Will Netanyahu Go to Riyadh?

30 Comments / 80 Comments

1. @ Felix Quigley:
   Please don’t leave angry. I am sorry if your are offended, but I too believe what I believe.

2. Felix Quigley Said:

   Yamit is laying down a trail of lies to keep Jewish youth of today from studying that history. Why?

   What lies? You are never or ever have been specific!Felix Quigley Said:

   I have not replied to these allowing some time to go by to see if there was anything of a kindred spirit, of basic fairness, on Israpundit who might intervene and call this type of calumny to order.

   In all truth I think there is not.

   Yes there have been some besides me ex: Bernard Ross and ayn Reagan just to name some outstanding opponents of your Trotsky religious fanatacism and they were even more stinging than I am….

   As tor waiting for support, I think Edgar G.: defended you on another thread and I refained from arguing with him although I could have easily.

   I seem to be an obsession of yours as you constantly referred to me in person or by inference in the negative in almost all of your comments even though for quite some time I was not active on this blog. There is much symmetry between your insistent injection and support of your diety Trotsky as fundamentalist Christians impose their deity whenever they comment,

   Again I laid out for you direct and indirect quotes by and attributed to Trotsky and you never rebutted these or any I have submitted to you in the past.. Calling them lies each time ????

3. Yamit 2 days ago writing a comment on Israpundit

   “F-u-K That POS Trotsky and all who follow him!!!”

   Other comment by another regular commenter calling his or her self “Honeybee” on Israpundit from yesterday

   “A curse on all your houses, Czar, Trotsky, Stalin Hitler (sic), birds of a feather.”

   When I began to write on Israpundit quite some time ago there was never anything remotely like this.

   I have not replied to these allowing some time to go by to see if there was anything of a kindred spirit, of basic fairness, on Israpundit who might intervene and call this type of calumny to order.

   In all truth I think there is not.

   From a young age Leon Trotsky has inspired me in everything I have done. I have to defend my own self and also the history of Leon Trotsky.

   I am breaking all contact with Israpundit and I am writing to remove the Israpundit newsletter from my inbox

4. @ Felix Quigley:
   A curse on all your houses, Czar, Trotsky, Stalin Hitler, birds of a feather.

5. As I learned long ago on Israpundit under Ted Belman there is no point in arguing with Yamit. I mean where do you begin? There is an abundance, to put it mildly, against the whole of the “communist” period of the Russian Revolution. But I do wonder why there was a flowering of the arts before Stalinism, and why Jews especially youngish Jews did flock to that side. What was the other side, that is the Czarist folks, up to? Or were the Jews just stupid. Surely there is a real history to be told.

   Anyway the roots of the Holocaust can be found not with Trotsky but with those he defeated, more particularly his leadership of the army he created from 1918 to 1922. They were the Whites who went on to form a close relationship with Hitler in Germany in 1923, which in my understanding seems to be the origin of the most damaging conspiracy theory of all…”Jewish Bolshevism”.

   As regards Yamit I am not in agreement with muck which is unsourced being thrown down on the page. I want things sourced and also some kind of critical commentary on those quoted. Also I find that there are many who like Adam who has some research ability, to sit back, snigger, and let it all roll by. But they should remember that the same clouds as in 1923 are again gathering on the horizon. You should follow the editorial line today of many sites such as Breitbart, Gates of Vienna, to understand that. Jews can never sit back separate from it all because these essential lies are swirling around them all the time.

   Just remember that the Whites and their Antisemitic filth defeated went to Germany where they formed a close liaison with Hitler which indeed laid the seeds of the Holocaust.

   Yamit is laying down a trail of lies to keep Jewish youth of today from studying that history. Why?

6. @ yamit82:
   xoxoxoxoxo

7. @ honeybee:

   Haaaaa Bumblebee woman >> Yeah that’s good LOL

8. Edgar G. Said:

   The “following horrors”…whilst very real and true horrors, were “unintended consequences”

   Trotsky should have been more aware of the consequences of his actions. Retiring in Lindo Mexico and having an passionate affair with Freida Kahlo is hardly what I call a vigorous opposition to Stalin.

9. Felix Quigley Said:

   Yamit and the Bumblebee woman are both McCarthyites

   Bumblebees are solitary bugs, whilst I , a Queen Bee, am the leader of a hive. Edgar G and Michael S , please note I wrote whilst . I are a classy assy Texan gal.
   Felix Quigley Said:

   That is impossible to reply to. How do you reply to gibberish?

   That is what I think every time I reply to you and you Trotsky nonsense
   .

10. @ Felix Quigley:

    Trotskyists asked whether the movement could indeed regard the two sides in a coming war, in which Hitler’s Germany would no doubt be a participant, as equally reprehensible; whether, in effect, the Fourth International should counsel the working class of the Western countries to carry on activities against their own governments even at the risk of helping Hitler win the war.

    Trotsky’s reply was extremely harsh and unequivocal: the old Bolshevist slogans from World War I still holds. The ‘capitalist’ governments of the West are as likely as not to turn fascist anyway. ‘A victory over the armies of Hitler and Mussolini implies in itself only the military defeat of Germany and Italy, and not at all the collapse of fascism.’ Furthermore, ‘the more resolute, firm and irreconcilable our position is on this question all the better will the masses understand us …’

    Once the war broke out, Trotsky wrote the solemn ‘Manifesto of the Fourth International on the Imperialist War and the Proletarian World Revolution’ (May 1940) which failed to see much difference between Western democracies and Hitler Germany:

    “But isn’t the working class obliged in the present conditions to aid the democracies in their struggle against German fascism ?” That is how the question in put by broad petty-bourgeois circles …. We reject this policy with indignation. Naturally there exists a difference between the political regimes in bourgeois society just as there is a difference in comfort between various cars in a railway train. But when the whole train is plunging into an abyss, the distinction between decaying democracy and murderous fascism disappears in the face of the collapse of the entire capitalist system.

    Trotsky was killed that year and was never to learn that the Western democracies did, contrary to his prediction, defeat fascism. In his 1939 reply to the Palestinian Trotskyists he had said that if the ‘slightly senile’ Allies were indeed capable of liquidating fascism, ‘even if only for a limited period,’ he would be wrong and those supporting the war effort would be right. We don’t know what he would now say, were he alive. All we know is that those who act in his name — the Trotskyists of today — stand fast in proclaiming that his pronouncements of 1939 and 1940 were absolutely correct.

    But for the Jewish members and supporters of the old Trotskyism, it may well be that the movement’s position of ‘defeatism’ was the first of several profound shocks that alienated them from the movement. Certainly, as more and more of the details of the Holocaust became known after the war, Trotsky’s analogy to the ‘difference in comfort between various cars in a railway train’ appeared less and less felicitous.

11. @ Felix Quigley:

    The Jews of Israel: An Oppressor Nation

    When the national convention of the Socialist Workers Party in the United States adopted its resolution on ‘Israel and the Arab Revolution’ in August of 1971, it was by far the largest Trotskyist grouping in North America and was also perhaps the most influential formation in the international Trotskyist movement. No fewer than 1,100 delegates and visitors attended the convention. The resolution is probably the most carefully written exposition of the new Trotskyist thinking concerning Israel and Zionism. It solemnly and, for the movement authoritatively, establishes the new doctrine that the whole Jewish people of Israel — not just the rulers or capitalists of the country — are oppressors and must be considered enemies:

    The right of oppressed nationalities to self-determination is a unilateral right. That is, it is the right of the presently oppressed Palestinians to determine unilaterally whether or not they and the Hebrew-speaking Jews will live in unitary state or in separate states. The Israeli Jews, as the present oppressor nationality, do not have that right.

    On the other hand,

    … within this framework, the Hebrew-speaking Jews, a small minority within the Arab East, are guaranteed all democratic rights of a national minority, such as language, culture, religion, education, etc. If appropriate, this can include the right to local self-administration in Jewish areas, but not the unilateral right to form a militia or other armed force; any form of local self-administration must be subject to the approval of the central government of the unitary workers state.

    Above all,

    A key task of the Arab revolution, and the central task of the Palestinian struggle, is the destruction of the Israeli settler-colonial, expansionist, capitalist state. To accomplish this task requires, first of all, the revolutionary mobilization of the Arab masses; and secondly, within Israel, winning the largest possible support for the Arab revolution and neutralizing the opponents of the Arab revolution.

    Although ‘the Jewish workers in Israel are economically and socially privileged compared to the Arab workers, both within Israel and the Arab East … [and] have also been entrapped by their support to Zionism,’ the party nevertheless urges revolutionary socialists in Israel to win Jewish workers away from Zionism and from the existing trade unions (Histadruth) and to enlist them for help in the destruction of the Jewish state. ‘This is the only perspective in the interest of the Jewish masses as well.’

    Furthermore, ‘our revolutionary socialist opposition to Zionism and the Israeli state has nothing in common with anti-Semitism, as the pro-Zionist propagandists maliciously and falsely assert.’

    This position is then developed as follows:

    The situation of the Israeli Jews is essentially different from that of Jews in other parts of the world. The struggle against anti-Semitism and the oppression of Jews in other countries is a progressive struggle directed against their oppressors…” [But] The Israeli Jews form an oppressor nationality of a settler-colonial character vis-a-vis the Arab peoples. … From the point of view of the Leninist concept of the right of nations to self-determination, the key fact is whether the given nationality is an oppressed nationality or an oppressor nationality. …

    There was a minority opinion in the party which went approximately as follows: we agree that Israeli Jews constitute an oppressor nation and have no right to self determination before the socialist revolution; nevertheless we think that after the revolution these Jews might well have a claim to a workers state of their own. The majority decided that there should be no support for a Jewish state, either before or after the revolution. I have been informed that members of the minority were close to the thinking of the (Mandelite) European-based leadership of the international movement at the time, and their point of view may well be that of the Mandel group now

    The party issued a booklet of approximately 60,000 words to explain the resolution and its reasoning. It ranged over the entire history of Palestine and Israel. Nowhere is there mention of Arab violence against Jews, nor of Al-Hajj Amin al-Husayni.

12. Felix Quigley Said:

    Even without that such writing is NOT history. It is obvious that it is not history. Just read it.

    F-u-K That POS Trotsky and all who follow him!!!

    Trotsky was convinced that Jews had no future as a nation and advocated universalism. In 1903, he publicly condemned the Bund, accusing its members of national isolationism. Over the years he maintained that the “Jewish question” could only be resolved within the context of complete and ultimate victory of the international proletariat. Trotsky refused to accept the post of commissar of internal affairs in Lenin’s government out of concern that with a Jew in that position, the counterrevolution would whip up antisemitic feeling and turn it against the Bolsheviks. Beginning in 1925, Stalin’s campaign against Trotsky and Zinov’ev was indeed accompanied by blatantly antisemitic agitation. In spite of his consistent opposition to Zionism, in an interview with the Jewish Daily Forward in 1937, Trotsky admitted that the rise of antisemitism in Germany and the USSR had caused him to give up his old hope of “assimilation.” He had arrived at the view that even under socialism, the Jewish question required a “territorial solution”—but not in Palestine.

    Trotsky: “The attempt to solve the Jewish question through the migration of Jews to Palestine can now be seen for what it is, a tragic mockery of the Jewish people. Interested in winning the sympathies of the Arabs who are more numerous than the Jews, the British government has sharply altered its policy toward the Jews, and has actually renounced its promise to help them found their “own home” in a foreign land. The future development of military events may well transform Palestine into a bloody trap for several hundred thousand Jews. Never was it so clear as it is today that the salvation of the Jewish people is bound up inseparably with the overthrow of the capitalist system.”

    July, 1940

    Commies eradicated anti-Semitism??? So I challenge comrade Felix to admit the historical truth

    It has not yet been forgotten, I trust, that anti-Semitism was quite widespread in Czarist Russia among the peasants, the petty bourgeoisie of the city, the intelligentsia and the more backward strata of the working class. “Mother” Russia was renowned not only for her periodic Jewish pogroms, but also for the existence of a considerable number of anti-Semitic publications which, in that day, enjoyed a wide circulation. The October Revolution abolished the outlawed status of the Jews. That, however, does not at all mean that with one blow it swept out anti-Semitism. A long and persistent struggle against religion has failed to prevent suppliants even today from crowding thousands and thousands of churches, mosques and synagogues. The same situation prevails in the sphere of national prejudices. Legislation alone does not change people. Their thoughts, emotions, outlook depend upon tradition, material conditions of life, cultural level, etc. The Soviet regime is not yet twenty years old. The older half of the population was educated under Czarism. The younger half has inherited a great deal from the older. These general historical conditions in themselves should make any thinking person realize that, despite the model legislation of the October Revolution, it is impossible that national and chauvinist prejudices, particularly anti-Semitism, should not have persisted strongly among the backward layers of the population.
    Leon Trotsky
    Thermidor and Anti-Semitism
    (February 1937)

    Some would-be “pundits” have even accused me of “suddenly” raising the “Jewish question” and of intending to create some kind of ghetto for the Jews. I can only shrug my shoulders in pity. I have lived my whole life outside Jewish circles. I have always worked in the Russian workers’ movement. My native tongue is Russian. Unfortunately, I have not even learned to read Jewish. The Jewish question has never occupied the center of my attention. But that does not mean that I have the right to be blind to the Jewish problem which exists and demands solution. “The Friends of the USSR” are satisfied with the creation of Birobidjan. I will not stop at this point to consider whether it was built on a sound foundation, and what type of regime exists there. (Birobidjan cannot help reflecting all the vices of bureaucratic despotism.) But not a single progressive, thinking individual will object to the USSR designating a special territory for those of its citizens who feel themselves to be Jews, who use the Jewish language in preference to all others and who wish to live as a compact mass. Is this or is this not a ghetto? During the period of Soviet democracy, of completely voluntary migrations, there could be no talk about ghettos. But the Jewish question, by the very manner in which settlements of Jews occurred, assumes an international aspect. Are we not correct in saying that a world socialist federation would have to make possible the creation of a “Birobidjan” for those Jews who wish to have their own autonomous republic as the arena for their own culture? It may be presumed that a socialist democracy will not resort to compulsory assimilation. It may very well be that within two or three generations the boundaries of an independent Jewish republic, as of many other national regions, will be erased. I have neither time nor desire to meditate on this. Our descendents will know better than we what to do. I have in mind a transitional historical period when the Jewish question, as such, is still acute and demands adequate measures from a world federation of workers’ states. The very same methods of solving the Jewish question which under decaying capitalism have a utopian and reactionary character (Zionism), will, under the regime of a socialist federation, take on a real and salutary meaning. This is what I wanted to point out. How could any Marxist, or even any consistent democrat, object to this?

    Here he is a huge liar the area alloted to Jews was at the furthest reaches of the USSR In central Asia the worst steppes and tundra even worse than the worst parts of Siberia.

    In the chaos of civil war, new waves of anti-Jewish pogroms broke out throughout Ukraine, and Trotsky considered, but ultimately rejected, the idea of organizing special Jewish sections within the Red Army. When the Chief Rabbi of Moscow, Jacob Maze, asked Trotsky personally for extra security to protect Russian Jews from these pogroms, Trotsky answered that he was a Bolshevik and did not consider himself a Jew.

    Trotsky’s most important biographer, Isaac Deutscher, coined the phrase “non-Jewish Jew” to describe Trotsky and his generation of universalist thinkers. Like Rosa Luxemburg (“Red Rosa”), who was murdered in 1919 for being too far left of the emerging socialist order in post-World War I Berlin, Trotsky’s life was cut short for being a loud-mouthed socialist.

    Russian TV series claims Jewish Trotsky masterminded bloody 1917 revolution
    Leaving historians unsure whether show is anti-Semitic or simply sensationalist, upcoming drama accuses Marxist thinker of murdering tsar’s family

    “He was a cannibal and a tyrant”

    There is a tradition in the Trotskyist movement, dating back to Trotsky’s “Left Opposition” to Stalin in the 1920s, of seeking to outbid the official Communist Parties on the matter of leftism: we are more leftist than thou ! After 1967 anti-Zionism became almost part of the definition of being on the left, and, seen from this point of view, it is not altogether surprising that the Trotskyists generally developed a harsher and more uncompromising line on this question than did the official Communists.

    Both pro-Moscow and Trotskyist Communists have always insisted, then as well as now, over and over in all pronouncements that deal even remotely with our topic, that they are, have been, and always will be staunch opponents of anti-Semitism. Their anti-Zionism, they never tire to say, is not at all directed against the Jewish group, let alone Jews as individuals. In fact, they say, it is Zionism that is really anti-Semitic: Zionism, like Nazism, preached that Jews are a foreign element in the countries of the diaspora; Zionists, like Nazis, tried to have Jews leave Germany in the Nazi period; Zionism as a political movement collaborated with the Nazis.

13. @ Edgar G.:
    Edgar … This is such a big issue for all of the Irish. I would like every Irish person to be made aware of these historical facts. An individual cannot ever do this. It means having an organization but the more I learn about the Jewish experience in Ireland it tells us everything about the Jewish experience overall. I am trying to trace that journey from Hamburg to Cork

14. I forgot to say how you can get this materiall from Michael Kellogg. Note that it is PDF so you should be able to work with it freely

    http://www.thechristianidentityforum.net/downloads/Russian-Nazism.pdf

15. This groundbreaking book examines the overlooked topic of the influence
    of anti-Bolshevik, anti-Semitic Russian exiles on Nazism.
    White emigr ´ es contributed politically, financially, militarily, and ide- ´
    ologically to National Socialism. This work refutes the notion that
    Nazism developed as a peculiarly German phenomenon. National
    Socialism arose primarily from the cooperation between volkisch ¨
    (nationalist/racist) Germans and vengeful White emigr ´ es. ´
    From 1920 to 1923, Adolf Hitler collaborated with a conspiratorial far
    right German-White emigr ´ e´ organization, Aufbau (Reconstruction).
    Aufbau allied with Nazis to overthrow the German government and
    Bolshevik rule through terrorism and military/paramilitary schemes.
    This organization’s warnings of the monstrous “Jewish Bolshevik”
    peril helped to inspire Hitler to launch an invasion of the Soviet
    Union and to initiate the mass murder of European Jews. This book
    uses extensive archival materials from Germany and Russia, including
    recently declassified documents, and it will prove invaluable reading
    for anyone interested in the international roots of National Socialism.

16. @ Felix Quigley:

    Yes you are absolutely right about the Irish Jews. They KNEW. They were all escapees from Latvia and Lithuania, arriving from the late 1880s and 1890s. on…which were Russia in those days. My dear late father when a boy, had his eardrum pierced, causing permanent deafness, so as to avoid being snatched up into the Russian army for 30-40 years, as they did with captive Jews in those wicked days.

    ***My dear late father who never really spoke about those terrible early days at all except once…. telling us about the Cossack raids, and the pre-prepared hideouts they had. He and other young boys were daily lookouts in a ring around the shtetl….. Eventually the family was smuggled across the border, and got to Hambourg. They brought with them -as ostensible part of their family- some young children belonging to other families. From Hambourg, they sailed for over 6 weeks, in an old wooden fishing boat, with brown sails, and existed on barrels of salt herring, black bread and water….. Those were the days.(1894)….!!

    We in our luxury, have no idea what our parents suffered to enable us to here on this day.

17. The posting was very valid. There is no doubt in my mind that all of these people are correct, from Netanyahu to Pompeo to Trump. Iran remains a really big danger to Israel.

    I thought a few years ago that with different leadership in Israel that Iran could have been totally excluded from Syria and I still believe that. Even more on reflection and how it turned out so horribly for the Yazidis.

    Learn the lessons.

    But I also am a realistic person and we are in the present.

18. @ Michael S:
    That is impossible to reply to. How do you reply to gibberish?

19. @ Edgar G.:

    he opposed them. He failed against Stalin and was progressively drummed out of the whole Soviet Combine. His hounding, and subsequent assassination, showed that Stalin always regarded him as a dangerous opponent

    So much in this. The reason that you see this clearly is that you are not governed by dogma but obviously has a real interest in history.

    All I will say to you Edgar is that we have hardly even begun to tell the story.

    People should just bear in mind that Lenin and Trotsky did not begin the Russian Revolution. Trotsky was in New York, not by his own desire, he was forced to there. Lenin was also out of the country with few followers. I know this because in early 1917 he was confiding to a few of his people in Switzerland that we will never see the revolution, that is he was in despair.

    It happened outside of them because of contradictions in the system. Is that understood? The real movement of the world takes place outside of the individual.

    They simply came back and offered a viewpoint which was taken up BY THE MASSES.

    The actual Revolution, the Insurrection, took place over one night and morning, that is two days.

    Now how anybody with any knowledge of Antisemitism in Czarist Russia, which the Irish Jews were and are acquainted with as much as anybody, could be destroyed inside of a few days or months, well that just leaves you scratching your head at how stupid some people can be.

    From that I have nothing to add to what you said.

20. @ yamit82:

    Something does not make sense here. The Revolution took place on 24 to 25th of October 2017 in our calendar. The Constituent Assembly was in January 2018 our calendar. yet the writer in this case was sitting down DAYS AFTER THE OCTOBER REVOLUTION to write about the Constituent Assembly (not to happen until 3 months later…some feat that)

    Even without that such writing is NOT history. It is obvious that it is not history. Just read it.

21. Yamit and the Bumblebee woman are both McCarthyites. Please just remember that!

22. @ yamit82:
    Exactly YOUR position. You ARE a McCarthyite. Thanks for clarifying!

23. @ Edgar G.:
    HI, Edgar. You said,

    “I find it hard to see myself actually defending Trotsky….Maybe ‘m just dreaming it”

    In 1991, I noticed that the newscasters were calling the Communists of Russia “Right Wing”, and the Capitalists were called “left wing”. Some time after that, I noticed that the Republican states in the US were being shown in red (the Communist color), whereas before then, they were usually shown in blue. I chalked it up to Orwellian “Newspeak”, which it was. Since then, the phenomenon has only gotten more absurd.

    Are you a Jew, like Kerensky? or a Gentile like Trotsky? I’m a bit confused on all that (just kidding Yamit already dealt with this).

    “He’s not a Yentile! He’s a Yew!”

    — https://bycommonconsent.com/2007/09/20/what-is-a-gentile/

24. @ honeybee:

    The “following horrors”…whilst very real and true horrors, were “unintended consequences”, and I don’t see that Trotsky should be shouldered with that. He didn’t begin anything like that. There were the real actors there, who committed the horrors and Trotsky was not amongst them; he opposed them. He failed against Stalin and was progressively drummed out of the whole Soviet Combine. His hounding, and subsequent assassination, showed that Stalin always regarded him as a dangerous opponent.

    ******I find it hard to see myself actually defending Trotsky….Maybe ‘m just dreaming it.

25. Felix Quigley Said:

    So glad you are being fought against…You are nothing more or less than a McCarthyite..I pledge to kick you Fascist scum right out of the Jewish movement.

    History has shown McCarthy to have been mostly correct. The Commies had infiltrated almost every stratum of American society and Gov.

26. Felix Quigley Said:

    I do not start from the point that because a Jew says it that it has some inherent validity. Same as if Trotsky says it…exactly the same.

    These are ideas and intellectual statements that have to be considered on their own merits. Let us go from there.

    So the first part. If what I say is true, that Lenin and Trotsky by their conduct in the Russian Civil War waged from 1918 to 1922 WIPED OUT THE POGROMS IN RUSSIA then that is a very big statement.

    Kerensky notices some graffiti, freshly painted on the palace walls: “Down with the Yid Kerensky, long live comrade Trotsky!”

    The slogan retains its absurdity a century on: Kerensky, of course, was not Jewish, whereas Trotsky was. What the slogan does point to, however, is the messy and contradictory role that antisemitism played within the revolutionary process. In much of the existing literature on the Russian Revolution, antisemitism is understood as a form of “counterrevolution,” as the preserve of the anti-Bolshevik right.

    Just days after the October Revolution, the writer Ilia Ehrenburg — soon to be one of the most prolific and well-known Jewish authors in the Soviet Union — sat down to collect his thoughts on the momentous events that had just taken place. His account stands as perhaps the most vivid description of the articulation between antisemitism and the revolutionary process in 1917:

    Yesterday I was standing in line, waiting to vote for the Constituent Assembly. People were saying ‘Whoever’s against the Yids, vote for number 5! [the Bolsheviks]’, ‘Whoever’s for world-wide revolution, vote for number 5!’ The patriarch rode by, sprinkling holy water; everyone removed their hats. A group of soldiers passing by started to belt out the Internationale in his direction. Where am I? Or is this truly hell?

    In this startling recollection, the distinction between revolutionary Bolshevism and counterrevolutionary antisemitism is blurred. In fact, Ehrenburg’s account prefigures the haunting question that would be posed in Isaac Babel’s civil war stories Red Cavalry: “which is the Revolution and which the counterrevolution?”

    Despite Bolshevik insistence on framing it as a purely “counterrevolutionary” phenomenon, antisemitism eluded such neat categorization, and could be found across the political divide, in highly complex and unexpected forms. This would be most sharply revealed six months later, in the spring of 1918, when the first pogroms since the October Revolution broke out in the former Pale of Settlement. In towns and cities of northeast Ukraine such as Glukhov, Bolshevik power was consolidated through anti-Jewish violence on the part of the local cadres of the party and Red Guards. The Bolshevik confrontation with antisemitism in 1918, then, was often a confrontation with the antisemitism of its own social base. https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/06/russian-revolution-antisemitism-pogroms-reactionary-workers

27. Felix Quigley Said:

    @ honeybee:
    So glad you are being fought against…You are nothing more or less than a McCarthyite..I pledge to kick you Fascist scum right out of the Jewish movement.

    Ya better have big feet, Darlin.

28. @ honeybee:
    So glad you are being fought against…You are nothing more or less than a McCarthyite..I pledge to kick you Fascist scum right out of the Jewish movement.

29. @ Felix Quigley:
    By supporting the Communist takeover of Russia Trotsky became complicit in all the following horrors of the Soviet Union.

30. @ honeybee:
    FIRST ITEM…MY STATEMENT
    Antisemitism…Trotsky and Lenin did not just talk, they wiped out Antisemitism in the context of the massive experience of Civil War 1918 to 1922, specifically the Czarist pogroms. Trotskyism wiped out the Russian pogroms.
    http://trotskyist.org/leon-trotsky-why-is-this-man-so-important-for-the-present-day/
    Yamit82 and Adam…You agree or disagree. If you disagree state your case.

    SECOND ITEM…REPLY FROM HONEYBEE

    who wrote “And then they instituted their own Communist inspired programs. Please do not piss down my leg and tell me it’s raining.”

    I start from the point that these are all ideas. Statements about history.

    I do not start from the point that because a Jew says it that it has some inherent validity. Same as if Trotsky says it…exactly the same.

    These are ideas and intellectual statements that have to be considered on their own merits. Let us go from there.

    So the first part. If what I say is true, that Lenin and Trotsky by their conduct in the Russian Civil War waged from 1918 to 1922 WIPED OUT THE POGROMS IN RUSSIA then that is a very big statement.

    It is such a big statement that I have never once seen it put as fact, or even considered as an idea, I repeat once by any Jewish person. The nearest I have seen of anybody coming towards this kind of assessment was Robert Wistrich

    SECOND PART put forward by Honeybee and backed below that by Yamit82 is a kind of a trompe l’oeil working in the three dimensions, where she draws attention to what I wrote, then moves altogether onto a different canvas.

    But moving onto a different canvas is a trick. She and they do not consider the very serious issue I raised. It is a trick designed to avoid what I said and to hide it from the reader, because these are ideas that are battling out on the page.

    Because if the forces of the Bolsheviks, against the Whites and all of the world cpaitalist order, did indeed end the pogroms in Russia, in that mammoth struggle waged from 1918 to 1922, then that starts to explain a great deal about history.

    it is quite obvious to me that Honeybee denies completely what I wrote and seeks to evade the challenge that I threw down. Denying is no problem but evading is a crime in our context.

    In reality the only way that what I wrote can be disproved is to deal with the actual history of the Russian Civil War, from the standpoint of what actually took place, not on the basis of fake news.

    So we are in fact defending history and the historical method.

    Then another thing arises…this is the venom, the hatred, the use of foul language as in this

    “And then they instituted their own Communist inspired programs. Please do not piss down my leg and tell me it’s raining”.

    I have no idea who Honeybee is so this is not personal. But there is a hatred here which I have to take into account. Then “they” instituted…who instituted. By 1922 Lenin was becoming ill and he soon died. But is she referring to Trotsky and if so that is a total lie, and to avoid this being a lie the person has to provide some facts. Or is she referring to Stalin and Stalinism?

    Or what does this Honeybee person mean when she exclaims “And then they instituted their own Communist inspired programs. Please do not piss down my leg and tell me it’s raining”.

    What programs then can be laid at the door of Leon Trotsky from 1922 to 1940?

    It all becomes a total mystery in the words of this person.

    And out of such ignorance emerges huge prejudice as every Jew SHOULD know.