Have you ever heard of the Jabotinsky song “Two Banks Has the Jordan (River)“?
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It crossed my mind when I read a news item, this one:
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Jordan’s Prince Hassan bin Talal…in the speech, recorded and posted on the Jordandays.tv website,… stressed that the West Bank is part of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, which includes “both banks of the [Jordan] River.” He added that he “did not personally oppose the two-state solution,” but that this solution is irrelevant at the current stage.
For me, it confirmed a geo-political truth I have advocated which can be summarized so:
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to solve the Israel-Arab conflict, territorial compromise cannot be considered unless Jordan is brought into the equation – (the Medad Fraction Principle).
The Prince has now, officially, opened up for Israel to assert its legitimate right to the “East Bank”.
The “West Bank” was illegally occupied by Jordan in 1948 after it illegally invaded the territory set aside by the United Nations to become the “Arab state” as part of the dissolution of the Palestine Mandate. The area was then annexed, illegally, to the Kingdom in April 1950. Jordan itself was part of the original Palestine Mandate territory but Jewish settlement there was banned in 1922 after the British decided in March 1921 to award the territory to Emir Abdallah:
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ART. 25. In the territories lying between the Jordan and the eastern boundary of Palestine as ultimately determined, the Mandatory shall be entitled, with the consent of the Council of the League of Nations, to postpone or withhold application of such provisions of this mandate as he may consider inapplicable to the existing local conditions, and to make such provision for the administration of the territories as he may consider suitable to those conditions, provided that no action shall be taken which is inconsistent with the provisions of Articles 15, 16 and 18.
Is Jordan desirous of wanting to open up the status of the land that was to become the Jewish National home but subsequently withheld from the Zionist enterprise? A land the current ruling family came to from Saudi Arabia only in November 1920, whereas it was part of the Jewish National home, from Biblical times to the current era, as this 1724 map illustrates:
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If the Prince really wants to agenda-raise this matter, I have no problem with that approach.
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@ yamit82:
See how much better when you use the elegant retort. Sorry to scold you, just the school marm in me.
@ CuriousAmerican:
FIFY The real JEWISH MESSIAH has yet to make an appearance. Thought you would like to Know.
@ shachalnur:
Dear Heart, buck-up, I have been called a nazi so often in the Jewish Journal from LA,CA, that I was starting to grow a mushtace.
@ CuriousAmerican
Dear Heart, what Yamit is trying to say [the bad language is not nessesary,Yamit] is that he is weary of sactamonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnious Christians telling Israel how to conduct their affairs.
The Marionites and the Coptics would thrive under an Israeli government. Lebanon would have a an honest govt for the first time in its history.
Where is the border between Africa & Asia. The British moved that line to defend the Zuez canal
I have heard that Josva and Jesus is the same name, Joseph was a builder It was little wood araound so I suppose they used rock. It is posible that Joseph & Jesus was building Decapolis in stone
@ CuriousAmerican:
CA, you seem confused. Possibly you have mixed feelings about Israel and the Jews. Or possibly one set of your principles or interests mutually conflict with the rest of your principles or interests.
I have no such problems. Because I think in precise terms, which I can concisely envision and describe. Which therefore means that I know exactly what I want to see achieved. And because I never have cared about what other people think of me or my opinions, I enjoy the freedom to express what I want in the most direct and honest language; something most Americans of present and recent generations have been fearful of doing.
I want to see a great and powerful Jewish nation embodying and building a great, powerful and permanent Jewish state for the exclusive purpose of furthering the interests of that Jewish nation. My standards are very simple. Whatever helps further and sustain achievement of those goals is good. Whatever hinders those goals is bad. I know of no morality whatsoever that is not contextuated by what I have described here. I have never felt conflicted by any of this, and I have never felt any form of guilt or shame. Which makes me a difficult man to argue with.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
@ CuriousAmerican:
“In 1620 the Catholic Church purchased an area in the Nazareth basin measuring approx. 100 m × 150 m (328.08 ft × 492.13 ft) on the side of the hill known as the Nebi Sa’in. This “Venerated Area” underwent extensive excavation in 1955-65 by the Franciscan priest Bellarmino Bagatti, “Director of Christian Archaeology.” Fr. Bagatti uncovered pottery dating from the Middle Bronze Age (2200 to 1500 BC) and ceramics, silos and grinding mills from the Iron Age (1500 to 586 BC) which indicated substantial settlement in the Nazareth basin at that time. However, lack of archaeological evidence for Nazareth from Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Hellenistic or Early Roman times, at least in the major excavations between 1955 and 1990, shows that the settlement apparently came to an abrupt end about 720 BC, when many towns in the area were destroyed by the Assyrians.”
That verse will not take effect until the Moshiach returns.
The author of this article Daoud Kuttab is as myopic as any Arab and is apparently blind to what is happening in virtually every country in the ME. Israel will allow them Jordan under any name and any administering authority. That is our minimalist position. We don’t expect to have any long term peace with such an entity and will eventually in response from their attacks on us drive them into Iraq allowing Israel to expand and annex another piece of Greater Israel on our drive to the Euphrates. The overthrow of Saddam Hussein and the eventual division of Iraq wil help to Filisate our territorial mandate.
You seem to number me with the haters, which I am not.
You seem to be the hateful one.
That being said – and I know you will go nuts over this this – I admire the Lebanese Maronite Christians, even though some of their theology I disagree with.
The thought that they, the Maronites, who have NOT been hostile to Israel, should have their land taken is problematic to me.
I have no problem if you take up the Litani, provided you do not dump the Shia on the Maronites to the north side of the Litani.
You think I object to Israel taking Judea and Samaria.
I do not have any objections.
Only start to enfranchise the Arabs on the land over time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazareth#Ancient_times
Nazareth was around when Jesus was alive, despite your objections.
And yes! JESUS IS PROUDLY MY DEITY.
I could add more, but Ted would get upset.
@ yamit82:
I was referring to the map depicted below the Blue one. The maps I linked to are more accurate than the ones in the article above.
@ yamit82:
The map in question was the tribal map not the borders promised in the Tanach nor the Lands conquered by our Jewish Kings. One thing has nothing to do with the other. Israel need not embark on wars of conquest. We need only wait for our enemies to attack or threaten us. Then using those opportunities we should conquer those lands and annex them to Israel. Little by little in that way we will achieve and restore Greater Israel to the Jewish nation. When we are territorially complete then we can expect The Messiah, who will rebuild the Temple and renew the sacrificial tradition.
So said the Lord of Hosts: In those days, when ten men of all the languages of the nations shall take hold of the skirt of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”
@ CuriousAmerican:
Can’t depend on that book. They speak of Nazareth which never existed during the lifetime that your book claims your deity lived but much later historically.
I for one don’t give a shit about the British Mandate or even Balfour. My authority is the Tanach and my ancient relatives deed to the land which they never relinquished gave away or shared with any other people or religion.
“To your descendants I have given this land, from the Egyptian River as far as the great river, the Euphrates.”
Bereshit (Genesis) 15:18
“In the beginning G-d created heaven and earth.” Breshit (Genesis) 1:1
The entire world belongs to G-d, He created it and He choose to give the Land of Israel to the Jewish People.”
Of course
AGAIN! I am not being critical, but who give a flying turd what the vile shitty British said or gave or took back. Lebanon is ours and we will get it back. I do hope when it comes to be you are still alive. Love to see Jew haters choke on their own bile.
Should have read this comment first. You do want South Lebanon.
I am not going to say you are right or wrong. Ancient Israel did control what is today South Lebanon.
But why did/do Zionists use the Mandate as an authority for their demands, if they themselves do not feel bound by the Mandate lines?
If you base your claim to Israel on both sides of the Jordan because of the Mandate, you must – by virtue of that same Mandate – respect Lebanon’s claim to South Lebanon, south of the Litani River.
If your claim is the Bible, Israel’s control over the Negev was not clear – as that map shows.
I am not criticizing your claims, just your inconsistent arguments.
If I am not mistaken, that area in blue goes up to the Litani River.
The Litani may have been part of ancient historic, biblical Israel, but it was not part of the British Mandate.
In sny event, just curious, are you asserting a claim to South Lebanon.
The early Zionists wanted all the way up to the Litani River. But the British and French would not agree. South Lebanon remained in Lebanese han ds, though the Zionists managed to get Safed/Al-Maliqiyya in exchange for the Golan Heights which were given to the French.
Many Zionists complained that the Golan was even given to France, but the flip side, Safed taken from Lebanon in exchange is rarely mentioned.
The Blue map seems to indicate more a map of Zionist wishes that what the British Mandate really gave.
AGAIN! I am not being critical. Just observant. The Litani River runs close to the Israeli border anyway.
Shachalnur,
I am not interested in solutions, but only in protracted conflict with the Arabs in particular and the Islamic world in general. Because only a protracted conflict provides both the justification and the necessity for Israel to permanently maintain an expansionist policy, without which, no Israeli government will muster the courage to take, hold and consolidate enemy lands which the Jewish nation needs in order to expand and build its national power base.
National power, and that alone, is the only solution which the Jewish nation needs to pursue. And that can only happen if such a course of action is deemed unavoidable. Therefore, I want permanent conflict, or at least its threat, to be unavoidable.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
“No solution,unless Jordan is brought into the equation”.
I wrote this theory last week,and I was called a Nazi.
Howzat?
I’m with you solidly in regard to that old map, Ted. However, present and all but certain future circumstances render that map incomplete by about two-thirds or more.
Israel needs sufficient land spaces to house a population of more than 25 million Jews, plus whatever number of non-Jews who will want to unitize tyne obvious advantages of living in state which combines the rule of law, modern education and medical care, a rapidly growing 21st century scientific-industrial economy, and relative freedom of religious faith. That large population, roughly quadruple the present Jewish population in Israel of some 6+ million, has been doubling approximately every 35-36 years. If this trend continues, and I can see no demography-based reason why it cannot, then this expansion — unprecedented in the 3 or 4 millennia of our Jewish nation — then this expectation can be achieved well before the end of the present century.
For starters, Israel must annex and nationally absorb all Sjomron and Yehuda, starting with Area C and connective parts of Area B of the now crumbling Oslo Accprds.
The next step should be the augmentation of the Golan area so that Israel shall permanently control all parts of Mount Hermon and the slopes around it, plus the lands south of the Litani River gorge in southern Lebanon, which can be taken when — not if — that moribund state breaks up as Syria is now doing.
After that, the Sinai peninsula must be retaken and this time permanently annexed and large-scale Jewish settlement started, but this time with no further retreats under what always have proven to be the false promises of US presidential administrations going back to the Eisenhower era. Given time, the Moslem Brotherhood will start the war which will provide the excuse Israel may want to have to trap yet another of their armies in the Sinai wasteland.
A great American city planner of the 19th century admonished us to make no small plans, and as a trained city and regional planner, I always have taken that advice seriously.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI