T. Belman. I am not surprised by this, only thankful. I saw it coming but didn’t know when exactly. When promoting the Jordan Option, I always mentioned that it would mean the end of the PA and UNWRA. I thought that Jordan’s King Abdullah would fall first. I still believe he won’t last a year.
The White House has decided to quietly withdraw from all its ties with the Ramallah-based Palestinian Authority and Mahmoud Abbas.
DEBKAfile’s exclusive sources report that the Trump administration has resolved to scrap all ties with the Palestinian leadership in retaliation for its campaign against US President Donald Trump and his Jerusalem policy. Several warnings to Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen) of what was in store if he did not desist from castigating the US president fell on death ears.
Last week, two Arab crown princes, Saudi Muhammed bin Salman and UAE Sheikh Muhammed bin Zayed, summoned Abbas to their capitals and urged him strongly to back away from his attacks on President Trump. He got the same advice from the ruler of Qatar, Sheikh Tamim Al Thani, who conferred with Washington on the subject – all to no avail. The Trump administration has therefore set out an eight-point program of sanctions, which is first revealed here:
-
- The Israeli-Palestinian peace plan under preparation in Washington will not be submitted to Ramallah – only to Israel and the relevant Arab governments.
- US-Palestinian interaction is to be suspended – not just at the senior levels but in day-to-day interchanges. The administration has notified Palestinian and other Arab parties to stop addressing queries on political and economic matters to the US consulate in Jerusalem, because they will not receive answers.
- The status of the PLO office in Washington will be reevaluated with a view to shutting it down.
- Palestinian officials will no longer be invited to Washington by the US government, including the State Department and Department of Treasury.
- Above all, they will not be welcome at the White House or the National Security Council where US Middle East policy is designed. Senior US officials congratulated the senior Palestinian negotiator Saab Erekat, who also holds the PA’s American portfolio, on his recovery from illness, at the same time warning him that he would no longer be received at the White House.
- The Trump administration will not make any public announcement of the cutoff of financial aid to the Palestinians. Since the funds are mostly earmarked for specific economic projects, each allocation will simply be held back on the pretext of the need for a “reappraisal.”
- The US will halt its contributions to the UN Work and Relief Organization, an estimated one billion dollars per annum.
- The US administration moreover intervened with the governments of Saudi Arabia, Abu Dhabi and Qatar with a request that they freeze or slow their economic aid to the Palestinian Authority.
According DEBKAfile’s sources, Palestinian officials in Ramallah were devastated by news of the sudden cutoff of the main sources of the PA’s revenue. Even the Qatar ruler, whom Abbas visited last week as a last resort to save the PA from economic meltdown, refused to release any more funding.
@ Edgar G.:
You are getting mixed up. I mentioned the Pechenegs first. You click on the @somebody and it goes back to the comment being responded to. You asked what about the Khazars? Right?
I said that I never heard of the Khazars before, late in life, anti-semites began throwing them in my face.
And now the Vangarian Guard. First time you are mentioning them. Never heard of ’em.
The version I learned as a boy didn’t have any of these other peoples except the Magyars went from China to Turkestan, where their neighbors were Turks and Pechenegs. The Turks taught them to ride horses but the Pechenegs drove them out.
The Magyars are distant cousins of the Huns.
When they got to Pannonia it was inhabited by Celts. Don’t know what happened to the Celts, were they absorbed, driven out?
Later they were invaded and occupied by everybody.
@ Sebastien Zorn:
Never heard of whom, the Varangian Guard or the Petchenegs. The Varangian Guard were a specially picked corps of strong fighters I think just about all Vikings who guarded the Byzantine King. As I said earlier Harald Hardrada, nearly 7 ft. tall, was their leader for many years until he gained the succession to the throne of \norway and was called back hime. As I said he died at Stamford Hill battle in Yorkshire and was the cause of Harald Godwinson, the British King being drawn away from the southern coast where he was waiting for William of Normandy to try to land. A wonderful, but sad story.
The Petchenegs originated somewhere in Asia or thereabouts and were one of the peoples who was impelled by being pushed along, to enter arounf the Caspian and southwards, meeting the Bulgars and the Magyars, whom they drwove out of their settled land. They were all subjects of thr Khazars. I think it was Michael who mentioned the Petchenegs and that reference was intended for him. I’ve read a lot about them all for many years now. Atil, which I mentioned was being excavated, was the Khazar Capital.
At one time the only mention of the Khazars was that letter from Hasdai Ibn Shapirut to them, and the reply from Joseph the Kagan, (king) to Hasdai. which was considered a forgery, but later authenticated. I believ that they had 2 levels of rulers of which one was called the Kagan Can’t recall the title f the other.
@ Edgar G.:
I didn’t comment because I agreed with you. It’s a very good point.
@ Edgar G.:
Never heard of them. Only heard of Khazars because of the attempt to use them to deny our connection to Eretz Israel.
As for being far afield, I just answered a point you two were discussing, but what does any of this have to do with US relations and aid to the PA being cut?
@ Sebastien Zorn:
You’ve mentioned the Pechenegs (who drove out the Magyars) but what about the Bulgars….. and the Khazars ..? They were all under the same Khazarian rule for a couple of centuries.
Anyway, enough of this, it’s leading us astray but I used to belong to a society who sent me reports on the progress of excavations that had begun at Atil. I found them absorbing for several years.
Off the subject…The Varangian Guard,..Harald Hardrada…..Amazing story that the Russians were descended from early Vikings, who were called Rus. I have a few books on this, and exactly how they came up the (Western) Dvina River, (right on the banks of which my dear father lived) portaged to the headwaters of a Dnieper tributary,and down to Byzantium..Fascinating description of how they rolled the emptied ships on logs for 20 miles..etc…. I think Michael has got me into the bad habit of straying off into ………
@ Edgar G.:
Apparently there is no longer any consensus on any of this. This article disagrees with both of you, suggesting the Magyars are somehow indigenous to Hungary.
http://www.chicagohungarians.com/radics/Origin1.
And the version I learned as a boy (I am of Hungarian descent, my father is an immigrant and my mother, though American, is fluent, and I had a Hungarian nanny and two Hungarian godfathers, a great uncle and some Hungarian-American cousins — ethnically, Israel, Shoah, matzoh ball soup and Woody Allen (you know, the four pillars of Judaism, and not necessarily in that order), aside — I grew more up more self-aware of being a Hungarian than anything else, intensely so, I might add, though it kind of feels like another life-time, if even if I only speak a few words (It was the secret adult language, instead of asking the kids to leave the room, as Yiddish was for my Mom, growing up. [So, we all grew up and left the room for good, little irony there. “The Road to hell is paved with good intentions, eh?”]
Here’s the version I learned.
The proto-Magyars emigrated from the Xiang-Xiang region of China (where the Muslim huighurs currently live) to Turkestan at some point where the Turks taught them how to ride horses (this is before they left for Turkey) and the Pechenegs drove them out.
They became the last of the mobile marauding tribes to ransack Europe in the 9th century and settled down in the predominantly Celtic Roman province of Pannonia, which the Romans called Hungaria because the distant cousins of the Magyars, the Huns under Attila had briefly occupied it earlier before being driven out.
St. Stephen, whose crown, aptly styled with a double-cross, is the symbol of Hungarian sovereignty executed the high priests, in a manner forshadowing the gruesome Vlad Tepes, and re-organized the country as a carbon copy of his Christian neighbors overnight. He imported architects, scribes, changed the official language to Latin — Hungaria is the Latin, Magyororszag or land of the Magyar is still the name in Hungarian, which was the language of the common people, intermarried with foreign nobility, adopted their foods and customs, switched to feudal land and peasant/lord relationships to get the blessing of the pope so his neighbors would stop invading and raiding, Hungary, which comprised most of what would become the Austrian empire, was the biggest country in Europe. He got it.
And was promptly invaded by non-Christian peoples like the Mongols and the Turks, who occupied everything but Transylvania for 150 years.
They rebelled, were joined by the Austrians, Won!
And then were occupied by Austria for 350 years.
Hungary, that land that loves to lose.
My upbringing in a nutshell.
Not that the nanny was much help. She didn’t speak much English. Was an artistic old lady who escaped Hungary in ’56.
A philo-semitic minor Hungarian aristocrat who carried ornate little crucifixes and a mezuzah in her wallet but told me her real religion was Mazaztlan, the suppressed indigenous religion of the Magyars: Zoroastrianism and who knew unique peasant healing recipes.
@ Michael S:
I don’t want to be drowned in sometimes out-of-context Wikipaedia, by all kinds of irrelevancies, and as the saying goes.-in Dublin annyway-..”smuddered with siyince”…. Desist from your over-enthusiastic opening of the floodgates (no pun) of the collected wisdom of Wiki. Or…like Queen Mary of England (Henry”s second successor) WIKI will be found “engraved on my heart”….
@ Michael S:
Michael, dear lad, It is absolutely NOT neccessary to give us a droshoh directly from Wiki. We can look it up ourselves. And I just did, and went much further afield, to find that the Finno-Ugaric language originated in the Ural mountains about 11,000 years ago, and the Magyars, went on the southern side of the divide and the Finn/Estonians went on the Northern side, about 4.500 years ago.
The Hungarians have manuscripts extant from the 9th cent. 1200 years ago, and it’s certain that they were writing them hundreds of years before that.
1000 years ago England was already ruled by William of Normandy and his successors, Charlemagne and the Carolingian Dynasty had come and gone, France were ruled by the Capets for the next 350 years, etc. The Magyars had already long emerged from the domination of the Khazars, and were an independent country by the end of the 9th century,. the Finns/Estonians were subservient to the Swedes and other Baltic powers, And there is documentary evidence for them all, including those which were amalgamated or assimilated.
@ Sebastien Zorn:
Absolutely correct Sebastien. Michael sometimes diffuses matters with extraneous enlargements. A bad habit he has.
@ Edgar G.:
I REPEAT this serious post-which nobody noticed and comment on……expecting some of our undoubted brainiacs to respond, comment, and suggest solutions…..
If the YESHA Arabs are cut off and have no more contact with Trump, we won’t have the always reliable Arabs to turn down the “Peace Plan”.; and if, as is said, he’s resolved to present it to Israel only, How will Israel turn it down without offending Mr. Trump.
We don’t want the detestable “Peace Plan” any more than the Arabs do, but never have had to find a way to turn it down, whilst the Arabs were there to do it, and we insincerely wore the mantle of “pursuers of the 2 state solution”…………
Michael S Said:
an anti-semite is no more someone who hates semites than a civilization is a city state or anti-pasto is someone who hates pasta of the male persuasion. That’s why it has its own heading under A in the dictionary. It is accepted to mean what it was coined to mean in Germany by Wilhelm Marr in 1879, somebody who hates Jews. Muslims and leftists seek to remove it from the dictionary. It’s a form of Holocaust denial. But Judeophobe or Israelophobe probably answers the contemporary left better with emotional ly resonant words.
@ Michael S:
The fat lady is not so fat. Anyway, American taxpayers should fund neither PA nor UN.
@ Michael S:
Germans are Germans, nothing changed. Against Jews they are even ready to cooperate with Muslims.
@ Edgar G.:
Written records on all languages go back no further than about 6000 years, curiously coinciding with the span of Bible chronologies. Languages such as Finnish and Hungarian have records going back something on the order of only 1,000 years.
Languages (the Tower of Babel story notwithstanding) have tended to diverge quite fast. Even Latin and Sanskrit, whose phonetic transcriptions are with us today, have evolved into French, Spanish, Romanian, Hindi-Urdu, Bengali, Marathi and many other dialects. Both those ancient languages can be confidently grouped into the “Indo-European” language group.
Studying linguistic divergence further back than this is sketchy, based on rather loose similarities. The “biggest net” classification I have seen, groups Indo-European, Finno-Ugric (which contains Finnish and Hungarian), Altaic, Eskimo and many Siberian languages in one group. More distantly related are 1. the Afroasiatic languages, including Hebrew, Arabic, Assyrian and others, 2. Kartvelian and related languages, mostly in modern Georgia, and 3. ancient Elamite and the modern Dravidian languages.
Hurro-Urartian, Chechen-Ingush and some other kindred languages, have been loosely grouped by some with Sino-Tibetan, with the American Navajo, Athabascan and related languages, and some others. Ancient Sumerian seems to be an isolate. I mentioned it in a previous post. The Basque language of Spain and France also seems to be an isolate. Ancient Etruscan, which is attested to only in some inscriptions, seems related to the ancient language of the Aegean island of Lemnos. It may have been the language of the people mentioned in the Bible as “Tiras”. Other ancient groups, such as the Kassites, Ligurians and Iberians, survive as place names and little else.
You might have noticed that I did not try to connect my own ancestors, Indo-European speakers of haplogroup R1b, with the Biblical patriarchs. Genealogies in the Bible go back only to Adam, about 6000 years ago. It is VERY reasonable to assume that other peoples survived the Biblical flood event. Those people did not write the Bible, though; Adam’s descendants did.
@ Edgar G.:
More of the stream of thought…
“And I just discovered from Wiki (whilst out of curiosity, looking up the 4 Rivers, Pishon Gihon Tigris and Euphrates (the one I didn’t recall was the Pishon), that the South- Eastern Turkey you mentioned is actually the HOMELAND of the ancient Assyrians, and I don’t know why you brought it in. Nothing to do with the Cohanim or the Hebrews that I could find. Maybe you found something.”
The connection with the Cohanim is this: Jews have some of the most diverse DNA in the world, especially their male-transmitted yDNA. The mix is typical of the Middle East in general, with some admixture from lands the Jews traveled through. The DNA of the Cohanim is very different from that of Jews in general, almost certainly because of the ritual importance of that group (which continues to this day). About half of them share yDNA in a close statistical cluster within the “J1” haplogroup.
This shows that the Biblical male-line relatives of Aaron and Moses, namely, all the patriarchs, probably back to Adam, were of the J1 haplogroup. That group is concentrated in all the areas listed as countries in Genesis 10. Here’s a good map of the distribution of that haplogroup:
http://thegeneticatlas.com/J1.png
Notice the very tight clusters in Israel and in the Chchen-Ingush region of the Caucasus. Other places, such as the Marsh country of Iraq, Yemen-Asir and a small cluster in Sudan (possibly Nubians, but I will not speculate here) are all in areas mentioned in Gen. 10, and may have been concentrated through “founder effects”. The cluster in the Caucasus, however, is intriguing, because there is also a very close linguistic connection between modern Chechen and Ingush, on the one hand, and the ancient Hurrian language spoken in the homeland of Abraham’s family.
Concerning the Haran area, yes. It was the homeland of the ancient Assyrians, of the Mittani and of the Hebrews. The recent discovery of Ebla, which at one time ruled over Haran, confirms this.
@ Edgar G.:
Back to you, Edgar. You said,
“And you’re bringing in the story of Gilgamesh and the Flood, although you don’t mention this.”
I know the legend of Gilgamesh, which was VERY popular in ancient Iraq and closely parallels the Biblical account; but no, I am not bringing it in. I am referring strictly to the Bible.
@ yamit82:
Hi, Yamit. Pardon my scepticism, but let me see if you are more honorable than Edgar.
“THE USA IS MAGOG (FAR NORTH) and the Bush’s are GOG”
Magog is indeed described, in Ezekiel for that matter, as being in the “far north”; and you are treating the location metaphorically. That is fair enough. You also treat Magog as PLACE and Gog as a PERSON, something many have failed to do. In this, I commend you greatly.
From this point, you stop talking about history and geography, and discuss current affairs. Therefore, let me “change hats”. I will remove my yarmulke and put on my mythical “MAG red hat”. Let me try to follow you… You said,
“Since 1979, US foreign policy towards Iraq has been consistently pro-Islamist, pro-terrorist, and pro-Iranian.
The effect of US policy in Iraq was to strengthen Islamist terrorism in general, and Iranian Islamism in particular.”
Effectively, that has been the case — either through design or through incompetence. You continued,
“The US ruling elite favors the spread of Iranian-style Islamist terrorism, but cannot tell this to the American public, because the American public would be horrified to find that its own government is sponsoring the spread of Islamist terrorism.”
I guess Col. Oliver North could tell us a thing or two about this. I think I love the American ruling elite about as much as you do. Yes, they have sponsored terrorism whenever it’s been convenient, as have the Russians, Germans, Chinese, Israelis, Arabs, Vietnamese, you name it. Concerning nuclear weapons, I would go so far as to say that many in the Globalist ruling clique would bargain away the lives of their own relatives, for a chance to make a quick dollar.
“…US officials are misleading the American public…”
You’re preaching to the choir.
“…because it destabilizes the Asian giants — Russia (earlier, the Soviet Union), China, and India — which compete with the US for power there.”
Bush gussied that stuff up, with idealistic talk. President Trump has been more straightforward; and I think the Russians, Chinese and Indian leaders appreciate it. In summary, you said,
“1) that the highly probable outcome of this US intervention will be to make Iran the regional Islamist hegemon…”
Here, you and I differ you are talking about probabilities, based on recent past performance. In politics, as in economics, you know that this is a dangerous path to tread. I feel MUCH more comfortable, judging the immediate future by Biblical prophecy. Maybe I’ll elaborate here; but let me continue…
“that this will be consistent with all previous US policy towards Iraq and Iran since 1979…”
OK. That is in agreement with what I just said. You went on,
“1) that Muslim fundamentalism is antisemitic…”
Semantically, that is an oxymoron. I imagine you mean “anti-Jewish”, and I fully concur.
“2) that there has always been a very close relationship between the Iranian mullahs and the PLO…”
Do you think so? I picture all world leaders as “frienemies”, Sometimes the Fatah Folk are close to the Iranians, sometimes to the Saudis… It all turns my stomach.
“3) that the Iranian president of late has been making loud calls for Israel to be “wiped off the map,”[7] which is precisely what the PLO Charter has also always called for…”
Yes, I agree with all this. Nevertheless, I see Turkey attacking Israel, LEADING a coalition with Iran, Sudan and Libya. George W. Bush may have FIGURATIVELY been “a” Gog; but I think the Bible more clearly zeroes in on Erdogan.
I don’t doubt, that Iran poses an immediate threat to Israel. It is a threat that is discounted by military planners on all sides, I believe, even among the IRG; because if the Iranians attacked today, with the rag-tag coalition they command, the Israelis would knock their socks off.
Now, I’m still wearing my red hat, no yarmulke: If Iran manages to stumble into a full-blown war with Israel, there is a good chance that southern Syria and Lebanon will become Israeli-occupied territory. President Erdogan would see this as a wide-open door, complete with “WELCOME” mat.
That may be the scenario; or events may pan out some other way; but I check the news almost daily, to see how things are progressing.
Shalom shalom.
@ Edgar G.:
Good morning, Edgar; and good morning, gentlemen!
I just woke up, and am trying to wade through several posts here. I already notice something very refreshing that you said, namely,
“…what I already saw an hour or two ago when I looked [it] up…”
That tells me I am in the company of serious scholars — something rare nowadays, even in universities 🙂
“…deceptive and specious..!” I take back what I just said. Now you’re writing like a common troll. I know little about you, save that you once had a school blazer and a boater, and come from Ireland; but I have given you a detailed account of myself, fully honest and verifiable; yet you call me “deceptive?” Shame on you 🙁
Ionia was the center of Greek culture, dating back to the time of Thales; so don’t try to DECEPTIVELY try to separate it from Greece proper. By the ALL CAPS, you can see that I am losing patience with you.
This ends a useless exchange with Edgar, who does not want an honest conversation.
Notwithstanding Debka’s sometimes less than perfect reporting. Let us examine the likelihood of the most important part of their article coming to pass.
One Abbas has already cut the USA off from contact. The USA certainly will not be bending over for him and beg him to talk to them. So Abbas will not have any influence with the USA.
USA is looking to make good on Trump’s threat to cut aid to those opposing him at the UN. PA would be first on the list especially since everday Abbas and his people are denouncing Trump. Never known Trump to back down.
Taylor-Force Bill has passed the USA House and it mandates cutting funds to terror sponsors. Trump backs this and it should become law. Also seperately Trump demanded PA stop paying terrorists or lose USA funding. Abbas refused.
So this could be the beginning of the end of the PA and UNRWA. That is significant. The end of the experiment of creating a Pal State in the Land of Israel.
What happens next after the collapse the PA I do not know. I know what I would like to happen. Israel recapture Area A/B. Destroy all terror groups and support systems. This would be a continuation of somethings that have been happening with the Shin Bet lately rolling up terror cells in large numbers.
I would like to Israel expand building in Jordan Valley (some plans have been already created) plus build elsewhere in Judea/Samaria. Expel all terror supporters.
Create an NGO to start buying peaceful Pals out and their property and having them move out of the Land of Israel. Start in Area C and East Jerusalem. Clear whole villages and neighborhoods. Sell these lands and property to Jews. Recycle the monies to buy out more Arabs.
@ Edgar G.:
Yes, Finnish and Hungarian belong to the Finno-Ugric language group (as opposed to, say, Romance Languages) of the Ural-Altaic Division of Languages (as opposed to say, Indo-European.) Their oldest words are related. Though Hungarian also has some German grammatical overlay on top as they were occupied by Austria for 400 years.
@ Edgar G.:
And talking of languages being distantly related to others, I recall as a very young boy, probably barmitzvah age, finding out that Magyar, the Hungarian language is closely related to only one other existing country, Finland. There was much speculation as to how far back the relationship reached, as for all of history and pre-history, there were roughly 1500 miles of impenetrable forest intervening. It was fascinating to me, especially when years later, I happened to have a Finnish girl-friend, and when we were tired of doing this-or-that, we would talk about this strange language tie-in. I don’t recall we found any solution. In fact that’s how we became close. When I met her, I began talking about this language thing, and she was impressed that I would have known anything about such an elusive subject. I didn’t know much, but neither did she.
@ Edgar G.:
And I just discovered from Wiki (whilst out of curiosity, looking up the 4 Rivers, Pishon Gihon Tigris and Euphrates (the one I didn’t recall was the Pishon), that the South- Eastern Turkey you mentioned is actually the HOMELAND of the ancient Assyrians, and I don’t know why you brought it in. Nothing to do with the Cohanim or the Hebrews that I could find. Maybe you found something. .
@ Edgar G.:
And the Gyges and Lydia stuff and all or most of the rest is only and suggestion I think they mention.. They don’t really know that it is fact.
And you’re bringing in the story of Gilgamesh and the Flood, although you don’t mention this.
@ Michael S:
THE USA IS MAGOG (FAR NORTH) and the Bush’s are GOG
George W. Bush attacked Iraq in order to ensure the continued growth of Islamist terrorism in the Middle East.
Since 1979, US foreign policy towards Iraq has been consistently pro-Islamist, pro-terrorist, and pro-Iranian.
The effect of US policy in Iraq was to strengthen Islamist terrorism in general, and Iranian Islamism in particular.
The US ruling elite favors the spread of Iranian-style Islamist terrorism, but cannot tell this to the American public, because the American public would be horrified to find that its own government is sponsoring the spread of Islamist terrorism.
Of course, this interpretation requires believing that US officials are misleading the American public. Shocking as that idea may be, Jared Israel of Emperor’s Clothes has already produced a mountain of documentation and analysis to support his hypothesis that US geostrategy in Asia is generally geared towards the promotion of Islamist terrorism because it destabilizes the Asian giants — Russia (earlier, the Soviet Union), China, and India — which compete with the US for power there. The strategy works because the Asian giants have Muslim populations on their borders, inside and outside, so sponsoring Islamist terrorist movements in Asia is conducive to producing border conflicts and civil wars that drive these large countries to collapse.
In sum, given
1) that the highly probable outcome of this US intervention will be to make Iran the regional Islamist hegemon; and
2) that this will be consistent with all previous US policy towards Iraq and Iran since 1979 (as I will aim to show),
then it is reasonable to conclude that fostering the spread of Islamist terrorism has been the real goal of Bush Jr.’s war on Iraq.
Moreover, given
1) that Muslim fundamentalism is antisemitic;
2) that there has always been a very close relationship between the Iranian mullahs and the PLO (as we shall see); and
3) that the Iranian president of late has been making loud calls for Israel to be “wiped off the map,”[7] which is precisely what the PLO Charter has also always called for,
then if the US abandons Iraq to Iran it gets harder to argue that US foreign policy is pro-Israel, doesn’t it.[8]
http://www.hirhome.com/iraniraq/iraq-general-intro.htm
@ yamit82:
Yes I know and thoroughly agree with you. I did the same checking.up. I recall several very strong articles and posts on Debka’s “shots-in-the-dark”, several years ago already, so that I no stopped including it in my daily reading.
My comment about it above, in response to yours, is touching speculation, based on reasonable assumption.
@ Michael S:
The research into the origin of the Hebrew People, seems to run only in one direction..Canaan, far back past the investigation into the track of the Cohanim, which showed that the “Aharon” set of genetic markers is traceable back about 3400 years, around the time just before the Exodus is supposed to have taken place.
I’ve just read 4 different studies, and nowhere is Southeastern Turkey mentioned. So we are on two separate tracks Michael. By co-incidence I read the study tracing the Hebrews to Canaan and east of there, about 2-3 weeks ago. I glanced through another study which had come to the same conclusion. They are all over the internet, although some are demonstrably flawed, and polemical.
@ Edgar G.:
Or some heavy stretching of faint co-incidences of similar sounding words. If i didn’t know better I’d suspect that you were a British-Israelite, whose favourite “proof” that they are one of the Lost 10 Tribes is that “Brit-Ish” is the Hebrew for “Covenant Man”….. Can you beat that….!!
That’s something of interest we might care to discuss sometime, the Lost 10 Tribes. Because they were’nt “lost” except that they were taken from Israel and brought to another known area. Also the whole Tribes weren’t taken, only selected leaders and craftsmen etc. And they were not as many as 10, but likely not more than about 5-6
Off the top of my head , Benjamin was absorbed by Judah, as were Simeon, and Dan, likely Ephraim also. Levi had no given land, And the other “Lost” tribes were taken to Assyria and dispersed around Nineveh and wider. The remainder, left in the shattered Kingdom of Israel, became Samaritans mixing in with the pagans that Assyria dumped there in place of the exiled ones. Probably dubious or those the Assyrians wanted to get rid of. A common practice of ancient conquerors.
Anyway I’ll stop here as it might be of no interest to you.
@ Michael S:
Your solution referring to Gyges and Lydia are what I already saw an hour or two ago when I looked up where else they were mentioned. I knew they were in Berasheet. @ Michael S:
Now you are being deceptive and specious. You KNOW I referred only to “Gog and MaGog”. You KNOW I didn’t mean other names like “Mizraim”. ” MiTzraim” is the Hebrew for Egypt. And we come across many YESHA and Israel Arabs with a last name of El-Misri or Masri etc. which means their family is Egyptian, not Southern Syrian (as they used to regard Israel) .
All that stuff you reel off as to the names being names of countries like -Jovan being Greek…. (actually it means Ionian, it being one of the 4 major early Greek tribes who later composed the Greek People), so it only indirectly can mean Greek-or Greece.
As I was going to say, all that stuff you reel off I could have done myself -if I’d looked it up on Wikipaedia………./?????!!
So, like the sitcom Get Smart…I say..Get Real. Don’t hornswoggle me. ….!
I just cannot believe that single names of supposed progeny of original Man, would just happen to be the name later of a whole country. There is definitely some myth wandering around there.
@ yamit82:
Yamit,
I agree with your estimation of DEBKA.
@ Michael S:
Edgar, I would like to post this while I still have the site up on my monitor:
“ISSN 1540-8779
Version: 3 December 2014
Lexical Matches between Sumerian and Hurro-Urartian:
Possible Historical Scenarios
Alexei Kassian
Institute of Linguistics of the Russian Academy of Sciences, Moscow”
It’s online at
https://cdli.ucla.edu/files/publications/cdlj2014_004.pdf
If you ever do serious research into the roots of the Hebrew people, you should certainly read this. The Hebrews, of course, are associated with “Eber” of Gen. 10, which name is mentioned often in the archaeological digs at Ebla. Ebla, in turn, ruled over the city of Haran when Abraham lived there. It is located today in southern Turkey, and was originally associated with the Hurrian people. They spoke a Hurro-Urartian language, distantly related to today’s Chechens and Ingushes in the Caucasus — peoples who are extremely closely related to the Jewish clan of Cohanim.
The land of Uraurtu corresponds to the “mountains of Ararat”, of the flood story. In the Biblical account, the survivors of the flood migrated from there to the “Land of Shinar”, which is identified with Sumer. The results of the Russian study I cited, show the very close connection between the Sumerians and these “flood people”, testifying to that early contact.
You might also notice from Genesis,
Genesis 2:
[10] And a river went OUT of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
This places Eden at the SOURCE of four great rivers, one of which is identified as Euphrates. It confirms, along with the “mountains of Ararat” reference, that Eden was identified with what later became the Hurrians and the Kingdom of Urartu.
This is confirmed by genetic evidence:
https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J1.gif
Notice that haplogroup J1, the yDNA group of the Cohanim, is focused on southeastern Turkey and the surrounding countries. This is the homeland not only of the Cohanim, but of all Aaron’s close relatives, namely, the Jews. The other nations mentioned in Genesis 10, including Magog, also come from these regions.
@ Ted Belman:
That’s a puzzle to me as I AM logged in always. but I have captcha. If I were not logged in I wouldn’t be able to post anything, in fact the box in which the posts are written would not appear. So it is a double puzzle. I’m writing this post and saw most of the Captcha above.now almost gone as the post gets more lengthy. It was ?X3=15, and before I can post this, I must complete the math. If I didn’t, as sometimes has happened, a notice would ask me to use the back arrow and complete the captcha.
@ Edgar G.:
With all due respect for Debka ( very mixed bag for accuracy ) I Googled his Headline and variations and got zip….. Hard to believe Debka is more inside the WH than all other media sources…..They have been found to be wrong in their expose’s than right but it makes attractive headlines and garners clicks by users increasing their on-line revenues…….. Rumors have connected Debka with the Mossad and might explain much of their disinformation.
@ Edgar G.:
Hi, Edgar.
No, I am not referring to “Gog and Magog” in Revelation. In that case, that expression is simply a metaphor for “the ends of the earth”. My reference is strictly in Ezekiel, which mentions the land of Magog many times, and “Gog” in chs. 38-39. There, “Gog” is simply the Hebrew for “Gugu” in Assyrian and “Gyges” in Greek, both of them referring to the king of Lydia (in what is now western Turkey, including Ankara).
Gog is also mentioned in Genesis 10, in the list of nations:
Genesis 10:
[2] The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.
Like the other nations mentioned there, these places are hardly mythical. Gomer was the Cimerii; Madai was the Medes; Javan was the Ionians (hence the Greeks); Tubal was Tabal, a Neo-Hittite state in southern Turkey; Meshech was the “Mosocheni” of Cappadocia. All those “Sons of Japheth” were located in what is now Turkey, so it is reasonable to assume that Magog was as well. Its most likely identity is the former Hittite Empire. That empire was destroyed millennia ago; but the land it sat upon hasn’t gone anywhere.
Many of those names in Gen. 10 are still in current use in Hebrew, such as “Mizraim” for Egypt. I am amazed that you, as a Jew, think these places are “mythical”.
@ Bear Klein:
Hi, Bear.
“She” seems to be beginning her aria:
http://a57.foxnews.com/images.foxnews.com/content/fox-news/world/2017/12/22/erdogan-promotes-turkey-as-unfettered-independent-power/_jcr_content/par/featured-media/media-0.img.png/931/524/1513967524623.png?ve=1&tl=1
We’ll see how “her” performance goes. The accompanying article is
“Erdogan promotes Turkey as unfettered, independent power”
— http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/12/22/erdogan-promotes-turkey-as-unfettered-independent-power.html
The lyrics of her song might be seen at
“Palestinian president Abbas says he will ‘no longer accept’ any peace plan proposed by the US as Putin and Erdogan agree on the creation of a Palestinian state after Trump’s Jerusalem decision”
— http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5206309/Putin-Erdogan-agree-creation-Palestinian-state.html
We’re waiting, of course, for the high notes, when Brunhildogan wields her battle axe and storms across Syria. She’s working up to it…
@ Edgar G.:
Always remain logged in. When logged in, there is no CAPCHA.
@ Michael S:
Hello Michael.. I don’t actually believe in such entities as Gog and Magog, surely mythical figures never heard of before or since (never mind Ezekiel). But maybe you’re using Revelations (?).
Maybe I can sell Google a good PR stunt for a big payoff..”Google with Gog” .. sounds good.
And, assuming there are such enemies of our Creator, how do you equate them with a poor nebuchel like Turkey, a turbulent country which is more relevant in Erdogan’s mind than in reality..??
@ Edgar G.:
TED- Please take note… I got this through Captcha by switching from Mozilla to Google Chrome. So maybe Captcha doesn’t like Mozilla. Folks, my posts using Mozilla, are stuck there because Captcha refuses to accept that 6+4=10. It kept instructing me to reverse and give correct Captcha. after wiping out and even trying a different recipient I got the brilliant idea to try Google Chrome…. What a do-do I am not to have thought of it before. .
@ yamit82:
Didn’t the report say that “The White House has decided to “quietly withdraw” …. so seemingly he has not yet. Also that he does not intend to make a public announcement….. So maybe DEBKA is the first leak. And if DEBKA is accused of making Fake News they can always say that “…well ..he changed his mind….”
@ Michael S:
Your fat lady is funny. Is she singing yet?
@ Edgar G.:
Hi, Edgar
If the Bible had not prophesied that Turkey (Magog) would lead an alliance against Israel, I would not put much stock in it myself. However, dictatorships that seem to be on their last legs are often at their most dangerous. France looked devastated, when Napoleon came to power; in the Russian Empire, at one point during the Revolution, there was only one functioning motor vehicle: a British Tank. Hitler arose out of the ashes of the hyperinflation of the Weimar period, riots and political instability, etc.
Sometimes, when these demagogues find themselves with their backs against the wall, they start wars. Julius Caesar, if he had returned to Italy without his army as the law required, faced a Robert-Mueller-style investigation in the Roman Senate. Yes, Turkey has many indicators against it — as, indeed, has Putin’s Russia and even Xi’s China. This may make the world much more dangerous; since for each of these, grand military adventures may be the only way out of their dilemnas.
As for funding the PA, I don’t expect Erdogan to do that: The Europeans will do it for him.
I agree. Too sane, logical to b true.@ yamit82:
Debka report sounds like Fake News….. I’ve checked no other source for corroboration.
@ Michael S:
Weell. Turkey has double digit inflation, decrease in tourism of over 25%, unemployment in the middle double digit area, and the GDP has zonked. Some towns are absolutely in the last stages of insolvency. Erdogen was elected because of his promised economic wonders, and he’s been turning the country upside down ever since. He’s thrown hundreds of thousands out of work because he’s arrested thousands of factory owners and suspected supporters of the abortive revolt. Etc.etc. Who knows,….lets hope for a good ending, like a complete overthrow and a suitable neck massage from the nearest lamppost for our good friend Erdogan.
I wonder how it is that he’s still in NATO.
Maybe he has a special untouchable trust fund for the PA….
The fat lady:
http://mostlymystery.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/fatlady-final.jpg
Don’t everyone get sick by over-indulging on Channukah geld. The post was on DEBKA, and it is not corroborated by anyone. I also note one glaring omission, in the Muslim countries who have turned their backs on Abbas: Turkey:
“Erdogan, German, Palestinian leaders talk Jerusalem
Leaders’ telephone conversations come on heels of landmark UN vote rejecting US decision on Jerusalem
World Bulletin / News Desk
“Turkey’s President Recep Tayyip Erdogan on Friday evening spoke separately with his German and Palestinian counterparts about Jerusalem, sources close to the president said.
“Erdogan spoke with Frank-Walter Steinmeier and Palestine’s Mahmoud Abbas about the much-criticized U.S. decision to recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital, said the sources, who asked not to be named due to restrictions on speaking to the media.
“The conversations came on the heels of Thursday’s landmark UN General Assembly vote overwhelmingly rejecting the U.S. move on Jerusalem…”
— http://www.worldbulletin.net/haber/197143/erdogan-german-palestinian-leaders-talk-jerusalem
The Europeans are strong funders of Abbas, and Erdogan has been throwing all his energy into Abbas and the PA cause lately. The fat lady has not sung yet…
A..norrible thought just struck me. …If the PA is cut off and the American Peace Plan shown only to Israel, we won’t be able to depend on the lousy Arabs to turn it down. Israel will have to turn it down……and without offending Trump……….????
@ jjs110:
For me it’s a Chanukah present. Happy celebration of your Festive Season.
@ Edgar G.:
I see I’n still having duplicate/triplicate problems. After a single post I get the notice that I’ve already said that and must reverse etc. But when I reverse, my same post is in it’s box with none of it posted. So I press again, It then tells me I didn’t complete the Captcha math. I reverse again…and …and …you see what happens
Best news of the year, and it’s been a long time coming. The Palestinians are finally going to face the twin concept of personal responsibility and consequences for their words and actions, for which they have received nothing but a pass from a cowered world so far. This is one hell of a Christmas present. Thank you, President Trump!
All I can say is that, although long, long overdue, I couldn’t have happened to a nicer group of thug/terrorist/murderers/ monsters……
A guten fur dein futur…..!