EU set to reassess ties if Israel doesn’t move on peace
Fed up with settlement expansion, officials in Brussels are working on punitive measures to be implemented as soon as the political leadership wants to do so
The European Union is inconspicuously but determinedly threatening to reevaluate bilateral ties with Israel if the Netanyahu government fails to make progress toward a two-state solution and continues its current policy of allowing construction beyond the pre-1967 lines.
The EU’s new policy has gone largely unnoticed due to this summer’s Operation Protective Edge, but EU officials are already busy at work on a set of sanctions against Israel that Brussels could enact whenever the union’s political echelon gives a green light. Indeed, some in the EU are currently considering implementing a mechanism that would immediately penalize Israel for every step deemed unhelpful to the peace process (such as settlement expansion), a senior European diplomat told The Times of Israel.
On July 22, in the middle of the 50-day war with Hamas, the 28 EU foreign ministers issued a joint statement that was widely seen as pro-Israel, as it condemned indiscriminate rocket fire against Israeli civilians and called for the disarmament of all terrorist organizations in Gaza. Even the Foreign Ministry in Jerusalem praised the EU for the statement.
However, the text also severely criticized Israel, as the EU has in the past, for various policies vis-à-vis the Palestinians, including continued settlement expansion, “settler violence,” the “worsening of living conditions for Palestinians,” house demolitions, “evictions and forced transfers” and “increasing tensions” at the Temple Mount.
Critically, the joint statement went on to say that the future of bilateral ties is conditional on moves the EU deems helpful to achieve peace, marking the first time such a linkage was mentioned so explicitly.
“The EU underlines that the future development of the relations between the EU and both the Israeli and Palestinian partners will also depend on their engagement towards a lasting peace based on a two-state solution,” the joint statement stressed.
Last week, a spokesperson for EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton used a similar formulation in a press release condemning Israel’s decision to advance construction in Jerusalem’s Givat Hamatos neighborhood and to allow Jews to move into houses in Silwan. Both areas are located beyond the pre-1967 lines.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu with EU Foreign Policy Chief Catherine Ashton, during their meeting in Jerusalem, on June 20, 2013. (photo credit: Amos Ben Gershom/ GPO/Flash90)
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, left, with EU Foreign Policy Chief Catherine Ashton in Jerusalem, June 20, 2013. (photo credit: Amos Ben Gershom/ GPO/Flash90)
“We stress that the future development of relations between the EU and Israel will depend on the latter’s engagement towards a lasting peace based on a two-state solution,” the recent statement read.
The juxtaposition of Israel’s ties with the EU and Jerusalem’s will to establish a Palestinian state sounded like a threat to some.
“Some analysts saw it as a sign of impending action,” noted Andrew Rettman of EUObserver.com, a journalistic website run by a Brussels-based nonprofit. The Qatar-based Gulf Times newspaper understood the EU’s statement to mean that Israel’s plans in East Jerusalem “pose a threat to … Israel’s relations with the European Union.”
For the time being, it should be stressed, the EU has no intention of cutting ties with Israel, nor does it intended to enact very harsh sanctions right away. However, there is little doubt that the union and its 28 member states are becoming increasingly fed up with issuing condemnations whenever Jerusalem announces new plans for construction in East Jerusalem or the West Bank, without being able to do anything about it.
Therefore, EU officials have started working on mechanisms to impose penalties on Israel, the senior European diplomat told The Times of Israel. The plan under consideration is to respond to every Israeli action deemed detrimental to the peace process by implementing a step that would hurt Israel, the diplomat elaborated.
How would this work? The EU has long insisted that existing EU legislation needs to be implemented, which in many cases is not yet the case. If Jerusalem were to approve another building project in East Jerusalem, for example, the union could opt to introduce a labeling regime for products from West Bank settlements.
Brussels argues that EU law requires such labeling, but the EU has hitherto refrained from implementing a labeling regime, partly so as not to disturb US-brokered peace negotiations with the Palestinians. But now that the talks have broken down, and Israel continues to build beyond the Green Line, there is very little that would hold the EU back from requiring such labels on all settlement goods imported to Europe, the diplomat indicated.
While concrete sanctions might not be announced at the meeting of the EU’s foreign ministers on October 20 in Luxembourg, the details of possible punitive measures (such as labeling) are currently being discussed in several working-level meetings in Brussels, the diplomat said. Once the bureaucratic work is completed, the union’s political leaders could implement such measures at a time of their choosing.
The EU is not only brandishing the stick; it is also offering carrots. Were Israelis and Palestinians to make peace, the EU has promised to grant both parties a “Special Privileged Partnership” — a significant upgrade in ties that would include financial, political and security assistance.
“The EU is slowly emerging as a political player in the world. It is increasingly linking its economic power to specific policies,” said Caspar Veldkamp, the Netherlands’ ambassador to Israel. “Regarding Israel, the EU offered the prospect of a special partnership, akin to Switzerland’s relations with the EU, in the event of a final status agreement. At the same time, if Israel continues to announce building decisions and so on, a tendency will grow in the EU to respond to such Israeli steps by implementing specific EU measures.”
Several of these measures were already decided upon by the EU’s foreign ministers in 2012, the ambassador said.
Ambassador for the Netherlands to Israel Caspar Veldkamp, June 10, Amsterdam. (photo credit: Bibi Neury, Photo Republic)
Ambassador Caspar Veldkamp (photo credit: Bibi Neury, Photo Republic)
Veldkamp diagnosed an “erosion of support for Israel in European countries” due to a lack of progress in the peace process. “I am fully aware that you need two parties to make progress. But Europeans expect more initiative from the Israeli side, since they see Israel as the stronger party of the two,” he said. “Moreover, Europeans are increasingly annoyed with Israel’s continuing decisions on building across the Green Line.”
Some smaller member states have already indicated their desire to sanction Israel if the peace process doesn’t advance to their liking.
Last month, Finnish Foreign Minister Erkki Tuomioja warned Jerusalem that trade and other relations might suffer if the peace process doesn’t advance at a satisfactory pace. The EU has offered enough carrots, he told Haaretz, adding that “it also seems that it needs the possibility of sticks. If there is no progress, [Israel] has to be shown that there are costs involved in the stalling,” he said.
A few days later, the foreign minister of Denmark, Martin Lidegaard, similarly threatened “new steps, including a change in our trade relations with Israel,” in case the ceasefire negotiations with Hamas in Cairo didn’t go the way the Europeans expect. Prime Minister Helle Thorning-Schmidt later clarified that Lideggard’s statement reflected his private opinion and did not represent the government’s position. “I don’t think this will be discussed in the EU,” she said.
But if Jerusalem continues with its current policies towards Palestinians and settlements, it will be only a matter of time before the EU and its member states decide to reassess the future of bilateral relations with Israel, including the implementation of some type of sanctions.
@ CuriousAmerican:
a perfect example of two faced by the nation who was first entrusted to settle Jews in Palestine Mandate and subsequently supported, trained, armed and led the Jordanian war against the beneficiary of the Trust and occupation of the west bank which was only recognized by one other nation: Pakistan.
bernard ross Said:
The ISIS will eventually get around to those effete nihilistic pussies!!!! I doubt this time they will have a Charles Martel to save them because they will be as Will Durant claimed “they will be defeated from within before they are defeated from without”
America elected twice a president who hates America? That says more about the state of America than it does about Obama.
I always thought Washington and the others were brave and unselfish for risking their lives to found America when they already were prosperous under the British, but Obama has contempt for them. I’m still trying to understand what he likes about America.
He doesn’t much like the culture, the economic system, the military, or most of the people. He doesn’t respect our history or dominant religions. How can he succeed when he governs a nation that he doesn’t like? He just doesn’t like America, which would be fine except that he’s the president.
In a democracy or republic The people deserve who they voted for. Saying I didn’t vote for the bum does not release any American from collective responsibility. That’s the system for good or bad.
yamit82 Said:
recently the Pope repeated the canard that the Christian problems in the ME was dependent on a Israel pal resolution. since arab spring this canard has so obviously been proved false.
CuriousAmerican Said:
HMMMMM????
Curious American Said:
It is normal for the murderously barbaric to have their freedoms curtailed. Only a foolish idiot or a foolish Jew would not act accordingly. However, you, the church and the euros ALL seek to see the “murderous and barbaric” given freedom and sovereignty, you avoid the truth of their murdeorus and barbaric behavior wrt the jews…..Perhaps you are not upfront….perhaps you are two faced…….perhaps you seek to deceive?
@ bernard ross:
When the Arabs controlled the christian holy places, christians had no access. Only after 1967 did Catholics and other christians gain the right to worship in their shrines because the Jews allowed it. Even so, the Catholic Church sides with the Palestinian Arabs over the Jews. That tells me the Catholics hate Jews more than they love jeezuus.
The Presbyterians and Methodists don’t give a flying fuck about the Tibetans, the Rwandans, the Sudanese, or any other persecuted people, but they’re totally devoted to the Palestinians because it gives them a convenient excuse to shit on the Jews. I was never enthralled with CUFI, and I have no grievance with them, but I’m not counting on them, either. History don’t lie, and christian history is more consistent with the actions of the Presbys and the Methos and the Caths.
It blows my mind that the Catholic Church is so ungrateful to Israel for granting access to christian holy places. That’s the smoking gun right there. Their priority should be having Catholics be able to travel anywhere in the Holy Land, but the Church wants Judea and Samaria to be in the hands of anti-Catholic Muslim thugs instead of Catholic-friendly Jews. How’s that for being self-destructively antisemitic? Fuck’em.
Perspective Truth: If the world isn’t furious at Israel, Israel is failing to protect itself. The world bitching about the rotten Israelis is a good thing.
CuriousAmerican Said:
and therefore you beleive that they should roam free among the Jews? I believe they should roam free among the europeans so that we can see the ME drama moved to a new stage in Europe. I suspect that the libels of the euros will bring ISIS to them in Europe. Could anyone rationalize that the euros would not be getting their just desserts? Each libel against the Jews is an attempted murder. It is amusing to see these Christians supporting the muslim arabs while their neighboring christians are literally losing their heads from the same muslim arabs they support. While you and the BDS churches and euros are stalking the jews christian heads roll, muslim drums beat in europe, vlad rattles the gate. Have you not noticed that all surrounding Israel enemies are in chaos and killing each other? Next is Europe, the pogroms against the Jews there are merely the warning signs for the jews to leave so that the muslims may have their feast there.
did you bring any of the arab christians to south america or are you too busy stalking the Jews?
the phoenix Said:
a way should be found to deliver them to ISIS for their just fate, or perhaps ISIS can be brought to them.
Fuck Europe and Fuck CA. Both hate the Jews and both propagate the Arab Muslim world’s revisionist history being swashed about as real history when in fact it is a deliberate obfuscation of the reality that the so-called Palestinian Arab Muslim (and the many selfish Arab imperialists before Israel was even a state) created this bed he lays upon and will one day, hopefully, be kicked out of and sent to Jordan or any other Arab state the thinking world can force to accept these savages. How pathetic to see this fucking puke CA write out all the reasons he believes the Jews of Israel should bow their knee to a fucking Europe that has no record of morality–not even close!–with which to boast of as being a guide to dictating to the Jews how they should live and abide those who want to murder them, every one. What a fucking joke this guy is. Who is going to give a state to a bunch of murdering savages? And who would pay anyone bent on killing them money to leave them alone? CA is such a slimy piece of shit.
CuriousAmerican Said:
freedom and sovereignty has been tried and continues to fail, just like an unrepentant murderer or a lunatic. Furthermore, their leaders have freedom and sovereignty but their people do not, therefore your rants are as meaningful as accusations of Israeli apartheid whereby the only apartheid exists in arab controlled areas. The best indicator is what they teach their children about Jews; it is absurd to seek to live in peace with those teaching their children that the jews must and will be slaughtered. All the other discussions should not even be broached until they prove they do not want to kill the jews. but why wait for these lunatics. better to send them to europe and kill 2 birds with one stone.
CuriousAmerican Said:
Actually I disagree: I believe the real problem is with the europeans and their two-faced attempts to destroy the Jews. If the euros were neutralized israel could solve its problems with the arabs, muslims and “pals”. the conflict was created and maintained by the christian and secular elements of europe. They intentionally created the sykes picot conflict borders to maintain an indirect colonial hegemony. today they libel Israel and goad the arabs into killing the Jews. It is they who have organized the arabs internationally while two facedly pretending to be neutral.
yamit82 Said:
I believe that europe intentionally created this wrong horse but for them it is the “right” horse, which is why they maintain their support of that horse, organise that horse, fund that horse, etc. Europe is the true enemy of the jews and without european libels, goading organization and funding the Jews and muslims could operate without war. For the muslims it is purely a matter of issuing the right set of fatwas and the street will follow. But the europeans have a pathological obsession with the jews, stalking them back from their ghettos and trying to corral the jews into new ghettos.
Perhaps the best way of dealing with europe is two-faced, doing what they did but doing it covertly. Churchill allied with Stalin against Hitler. Perhaps Israel should seek to facilitate the muslim and russian wars against europe, perhaps ISIS in Europe would distract the muslims from Israel. Israel could sell the Europeans to the muslims in a dramatic reversal of the usual european appeasement pattern.
A euro spring similar to an arab spring might be good for Israel.
@ bernard ross:
excellent comment, Mr. Ross!
CuriousAmerican Said:
Why do you want that CA? did you write to the arabs to ask them to be upfront? are they upfront about their wanting to kill the Jews as opposed to seeking peace. are they upfront about their myths of apartheid? Why should you want the jews to be upfront when the arabs employ taqiya as their primary MO?
And what about these europeans you talk about? Are these libelers, swindlers, torturers and slaughterers of the Jews upfront with the Jews, have they ever been honest and upfront. One minute they open holocaust museums and the next minute they support and fund those seeking to kill the Jews. One minute they declare, encourage and guarantee the historical, legal and moral rights of Jews to live in Israel and the next minute they call it illegal and illegitimate; screaming apartheid, baby killing, genocide, aping and mimicking the canards of the arabs.
are the christian supersessionsist churches upfront about their campaign to demonize and delgitimize the Jews with libels and send money to arab orgs related to jew killers?
Is the UN upfront with its ludicrous UNHRC and its investigation of Israel instead of Hamas?
Are any of these entities undeserving of deception or unpracticed in that art?
then CA, the question becomes as usual, why do you want the Jews do something that no one else in the world does? All diplomacy incorporates deception: ask the church if they are deceitful.
CuriousAmerican Said:
first seek that from the others: the church, the muslims, the arab, the euros, the UN, etc etc etc.
CuriousAmerican Said:
Are the euros still the Jews slave masters, do they have a right to preach to the Jews, why do they stalk the Jews from their ghettos in europe to their homeland far from europe, why do they seek to tell jews what are the legal boundaries of the jewish ghetto in the homeland? What should be the just fate of such a european collective that has never stopped stalking the jews??
We can see the beginnings of this just fate when the proxy jew killers of christian europe are chopping christian heads in the ME instead of the Jewish heads they were hired to chop off. We can see their just fate as the head choppers they want to see rule the Jews in Israel are turning their wives and daughters into prostitutes and gobbling up their lands from within, we can see their fate as Vlad bangs on their doors screaming for entry to the feast inside. we can see their just fate when we imagine ISIS let loose in Europe and doing everything in europe which it does in the ME. Perhaps Vlad will help them in that end to make his entry smoother?
CuriousAmerican Said:
In other words YOU and the Euros believe that the Jews should give the “murderous” and barbaric” Jew killers freedom and sovereignty to keep committing their murders on your behalf? It appears that you and they are the two-faced, expecting from Jews what you would never expect from anyone else. The murderous and barbaric belong in 3 places: the grave, the prison and the lunatic asylum(which is another form of prison) precisely for the purpose of limiting their freedoms and sovereignty in order to avoid the dangers they pose to society. Perhaps you and the Euros believe the Jews should continue to experience the barbaric acts of the arabs? Is a prisoner paroled or a lunatic released to see if he still poses a danger? Of course not, first the prisoner or lunatic must prove that he is NOT a danger. Anyone who teaches their children that Jews are to be slaughtered as part of their religion must be in one of 3 places: the grave(preferably), the prison, the lunatic asylum.
@ bernard ross:
@ CuriousAmerican:
Both Jews and Arabs have tragically (and illogically) maintained their separate delusions.
We Jews believe that, if we grant generous territorial concessions to the Arabs, then they will genuinely want to make peace with us, and that they will happily recognize Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people (i.e., the “win-win” paradigm of conflict resolution).
Conversely, the Arabs believe that, despite defeat after defeat, they are actually winning their long War against the Jewish people, and that winners do not compromise on their maximalist objectives (i.e., the “zero-sum” paradigm of conflict resolution).
Ironically, if both sides were to let go of their mutual delusions, then we Jews would be pursuing the “zero-sum” paradigm, and the Arabs would be pursuing the “win-win” paradigm.
Europe unfortunately for them are backing the wrong horse and for no rational or logical reason. it’s as if they have no free will of their own and are being compelled to take anti Israel stands. When individuals do the same we usually consider them kind of nuts!!!!!!!!!!!
Truth is shown Here
@ CuriousAmerican:
Believe it or not american, I happen to agree with you (there is DEFINITELY something wrong with this picture…but I digress. 🙂 )
To my thinking…there IS no such animal as “the Israeli right wing”… 🙁
It is all speeches, words (and empty words at that) and nothing concrete.
As a matter of fact I am saying practically the same thing that you are saying.
The only difference being, is the fact that YOU, are saying it from the pov of trying to put down THE JEWS.
I, OTOH, am saying the same thing, but in exasperation, for what you are describing is just not so, and I am lamenting WHY is it not so?
WHY aren’t the Jews walking to the Temple Mount at will? (As a side bar, when will that friggin’ rusty roof top structure be demolished???)
WHY are there still Arabs in Israel?
WHY are there still zoabis and tibis (more appropriately would be ‘tizzis… But you won’t get it… 😉 )
etc etc etc
CuriousAmerican Said:
@ CuriousAmerican:Essentially you say Israel should stop being duplicitous, be clear about what it wants. Why so? Maybe it is better for Israel to not present a plan. You don’t discuss what good your suggestion would do. Perhaps sitting tight is Israel’s best option. In diplomacy you never say “no”. You say “yes, but”. So Israel agrees to a TSS in principal, but will not agree to the definitions or parameters set by the west. Meanwhile Israel is getting stronger and everyone else; the EU. the US and the Arab countries including Iran, are getting weaker.
Actually, Europe has been consistent and knows what it wants.
It wants a Palestinian state. Details are a secondary issue. The EU wants an indpendent Palestinian state roughly corresponding to the 1967 borders
It is Israel, particularly the right wing Israelis who are inconsistent.
1) You do not want a two-state solution.
Always you complain about, and the pressure put upon Israel to accept it.
2) You do not want a one-state binational state.
That is absolutely clear.
So what I see from the Israeli right is what they do not want rather than what they really want.
3 )You complain that giving up land has not brought you peace when it pretty much as brought some degree of peace.
Egypt is your ally against the Muslim Brotherhood. Jordan is at peace with you. Whether or not the loss of Sinai was advisable, it did bring peace with Egypt.
With Jordan, you did not even have to give up any land at all.
4) The problems you have are with the “Palestinians”
Here it is trickier. Have you really given up land? The IDF enters at will.
The right does not want a two-state solution. It does not want a one-state solution.
It never puts forth a vision for Israel because it knows the world will not accept it.
The right’s vision for Israel is a Jewish state with as few Arabs as possible.
It dare not say that, or it will be hammered by the planet.
5) So Israel talks about wanting peace but will not concede any sovereignty to the Arabs in Judea and Samaria.
I do NOT blame Israel, but Europe has figured out that Israel is stalling waiting for the Arabs to disappear one morning. Europe is fed up.
Stop stalling. Do something!
The Israeli right does NOT have the guts to say:
1) We want a Jewish state
2) We want the Arabs to go
3) We will make the Arab’s life a living hell until they go, with permit regulations, building demolitions, movement control, Shin Bet spying, ID revocations, limited movement, water limitations, border control, and no real autonomy except in name only.
Not even the Swiss would accept that.
4) We have no intention of giving them sovereignty
But the Israeli right cannot admit that. So they dodge this and evade that and say, “They have no partner for peace.”
What Israel means be a “partnet for peace” is an Arab who will agree to no sovereignty, no freedom of movement, no control over airspace, no control radio signals, no control over the population registry of his own people, limited ability to issue building permits, no control of exit and entrance to Palestnian areas, no control to let people settle where they want even on the reservations, no contiguous area of control, no open borders.
I AM NOT TAKING THE ARAB POSITION.
I know why Israel needs to do this, but if you want peace you must realize how this appears to non-Jews.
Do you expect Europe to not notice?!
If you were honest you would say to Europe. We want the Arabs out. If you love them so much, you can have them. They are yours.
The Israeli right never puts forward a vision or a plan. All it does is complain about what the other side offers.
Stop being so two-faced.
Say what you want. —> The Arabs to leave.
Say why you want it. —> They are a menace to us.
Say what you will do to bring it about. —> We will pay them to leave.
This evasiveness Israel exudes is fooling no one.
It is ethnic cleansing by bureaucratic strangulation.
Have to the guts to admit and say: We want them out.
Until then, the EU will see Israel as taking peace, and working against it.
As for the Arabs, Yes they are nuts.
Yes, the Arabs are murderously barbaric
But what you are offering them would not be acceptable, even if J&S were populated by Danes.
What you want is for Europe to look the other way while you bureaucratically strangle the Palestinians. Move on, citizen. Nothing to see here.
I do not mind if you get rid of the Palestinians. I just want you to be upfront about it.
@ yamit82:
What ‘christian’ attempt?
(And what’s ‘christian’ about it?)
Calling it (whatever ‘it’ IS) “Jewish” (let alone, “exegesis”)
— does not make it so.
All I’ve done is speak a bit of simple common sense
— though it’s clear that common sense isn’t common ENOUGH to include PresentCompany in its circle.
“Learn” what?
Or else, what?
Oh, please. You never attempt to ‘enlighten’; all you EVER do is promenade your data against the backdrop of your personal vanity. (That’s the polite way of stating the obvious.)
This elaborate palavering is what is known in more sober circles as:
— wishful thinking.
But more importantly, it puts on full display the fact that you’ve persuaded yourself that understanding this stuff is strictly a factor of intellect
— when the truth is that it’s not even slightly about intellect. There are children who grasp the point — but not Yamit.
“…these people draw near,
and with their mouth and with their lips do honour Me,
but have removed their heart far from Me,
and their fear of Me is a commandment of men
learned by rote…”
In that case why are you crying?
@ dweller:
You were wrong in your christian attempt at Jewish exegesis before and you are just repeating the same now. Either learn something or drop it I will not now enter into another long futile attempt to enlighten you.
Brain dead is as Brain is and I am referring to your excuse for a brain. Your frontal lobe cerebellum is Mush!!! It was Mush before and nothing seems to have improved. Prognosis Terminal.
“Girls in Baseball Don’t Cry”
@ yamit82:
Your profundity, brilliance & erudition never cease to amaze. My compliments.
@ dweller:
Christian go oomph yourself.
@ yamit82:
No.
Yisrael Eldad’s OWN concept of God is limited (tribal, evidently).
ABRAHAM’s, however, was NOT:
— “Shall not the Judge of all the earth do justly?”
Again, it is ELDAD who is (implicitly) acknowledging what are (apparently) his OWN limitations in this regard.
When haShem reveals Himself to Abraham, however, it is — and for the first time ever (recorded) — as El Shaddai, “Almighty God.”
Nothing ‘limited’ or ‘anti-metaphysical’ in that.
yamit82 Said:
The G-d Of History
Bernie, worth reading!!!
bernard ross Said:
All of us come from different places, different familial circumstances and even cultures. We are not a Homogeneous people. Looking at the Jewish people objectively there is little to unite us except Judaism. We do not speak the same languages, have not experienced the same history for most of 2000 years, we are not a homogeneous race and we do not all share the same culture.
There is no such thing as Jewish history what we have should be correctly called a Jewish memory. All of recorded history outside of the Tanach was written from the viewpoints of ascendant Empires. Greek, Roman later the Church etc.
“Descartes initiated individualistic European philosophical terms for European thought. “I think therefore I am.” We Jews must find our “I,” the root of our self- consciousness, on which we can build our ideas – in and with our own terms. Not “I think,” which is typically European. Thought is not our ground. Our ground is: “In the beginning God created.””
“Rabbi Judah Halevy uses the same Biblical verse in his book The Kuzari, but he quotes the full verse: “I am the Lord your God who took you out of Egypt.” This is the fundamental concept of our Divinity. Maimonides cut the verse in half and built his philosophical system on it. Judah Halevy said: History is our philosophy. This is our Archimedean point: God, and national activity in history. This is our starting point.” “The concept of God is limited: He is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob – that is the limit. More than that is metaphysics, philosophy. Our nation has a God who is limited, racially and historically. This anti-metaphysical base is central to Judaism.”
The name Israel, one who struggled with G-d, was aptly chosen for both the people and the nation. Our history is one of struggle against G-d which is the recurring theme. Jews stray and G-d brings us back..Then the cycle repeats itself all over again. I do urge you to pick up a Tanach and read if nothing else the Prophets. All of the answers to you questions are answered there. It’s a Been there Done That Narrative.
Judaism is a practical religion for individual people
yamit82 Said:
true, no doubt about it.
yamit82 Said:
Me too, not in the near future though. at least as it appears right now, but I have always felt close to Israel. I believe I have some relatives there that I have never met nor knew.
@ bernard ross:
I thought as much so I let it slide and I know it was a joke.
Why don’t you come over for a visit. I’d like to meet you in person.
bernard ross Said:
Think about it rationally. Israel by all the laws of nature and history should not exist. The Jewish people should not exist. 3 years after the holocaust we get a state,
What events led up to that point? Each separate event can be explained rationally but together????? To many coincidences to be rationally explained. Nobody but nobody expected Israel to survive the war of 1948 but we gained 20% more territory than we got under the UN resolution.
Some half million Arabs fled which saved and guaranteed our demographic survival. We took in almost a million refugees from the Muslim and Aarb countries, fed housed educated them and largely assimilated them with little to no resources.
The Arabs could have destroyed us at any time by accepting us and agreeing to live peacefully. They instead pushed us to become stronger and stronger, more independent and self reliant. The more the world pushes us the weaker they become and stronger we become. of course it’s not a straight-line graph but it can be matched.
If there is a guiding force and a purpose then I don’t think we’ve come this far for nothing …. There has to be more..
That’s why I am only concerned but not pessimistic of our future.
We got a desert and swamps and had no experience with agriculture or much of anything for that matter fought the terrorists and absorbed in the first 10 years-triple our initial population, built a formidable Army and and the foundations of Industry, resurrected a Hebrew Language educated a whole population created a Hebrew culture fought wars absorbed a million Russian immigrants in 5-6 years.
Did the Entebbe raid, stole our embargoed ships embargoed by France built two nuke reactors and and built a formidable Nuke arsenal
Built things not even the American have succeeded doing.
I could go on and on but we seem to be an anomaly. Nobody can rationalize our successes in rational terms
yamit82 Said:
I was joking, that is a catskill Satmar village, I think that aliya is not their bag.
@ bernard ross:
Not hardly.
yamit82 Said:
did you work on Kiryat Joel? 😛
M Devolin Said:
considering all the chaos surrounding Israel, and the global demonization, Israel has done well.
Not much can be added to the known fact regarding the net worth of the unJewish GoI.
As reported by others, the EU countries are buying and selling at will. Talk aside…
My concern in view of the rapid decay curve of the EU is not about how many yogurts they buy but how many nuclear weapons are likely to fall into Islamic hands when the European countries fall.
yamit82 Said:
there is also the possibiility that much of the Eu noise is to cover their lack of response to their “squeaking wheels”. Perhaps they implement programs that end up doing little and make a lot of noise to cover that fact. These days I have begun to believe that the more rhetoric signifies the less action. Perhaps israel makes no response because they are receiving more noise than harm, and perhaps that was negotiated as such.
yamit82 Said:
I think you are very wrong here. Facts and truth are what is missing in the equation. why spend money for aliya ads but NEVER debunk the libels and canards about Israel to the Jews. This negligence has the look of being guilty. Everyone knows that he who says nothing when confronted looks more guilty. The Jewish diaspora relies on Israel for the truthful information and Israel withholds the truth. If at least Israel took action like summoning ambassadors and filing suits then Jews could see that Israel does not agree with its detractors. Israel lets every 2 bit flunky libel and insult them and the Jews with no reaction. Look how angry Erdogan, the UAE, Sisi react when their behavior is questioned. What is wrong with the israeli gov, I find it weird.
yamit82 Said:
I disagree, I would never have known many things without spending a lot of time learning and reading lots of international sources from different viewpoints. Average people do not have that time and rely on the media at hand which is usually MSM. I was shocked to find out how dis-unified Israelis were, but come across in the MSM as being unified as per Haaretz. I rarely see a citation on the wire services regarding Israel that does not come from haaretz. They are quoted as if they were relaying the pulse and heart of Israel.
Israel will survive. That’s what counts. Fuck Europe. And Europe has an overabundance of traitors and cutthroats (the Holocaust is proof of this), so many that there will be more than enough of those Euro-trash who will do business with Israel despite making promises to their political mongrels of Europe not to. Even anti-Jewish hatred can be set aside when making money is a more convenient venture.
Israel is here to stay. Europe’s floundering existence and its excoriations of Israel have no effect on Israel’s survival.
“Silly one time comments by BB and Liberman is pissing in the wind with no focus, direction or goal. It is pathetic.”
Can everyone say “inefficacious”? Well said, Mr. Ross.
EU to ban dairy products from over the pre-1967 lines as of January
http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/EU-to-ban-dairy-products-from-over-the-pre-1967-lines-as-of-January-378504
Useless GOI has had plenty of time to develop responses but I see no approach, business as usual? At least have the gonads to hit back at the Euros or the pals like making it difficult for pal products to leave for europe, or creating a fund to compensate for loss of profits from pal customs duties. the pals instigated this so business owners should be able to sue against this fund. Doing nothing encourages more anti semitic insults.
I will boost Israel trade across the UK
Despite Gaza war, UK-Israel trade up 28%
Boycott? What boycott?
Bottom line
£2.5 bn Current value of trade between UK and Israel
£1.6 bn Current value of Israeli exports to the UK
38% Rise in Israeli exports to the UK during first eight months of 2014
£957 m Current value of UK exports to Israel
The value of UK exports to Israel has risen over 14 per cent to £957 million.
@ SHmuel HaLevi 2:
Apparently as long as we regard the price as acceptable, No.
Sentiment appreciated.
However (and not to be putting too fine a point on it):
— for the record, Arabs are NOT ‘Semites’ — no way they COULD be — not genetically, not ‘racially,’ if you will.
They SPEAK a semitic language, it’s true.
However, there haven’t been any other semitic peoples than the Jews since probably well-before the Babylonian Captivity.
None of the other semitic peoples had made a comparably deliberate practice (as the Jews) of avoiding intermarriage since very early in the game
— so, while Arabs do have a few semitic forebears, the overwhelming bulk of their ancestry is hamitic & yaphetic; not semitic.
@ yamit82:
I would say that right now there’s a “pushka” – either physically or metaphorically – in just about every Jewish house in the US (except for the houses of those Polish blackhats you mentioned) and elsewhere in the Western hemisphere. The variety of requests for financial support seems to be endless. Some requests are for wounded Israeli soldiers, some are for help with absorption of new immigrants, etc. You get the picture.
On the other hand, we Jews have the word “Mitzvah” and this is a powerful incentive to help others, particularly the very disadvantaged. I think it’s great, but when these requests for charity are made at a political level, as we see, the picture becomes fuzzy.
And of course, referring to the quote above, when you’re wealthy, the easiest way to fulfill the mitzvah and make yourself feel good is to simply write a huge cheque (check) – doesn’t matter to whom, as long as it’s categorized as fulfilling a mitzvah. At least so they tell me… The other ways of supporting Israel will make one very unpopular – just ask Jonathan Pollard – and this isn’t what most socially adept people want.
@ bernard ross:
bernard ross Said:
I worked for a while for the Jewish agency promoting aliyah in the Upstate NY region.
Believe me Jews are very intelligent are mostly well read and usually up to date on current events. Since the internet there are a myriad of sources available to supply and support any position. Just as yourself and many others you have met on this and I am sure on other such blogs they too if they were really interested could reach similar conclusions just as you have. I think a year or two ago the absorption ministry produced come back home adds to try to get Israeli ex pats to return home. The American Jewish community to a man and women felt so threatened by those adds they put up a stink threatened the govt of Israel and Israel killed them. They were not even directed to the American Jewish community. American Jews are at best luke warm supporters of Israel almost to where it was in 1948. They will not abide anything they feel may compromise their positions as loyal American citizens and will in that frame always back the establishment American position. As long as there is no daylight between American Policy and that of Israel they feel secure and mostly supportive but when there is conflict and controversy they side with the American govt. and put pressure on Israel to bend to the American will.
Facts and truth will not budge them from their knee jerk circle the wagons supporting the American admin.
The problem is that since and even before the relationship between Israel and the American Jewish community has been financial they giving and we taking. Today we don’t need their money and need support in other ways and it’s not there.
yamit82 Said:
I agree, but the Jews in the diaspora are fed lies from govs and MSM and the Israeli gov NEVER disputes those lies wrt Jewish settlement and NEVER informs the diaspora of the real legal and moral positions. How else should the diaspora think when Israel is silent on Jewish settlement rights and accepts the insulting libels, and then to see those Polish black hats cavorting on behalf of Jew killers and supporting their canards? the diaspora thinks those Polish fake jews must have a point because they look like “Jews”.
yamit82 Said:
OR, will they instead just buckle under to the euro masters and give them what they want? Illegal Jewish settlement is an anti semitic libel and the euros keep slapping Jews in the face with these libels and insults and getting away with it. Perhaps the jews should aid and fund muslim “advances” in europe; if europe enters a “euro spring” it will be kept busy.
The jews do not see the EU as an enemy but rather as a neutral party with reasonable disagreements, this is a false perspective which lulls Jews into a false sense of security.
The EU is the enemy of the Jewish people, it is proven time and time again, but Jews will still make excuses for their serial and pathological behavior and thus ignore the danger posed by an ignored enemy.
I wonder if Israel has any policies in place to deal with the euro threats or will the GOI just wing it as usual? I would suggest that Israel should consider operating in tandem with the russians to cause the EU harm in the energy realm and to develop policies that automatically and mandatorily transfer the resultant damage of EU sanctions directly to the pals. Israel must develop its own carrots and sticks and a program to substitute for projected diminishing exports to the EU.
bernard ross Said:
Yes of-course but they have had years of practice and it’s hard to break old habits and traditions.
Israel under current leadership and system, Israel will just have to be forced into doing what they should have been always doing..
Groveling Jews is what they expect and we oblige.
A real symbiotic relationship. Lack of real support by the mostly liberal Jooos in America don’t help either.
This outcome results from the negligence of recurring GOI’s wrt the canard that Jewish settlement is illegal according to EU. However, EU nations signed onto the LON mandate, UN charter which obligated them to encourage Jewish settlement i all of palestine. Legally the signed agreements are the last internationally binding legal determinants on the issue other than jordan, egypt and Israel treaties and binding UNSC res 242 There is no legally binding international document which has replaced those cited.
Israel has failed to pursue legally and diplomatically in EU courts that the EU have violated their agreements with the “Jewish people” and Israel. Israel has allowed this canard to emerge from a public relations origin whereby the lie is repeated so often, with no rebuttal from Israel, that is has become the truth in the minds of the public and has established a consensus. Israel should be filing legal actions in European courts and operating diplomatically to demand its interests and rights which arise from agreements with EU nations.
Israel ALWAYS says and does nothing wrt “illegal” and “illegitimate” Jewish settlement, not even a single word has been said by a GOI in all my years of reading never mind actually taking legal and diplomatic action. It operates as if each libel is a new and separate libel as opposed to a long term decades growth of this unopposed canard. On this matter the GOI’s have been truly negligent and incompetent.
that which has been ignored and pooh poohed for decades is de facto Israel biggest problem that appears to have no gov action. Silly one time comments by BB and Liberman is pissing in the wind with no focus, direction or goal. It is pathetic.
dove Said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1TmeBd9338
We are expected to make peace while we have a gun held to our heads? The E.U. has deep religious views as to why they are doing this. It seems that all of our enemies are being driven by religion – it may be different religions – all with the same outcome for the Jewish people.
As in WWII we have already lost…..so now we must defeat the enemy. It’s not about ‘winning’ a war. It’s about defeating an enemy that has wreaked havoc on us. NEVER AGAIN!!
@ SHmuel HaLevi 2:
I agree. Call their bluff, and call it aggressively. If things are chaotic in the EU now, lets see if what they do with respect to Israel, helps or hinders their quest for “(e)utopia”.
Perhaps their “palestinian” brothers will be able to make up for the shortfalls that will occur in the fields of medicine, electronics, arms, etc. once they cut off trade with Israel.
Are we ever going to stop trembling and kissing posteriors?
Those that truly are worthy of our relations will stay, the rest, good riddance. Enough crawling and begging.
They murdered most of our people and would have done us all if the beasts had a chance.
Europe is being over run by their Semites of choice.
They got what they deserve.