Haredim and the IDF: A crisis with no solution?
By Amos Harel, HAARETZ
August ? or possibly November ? 2015 will most likely be a historic month. If all goes smoothly, one of those months will see an event that will be unprecedented in all of Israel’s 67-year history: the first large cohort of ultra-Orthodox soldiers will arrive at the National Induction Center at the conclusion of three years of compulsory service, in order to return their gear and get their discharge papers, just like their secular and national-religious brethren.
This year’s High Court of Justice ruling overturning the so-called Tal Law, which until now exempted ultra-Orthodox men from army service, could lead to realization of what was probably a fantasy of hundreds of thousands of Israelis for decades. The guidelines laid down by the court for the government and the Knesset are quite clear. On the assumption that the court’s directives will be honored and the principle of equality upheld, the road to drafting tens of thousands of Haredim seems to have been paved.
Except that it hasn’t been. Even though the political world is in an uproar over the subject, and drafting Haredim looms as an issue ?(along with evacuation of a few settler outposts in the West Bank?) that could topple Benjamin Netanyahu’s government in its fourth year, and even though leaders of Zionist parties have ratcheted up their rhetoric on the question lately ? it seems unlikely now that this crisis will end with the mass induction of yeshiva students. Just as the Zionist ?(that is, secular and national-religious?) side sounds determined to root out the inequality this time, so too the Haredi side remains committed to defend what it achieved over the course of a generation.
Given the impressive political dexterity that the Haredi rabbis are displaying, not even the most devoted activists in the “suckers’ encampment” ? that is, the protest site established by reservists a week ago near the Knesset, in support of drafting Haredim ? have any illusions that this battle will end with a knockout by the silent majority.
As Yossi Verter explained in these pages last week, Prime Minister Netanyahu views the dispute over Haredi army service as an “almost insoluble crisis.” That is his rather optimistic way of describing problems that are completely insoluble. In the past few weeks, he has concluded that it will be difficult for him to bridge the rift in his coalition over this issue, and that the dispute could even precipitate early elections ? if right-wing opposition to the removal of the houses in the Ulpana neighborhood in Beit El doesn’t make that happen earlier.
Netanyahu is trapped on all sides. The Zionist parties in his coalition ? including Yisrael Beiteinu, Atzmaut, Habayit Hayehudi ? are all publicly committed to the passage of a new law that would establish a Haredi draft. Netanyahu himself even promised a few months ago, in a meeting with reservist-activists, that Likud under his leadership would submit legislation that would be to the protesters’ liking.
That was not his approach last year. Back then, Netanyahu talked about extending the Tal Law for five more years. His view then was that the existing situation was the least of all evils, and that the recommendations of the Gabai committee ?(which were approved by the government?), calling for a limited increase in the number of yeshiva students who would be drafted or would do national or civilian service, was the best possible achievement given the political constraints. Defense Minister Ehud Barak also said at the time that he intended to extend the Tal Law by a year.
But the High Court ruling of two months ago upset the apple cart. The justices found that the law had not achieved its declared goal since taking effect in 2002: It had a disproportionately adverse effect on equality; indeed, inequality had actually increased under the aegis of the law. The court instructed the government to find a new solution by the end of July this year.
Netanyahu is also caught in a bind from the other direction: His “natural” allies ? the Haredi parties Shas and United Torah Judaism ? are also planning to fight. Backed by the prominent Haredi rabbis, those parties’ leaders have announced that they will block a change in the status quo at any price, and will wage a battle against the coerced drafting of even one yeshiva student.
The feeling that elections are approaching makes the situation even more volatile. Even if Israel does not attack Iran this summer, that season could well mark the beginning of a period of political hell for the government. The confluence of a host of burning issues ? the budget, the probable renewal of the social-protest movement, the Haredi draft, the removal of settler outposts ? is likely to hasten announcement of new elections. In these circumstances, with each side playing to its constituency, there is little prospect that a constructive compromise on inducting ultra-Orthodox men will be worked out.
If the critical moment arrives this summer without a solution having been found, Netanyahu will be permitted to ask the president of the Supreme Court, Justice Asher Grunis, for a year’s extension, on the grounds that the draft crisis will spark new elections, and that a decision on how to proceed will have to await the creation of a new government. Another possibility being considered now involves a legal maneuver: The Tal Law would expire, but the Defense Ministry would refrain from issuing call-up notices to Haredim for a limited time, thus ensuring that yeshiva students ?(who for the time being still enjoy deferment of service?) will not become deserters. Another option is for Netanyahu, after an election, to go counter to his natural inclination, and dissolve the historic alliance with the Haredim by forming a new government without them, as Ariel Sharon did in 2003. That would enable him to enact legislation obligating Haredim to do army service.
Even though these scenarios are seemingly just around the corner, new twists in the plot can be expected before any of them materialize.
‘Not a missionary organization’
Chief of Staff Benny Gantz was asked in an Independence Day interview appearing in Haaretz today about the Tal Law. He replied that the Israel Defense Forces was capable of absorbing more Haredi soldiers into its ranks if a new arrangement is found that takes the place of the law. Asked about the implications of the court’s decision to strike down the law and about his view of a desirable alternative, he said this was a matter for the political echelon to decide and stressed that he seeks “equality in service.”
Gantz also said expectations should not be too high regarding the immediate significance of a change in existing induction policies. “Don’t expect me to open two more elite infantry brigades tomorrow morning,” he said. “But I think we need to see how we expand the extent of [Haredi] service and open more tracks … More alternatives can be developed.” Gantz noted that in any case, all-Haredi units should be a marginal phenomenon: “I don’t want to create an army like the one in Lebanon, with a brigade for every sect.”
The chief of staff said he has discerned a desire on the part of both ultra-Orthodox and Israeli society in general to integrate Haredim into the army and national service framework, so that they “can be part of things.” He also sought to reduce the concern of Haredim about the service of their sons: “[The IDF] is not a missionary organization. Not a single Haredi soldier will be discharged secular,” he emphasized.
According to Gantz, the optimal solution will be one that gives the IDF first priority in choosing the candidates to fill its ranks, while those whose service the army does not need will do national or civilian service. The decision about introducing a new model must be made at the political level, not by the IDF, Gantz said. “They can consult with us about how to do the things they want done,” he added.
Exemption for prodigies
In the past two years, MK Yohanan Plesner ?(Kadima?) has become something of an expert on the issue of drafting yeshiva students. Plesner headed a parliamentary team that formulated recommendations for solving the problem. His work was endorsed by the High Court of Justice, whose decision on the subject is studded with quotations from the team’s recommendations. According to Plesner, the Tal Law defeated its own purpose. “The law held that it is impossible to draft all Haredim at the age of 18, and therefore preferred to promote equality by offering more options. In practice, despite the mechanism of a year of decision, which was intended to make it possible to leave the yeshiva at age 22, many of the students received a [service] exemption already during that year. A minimum number turned to the IDF or opted for national service.”
In the 10 years during which the Tal Law was in effect more than 70,000 Haredim turned 18. In the first five years, only about 2,000 of them entered the army ? 1,500 serving in the Haredi unit of the Nahal infantry brigade and the rest in abridged-service tracks or as kashrut supervisors.
In 2007, following additional petitions to the High Court, a directorate of civilian service was established, which offered new options to Haredim. A year later, the IDF instituted some improvements in the situation, mostly at its own initiative, by introducing special tracks for Haredim, primarily in key technological fields. The past few years saw an increase in the number of such draftees: about 3,000 in the army and 2,500 in the civilian service over the past five years in total. However, the final number was appallingly low: Only 11-12 percent of Haredi men of draft age did any kind of service during the decade in question, and a third of those did civilian service in the community, where supervision is poor and the benefit to the state is considered dubious in some cases.
The government’s decisions in the wake of the Gabai committee’s recommendations last year set a more ambitious goal: a gradual increase, by 2015, to 4,800 Haredi “draftees” a year, about half for army service and half for civilian service. Still, given the natural population increase in the ultra-Orthodox sector, this would amount to less than half the number who would be eligible for induction each year. Moreover, the government wanted to achieve even this low proportion of draftees by means of abridged service, whose military usefulness ranges from low to nonexistent.
The solution is clear, Plesner says: setting fixed numerical targets, with the army getting top priority ?(i.e., in Nahal Haredi and certain technological units?), along with national service that benefits society and is closely regulated by the state. This would involve work in the police force, and firefighting and prison services.
“In the next five years we have to reach a target of a third of the young Haredim in the army, a third in national or civilian service ?(in the Haredi community?) and a third in the yeshivas,” Plesner says. “There will not be a situation in which there is a change in the law and all the Haredim will be taken in trucks to the induction center. The vision for a decade down the road has to be obligatory service for everyone, with the exception of Torah studies and exemption from service exclusively for Torah prodigies.
“In 1977,” he continues, “there was a quota of 800 prodigies. In the future it can be 2,000 a year, or 20 percent of the men of draft age. But any improvement such as this requires extensive preparation. For example, as early as the 10th grade, Haredi youngsters who have dropped out of yeshivas should be absorbed by educational institutions to be created by the state for dropouts, in order to prepare them for useful jobs in the army and make it possible for them to enter the labor market afterward.”
‘Terrible wrong’
For the past three years, Avraham Brun was the IDF’s project director, on behalf of the Personnel Directorate, for the Haredi draft. Brun is very knowledgeable about this subject, dating from the period in which he was the very dominant director general of the association of hesder yeshivas, which combine religious studies with army service. That role, which he concluded this month, has not left him feeling very optimistic. Even though he was in constant contact with many Haredi rabbis and promised that dropouts among their community’s youth would be given vocational training, he does not think that the army and the Haredim are on the right track.
“The IDF is on the point of a break in relations with the Haredi society,” he says. “The drafting of Haredim, especially in the technological tracks, is based on the buddy system, where one young man brings another. If the student doesn’t know what to do, he goes to his rabbi. The rabbi then has to ask questions [on his behalf]. In order to ask, he needs suitable counterparts [within the army].”
At the end of last year, Lt. Col. Ram Moshe Ravad, chief rabbi of the air force and the director of the technological project for Haredim, announced that he was leaving the latter post due to the dispute over women singing in public. Without Ravad, Brun says, the Haredim had no one to turn to.
Brun says there is a high draft potential among ultra-Orthodox yeshiva dropouts. “In 2009 there were 120 kids in the program; now there are 800,” he says. “The Trajtenberg committee [established in the wake of last summer’s social-protest movement] thought the number should reach 3,900 within four years. Unfortunately, people in the army fought me. I don’t want to say more about this, because I hold the army dear. I can only say that in the past two-and-a-half years there was no serious discussion about stepping up the Haredi draft with the participation of the bodies actually involved. There were many discussions about procedures, but not about substantial plans for the future. The result is that the IDF is losing the credit it gained within Haredi society and realizing only part of the draft potential in these frameworks.”
But Brun’s critique goes farther. “I am afraid that it will turn out that the High Court did a terrible wrong to the Israeli society by annulling the Tal Law. We, as a society, need the Haredim. They will manage on their own, somehow. Everyone is talking about the situation today. But look at the country’s kindergartens: Almost a third of them are Haredi. The more the productive elements in Haredi society grow, the better it will be for all of us. Haredi society is in the midst of a process. It is in a different place from where they were three years ago; there are now more Haredim in the army and more in academia. The technological tracks are a great innovation, not least because they diminished the fear of the army among them.
“The annulment of the Tal Law is liable to put a stop to this process and turn the question into a political battle again. Now, with the Haredi rabbis declaring that they will fight a change in the law, we will have a battle on our hands. Who needs that?”
@ dweller:
How about we ship them all to Montreal. 😛
@ dweller:
All public transportation is subsidized, not sure how much any more but the arrangement was strictly between the Haredim and the bus company. As I said under threat of direct competition and loss of considerable revenue they caved to the demands of the Haredim. Any secular or non Haredi who rides their buses and creates an incident is done as a provocation and is agenda driven, That the Haredim or some of the or a few of them acted abysmally is something else and they were harshly criticized by almost anyone of import in their own community. Our friend CA is also agenda driven. He is bringing up stuff from 4-6 years ago. Why should he care about bus incidents or methods of circumcision and now Kipot?
@ babara:
Their right to live in Israel isn’t conditional on their acceptance of the state. It’s conditional on their being Jewish.
Where would you ‘remove’ them TO — the Côte d’Azur?
@ CuriousAmerican:
The difference is that while the claims of the Chabadniks may be viewed by many mainstream Jews as weird, they are seen generally as unthreatening to the faith, integrity, and cohesion of the Jews (and this not merely because of Chabad’s many acknowledged & worthy social services). In Israel the Lubavitchers are simply Jews — who’ve always been Jews — talking to other Jews.
Interestingly, that’s much the same way that the Christ’s first disciples were viewed by the mainstream Jewish community of their own day: weird, perhaps a trifle eccentric, but not malignant.
Contemporary Christian proselytization in Israel, on the other hand, IS often regarded a threat. One may argue that this ‘ought not’ to be the case — but history (for better or for worse) will argue back, and forcefully.
@ yamit82:
If none of their funding comes from the public till, it would be hard to argue with their stated operational policy.
@ rongrand:
Rongrand: I too am a great fan of Laura. She is a breath of fresh air. So compassionate and inspirational.
So many nights I sit by my window
Waiting for someone to sing me her song
So many dreams I kept deep inside me
Alone in the dark but now
You’ve come along
You light up my life
You give me hope
To carry on
You light up my days
and fill my nights with song
@ yamit82:
The Haredim are anti-Israel, don’t recognize the legitimacy of the state and as such ought to be removed. It is simply a matter of safeguarding our future survival. There is no place for such subversive elements in Eretz Israel.
Oh! Yes, I set up slush funds for Baptists to bribe poor Tel Aviv Jews into the Kingdom of Christ.
But enough with this stupidity.
Christians probably spend considerably far less money on Jews than the Haredi spend on their Chabad Houses worldwide (they really ARE everywhere) to bring secular Jews into the slightly cultic realms of Lubavitch Judaism, and the semi-worship of Menachem Schneerson. I remember when Schneerson died in New York. The TV stations were reporting there was a watch over Schneerson’s grave in expectation of a resurrection.
Unlike another famous Jews, Schneerson did not resurrect.
I wish we Christians spend half the money we’re accused of spending.
She was a professional who made good money.
When she had her kids, she stayed at home until they went to school.
Then she went back to work full time.
When they were pre-school, she worked part-time when her hubby was at home after his work.
@ dweller:
Yes, a private company threatened by a major loss of income caved. Business is business.
@ yamit82:
You’ve offerred some interesting detail, Yamit, but I’m seeking clarity here:
Are you saying that the state does NOT in fact subsidize the Hareidi gender-separated buses?
Pretty serious charges.
What about it, Curious?
ARE you “trolling”?
@ CuriousAmerican:
That part, I’m not so sure about, Curious.
I was talking strictly about the financing (or subsidization) of buses by the state.
Beyong that, it’s always seemed to me that every polity has to work out its own salvation (to coin a phrase) in keeping with its own unique circumstances.
In any case, I don’t know that one could rightly call gender separation ‘discrimination’ — though there is never any excuse for beating or other violence to the persons of those who may be uncooperative with policy even in strictly sectarian, or otherwise exclusive or private, organizations.
@ CuriousAmerican:
Didn’t say — or suggest — that they were.
Actually the original feminist movement that arose in the mid 19th century — and produced names like Elizabeth Blackwell, Susan B. Anthony, Lucy Stone, and Elizabeth Cady Stanton — bitterly opposed elective abortion.
The difference between then and now is that there are two ways to end a double standard:
You can raise the LOWER of the standards to the level of the HIGHER one — or you can drop the level of the HIGHER one to that of the LOWER.
The contemporary feminist movement overwhelmingly seeks the latter course; the original feminists sought the former.
Consider the following resolution found among the The Declaration of Sentiments (drafted by Elizabeth Cady Stanton) of the first women’s rights convention, Seneca Falls, New York, 1848:
“Resolved, that the same amount of virtue, delicacy, and refinement of behavior that is required of woman in the social state also be required of man, and the same transgressions should be visited with equal severity on both man and woman.”
The dirty little secret of the pro-abortion ethos is that both before AND since legalization of abortion, the real impetus in support of the repulsive practice of fetal homicide has not, in fact, come from women — but from MEN.
Yes. And yes.
Drawing a paycheck in somebody’s office, or raising the next generation — it’s all work.
You don’t think your relative’s kids are being cheated by the denial of their mother’s (or father’s) presence?
— or are the kids no longer toddlers, and in school during the day?
@ rongrand:
I have my own theory that I’d rather not say here but I’ll write you privately with my personal thoughts maybe tomorrow.
@ yamit82:
Why not? Why must Jews surrender their uniqueness and identity. Jews and Judaism certainly does not pose a threat to anyone. They are not out there trying to conquer or convert anyone. Years ago nuns taught us “if you are a good Catholic, Jew or Protestant” it very likely you are a good citizen and we can have our differences.
As it should be.
Furthermore it is their uniqueness and identity they bring to the table that is important.
What I find troubling and I am sure you do likewise is the Jews who feels compelled to be non-Jewish to be accepted. That is a foolish person.
@ dweller:
If any of you had bothered to check without being baited and set up by that Jew hating Troll, you would know that there are certain ultra-orthodox communities like Benei Brak that are mostly dependent of public transportation. They have their beliefs and for the most part don’t try to impose them on non believers. Gender separation is a core belief and nobody is asking you or anyone else to believe as they do but in their communities they feel they have a right to demand others to conform to their norms. A matter of respect and not law.
It so happens that they threatened to run their own private bus system and the Dan co-op, got scared because the haredim mostly use their services and broke down and put on Haredi buses that are clearly marked. Anyone who does not want to abide by their norms may use the regular bus service. In the case CA attributes a Leftist provocateur who intentionally boarded a Haredi bus with a film crew and caused a disturbance.
Before you or anyone starts bashing others get your facts straight first.
Curious hates the orthodox in particular because they are the main impediments for their aimed subversive agenda of taking over Israel by the same stealth methods most of you are afraid of in the States with regards to Shariah. Messianic Jews is their game,Big money and bribery is their currency and ignorant Jews are their willing partners. They are not benign.
Losing Judaism in the Pursuit of Commonality
@ rongrand:
I love her!!!!
@ CuriousAmerican:
I think all Christians should be made illegal in Israel, Their churches destroyed and all of their symbols banned.
Curious; I am curious. If your man-god were hung by a gallows would you Christians be wearing a gold gallows around your necks? Just curious 8)
@ Laura:
Laura, I love it. Your short on words but you get the point across.
I like you, Ted likes you, I know Yamit likes you, we all like you.
I like you, too.
@ Ted Belman:
Agreed.
Well said.
But take it further. They are on public roads. Even private business are not allowed to discriminate in the USA. Only private clubs on private property.
One the buses are on public roads, discrimination should be banned.
This part I agree wth.
But abortion and feminism ARE NOT NECESSARILY THE SAME THING!
Abortion is one cause.
Another cause is higher taxes, making kids too expensive.
A third cause is hyper-materialism.
Note: I am not opposed to feminism, per se. I am not opposed to reasonable taxes. I am not opposed to moderate materialism (which is basically scientific prosperity and progress).
I have a professional relative of mine, who has 3 children, and is a working mom.
So a blanket condemnation of feminism is not called for.
The original quote of mine HAD A LINK. Why didn’t you click it? You’d have seen it went to YNET!
You are defending Haredi silliness?!
Do private bus lines in the USA have the right to require that Jews and Blacks sit in the rear?!
The Metzitzah b’peh, from what I have read dates back ONLY to the 6th century AD. For the first 2000 years of Jewish circumcision, it was not known among the Jews.
Most Jews do not even do it. Most Orthodox Jews use capillary tubes today to clean the wound.
The verses you gave me were about circumcision in general, NOT the Metzitzeh b’peh.
It is NOT an isolated incidence. It has been reoccuring every few years in New York. THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME. I suspect it has been going on for a while, but the society kept it under wraps using Lashon Hora as the excuse; in the same way the Catholic Church hid child abuse under wraps for decades with threats of excommunication.
They have known for over 200 years that it causes infection, yet they won’t stop it.
Now, inasmuch as the intention of the law is to PROTECT JEWISH BOYS from infection and disease, and inasmuch as most of Jewry does not practice Metzitzah b’peh, only a fool could call the law anti-semitic.
Yet, I have seen Hasidic websites which howl whenever criticism of the technique comes up.
In proportion, it is not as vicious as what Sunni Muslims do to young girls. But, if your only defense is that you are not as bad as the Sunnis, then you are in deep trouble.
Mercifully, your attitude is NOT universal among Jewry, as this wiser Jewish person has posted.
@ CuriousAmerican:
How, “complicated”?
We made it legal to kill babies before they’re born; simple as that.
Fetal homicide was still illegal during the 50’s.
Roe v. Wade — decided by an all-male SCOTUS bench, btw — overturned the laws of 50 states, and made it open-season on the unborn.
Suddenly it was legal to treat pregnancy as a disease
— and a child in the womb as garbage, if you found it inconvenient
(in practice, that was the only criterion — sheer convenience).
The past four decades since 1973 have witnessed the death of 55 million (or more) American babies thru abortion
— and that’s not counting the massive numbers of those killed by the action of contraceptives acting as abortifacients (e.g., the ‘morning-after’ pill, etc).
THAT’s why there are fewer kids; no more ‘complicated’ than that.
@ Ted Belman:
Maybe so, but hardly such as would warrant state subsidization of a mono-gender bus system.
Perhaps the hareidim could arrange to internally finance gender-segregated buses in their own part[s] of town, if it’s that important to them.
@ CuriousAmerican:
Nope. In ’48 the overwhelming majority of those who left were not expelled.
Well, the heartland provinces & Gaza district were put under military control, but the populations thereby acquired were largely different from those that had fled two decades earlier.
Still, they are/were both hostile, that’s clear.
@ Ed Katz:
I don’t think they would want him either, the bloom is off the Black Rose.
@ CuriousAmerican:
Acid? Where did you get that from? Back of the bus front of the bus? It’s their bus line and every non Haredi woman know the difference. So if a woman gets on one of their buses she knows what to expect unless she is a paid or ideolical anti Haredi provocateur which was the case in the incident you described.
The most of the Taliban are ethnic Israelite Jews, so I guess you can say with justification that Jews are not very nice.
I’ll bet you had to really search out this incident? You found the anomaly, the exceptional negative case. Congratulations. Do you have any idea of what the % of patients contracting staff and strep infections while in hospitals in America? Guess!
Genesis 17:23). And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham’s house, and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him.
17:24 And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
17:25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
17:26 In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son.
17:27 And all the men of his house, those born in the house, and those bought with money of a foreigner, were circumcised with him.
Does the Torah tell us how to circumcise? No. For that you need the oral Law which we call TALMUD. Now for the nearly 4000 years that Jews have been around our Mohels have been performing this holy Jewish act and it’s very rare that there is a human error. I’m not giving an opinion about the method but if it is according to long standing tradition and practice except for your apparent constant searching for excuses to dump on Jews, our arcane traditions and practices, you tell me why 60% of American gentiles circumcise? In Israel 40,000 circucisions are performed yearly and if there are mishaps they are so rare that they are not reported.
since your opinion is based on a conclusion based on a fallacious premise I suggest you stick to what you really know, and that couldn’t be related to anything Jewish. So far you haven’t demonstrated knowledge on any subject except superficial stereotypes quite common with Jew hating Christians.
“Intelligent people know of what they speak; fools speak of what they know.”
I think that custom sounds like a lot of fun Do you sell tickets?
When you can come up with real Jewish excesses, I sure you will let us know. Good Hunting.
Arison, I agree with Keelie in regards to Obama. My total dislike for him is based, not on the color of his skin but on the color of his character which, in my eyes is black. This man is the total antithisis of what is bad for Israel and the USA. The Euros can have him.
To a point! Separate high schools for boys and girls is one thing, but when women are attacked with acid for wearing immodest clothing or beaten for not voluntarily going to the back of the bus, then you are in Taliban territory.
Tradition can sometimes be toxic. I live in the Northeast USA, where every so often a child dies because a Metzitzahah b’puh is performed by a mohel with a disease.
Now, the obvious thing would be to outlaw it. But howls come up from the Hasidic community, and no politician has to guts to outlaw this practice and arrest the practicioners who perform it.
It is not in Tenach or Torah. And non-Hasidic Orthodox Jews use capillary tubes to suction the wound.
But New York State will not make the practice illegal for fear of being called anti-semitic … YET, THE PURPOSE OF MAKING IT ILLEGAL IS TO PROTECT JEWISH BOYS – hardly qualifies as anti-semitism.
So to defend the excesses of tradition, just because it is tradition, is destructive.
I think rattlesnake handling – common among some nutty Pentecostals – SHOULD BE ILLEGAL, and I am Pentecostal Christian.
Women were starting to work in the 50s, and still had lots of babies. The reason there are less kids is complicated.
You are quick to criticize Islamic excess; and many here to criticize Christian excess.
keelie Said:
You oppose Obama because he is black?
Not only are you a Racist you’re an Anti-Semite too. Liberals of all denominations VOTED him in, regardless of who funds him. A democracy. Votes. He was chosen by the people. The majority. The majority are not Jewish, but you are an Anti Semite trying to pin this on liberal Jews as if it is a Jewish crime. Why do you not single out the Catholics? Or the liberal Protestants who form the majority? or Blacks or Hispanics? or Muslims? All of these minorities and the majority Protestant xtians voted for him.
@ yamit82:
Now THAT’s wisdom, Yamit…
@ Arison:
If you mean by supporting, helping elect and STILL supporting Obama, the first black president, then you’re absolutely correct.
My statement about the roles of women and men was from classic Judaism. I was not putting it forward as something we must follow but as containing an important value, i.e. roles and differences embody the concept of separation. Men and women are not the same, neither is right and wrong or night and day. They require separation.
As for the Hareidim, they are too fanatic for me. The women not only raise the family but support it as well. The men are not carrying their own weight both as head of the family and as citizens in the state.
@ Ted Belman:
Someone has to make a living.
I don’t know what you mean by being like men. Earning a living outside the home? As far as I know Israeli women have careers and are in positions of power and of course serve in the army. It’s funny that societies, like islamic ones, which are the most repressive toward women and where they have limited roles, are the most backward, failed societies. Israeli women have equality with men and Israel is successful.
I agree with all of this.
@ CuriousAmerican:
Actually no we don’t. You’re getting on my nerves.
@ Ted Belman:
Very “Fiddler on the Roof”, Ted. This sounds like the ideal situation for a people fed manna from heaven, who never have to fight wars. In Hareidi households, who brings in the turkey bacon while the men spend their days in yeshiva? And if I’m not mistaken, Israel still has some enemies left. Who’s supposed to fight them? The women? You know things aren’t all as copasetic as you put them out to be. It’s your problem, not mine. Unlike Arinson, I don’t have any axes to grind on this matter. It’s all rather comical, for me to see those Yiddish-speaking people in hot, black Polish clothing, claiming to be the “true, original” inhabitants of their Mediterranean, Semitic country. If you can put up with them and manage, fine! I dare say, they won’t change any century soon. And as for those large families you talk about, most of them are among the black hats. If there IS a problem with these folks, it will only get worse.
I think it’s funny, Ted, that the Muslims can’t tell the difference between a Jew and a Christian. One is a “great satan” and the other a “little satan”; but when it comes about to the everyday routine of rapine, slaughter and abduction, the one works just as well to them as the other. There is probably more real, discernible, difference between a Hareidi and a Modern Orthodox Jew, than there is between a Modern Orthodox and a Christian; but to hear some of the chatter here, one would think Jews and Christians came from different planets. I’m looking at a picture of my Chinese grandchildren, doing dishes together. The scene is almost identical to one I saw twenty years ago, with my children in a very similar posture at a very similar sink. I’m beginning to think there’s more difference between a Modern Orthodox and a Hareidi, than there is between a Modern Orthodox and a Chinaman. Now, THAT is a difference!
Falling in love, in Hebrew
What is Judaism
Jewish DNA – Genetic Research and The Origins of the Jewish People
The haredim will lose this battle because they are so dependent on the treasuries ATM.
The stupid secular fools on pushing equality in the IDF as a major pillar of democracy are correct but they were not wise. Those of us waiting to see a major revolution in Israeli society where Jewish norms as opposed to secular western norms become dominant in Israel could very well be witnessing the beginnings with the Courts decision. Our nation cannot long abide such rejection by the ultra religious not just of every citizens responsibility but also “The Mitzvah of Military Service”.
The Torah also makes clear that serving to protect and defend the people of Israel is equated with loyalty to G-d. For example, when the tribes of Gad, Reuven and half of Menashe wanted to settle east of the Jordan river, Moshe rebukes them because he thinks they are trying to avoid military service:
Moshe answered the descendants of Gad and Reuven saying: shall your brothers go to war while you remain here? (Numbers 32:6)
He goes on to equate the possible avoidance of military service with turning against G-d. He accuses them of being no better than the spies who forced the people to wander for 40 years in the desert:
Now behold you have risen up in the place of your fathers, a brood of transgressors, to bring even more of God’s wrath upon Israel. If you turn away from Him, He will leave us in the wilderness and you will have destroyed this whole people (Numbers 32: 15)
Moshe is not satisfied until he extracts a promise from the tribes of Gad, Reuven and half of Menashe that they will serve in war against Israel’s enemies.
Unfortunately, many of our current scholars have remembered the lesson that Israel needs scholars, and have forgotten the lesson that failing to defend our nation is equal to the sin of the spies.
Right now, over 50,000 students are exempt from military service—an unprecedented number and one clearly out of sync with the importance of military service in the history of our Nation. We need a compromise that acknowledges the importance of true Torah scholars while providing for the opportunity for the rest to participate in the mitzvah of defending the Jewish nation.
I suggest the following compromise: The Rosh (head) Yeshiva of each school should recognize the top 10% of their Israeli students as exempt from military service, and release the rest of their students—allowing them to return after their service is complete.
In acknowledgement of the loss of these students and to the income of the yeshivas during their service, the government should guarantee the yeshvas a temporary stipend to maintain their teaching staff and student services at the current level so that they don’t incur too great a loss of income during the first two years, when the most students would be leaving the yeshiva (there is a large backlog of students right now). After that, the stipend would no longer be required, as a combination of new students and former students returning to study would refill the empty seats and the budget shortfall.
This would be a win-win-win situation for Israel.
The Haredim would receive needed training in the planning, implementation, and execution of modern military operations including the use of modern weapons, weapons systems, aircraft, and naval vessels. These skills are essential. Without this training, the religious sector doesn’t have a chance of succeeding to secure Israel against the mounting international pressure to surrender our holy sites, our land, and our heritage to our enemies.
Although many Haredim may think that military training is somehow beneath them or would somehow infect them with unholiness (although it was never beneath our Patriarchs, Prophets, and Sages), they need this training desperately. They may not know it yet, but once they are trained, they will thank Hashm from the center of their souls for the opportunity to participate in the protection of our Holy Land.
Those yeshiva students, above all others, should realize that Hashm is in charge, even when a secular Supreme Court may be making the decisions.
Remember the lesson of Balaam! Even when our enemies try to curse us, they will bless us!
Michelle Nevada Jewish Israel News
http://israeljewishnews.blogspot.com/2009/06/mitzvah-of-military-service.html
What our detractors don’t understand is that we are a family more than we are a race or a religion or a people. No matter how different we are from each other we are a family. That’s is why we have survived for over 3000 years. So CA and others only see what divides. They do not understand or feel what unites.
Furthermore CA seeks to impose his view of what is PC for a western society. In Israel, Jews want to live in separate communities from the Arabs and vice versus. So what’s wrong with that? Neither of us are interested in the melting pot. That’s for America. Or with multiculturalism which is a failed system.
As for gender separation, it has great advantages. But the feminists don’t understand this because they want to be equal to men in every way, not different. Judaism fosters very definite and different roles for men and women. The women are to have children and raise them. The men have to pray three times a day and study Torah.
Western societies are dying now because the women are too busy being like men and are not interested in having babies. Where is the future in that. Israelis are a very happy people and have the largest families in western society. Our people are healthy. Our families are healthy. Our economy is healthy. And we didn’t elect Obama.
Who is anyone to tell us that we have it wrong.
keelie Said:
AMerican Jewish liberal elites are not damaging the US. They built and benefit it.
@ Arison:
There are times to listen attentively to what anyone says, not just one’s own kind. Look at the damage the American Liberal Jewish “Elites” are doing to everyone around them, especially their Jewish brethren who appear to only listen to them – their (Jewish) “betters”; certainly not “Goyim”.
I prefer to listen to people who have something rational, intelligent, and constructive to say, irrespective of their so-called religious backgrounds. I mean take a look at the article above to get a good view of what our current Jewish paradigm is doing for us.
Makes one wonder how Moses managed to convince the Israelites that they ought to gird up to fight the Amalekites.
There should be some core of agreement.
In 1948, the hostile population had been mostly expelled. In 1967, it was brought back in under martial law. So the situations are not analagous.
@ Arison:
Arison,
I don’t think the Jews are ready for ANYONE to tell them how to live, especially Hashem! I dare say, Curious was not attempting anything so bold — his “bus” remark was rhetorical only. The obvious fact is that you have a minority in Israel that does not speak the same language as the rest of the country, does not dress like the rest of the country, does not sit on the bus like the rest of the country and, in all likelihood, does not poop like the rest of the country. Is it any surprize, that they don’t serve in the military like the rest of the country? Where do you start to unravel this sort of thing? with the draft? with bus laws? Pick your choose. I’ll put money on “It’ll never happen — The Jews will live in peace with the Arabs before the Jews will agree with their fellow Jews.”
What do you care, what a goy has to say to you? I don’t think you care much about what anyone has to say to you. You’ve got wax in your ears; you can’t hear it; let him say what he wants.
Oh! Excuse me … and Jews never tell us Gentiles how to live our lives?!
Stop the hypocrisy. This is a chat room; we are here to give our opinions.
I wonder when Israel will decide to become a country, with citizens called “Israelis” or “Hebrews”, who speak a common language and dress reasonably the same as one another. Right now, there are several countries in one place: Israel, Yidishrael, Bedouinel, Druziel, Palestiniel, Telaviviel… each country having its own military obligations, its own religion, its own language, its own dress, you name it. One might say Israel is a “work in progress”; but sometimes I wonder what progress has been made. In some ways, Israel was more unified in 1948 than it is today. Israel isn’t the only place this is happening: Europe seems to be in a similar place, along with parts of the US. Instead of countries, we’re starting to have a borderless alphabet soup of peoples — “Great Babylon, Land of Confusion”, if you will. Is this good? bad? I won’t make a judgment; but I will say it’s confusing. If you’re trying to distil a country out of a diaspora, I would say it’s not good. Lots of luck, though, trying to convince the Haredim that they need to change.
CuriousAmerican, the days the goy tells us how to live are over. Don’t tell us what is civil or not.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/155142
Video Honors the IDF ‘Our Brothers, Our Home’
A tribute to the brave heroes of the IDF who have protected our freedom and land for 64 years.
Start with the basics. Before you can’t draft ’em, but you have to civilize them.
STOP ALL GENDER SEGREGATED BUSES IN ISRAEL.
Pull down on modesty signs!
Arrest all Hasidic vandalizers.
Make Frumkas illegal.
Use tear gas when necessary.