and Jordan’s King Abdullah, on February 21, 2016, Netanyahu asked in exchange for the freeze that the US recognize construction and expansion within the large settlement blocs, areas which are expected to remain part of Israel in any peace agreement with the Palestinians.
According to a US official and an Israeli source familiar with the plan cited by Haaretz, the prime minister detailed five steps Israel could take to promote a regional peace initiative aimed at reviving peace talks with the Palestinians, and also asked for US assurances on a number of issues.
The plan, according to the two sources, included:
1. The approval of large-scale Palestinian construction and advancement of economic initiaves in Area C in the West Bank, where Israel maintains security control, the approval of infrastructuve projects in the Gaza Strip, closer coordination with the Palestinian Authority, including allowing entry of weapons needed by its security forces.
2. Positive public references by the Israeli goverment to the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative, also known as the Saudi initiative, including a willingness to negotiate the components with Arab states.
3. The support and active participation of Arab states in a regional peace summit, including dispatching senior officials from Saudi Arabia , the UAE and other Sunni states to a public gathering attended by Netanyahu.
4. Practical American recognition of construction in the settlements blocs, in exchange for a freeze outside those areas.
5. A guarantee by the then-Obama administration to bloc any moves against Israel at the United Nations, including the use of its veto power at the Security Council.
Earlier Sunday, Netanyahu confirmed that he attended the secret summit in Aqaba but said he and not Kerry was the initiator of the meeting.
According to Haaretz, Kerry initiated the summit after complex bargaining with both Israel’s regional neighbors and its internal political players. Details of the proposal, ultimately rejected by Netanyahu, and the secret meeting came from former senior officials in the Obama administration who asked to remain anonymous.
The revelations came days after Netanyahu called for such an initiative at his first meeting with US President Donald Trump.
In public comments Sunday ahead of the weekly cabinet meeting, Netanyahu did not mention the report on the regional initiative, but said he and the president agreed on the need for regional partners to be involved in any possible future negotiations.
“We see the possibility of trying to provide a basis for the growing regional interests that are forming between Israel, the US and countries of the region both to rebuff Iran and to develop other opportunities and normalization,” Netanyahu said. “In the end we hope to achieve peace. This is a fundamental change and, I would say, has accompanied all of our discussions and has formed the infrastructure of all the agreements between us.”
Despite the presence of two key tenets that Netanyahu has repeatedly declared as imperative to any potential peace accord — recognition of Israel as a Jewish state and cooperation with regional Arab nations — the prime minister is said to have rejected the Aqaba proposal, saying he would not be able to get approval from his hawkish coalition.
Following the Haaretz report, lawmakers from both sides of the political spectrum on Sunday criticized Netanyahu either for not pursuing the chance for peace, or for going down the two-state track in the first place.
Opposition leader Isaac Herzog, who heads the Zionist Union faction, criticized Netanyahu, writing on his Twitter account that “history will definitely judge the magnitude of the opportunity as well as the magnitude of what was missed.”
Public Security Minister Gilad Erdan (Likud) tweeted that Netanyahu “was right when he raised reservations to the ‘Arab initiative’ in the Obama-Kerry era (if there was one). Why would Israel enter discussions on the basis of the ’67 lines?” Erdan asked. “And with Kerry as the initiator and mediator? To our sorrow, Kerry did not display a deep understanding of the region and of the Israeli interest (even if his intentions were good). The words ‘regional initiative’ do not mandate automatic agreement by Israel to every demand and condition.”
Jewish home lawmaker MK Bezalel Smotrich tweeted that his pro-settlement Jewish Home party, which opposes the two-state solution, will continue to “safeguard the State of Israel and Zionism and prevent political adventurism.”
Zionist Union MK Omer Bar-Lev, referring to the recently passed Regulation Law that enables the legalization of unauthorized settler outposts built on privately held Palestinian land, wrote that the prime minister was hiding behind the excuse of a lack of sufficient coalition support, noting that “he has a coalition for an anti-constitutional law, but can’t proffer one as a response for a regional initiative,” Haaretz reported.
Head of the dovish Meretz party MK Zehava Galon tweeted that Netanyahu has demonstrated that ending the conflict and recognition of Israel as a Jewish state are not what really interests the prime minister.
“The goal is always the same: to buy time,” she wrote. “The problem has always been Netanyahu, not the lack of opportunities” to make peace.
Immediately after the February 2016 summit meeting, Netanyahu reportedly called opposition leader Herzog to update him on the talks in an attempt to persuade Herzog to join to coalition. That conversation developed into weeks of talks between Netanyahu’s Likud party and Herzog’s Zionist Union.
Despite intense efforts by an alliance of foreign leaders to secure a national unity government, talks fell apart when it was revealed that the right-wing party Yisrael Beytenu would join the governing coalition, with its leader, Avigdor Liberman, taking the Defense Ministry portfolio.
Last week, at a joint news conference with Trump, Netanyahu said some Arab countries see Israel “increasingly as an ally,” suggesting they are driven by concern over Iranian expansionism and the spread of Islamic militancy. “This change in our region creates an unprecedented opportunity to strengthen security and advance peace,” he said in urging Trump to “seize this moment together.”
AP and Times of Israel staff contributed to this report.
@ Bear Klein:
http://www.timesofisrael.com/us-said-to-be-pushing-israel-to-transfer-parts-of-west-bank-to-pa/Bear Klein Said:
Hi , I should have use the future tense ; ” shall we keep – in case of deal -the ridges running more or less around the road 60 ? ”
Give a look at http://www.marklangfan.com
the topographical maps are worth a thousand speeches.
@ Philippe:So, if it’s vital, than why are you asking if it should still be kept running?
Hi Sebastian, road 60 is the south to north of central israel axe , connect Beersheba to Hebron, then up to Jerusalem then up to Ofra , up to Jenin and up to Lower Galilee. It runs more or less along the hills crest of central Israel, at a median height of 600 m but reach 900m in some points; It a a vital ridge to allow radars surveillance of the whole Mideast . See the http://www.marklangfan.com topographical maps to get a sense of the physical importance .
When Abbas stops payments to Palestinian terrorists in Israeli prisoners, as has been demanded by Trump, Trump might put heat on Bibi.
Abbas can NOT do this as the Palestinians already do like him would chase him all the way to Russia. They love their terrorists.
Bibi made this point in DC with Trump and it stuck. Trump is not Obama. Yes he is talking to Abbas but until he abandons payments to terrorists Israel has no heat from Trump.
@ Sebastien Zorn:
There is NO DEAL. Israel made a couple of gestures.
Ted periodically picks up some article and writes Israel or Bibi have given the store away. This has happened for years. None of it has ever happened and will not this time.
The most that can realistically happen is some economic ventures to improve the PA economy. No Bibi will not work on a new paradigm like many of us want pushed (including much of the Likud and Bayit Yehudi. He is for the status quo and realistically for the time being that is where are staying.
A deal would require a partner on the Pal side who had the power and will to give up Jerusalem plus fictitious right of return, agree to Israeli security control (land, sea, air), agree to be demilitarized autonomous entity, recognize a Jewish State and end all grievances against Israel plus come up with an agreement on borders.
Did not happen and will happen. Trump is not pushing Israel to anything it does not want to do.
:
Any part of a “deal” which includes, as a performance action, restrictions (enforced) on Jews which prevent them from developing the lands of their ancient forbears, would be a deal structured to accrue benefits to the Israeli GOVERNMENT (and the crooked politicians, and their cronies, who dominate it), not to ordinary Jewish Israelis.
But what should we expect from politicians?
Philippe Said:
Everything else you said made perfect sense, but I don’t understand what this ridge is — not being there. Would you please explain?
Lot of wishful thinking ; grandiose D.Trump speech , saudi involvement suggesting ( merely suggesting ) that BOTH sides need to do some JOINT efforts. How do you interpret that word ” JOINT ” ? I will tell you the Arab version of ” joint effort ” : Israel has to relinquish land and PA-Arabs-Iran have to sign for the mere acceptance of Israel sacrifice . One side is allowed to shove and the other side ( israel ) politely obliges to be shoved . That ‘ s a JOINT movement , very harmonious indeed .
Now by ” sacrifice ” ; I see very clearly that the stupidity of a Land Link from Hebron-Yatir to Gaza will clear the path to Iranian shipment of heavy armament ( pieces by pieces – dual use machinery and components ) from the sea right to the heart of Israel .
The stupidity of the Gush Katif was patched by the army coup of Al-Sisi in Egypt, who quickly sealed most of the tunnels and fought against the hamas smugglers . But Egypt is not supposed to safegurad the maritime waters of ” independent palestine ” . Iran – Hamas will find the breach to the haert of Israel at sea
Also do we keep the ridge running along Road 60 ?
As long as Jews are not allowed to build and live safely and as equals in Arab areas, Arabs should not be allowed to do the same in Jewish areas such as all of the land granted to the Jewish Nation by Yassir Arafat:
http://www.danielpipes.org/247/imperial-israel-the-nile-to-euphrates-calumny
Bear Klein Said:
The block quotes are always malfunctioning.
‘Some settlements more equal than others’
EU Accused of ‘Colonialism’ for Funding Illegal Arab Settlements
NGO says European Union policy of meddling in Israel’s internal affairs a form of colonialism, as EU slammed for double standards.
Contact Editor Ari Soffer, 11/02/15 18:22
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“A leading Israeli NGO has slammed the European Union over its alleged role in financing illegal Arab settlements in Judea and Samaria, saying its direct attempts to “subvert” Israeli internal affairs amounted to a form of “colonialism.”
The remarks, made by the grassroots Im Tirzu organization, came in response to an article in the UK’s Daily Mail, which cited figures showing how the EU has channeled European taxpayers’ money into building some 400 homes and other buildings illegally in Area C of Judea and Samaria.
Under the 1993 Oslo Accords – signed not only by Israel and the Palestinian Authority, but by the EU itself among other parties – while the PA maintains full or partial control over Areas A and B of Judea-Samaria (“West Bank”), Israel maintains exclusive military and civilian authority over affairs in Area C, including planning and construction.
As such, the revelations – first exposed by the Regavim NGO and initially reported several months ago by Arutz Sheva – would amount to a flagrant breach of international law by the EU.
“It’s not enough that the European Union finances Israeli BDS organizations who work to erase Israel’s Jewish and democratic identity from within, but now the EU is openly fighting against (Israeli) communities by financing illegal building for Bedouins,” Im Tirzu’s CEO Matan Peleg said in a statement to Arutz Sheva.
“The European Union’s subversion of the internal affairs of the State of Israel is anti-democratic and colonialist in nature,” he charged, adding that such policies “also seriously harm the just and legitimate integration of the Bedouin sector into Israeli society” by encouraging law-breaking.
Jewish and pro-Israel groups within Europe have also been reacting to the report, with the UK’s Zionist Federation accusing the EU of hypocrisy and double-standards
“There has always been a distinct sense of ‘’all settlements are equal, but some are more equal than others’ about Europe’s attitude to Jewish communities in the West Bank,” said ZF Chairman Paul Charney.
“While the European Union has happily opened its coffers for the settlements in Turkish-occupied Cyprus, every new Israeli construction – even if it’s directly next to the Green Line – seems to have an EU-sanctioned Sword of Damocles hanging over it,” he added, calling for a review of the EU’s role in the conflict.
“This new, shocking revelation about European funding for illegal Palestinian settlements must be the catalyst for reviewing the unhelpful and unfair approach to a complex and sensitive issue.
“Instead of concerning itself with facts on the ground, the EU should be learning about facts from the ground – such as the widespread Palestinian culture of incitement and rejectionism.
“If the EU wants to fund construction, let it concentrate on building bridges between the Jewish and Arab communities, since coexistence is the only viable blueprint for peace.”
After repeated requests for comment, the EU’s embassy in Israel refused to directly confirm or deny the allegations, saying only that “the EU provides humanitarian assistance to communities in need in Area C in accordance with the humanitarian imperative.”
However the statement did add that “the EU is also committed to supporting the development of Area C for the benefit of Palestinian communities,” while insisting that “the EU consults with the local communities themselves and the Israeli authorities where necessary.”
The Regavim report illustrated how since 2009 European funds have been shifted away from passive diplomatic and financial aide to the PA, towards full, active cooperation with the PA’s efforts to create facts on the ground via unilateral illegal construction.
One of the major goals in these EU efforts is to advance illegal Arab building precisely in Area C which is under full Israeli control, and therefore to slowly cede the areas and create a continuity between Arab-held land between Har Hevron in southern Judea, through Yericho (Jericho) and up into Samaria, it said.
The report features a detailed mapping of hundreds of illegal Arab structures built by the EU in the corridor from Jerusalem out past Ma’ale Adumim to its east, known as E1 – precisely where the EU and other international bodies have threatened Israel with sanctions if it builds.
“Between the lines rises in full force the European hypocrisy, which accuses Israel of taking unilateral steps, even as it is sunk up to its neck in illegal and unilateral activities for the benefit of the Palestinian Authority,” Regavim stated, calling for the Israeli government to confront the issue head-on.
The EU’s activities, it stated, “are not legitimate. There is no avoiding a drastic change in terms of the Israeli government’s treatment of the issue.”
That change would come “firstly, by understanding and internalizing that the European Union is a problematic player that causes great damage to Israeli interests in Judea and Samaria,” Regavim said. “Secondly, the supervision and checks on the Union’s activities and organizations funded by it must be tightened.”
The group also recommended that Israel “take a series of steps – political, legal and publicity based.”
“The Israeli actions must be comprised of a combination of political actions through the accepted diplomatic channels, legal actions, intensive enforcement, and widening the publicity to create international legitimacy to end the illegitimate actions by the European Union,” concluded Regavim.'”
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/191223
The fakestinians, with eu backing, are endeavoring to change the demographic facts on the ground in Area C.
That’s the only concrete thing going on.
Otherwise, all I’m hearing is “Peace in our time.”
Neville Chamberlain’s Munich Speech by Clive Kandel
https://youtu.be/Sj7b7ufh9tQ
Best of Monty Python “The Killer Joke”
https://youtu.be/sdWGlJrG6sQ
Just heard a radio ad on the fox channel for a film about the 6 day war.
Pro-Israel. Inspiring trailer.
Today only in theaters.
“In Our Hands, The Battle for Jerusalem.”
http://inourhands1967.com/
any reward for giving away any part (cannot be called Holy Land until Christian churches, muzzy mosqs and pig farms are removed)of ISRAEL by anyone should be the peres/Sharon medal of dishonor. or a 6ft piece of real estate.
Again recycled falsehood. Israel has given NOTHING AWAY!!
Abbas was told in public by Trump that no peace can come without stopping terror funding and getting rid of terror. No mention of a two state solution.
No heat on Israel to do anything it does not want to do. It is a reversal of the Obama era.
Trump cares about stopping ISIS and Iran and wants the Arabs to help along with Israel. That plus showing the USA is back in the middle east is what the trip was about.
@ ArnoldHarris:
This is how the world thinks. Bizarre that we Jews, of all people, don’t understand this and are baffled at our inability to retain the moral high ground.
“1 Kings 3:16-28Contemporary English Version (CEV)
Solomon Makes a Difficult Decision
16 One day two women[a] came to King Solomon, 17 and one of them said:
Your Majesty, this woman and I live in the same house. Not long ago my baby was born at home, 18 and three days later her baby was born. Nobody else was there with us.
19 One night while we were all asleep, she rolled over on her baby, and he died. 20 Then while I was still asleep, she got up and took my son out of my bed. She put him in her bed, then she put her dead baby next to me.
21 In the morning when I got up to feed my son, I saw that he was dead. But when I looked at him in the light, I knew he wasn’t my son.
22 “No!” the other woman shouted. “He was your son. My baby is alive!”
“The dead baby is yours,” the first woman yelled. “Mine is alive!”
They argued back and forth in front of Solomon, 23 until finally he said, “Both of you say this live baby is yours. 24 Someone bring me a sword.”
A sword was brought, and Solomon ordered, 25 “Cut the baby in half! That way each of you can have part of him.”
26 “Please don’t kill my son,” the baby’s mother screamed. “Your Majesty, I love him very much, but give him to her. Just don’t kill him.”
The other woman shouted, “Go ahead and cut him in half. Then neither of us will have the baby.”
27 Solomon said, “Don’t kill the baby.” Then he pointed to the first woman, “She is his real mother. Give the baby to her.”
28 Everyone in Israel was amazed when they heard how Solomon had made his decision. They realized that God had given him wisdom to judge fairly.”
“Footnotes:
3.16 women: Hebrew “prostitutes.”
Contemporary English Version (CEV)
Copyright © 1995 by American Bible Society”
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Kings+3%3A16-28&version=CEV
You start giving away any Jewish national rights to any part 0f Eretz-Yisrael, and all of you are finished as an independent entidy. This doesn’t sound very pleasant, but I have learned over 83 years of life never to run away from the truth of any given situation.
Arnold Harris, Outspeaker
@ Ted Belman:
Which citizenship question? Jews born in Jerusalem being acknowledged as having been born in Israel or fakestinians in PA and Hamastan having Jordanian passports instead of seeking “statehood” with which to become hoodlums with a state or two?
Statehoodlums.
New word.
Humor:
“A piece of the Action” – Star Trek Season 2, episode 17 (1968)
“The crew of Enterprise struggles to cope with a planet of imitative people who have modeled their society on 1920’s gangsters.”
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0708412/
Kirk and Spock’s Historic Speech To the Hoodlum World:
“Star Trek TOS-R – A Piece Of The Action”
https://youtu.be/OMzFL2sQy24
The reasons I think the parameters (framework) have been agreed upon are as follows:
1. Trump would not be pursuing a deal if the parameters didn’t give him confidence that the gap was negotiable.
2. Bibi agreed to stupid “gestures” that he would never have agreed to without the anticipation of a deal.
3. Abbas would never have tripled his offer publicly it Trump hadn’t threatened him with dire consequences.
4.King Saltan has offered to help and even offered to start the normalization process. This is also unprecedented.
5. American has made it clear to Abbas that he can’t continue to fund and incite terror without dire consequences. In other words that the jig is up.
If the deal includes a permanent presence for the IDF like I envisage then Israelis where ever they live, will be just as safe as they are now. Also the Palestinians can drive one hour to the airport in Jordan and they don’t need an army.
And we don’t have to worry about the citizenship question.
As Netanyahu is there, still… betrayal is to be expected. The rest is red herring packaged to condition the mentally limited to buy into super Oslo and Mega disengagement so Netanyahu can get “his Nobel”.
xx
I had almost forgotten about the post I’d sent in above, but see that it was already months ago, in Feb.
If the Likud cave into this monstrosity , this obscenity of a decision by Netanyahu, without HUGE divisiveness, and possibly a splintered ruling coalition and new elections, I will be surprised. At least, if this deal goes through, Aliyah will be seriously affected, at least for those coming for ideological reasons….Those coming for safety would be few as they have the whole world to chose from. Israel will forever be only a splinter in the backside of the huge Arab world.
They keep saying that the deal doesn’t affect security, is only an economic deal. But what about OUR LAND. It belongs to the whole Jewish Nation not just to the State of Israel. Our most sacred shrines are, many of them right in YESHA, where the stinking Arab interlopers will be squatting for the next 1000 years.
Just today, I was emailed that a dear friend of mine from our teen years, had just passed away in Netanya. If she were still alive, this news would have killed her just as surely. It’s just too revolting for mere words. There may be big outcries from a variety of Sovereignty Groups and their followers. If it were France, they would storm the Knesset, drag Netanyahu out and hang him from the nearest lamppost. A La Lanterne….
This is a criminal act by Netanyahu,and he should be kicked out neck and crop for it, and finished in politics for ever. The craven Jew never leaves the ghetto mentally.
@ sabashimon:
A lot of heady, optimistic statements, pronouncements and promises. I’m terrified.
http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/big/0913.html
Dont be a dick netanyahu
A very interesting story related to this….
https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2017/02/19/obama-admin-and-allies-in-state-dept-intentionally-undermine-structural-trump-peace-alliance-with-leak-to-reuters-of-secret-2016-meeting/#more-128921
xxx
Regardless of the 35,000 different opinions etc. on the “peace” issue, it seems clear that under Netanyahu, there will be NO Israel in ALL the Holy Land, as we have the legal right to have. He talks too much about offering freezes outside the settlement blocs, too often to be anything but meant.
It would have been excusable when he was faced with antagonistic US and EU govts. but now, when Trump has just as much as said that whatever we do is OK with him, Netanyahu still talks about a truncated Israel as if his vista has never been more than that.
Jews will never be really free in their own Land until the Arabim are cleared out completely into Jordan as originally intended, or wherever the damned hell they want….except Israel.
Maybe they should all pile into Ireland, just the right size country, and I couldn’t wish that Jew-hating cess-pit a better fate.
Unity above all
Individually, we are one drop. Together, we are an ocean!
“We have flown the air like birds and swum the sea like fishes, but have yet to learn the simple act of walking the earth like brothers”
We must learn to respect each other no matter what the religious affiliation or secular. We are all Jews, one people and one nation.
We must look ahead and learn from past mistakes and not dwell on them and look for blame. We must be unified and with a cohesive effort, we will find a solution.
The one thing that is common to all of solutions is that they required — or at least relied on — the other party’s good will. But in the absence of such a will, every agreement you attempt to implement is doomed before it has even started. Therefore, we must look not at the agreements we can or can’t achieve with our neighbors, but rather look at the agreements that we can achieve with ourselves!
Our motto should be something like, “When the going gets tough, the good get going,” because this is all we need to do — lend a friendly hand to one another, no questions asked. As we have been told a million times before, this unity will unleash all the powers we need in order to resolve our problems: social, economic, and political — both internally and internationally.
“A Unified Israel is A Strong Israel”
YJ Draiman
According to Shapiro former USA Ambassador the deal failed because all sides could not agree to some things. Mostly the PA refused to go along as they were being into things they had no interest in doing.
So we do not know details and speculating on a deal that did not happen maybe interesting to some or the blame game for the left in Israel what does it really solve?