By Ted Belman
Many responsible analysts and thinkers, see no other solution, in the long run, than ethnic cleansing. Martin Sherman and Moishe Feiglin come to mind. Most Jews can’t stomach this solution so try to convince themselves that peace is around the corner.
I sometimes challenge Jews by asking how many Arabs are you willing to kill in order to survive. Or in other words how important is survival to you. For instance if you believe that Israel’s survival depends on ethnic cleansing are you willing to do it. For most such a solution is too draconian. Jews would rather take their chances by making concessions without limits then to engage in ethnic cleansing or brutal war. They are unwilling to come to the conclusion that such is necessary to survive as a Jewish state. I know, I am one of them. But that doesn’t deny the fact that rationally one or the other is necessary. Yamit brooks no compromise.
The indented comments below are by Curious American who comments here regularly. Israpundit’s resident scholar and bad ass guy takes C.R.s conventional wisdom on ethnic cleansing to task. I thought the exchange was worthy of being posted.
They are there in the areas you want. Many of them for over a millenia.
Myth!!! and If you can prove it do so, they can’t.
What do you propose to do with them?
What would you do with illegal trespassers and occupiers?
If I could I would ship them COD, with your home address on them. You deserve each other.
You cannot disenfranchise them from a vote in the government which rules over them without expecting a continued display of violence.
Another Urban Myth. Who says we can’t? Those who are allowed to remain in our Land will be resident aliens (strangers). No political rights. (Jewish Law) not American Law. I could name hundreds of examples as this principle is applied in other countries, especially Muslim ones.
Jews were forced out of Muslim lands where they were 2nd and 3rd class citizens. Israel took them all in and we paid for their integration and rehabilitation out of our own pocket. Time to complete the second phase of this population exchange.
Jews demand equal rights in the West; they cannot deny equal rights to Arabs in Judea and Samaria without looking like hypocrites.
What does that have to do with Israel a Middle Eastern country? Jews were never handed equal rights by any country including America. They fought for them and earned the right to them. Arabs do not respect individual rights, democracy or any non Arab and Muslim rights why demand
for them that which they give to no others. It’s they and you who are hypocritical.
You Americans of European decent wanted the Land of America but without the Native indigenous people.
What you did to the Indians can also be applied to the Arabs and if that is distasteful to you sensitive libido then give your land back to the original owners. Of course you won’t and that’s the hypocrisy of your POV.
I have no problem with Israel annexing its patrimony, but an equitable, just, and fair solution has to be tendered to the Arabs living in Judea and Samaria.
A fair solution is they leave for any other country and don’t say they can’t because the did leave and many are leaving every day. They can leave or be thrown out one way or another. They will leave if the right pressure is applied. dweller says I have no compassion, he’s wrong I do but not for enemies and Arabs even those O like are enemies and I would kill them without a second thought because they are enemies.
I know many here – if not all – will recommend ethnic cleansing – though some will pretty up the suggestion with floral language and loop de loop explanations where they will try to claim ethnic cleansing is not ethnic cleansing, convincing no one but their own sycophants.
It’s not ethnic cleansing to evict illegal usurpers, occupiers of Lands stolen from Jewish. Jews still hold the deeds to the Land of Israel and we never sold or relinquished them. Ethnic cleansing and Judenrein apply to Arab societies especially when it comes to Jews. The Jews were and are ethnically cleansed in every Arab and most Muslim countries including the Palis autonomous territories.
You are asking the the Jews to be more Christian then you Christians, again Hypocrisy.
But Israel has only 4 options
1) Enfranchise the Arabs and start the eventual secularization of the Jewish state.
2) Withdraw from Judea and Samaria, which would be a security nightmare.
3) Ethnic cleansing, which would get Israel tagged as a criminal state. Many here suggest this option, but if Israel really enacted such an arrangement, the consequences would be savage. Israel would not only be thrown out of the UN – which would bother no one here – but would be subject to world wide economic sanctions; and a total cut off of diplomatic relations, even with many countries in the West.
4) Or …. pay for the young Arabs to move to South America, with enough money to make it attractive
You have no intention of doing 1) or 2). I hope no one here seriously entertains 3). So what is the objection to 4)?
Option 1 and 2 No!!!
3 is OK with me.
4 is OK if you pay for them and convince them but we will not pay them. You can use all the the $500-$600 hundred millions you spend to convert Jews to pay Arabs to leave and then try to convert them where they wind up. Arabs owe Jewish Refugees much more than any legal property or assets of your friends the pali Arabs. Pay us first then we will see about any remuneration to the Palis.
Option 5 is to drive them out, and we can do it.
Option 6 is to kill all those who won’t leave peacefully.
Without invoking options #3,5 or 6 a lot of Jews will die.
catarin Said:
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah!
I’m still trying to determine who the resident scholar is. It’s not Michael, is it?
I like my formula: Peaceful Muslims can stay, the rest have to go, and Jews will have to determine who is who.
Arab Palestinian women are working hard to get into local politics. They want to undo a lot of the damage their men have done. These are not women who want to donate their sons to the cause. They want their children well educated and successful in the Western sense of the word. Before Arafat took over, Arab Palestinians were one of the most educated people in the Middle East. Arafat turned them into goons.
Jews must be able to live alone. Antisemitism is not their fault. And they must not be molested by Antisemitism. THAT is the central issue and all the rest such as the map on EuropeNews is just developing the argument. DRIVE OUT THE ARAB AND JEWISH ANTISEMITES!
The biggest failure of a population transfer was and is a move that never happened and is not likely to happen. That is the enormous failure of America Jews to emigrate to Israel. The numbers are woefully small. American
Jews will support Israel through donations, grants, visits and lobbying.But rarely do they do what Israel wants them to do.
EMIGRATE.
MAP and statistics – Ethnic cleansing of Jews in the Middle East
http://europenews.dk/en/node/62264
(Click on the image to enlarge it. The print is rather small)
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Also please check out other interesting Eurabia news items on this website.
It starts in the womb.
The struggle for territory (survival, dominance) starts in the womb.
Watch this short MRI video showing twins inside their mother’s womb struggling to expand or defend their individual territory.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FuJnO19mBw
Its good to see this topic finally being discussed as a potential alternative to all the failed paradigms. I think the term ethnic cleansing is not the appropriate term for what is proposed. Ethnic cleansing has a connotation of death and murder whereas proponents allude to transfer, deportation,population exchange, etc. The main problem is the acceptance of transfer by Jews. I think the point of departure should be the unequivocal repudiation of double standards. This is the prime symbol of anti semitism, the tactic used perennially to swindle Jews; overlooking it, allowing it to pass without reaction facilitates the continuity of anti semitism. When treaties are broken to Jews and allowed to pass the Jews is signalling the encouragement to maintain the standard and to keep swindling Jews. The second principle is that what has been done must be addressed and corrected and if possible by quid pro quo. The Jew needs to decide whether to continue to participate n the facilitation of anti semitic double standards. Following are examples of double standards which can and should be corrected:
1) The abrogation and breaches of trust and treaties by the international community and by individual guarantors(e.g.US,UN,EU,etc) in the form of san remo treaties,LON mandate, UN charter 80). The parties committed to “encourage the settlement of Jews west of the Jordan River. Jews must demand the fulfillment of these agreements, and they can be easily fulfilled by the relevant parties. If these agreements are unfulfilled then it is folly to expect the double standard of Israel fulfilling agreements.
2) The transfer of Jews from arab countries due to Israeli/arab wars. The arab refugees should be transferred because the only way the Jewish transfers cannot be considered as ethnic cleansing would be to consider it a population exchange which as yet remains uncompleted by the arabs. These Jewish transfers occurred after the Geneva conventions and, true to double standards, have not been addressed by the international community. Therefore there is the appearance of a precedent set for its legality and morality by the international community: or is it only legal and moral to transfer Jews? Jews cannot accept that this remains unaddressed and remains as a continuing double standard. Money is not a satisfactory compensation or restoration to Justice because the arab population remains as a hostile force in Israel whereas the Jews do not remain in arab lands. Only transfer will give the quid pro quo. Those who wish to resolve it with money when transfer can be accomplished by grants to arabs are maintaining a double standard that Jews can be transferred and given money for compensation but arabs cannot.
3-Apartheid-Apartheid has the goal of maintaining a single group. As it stands now ALL areas of the former Palestine mandate territory which are currently under arab control are maintained JEW FREE and not one word is said by the International community. If more than 90% of the Former mandate territory is JEW FREE then it is a double standard to expect that the crumbs left to the Jews should not be Arab/muslim free. Jews who try to defend this should merely direct the accuser to correct the apartheid arab/muslim areas first. Jews who accept this but not transfer are maintaining anti semitic double standards.
4) Religion – Muslim lands prohibit or severely limit the free practice of non official religions. This standard appears to be acceptable, legally and morally, by the UN/ICJ, etc. and therefore a legal precedent is set. Israel has the right to declare Islam to be a prohibited, or limited, religion(as in Saudi) in the state of Israel. This will encourage emigration and disband the muslim anti semitic practice in Israel.
5) Principle of Duress-there is a legal principle which concludes that agreements made under duress are not binding or enforceable. Israel has been forced under threat of sanctions,withholding supplies,etc to accept agreements and understandings inimical to its interests & in breach of agreements. It was even done during and after the holocaust. Agreements and understandings accomplished thusly, which contradict prior treaties(e.g. 242/181) must be repudiated under this principle. Or do Jews believe that this principle can only appy to non jews(double standard)?
Jews must ask themselves: when requested to give up their interests by the usual serial suspect swindlers whether they are accepting a double standard which encourages these swindlers to continue their cons and their anti semitism. When the accusing finger is pointed, just pint it back to the accuser.
The main swindler continues to be the european who is currently playing the sly role of indirect jew killer rather than reprising the usual role of direct jew killer. It does this by applying double standards, continuing its abrogation of agreements,supporting the current direct jew killers. One can recognize these swindlers with their convenient ignorance of the double standards they apply. Observe the sly hypocrite Ashton who feigns shock and hurt.
the phoenix Said:
Nope. That is the tried and true failure of separatist sectarian doing-nothing in the opposition.
In order to slay the dragon, you need to fight it in its lair.
There is a ton of support for strong nationalism within the Likud. The only thing that’s holding it back is the puss in the pore. Squeeze it out and the infection is gone.
Or you can sit, whine and stomp your feet with the nationalists, as they have been doing for 60 years. As Yamit likes to misattribute to Einstein: “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.”
Anything else rather than purging the rot at the top of the Likud is a waste of everything.
Annexation, with or without ethnic cleansing IS NOT ON ISRAEL’S AGENDA. There is no stomach her for such a drastic measure.
This is a real joke.We keep forgetting that Israel has a sponsor, backer, financier, military consultant, etc., etc called Uncle Sam. the U.S. will be the ultimate decision maker whether there is ethnic cleansing, annexation or any other map rearrangements. We may debate these matters until the cows come home but ultimately it means nothing. Sherman has his ideas but he speaks for himself and no one else.
@ Shy Guy:
Very recently, shy, I was straightened out by yamit and otter on the very same issue.
Feiglin, should get out of the Likud ASAP and join with the other nationalists.
I love his message and hope that it will be the winning one but also, I wish I had a bit more to go by than mere ‘hope’.
Shy Guy – if they go, who do you propose should replace them, why and what are their positions on these critical matters at issue, with the caveat that those you propose have a reasonable chance of being elected to lead?
Felix Quigley Said:
The Likud. The Likud’s Manhigut Yehudit faction. Netanyahu and his cronies have got to go.
You may not agree with me but at least I address the issue of a party. None of you on Israpundit do, or ever have!
The Jews are a nation. The “Palestinians” are not.
the Jews have fought for this nation. Remember a nation is always or usually linked to terra firma.
The Irish Catholics always in exile had a romantic attachment to the old hovel! And because the Irish were a nation the Irish did actually fight for it.
Only the Jews will fight.
Samson says do not underestimate the Arabs, but in this case that makes him caught in a contradiction because he also says the Palestinians are not a nation.
I disagree with Otter, I usually do.
Place your intentions as clearly as possible on your banner. Do not pussyfoot around. State clearly that Joan Peters was right in every respect.
The problem is leadership, Yamit is one, the Women in Green are just protesters, possible into the victim crap also.
Where is the party? i have asked that a million times.
Great topic Ted. My two bobs, for what its worth. I taunt the islamo-fascists on aljazeera that Israel has won the war. This was in response to an article on aljazeera, that the Jewish birthrate in the West bank is almost double or tripple the arab birthrate. They have lost. The war is over.
Israel could annex the whole of the West Bank now. Jews will still be in a 2/3ds majority in Israel and the demographics are on Israel’s side. So what’s the problem?
I just want to say that there are more than two sides to this issue. Talking about it is OK for this site because so many of us are not even Israelis, but not for Israeli conferences and media debates. Words have power and consequences. Raising this issue in other venues may scuttle a still weak pro-annexation movement before it’s born. ~~~ Israelis have allowed themselves to be so disempowered that they can’t even make their authorities expel 80,000 African infiltrators. More are trickling in, and if there was a major crisis in Africa with masses of genuine refugees, Israel does not have the legal tools to refuse them asylum. The system does not prevent Arab infiltration either.
There needs to be a plan with a logical progression of steps. (1) Educate. Organize. Fight against the PM’s and Supreme Court’s dictatorial powers. Put pressure on MKs to work on annexation and judicial reform. As Yamit indicated on another TB, “If Israel survives, it will be solely because of Jewish efforts and Jewish resources.” That means the people. Not the govt. (2) Annex the land – Postpone any decision on citizenship until it has been thoroughly studied and debated. Could take years. Maybe allow some individual applications, contingent on loyalty oath. Encourage emigration. (3) Once Jewish sovereignty has been consolidated and Jews are settling all over the land, make it clear that if Israel is attacked and Arabs in Israel show signs of uprising, they could be forcibly relocated outside Israeli borders.