By Elliot Abrams, ISRAEL HAYOM
U.S. Senator Rand Paul has tried to attain some pro-Israel credentials by introducing S 2265, the Stand With Israel Act of 2014. The bill would cut off every cent of aid to the Palestinian Authority unless various conditions were met. As Paul put it, “Today, I introduced legislation to make all future aid to the Palestinian government conditional upon the new unity government putting itself on the record recognizing the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state and agreeing to a lasting peace.” The bill covers “the Palestinian Authority, or any affiliated governing entity or leadership organization.”
Why is this not smart legislation? Among other things, it is not smart because it would force a cutoff of any U.S. assistance to the Palestinian security forces.
Under Yasser Arafat, those forces, at that time 13 in all, were disorganized, totally corrupt, and wholly politicized; the late Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon used to call them “terror-security forces.” But since Arafat’s death in 2004 the United States has made a major effort to professionalize those forces. American generals have led efforts to train them, at bases in Jordan, and they have worked with American security and intelligence officials.
Perhaps more significantly, this effort has paid dividends in valuable cooperation against terror between Israeli and Palestinian forces. Consider this 2010 assessment from the International Crisis Group:
With certain exceptions outlined above, the Shin Bet security agency provides its Palestinian counterparts with lists of wanted militants, whom Palestinians subsequently arrest. IDF and Israeli intelligence officials take the view that, in this regard, “coordination has never been as extensive,” with “coordination better in all respects.” Moreover, in past years Palestinian security forces were divided and internally ill-coordinated, leading Israel to work with only some of them; today, given a more centralized Palestinian apparatus, Israeli coordinates across the entire PA spectrum. A senior IDF official went so far as to describe the joint work as “beyond our expectations.” [footnotes omitted]
In 2011, Al-Jazeera revealed documents showing extensive Israeli-Palestinian security cooperation — whose extent indeed was revealed in an effort to embarrass Palestinian officials. A 2011 report by the coordinating body for aid donors to the Palestinian Authority noted that that year, “despite the stymied political process and the tense relationship between the government and the Palestinian Authority, in 2011 some 764 joint security meetings were held, a 5% increase over the year before.” In 2013, retired Gen. Shlomo Brom of the Institute for National Security Studies said, “This is the best security cooperation we’ve had in years.”
There is reason to fear that since the departure of Prime Minister Salam Fayyad in 2013, the Palestinian security forces are declining in competence and are being politicized; moreover, there is reason to fear that if there is a unity government of any sort the security forces in the West Bank will refrain from arresting Hamas-affiliated personnel. But Paul’s legislation would kill a successful project to which the United States has dedicated years of work and substantial funds, and would undermine Israeli-Palestinian security cooperation. If the Palestinian forces that we have trained stop cooperating with Israel, or start winking at Hamas terrorism, we should cut them off. Until that happens, a cutoff is foolish and possibly dangerous. Whatever the intent of Paul’s legislation, it is certainly no help to Israel.
@ dweller:
Your apologetic defense of RR mirrors your twisted and convoluted defense of yeshu and the NT especially the cretin dwarf Paul.
I have to go out for awhile getback to this later or tomorrow. 😉
@ yamit82:
Apples & Oranges. No comparison whatsoever.
You need your own bogeyman (Real, imagined or invented) — and America fills the bill.
Makes me wonder why you went to Vietnam?
— to bottle rice paddy water?
No, you may not — unless you can show us the speech or press conference where he supposedly did so.
Proof?
Told you before: you can thank State Dept for that. Decision was made in Foggy Bottom, not Oval Office.
You are a flat-out liar.
He spat in nobody’s face. He was snookered by Helmut Kohl. In any case, the Waffen SS at Bitburg cemetery were not the Regular SS thugs. They were largely drafted teenagers at the tail end of the war (when they were all that was left for German manpower), who would’ve been hanged had they refused service. I’ve written at length about this elsewhere. Google the archives: “dweller + Bitburg.”
It was all for show, and you know it. A nice, international diplomatic minuet. There was no substantive loss to Israel. Jeane Kirkpatrick went thru the motions of objecting at the UN. You think SHE “blamed Israel” (for destroying Osirak reactor) too? Get a life.
You can thank Begin for that. He overplayed his hand
— and not too forthrightly either.
yamit82 Said:
America were
Both sides in Central America were SOBS with elbows. At the time I was managing an English as Second language school [ wanna be Harriet Hull] and immigration began raiding work place etc. without search warrents. I kept the school doors locked and chained. I told my Dad I would not give up my Guatamalen young men because the would go home to their deaths. The Ol’boy was hoping I would be raided so he could finally take a case all the way to SCOTUS. It my dear Yamit82 was not good, there was enough fault to go around.
honeybee Said:
My Father rarely cursed and never used obscenities in front of myself and my Mother. Very old school.
yamit82 Said:
I WIN AND THE PRIZE IS A CHOCOLATE COVERED PASTRAMI !!!!!!!!!!!!!
@ yamit82:
Why do you think I was drawn to you from my first post. I was think of you just now. First I watch the ” Battle for Hue City” on the Military channel and then as I am preparing supper CCR sang ” Run Through the Jungle”.
Comment #37 in moderation pls release!!!
honeybee Said:
Just like Clinton did in Bosnia and Obama did in Libya!!!
America needs her Bogeyman. Real, imagined or invented.
Might I remind you that RR was the first President to advocate for and independent Palis state. Used the PLO as security for Americans and America facilities in Lebanon and saved Arafat from being destroyed by Sharon in Lebanon.
How different the ME and Israel would look today if Sharon had succeeded? RR was a holocaust denier and spit in the face of Jews who opposed him paying tribute to fallen Nazis in a German cemetery and in his address equated them with their victims as being a victim of Hitler. He blamed Israel for destroying the Iraqi Nuke reactor and imposed sanctions holding up Phantoms and parts to Israel for over a year. Israel at that time was not receiving freebees from America and we paid for those parts and planes.
He pushed to sell to the Saudis AWACS over the strident objections of Israel and AIPAC knowing full well that it gave the Saudis a strategic advantage over us and refused to sell us the same system forcing Israel to develop our own.
If you want some interesting reading start with this:
1981-1989
http://www.hirhome.com/israel/hirally2.htm#1981
Check out the footnotes for verifications
honeybee Said:
Your father and Me are on the same page. Except for the spitting. I just curse out loud.
@ yamit82:
My Father dislike Abrams also along with Abba Eben and Peres. Every time he head their names he would spit.
dweller Said:
I had some contacts with Central America and it was very shaky place. RR shored it up.
yamit82 Said:
Bring it on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Cowboy
@ Bear Klein:
What do you disagree with or refute in my comment# 13 https://www.israpundit.org/archives/63596340/comment-page-1#comment-63356000128528
I can supply a lot more if I am not convincing enough.
@ yamit82:
Got some facts to support that? So far, after numerous exchanges over the years, you never have produced anything verifiable.
Proof of RR’s ‘consent’ please.
“By any definition”? In that case, you should have no trouble giving us YOUR definition — and providing concrete evidences of it.
In that case, why WEREN’T they?
Notwithstanding the FORM of the process, impeachment is a political proceeding — not a judicial one. Are you truly so dense as to really think the Democrat Congress wouldn’t have LEAPT at the opportunity to impeach if they’d sensed the ghost of a chance to do so?
From you twisted p-o-v, virtually NO presidential appointment in ANY administration isn’t a ‘Jew-hater’ or ‘Nazi.’
I was stateside for both of his terms, and he took NO actions ‘against’ Israel (let alone, the Jews).
Better.
He’s no demigod, and I’ve never ‘worshipped’ him. Unlike you , however, I give every man a fair hearing. You’ve given him a bum rap from Day One.
That just may be the nicest thing you’ve ever said about me.
Indeed, but not the way you mean it.
yamit82 Said:
Would you come after lil’ol me if I called you a NUTTY KOOK. If you do come after me bring chocolate.
BethesdaDog Said:
Last time you called me a Kook.
That’s two. If there is a third I’m coming after your regardless of you connections with Ted.
BethesdaDog Said:
He’s not nutty, he’s got nuts. there’s a difference, darlin.
dweller Said:
Yadda Yadda old record of total Bull crap. Constitution for you shits is just some toilet paper to wave when it suits you and ignore when it doesn’t. For you pseudo conservative dead heads the ends justify any means even murder rape, torture and theft against kids and women and elderly. VP Bush was running a secret CIA clone out of the WH with Reagan’s consent. RR was by any definition a war criminal and should have been impeached with Bush and tried and hanged according to the Law.
Every appointment at least most were Jew haters and Nazis.
I was in Israel for most of his 2 terms and remember well his admin actions against us… Too long to itemize here but you know them as well as I do but unlke you I do not worship that shit demigod like you do. There is a symmetry between your views on yeshu and RR. Surreal. You have made lies your refuge, and under falsehood have you hid yourself: KJV
“Woe unto those [like you]who speak of Evil as [if it were] Good, and of Good as [if it were] Evil; who make Darkness into [the semblance of] Light, and Light into [the semblance of] Darkness; who make Bitter into [the perception of] Sweet, and Sweet into [the perception of] Bitter.”
@ dweller:
I won’t leave aside the “merits” of the issue, I was trying just to address the nuttiness of this guy Yamit. His insult of Elliot Abrams is truly mind-boggling, especially with no recitation of facts to support his ugly slur. I don’t expect people who I recognize as generally on our side when it comes to Israel, to agree on every point. I am a great admirer of Dershowitz, despite the fact his support of a “two state” solution riles many people that post here. I recognize the total picture–he has been a fierce advocate for Israel for many years. I still remember vividly his debating on the side of Israel on the old PBS program, “The Advocates,” back in about 1970. I, personally, don’t support a two state solution, I don’t oppose it. I don’t have any answers to this question. I’m pragmatic, and want whatever works. Personally, I don’t see a possibility of a solution at all because of the continuing hatred the Arabs and so called Palestinians have for Israel. Ultimately, Abrams was only reflecting the position of those in power in Israel. I don’t question them because I know they are closer to the situation, obviously, and have a much better handle on it. I doubt that anyone doubts that there is danger in the long term with the armed Palestinian security forces, but if the Israelis are aware of it, they might be able to deal with that potential threat. On the other hand, Israel is ill served by chaos and the lack of a Plestinian security force. That’s all I can say, because I don’t know enough and I’m not as smart as some on this board who obviously can also see into the future. I’ll defer to the Israeli government, the position of which is reflected, I think, in the Abrams piece. Now, can I go back to enjoying my favorite magazine, Commentary?
dweller Said:
I consider neither Regan or GWB anti-Semitic. Regan was tough in his with foreign policy. GWB was not anti-Semitic. If you wish to call a administration anti-Semitic its Carter and Obama and they are openly.
@ honeybee:
He means the Reagan and Bush-the-Elder admins.
But as usual in re these matters, he’s fullovit, especially as to the former.
The latter is more complicated, but neither of them are among the “most antisemitic” US admins.
@ yamit82:
The contra part of those ‘shenanigans’ were part of a noble effort t to keep Soviet influence out of the Western Hemisphere. RR’s Demo congress had no problem with the prospect of a Soviet presence, and accordingly aligned themselves AGAINST a centuries old American tradition going back to the president who gave the DOCTRINE his name, James Monroe.
@ AbbaGuutuu:
Depends on whom you ask. Some of us here (myself included) take the view that Israel loses as much (or more) in independence of action and latitude of movement as she gains from USA assistance.
It also occurs to me that inasmuch as all the funding Israel receives from America is military, there is an excellent case to be made for the proposition that the aid be taken from the Defense budget RATHER than from the Foreign Aid budget, just as are our contributions to the NATO countries.
Of course. At least, however, it would make those countries put their money where their mouth is.
And in any case, American citizens wouldn’t have to be forever feeling the need to take a shower every time they hear about another Palestinian atrocity.
dweller Said:
Good points!
dweller Said:
Had the bill passed thereby creating precedence to cut all foreign aids will it be advantageous to Israel?
PA could get aids from rich Arab countries (if USA does not).
I’m not a fan of Rand Paul, but I agree with him in this instance.
@ honeybee:
Elliot Abram is pro Israel, Judge for yourself.
Numerous articles he has written defending Israel.
Both in government and out of it.
http://www.cfr.org/experts/middle-east-israel-human-rights/elliott-abrams/b1567
yamit82 Said:
And those administration were??? Maybe he was attempting to be a modifying force?
@ Bear Klein:
He won’t allow me a peek without compromising myself.
@ honeybee: What type of horns? Old Goat? or ??
Bear Klein Said:
it’s the horns, Sugar Bear!!
@ yamit82: You had good points about the danger of the PA police. As you know I agree with you on these points.
Your manner of insulting commentary directed to towards others actually detracts from the point you are trying to make. I am probably wasting my keystrokes but what the hell.
@ <a href="#comment-63356000128484" title="Go to
@ BethesdaDog: Well written.
BethesdaDog Said:
Evil?? Never said he was evil just a dirty Jew who harmed Israel and supported Presidents and policies inimical to our interests and even anti-Israel and anti Jewish. I Could have added a convicted Felon who was pardoned but not before he threw Israel under the bus by involving her in his criminal and nefarious Iran Contra shenanigans that were not only criminal but made of war crimes stuff. It also showed him to be a liar….
He supported and worked for 2 of the most antisemitic and anti Israel administrations since 1948. He had a hand in saving Arafat and his gang in Lebanon from Sharon, leading to the subsequent murder and maiming of thousands of Jews. Supported the PLO along with Reagan and a 2 State Solution under both Reagan and Bush.
Speaking of Commentary???
He was a major supporter of Sharon’s leaving Gaza and praised him like a god in “Commentary article: “Ariel Sharon: His Eye Was Not Dim” How did that maneuver turn out?? And the costs to us are not yet tallied, as more death and destruction yet to come because of that stupid act.
Haven’t read such drivel and BS piece of revisionist history and personal characterization from any but card bearing Jew Haters.
Apparently Abrams omits his part in the disastrous policies of his Bosses Reagan and Bush, especially with regard to American policy and Israel, all negative as far as I can find including worthless letter Bush gave to Sharon which wasn’t worth the paper it was written on and most of us her on IP thought as much. Letter to Sharon from Bush authored by Abrams in whole or part.
In his Book “Faith or Fear”: “How Jews Can Survive in a Christian America”. Abrams remarks “Outside the land of Israel, there can be no doubt that Jews, faithful to the covenant between God and Abraham, are to stand apart from the nation in which they live.” He says that this should not imply disloyalty to America or any other country where Jews live outside of Israel, but that Jews must be loyal to Israel because they “are in a permanent covenant with God and with the land of Israel and its people.”
So why hasn’t he practiced what he preached???
I do agree with you on at least one point:…. one of is a KOOK!!! 🙂
@ Yidvocate:
Well said.
@ BethesdaDog:
Your sarcasm is well-taken about yamit’s characteristic demonizing of Abrams (and by extension, Jackson, Gaffney, Perle & the Podhoretzes). That being said, I urge you NOT to “leave aside the relative merits of the underlying issue.” The realities are undeniable: Eventually IDF will be obliged to take out the Pali “security forces.”
And by take them out, I do NOT mean “take them out to lunch.”
Abrams is terribly myopic to find value in facilitating the development & professionalizing of those elements. He seems to be taking the view that “throwing good money after bad” will keep the bad from getting worse.
He’s wrong. It’s bad enough that the PA is armed with Israeli-provided weaponry. When the Oslo War of 2000 (“al-Aqsa Intifada”) was let loose, Pali security servicemen turned those weapons on their Israeli counterparts with whom they were serving — and shot them. The image has seared itself into my consciousness. . . .
@ Bear Klein:
NO politician ever does ANYTHING not calculated to — among other things — score political points. (Hence the old adage, “politics makes strange bedfellows.”)
Nevertheless, S. 2265 is well-conceived, and — if brought to a vote — will smoke out a lot of lukewarm ‘supporters’ and force hidden congressional enemies to declare themselves.
yamit82 Said:
Leaving aside the relative merits of the underlying issue: what to do with the “Palestinian” security forces, I must say I am persuaded by your amazing recitation of facts in support of your criticisms of Elliot Abrams. I did not know until now that he was such an unworthy, evil person. Now I know, because of all the very convincing facts you have laid before us. I’m deeply chagrined that I did not know that Elliot Abrams was a disgusting “kike” who has done nothing but sit in air conditioned offices working for American interests and against Israeli interests. Your explanation on this point was particularly compelling. I now think, that after all these years, including the near 35 years since his death, that a man we once so highly regarded–Scoop Jackson–must have been equally horrible because, after all, he hired Mr. Abrams early in his career. Likewise, the Podhoretzes, who have given me perhaps my single favorite magazine, Commentary. He is, after all, married into the Podhoretz family. Shame on Elliot for not leaving his cushy jobs and not going on aliyah and donning combat fatigues. Shame on me, for that matter. Shame on Richard Perle, Scoop, Frank Gaffney (who pleads Israel’s cause better than most Jews I know) and all the others. What’s even worse none of them are Orthodox! Gaffney’s not even Jewish!
I guess I’ll have to admit to everyone in America (where I was born and still live) that Israel is more important to me than America. (In reality, as a Jew, I have a special feeling for Israel, like I could never have for America) but I’ll finally have to admit to the dual-loyalty canard and admit to being an Israel-firster just so I won’t be called a kike by some kook in Israel. Believe me, some of my close Israeli friends never have.
I think I’ll go over the Commentary website and catch up…the articles here are good, the kooks who comprise some of the commenters are not.
@ Yidvocate:
Looking elsewhere for greener pastures? I doubt that. I wish it would happen, but it won’t. Israel’s in a real dilemma. Live, for the time being, with the devil you know, or destroy them, and have a terror state ten times worse. It will be eastern Hamastan. Now you want missiles from the “Palestinian” enclaves in J&S? I wish Israel could implement CG’s one state solution, but I don’t think it ever has a chance of happening. I have a better shot at sleeping with Bar Rafaeli than the one state solution occuring. It’s either the two state solution (more or less imposed) or nothing, and I don’t want a two state solution. My ideal solution would be to annex J&S to the Jordan River, and keep the Golan with a line west across southern Lebanon at the Litani as the natural northern border of Israel. Remove as many of the Arabs as possible. That would be the dream solution, but will never happen. Anybody got Bar’s cell #?
yamit82 Said:
Shouldn’t everyone be treated equally ,so the playing is leveled and everyone goes home with a trophy.
Bear Klein Said:
Nothing as dangerous as “well meaning” friends.
Hezbollah, Al Qaeda and Hamas Flags in Jerusalem
Terrorist flags waved at Arab wedding procession in Old City amid shouts of ‘we will write on the pistol: Al-Aqsa is holy to us.’
@ Bear Klein:
I love it when one excuses ‘stupid’ for meaning well.
Video Reveals Fatah Committed to Terrorism, Not Talks
Fatah official back in height of peace talks declared ‘Palestinian blood,’ not negotiations, would ‘bring back Jerusalem.
PA Police to Merge with Hamas Police in Gaza?
Hamas leaders intend to incorporate PA police into its own forces, representatives say, after meeting in Qatar.
The PA will need to be disarmed by the IDF. This may work temporarily but only temporarily.
Rand Paul is surely trying to score political points as he is running for POSTUS and his weakest points are on foreign policy.
Elliot Abrams means well but is not seeing the risk to Israel.
Elliot Abrams,is what we call here a Yudon (dirty Jew, Kike)
He has always worked for American interests against Israeli-interests and has always been shown by hindsight to have been wrong in his assessments yet these perennial failures keep advising how it should be and take no responsibility for their part in past and current failures.
Good to be a diplomat no matter how things turn out you never get blamed and reap the rewards of VIP speakers for a handsome price, books, and cushy jobs in think tanks because of their Washington connections.
Palis American trained Army is cooperative as long as the regime wants them to be and are well paid comparatively in a society with over 40% unemployment. We have had some examples where some of these professional soldiers moonlighted off duty killing Jews. They ceased all cooperation with the IDF when Israel stopped transfer payments which shows the kind of leverage Palis Leaders have in coercion against Israel.
What’s the difference between their tactics and the Mafia in America…It’s called the protection racket.
After Oslo the CIA trained the Terrorists who then used their training against Israel. America forced Israel to allow them to arm ostensibly to fight the terrorist militias but didn’t and fought against Israel.
Now we have a larger organized American trained and armed small army to contend with the next time open hostilities break out which they will sooner or later.
Stupid Jews never learn and keep repeating past mistakes over and over again.
You Kill Enemies not arm them and cooperate with them.
I think he’s wrong!
The US has, with Israel’s delusional consent, built up the PA terror groups into a formidable, coherent professional military force. Everyone knows, or should, that this force will ultimately be directed against Israel.
The only reason to support US aid to the pali-posers is to relieve Israel from having to do so. The pali-posers are the largest welfare recipients on the planet who have received far more aid per capita than any refugee population ever.
Paul’s initiative would create a humanitarian crisis for the pali-posers and perhaps then they might consider looking elsewhere for greener pastures.
I think he’s right.