By Ted Belman (first published Dec 10/14)
Two days ago I posted an article by Joel Pollak entitled Israel’s secular elite commit treason with “Palestine” letter. It was originally published by Breitbart’s and garnered considerable interest there from both the lovers and haters of Israel.
I exchanged comments with Justin and thought they should be posted here.
Justin • a day ago
Israel is playing with fire and its American apologists like Joel Pollak are stupidly fanning the flames.
The demographics are changing – the non-European Jews are having way more babies than their European counterparts while American Jews are increasingly embarrassed by Israeli politics and actions in the West Bank & Gaza. Support for Israel isn’t going to disappear overnight, but I think the Israelis overestimate American public support. Our support is not unconditional, nor should it be.
At some point it is fair to question whether the Israeli public wants peace more than it wants expansion, and I think we are well beyond that point. If Israel wants to act in a way that even Vladimir Putin wouldn’t condone, that’s Israel’s business, but Americans shouldn’t have to foot the bill.
Justin freedomfrind • a day ago
I will check it out, and I’ve seen some of the crap that the PA calls educational material, etc. There’s no equivalence in culture and civility between the two sides.
However, I must ask, regardless of Palestinian rhetoric, why does Israel continue to push settlements? What function does this serve? I am really curious to understand, because this is what troubles people like me who support Israel but feel it is undermining the process unnecessarily.
Ted Belman, Israpundit Justin • a day ago
Israel pushes settlements because Israel has the legal right to build in the territories and has never given up that right. Remember, the land is not occupied nor is it Palestinian and never was.
Secondly it is important to build so that the Arabs know time is not on their side. So long as they are not willing to compromise to find a solution the settlements will continue to grow. The moment Israel stops building the Arabs will have no incentive to settle as they alone will be able to build and they can wait 100 years. while they take advantage of the situation. Remember it is not their land and never was.
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I wrote this article a few years ago but it answers your question.
The Truth About ‘The Occupation’ and ‘The Settlements’lJustin Ted Belman, Israpundit • 9 hours ago
I read your article but I don’t quite follow what you think Israel and the US ought to seek to achieve.You seem to argue that the settlements are not illegal because the territories they encroach are not “Palestinian” territories. You do mention Resolution 242 but argue it doesn’t apply because there is no occupied power… yet.
The US (including the Bush admin) and most of the Western world has supported a two-state settlement for some time. It is taken for granted that any peace accord would result in an eventual Palestinian state. But if that is the case, Israel would have very little incentive to sign such an agreement, because it is a small country that would like to get as much of the useful land in the West Bank and even Gaza as it can muster. The moment a Palestinian state comes into existence, new settlement activity would necessarily cease.
Meanwhile, the Palestinians claim that the settlements are a great source of anger. They clash with the settlers and often it results in a greater and escalating display of force from both sides. Finally, when the violence ceases, Israel says “well see? This is why they cannot have a state!”
I must admit that I am biased towards the Israelis and against the Palestinians because I admire Israel’s culture and despise Islamist culture. Americans like myself perceive Israel to be full of basically European Jews who have basically built an entire developed country in about 75 years under the daily threat of violence.
But then when I think about it critically, I do think about the downsides. The main one being, of course, the enormous animosity that Israeli policy creates against Americans – even “moderate” Arabs generally dislike the US and hate Israel.
Now, regardless of whether their hate of Israel is justified, it is there nonetheless. And I think most Americans want Israel to do well and prosper. But the relationship must be a give and take. Israel can thrive without new settlements. It has all the capability in the world to do so. Unilaterally ending its settlement activity would generate goodwill in the short term and a little trust in the long term. It might be a first step toward peace. But Israeli politicians like Netanyahu clearly think otherwise – which leads me to conclude that either they are not interested in peace or they think they can get away with it indefinitely because the US will always support their policies.
Ted Belman, Israpundit Justin • 8 hours ago
The Mandate for Palestine gave Jews the right to settle Judea and Samaria. That right has never been cancelled nor can it be cancelled legally. Secondly R242 says nothing about settlements and says that Israel can remain in all the conquered territories until such time as they had secure and recognized borders.. That means until it has arrived at an agreement. But 242 never required Israel to withdraw from all the territories. Israel has already withdrawn from 90% of them (Sinai and Gaza). Some in Israel say that’s enough and no more withdrawal. The US and Britain can think and want what they want but it is Israel’s rights that are being denied and Israel’s neck that is at risk.If you had a tiger by the tail, so to speak, you would never let go as the tiger would turn on you and eat you. Similarly Israel doesn’t want to relinquish Judea and Samaria because that would put them at great risk and that is totally aside from their rights to the land. Israel has the legal right to this land and the world ignores that,.but why should Israel.
The world demands that Israel agree to a Palestinian state, not because the facts and the law support it but because the Arabs demand it.. In this regard, the world keeps saying that international law says Israel should do this and that but International law says no such thing.
The Palestinians don’t want a state and don’t want to sign a peace agreement with Israel. What they want is for Israel to disappear. You know “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” That’s their chant and it is in the Charters of Fatah and Hamas. Hamas’ Charter goes further and calls for the killing of all the Jews. Look it up.So what if our settlements anger them. They want what they have no right to.
It is wrong to talk of force on both sides. Israel is under attack and must defend itself. The arab force is aggressive and the Israeli force is defensive. there is no cycle of violence or any equivalency.
It will surprise you to learn that until the Russian Jews came in the eighties, half the country’s Jews came from the Arab world. In 1950 or so the Arab countries expelled about 900,000 Jews and confiscated their wealth. Most of them came to Israel and helped build the country.
You keep forgetting its Israel’s land. Why should she give it up. But the crux of the problem is that no amount of land is enough to achieve peace. The Arabs don’t want peace they want us dead.
May I suggest you visit Israpundit daily and sign up for its newsletter. You will soon learn the truth.Justin
Let me first say that I will sign up for the newsletter as I do like to hear different perspectives on issues. Even though the conflict is widely reported and editorialized, there is a strange uniformity which is limited to two or maybe three views.
There are two pillars of your response. You imply that Israel is the legal sovereign of at least the West Bank, and maybe Gaza, and you note that the Palestinians are not capable at this time of acting in good faith based on their behaviors and attitudes toward Jews and Israel. It follows that any concessions from Israel in a peace deal would be just that – concessions, not legal obligations – and that it is unreasonable to expect Israel to make concessions when they are likely to lead to more violence against Israel by Palestinians.
It wasn’t that long ago that I graduated from university and contrary to what you may believe, many students are aware of the Hamas charter, the Islamist character of Gaza in general, the ugliness of the Palestinian media, and so on. Perhaps the American media blacks this out, but I think that people learn one way or another about the anti-Semitic extremism of Arab “politics.” Of course when juxtaposed with Israeli culture it looks downright savage.
So I used to think, okay, the Israelis are just doing the best they can do put up with these aggressors in a humane way without compromising internal security. I wouldn’t want to worry about getting blown up at Sbarros – I would demand my politicians make sure that cannot happen.
Over here, I notice vastly fewer suicide bombings in Israel. I hear about the withdrawal from Gaza and the detente with Saudi Arabia. Things seem to be going well.Then, I read that Israel is secretly planning – well in advance – which chunks of the West Bank to allocate toward future settlements in A and B. They don’t deny this.
Now I am left with the impression that Israel is obviously not basing its policy strictly on security needs as we know that the settlements incite the Arabs and are a hotspot for violence. The Israeli planners know this as well, thereby trading some security for territorial expansion, at least in the sense of “changing the facts on the ground.”
Even if I accept your premise that Israel is sovereign over all of the West Bank, it doesn’t change the reality that the West Bank is currently an Arab-majority area with millions of angry residents. Their leaders, feckless as they may be, privately told them that they shouldn’t be violent so that Israel would freeze its settlement activity in the view of a future negotiation.
Now, those leaders look like Mohammad Chamberlains to the Arabs in the West Bank, or so they are told by the hardliners who are quicker to actually call for violence. I can imagine the extremism simmering in Gaza, where the population is more radicalized, and as you mention you really don’t even have to imagine it, it’s there.
Both Bush and now Obama have publicly pleaded for Israel to stop the settlement activity. Bush actually went a little further in condemning it, but in practice, both have not dramatically altered US policy by ceasing diplomatic cover, military aid, and so on. This doesn’t go unnoticed by the larger Arab world, putting an even larger target on the back of the United States.
So I am back where I started. You are surely aware of all of this, and further aware that most of the international legal community (even those in Western Europe) believe the settlements are in violation of international law. Even if they were not, they are seen as a major provocation, like when Sharon visited the Temple Mount, and the settlement activity is obviously more consequential than Sharon’s personal travels. Given that Israel knows all this, and yet still refuses to even halt settlement activity, it is hard for me to believe that they are not substantially compromising their security – especially that of the often newly-arrived settlers – in return for more internationally-recognized land and a better negotiating position.
Ted Belman
What is widely reported is lies and misinformation. This is what has informed public opinion just as it did in the thirties leading up to the holocaust. Listen to Amb Prosor’s speech at the UN.. Read The Jew of Nations: The Global Demonization of Israel . There are many more such articles. In short, the media is lying to its readers..Things are not going well. We withdrew from Gaza and uprooted 8,000 Jews from their homes that had been there for two generations. As a result we had to fight two wars with Hamas and endure over 10,000 rockets and over 100 casualties. So why would we withdraw from Judea and Samaria?
Bush and Obama say only that settlements are illegitimate, whatever that means, and an obstacle to peace. Yes they are an obstacle to the peace that Obama envisages. But we never agreed to that vision. They are trying to curry favour with the Arabs and don’t care about our rights or the law or the danger to Israel etc. Why should we listen to them?
Israel has no plans to build in A and B whatsoever so you have that totally wrong. Netanyahu has imposed a construction freeze even on C and in Jerusalem. The few housing approvals he has allowed that got so much attention are in Jerusalem and have yet to be built.
The Arab hatred of America is not due to her support of Israel. Remember America to them is the great Satan and Israel is the little Satan. They hate what America stands for.
As for your last paragraph, assume you bought your house and paid for it and the whole world wants to kick you out or not and to burn it down and cites that international law mandates it, would you fight them with all your strength. Of course you would and so does Israel.
I am going to post this exchange on Israpundit and my readers will comment on it. Your comments are also welcomed but first you also have to register.
I have taken the time with you because your heart is in the right place.
JUstin
Feel free to publish it; it’s always good to be able to access more dialog.
I skimmed over both the links you provided (they both have an errant parenthesis at the end) but I don’t see how they demonstrate an anti-Israel bias in the US media, The speech is made to the UN, which the US media consistently depicts as an inept dictators’ club in the few instances they do cover it. The only way I learn of the HRC’s activities is from reading lambasting editorials and television coverage pointing out the hypocrisy of its membership. The speech’s content is strictly an appe al to the UN leadership to recognize the moral superiority of Israel over the Palestinians, or at least their leadership. Again, that is taken for granted in the US media. Some pundits pointed out the media access granted to Israeli officials and the lack thereof to Hamas or the PA during the latest Israeli action in Gaza, but this is not an opinion – it’s a simple fact. Again, I would argue that it is appropriate to give much more weight to the Israeli officials than to violent fundamentalists and their “moderate” apologists in the West Bank, but I would not argue that there was a shred of evidence that any major US media outlet did not outrightedly favor Israel covering Protective Edge.
You seem to disparage the withdrawal from Gaza. I think it was a good move that the Israeli government completely squandered in its public opinion value. Most people in the US don’t even understand what it was or that it was a unilateral and publicly unconditional action. They also don’t know about the resettlement of the Israelis, and I don’t know the details. You have a point in that the media discussion of Gaza today often omits any recognition of the brave Israeli action. More importantly, to me, the US media uses the term “Hamas takeover” instead of “Hamas election” in almost every circumstance, giving false credence to the idea that the Gazans don’t support Hamas. Obviously, they do, and that is inconvenient for Palestinian apologists.
If you want to judge the withdrawal solely by the violence since the withdrawal, you must compare it to the violence prior to the withdrawal. Otherwise, it’s a false comparison. To my knowledge, the attacks on Israelis were much more frequent prior to the withdrawal, and thus on those grounds could be argued a success. But more importantly, what about the other criteria of success? What about long-term strategic goals? What about influencing Arab and world opinion? The Palestinians supported the withdrawal of course, but it must have changed at least a few hearts and minds. I do think that all people, even the Gazans, have both.
When you say that Bush and Obama favor a different vision of peace, I don’t know what that means. I know they do not favor dead Israelis if for no other reason than to avoid the wrath of the Israeli lobby and its impact on their electibility. You’ll have to be m ore explicit on this point, but I’m just saying that I don’t feel that Bush or even Obama want to harm the Israeli people.
When I referred to A and B, it was in the context of the planners and not the current policy. See http://www.haaretz.com/news/di… .
As to whether the Arabs hate America for its support of Israel or for its freedom, I would answ er “both.” I have watched many Salafist propaganda videos, including those by Anwar al-Alwaki, to see how they appeal to new recruits. The content of the political discussion is exclusively limited to US foreign policy, not the fact that we allow alcohol or have women in bikinis or don’t pray five times a day. On the other hand, I do think that jealousy is a factor, but it is economic jealousy. They have a perception that the US supports Arab tyrants to ensure access to energy resources, a perception that is more or less accurate. The Saudi government in particular is so contemptible that it is a humiliation that America continues to support it.
I would also mention that I don’t think Arabs hate Israelis and Americans for the same reasons. There is a religious aspect to th e hatred whose particular zeal only dates back a few hundred years, when reactionary Muslims were angry about colonialism. The Quarranic hatred of Jews is well-documented but Jews were treated poorly everywhere on Earth following the diaspora, not just in the Muslim states, and you can make a case that they were treated better in Muslim states at certain points in history.Moreover, I have noticed that Lebanese Christians and even the irreligious are very critical of Israel on the pretenses you ascribe to the European hard left. I would argue it is a cultural spillover and not a foreign import.
Finally, of course I would hate to be in Israel’s position. In fact I have often wondered why the Israelis don’t consider another plan, one in which an Israeli colony might be purchased somewhere far away from the Middle East as an insurance policy for a Jewish state. I guess that’s a big part of the problem – I can’t imagine myself in the shoes of, say, a settler, because I cannot imagine putting those shoes on.
In my view, the early Zionists picked just about the worst neighborhood on Earth to establish a tiny country with indefensible borders and no natural regional allies. I cannot imagine why someone would want to move to Israel today from, say, Europe or America, at such considerable risk and with the constant demonization you mention. Maybe you can help me understand this.
Ted Belman
To your last question, be advised that I moved here from Canada where I was born. I came because I love Israel and believe in her and the Jewish people’s right to self determination. I am participating in a glorious reconstitution of our ancient homeland. It is very exciting. Nowhere else will do. This is our home. It never was the home of the fake Palestinians who just came into existence 40 years ago. Jews have had a continuous presence in Israel for over 3000 years and their own kingdom there for 1000 years.
I have changed my opinion of you. I am not so sure your heart is in the right place,. You think Pollak is poisonous. I think he is a stalwart friend of Israel. You appear to hate right wingers of which I am one.
You came to the conclusion that it is dangerous for Israelis to cede any land then you go on to demand that we do. You understand that the Arabs want us dead yet you still want us to capitulate.
@ Justin:
Strictly speaking there is no such thing as International Law, for there is nobody authorized to pass such laws,no tribunal to interpret them, and no executive to enforce them.
Each nation is considered to its own territory,to have certain attributes we call sovereignty. It can work its own land as it wishes,provide its own government, and regulate its own affairs as it pleases and settle it’s own internal affairs as it sees fit. No nation has the right to interfere with the sovereignty of another which is in reality an act of war.
What passes for international laws are treaties that are non binding and only those who are signatories to those treaties are bound by them voluntarily.
America for the most part do not recognize International law or any law by any international forum that replaces existing American law or American sovereignty and freedom of action.
Only those specific treaties and protocols are binding on America if America voluntarily accepts their conditions and restrictions, which they do not most of the time in any case.
@ Justin:
Justin
We do not have to say a thing that anyone else would or would not accept. We will do whatever we see fit within the limits of our Land as they are set in the Oldest of Documents. Period. Saying or no saying what is that we plan in our realm is only for our reference.
We could care less if others agree to or not about our homes locations, farms locations and products, schools, etc. We promise not to tell you people where to live or farm or sell and ask you to refrain from telling or agreeing or not agreeing with us here.
Is all of that so difficult to internalize?
I hope not.
Be well.
@ SHmuel HaLevi 2:
Actually, I don’t think much of the rights of Muslims in Israel. If they were well-behaved, nonviolent, and reasonable, then maybe they’d be sympathetic figures. But instead, they vote for and support terrorism. They teach their children hate rather than arithmetic, and the result is a terribly ignorant and hostile population that knows little but demands much.
To be clear, my problem is not so much with the settlements themselves – Israel can do whatever it chooses – my problem is with the discrepancy between Israeli policy and action on settlements. My feeling is that the Israeli center-right is trying to have its cake and eat it too, much like the American center-right. We don’t cut them any slack in America, and I don’t cut them any slack in Israel. If Netanyahu’s real goal is to deport the Arabs in Israel, or at least those in Gaza and the West Bank, he ought to say so. Instead, he publicly waxes about a “creative” two-state solution while doing things that make such a solution more difficult to achieve. Say what you mean and mean what you say. Dishonesty is not a good tactic at any rate, and buys no sympathy from informed Americans or even the most callous and hateful Arabs.
As for international experts, again, if Israel’s policy is to disregard the international consensus, it should say so in explicit terms. That would force American politicians to adjust their own positions in terms that are clear and unilateral. It is Israel’s right to disregard international law, particularly when (as you surely know) the experts come from populations that either hate Israel or once openly hated Jews. I don’t begrudge Israel for disregarding the consensus, but I do begrudge it for saying it complies when it so clearly does not.
Finally, as for US military aid, let’s suppose for a moment that you are right and that Israel does not need the aid. Really, I don’t doubt it in the general sense, although I think Israel would do better with US fighter jets rather than second-rate Russian fighter jets. Same with gunships and other advanced systems. We’ve disagreed on this point before, and I’ll leave it at that. But even without the aid, Israel still gets plenty of cover from the US in the Security Council and the General Assembly. Don’t you think this matters? And furthermore, don’t you think the US (and really all of Western Europe) is basically obliged to shield Israel at the UN?
@ Justin:
I ask your permission to participate on this thread.
Justin,
I am fully in accord with you on equality of rights in Eretz Israel. Muslims here must never have less rights within our 3000 years old Land of Israel limits than Jews have in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, etc.
They must have exactly the same rights.
And furthermore. There must be the same number of mosques here as there are Synagogues in there as well. Not a one less.
International experts. The Land of Israel was pillaged away from us by invading European and Islamic murderous forces. Rome, Greece, the Islamic Sultanates and the British.
The Vatican hold in their vaults our Temple utensils.
Muslims settled into our Land. Both must be returned to us or else. We will build our homes, farms, factories, Synagogues, schools, etc, anywhere we want in the Land of Israel. No foreign power or individual shall interfere. Insolence of that type shall not be tolerated under any guise. We will not tell you folk where in the US you can build and you shall not ever assume the right to tell us where in the Land of Israel, whose limits are cast in iron in the oldest documents of record, we can build. Do not ever try that again.
US Military aid. Justin, you seem to dance around subjects you are ordered not to deal with.
The US can or not help us at will. I prefer to maintain constructive relations but not ever under threats and blackmail. I am a former Senior Fellow Engineer US Department of Defense Military Avionics Programs and invited consultant to the IMOD. I know all I need to know Justin.
We can easily live without the strings attached US help and in fact the US taxpayers must be given the choice to use the money to reduce the terrible debts load of the US.
You are entitled to your opinions and live with ours about you people.
You have a need to fix your internal social messes including race hatred, “INDIAN RESERVATIONS”, a huge debt load now over 18 trillion bucks. A terrible Health Care system, etc. You must do that before you spread “wisdom” to others.
We wish you well and demand from you to stay within the limits we accept regarding our rights.
@ Bear Klein:
Okay, if that is the case, then why doesn’t Israel remove the inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza (or whatever you want to call them) rather than making tiny expeditions with its recent immigrants to the West Bank? Even Netanyahu says he supports a land-for-peace style settlement, with preconditions, but it doesn’t seem as though he does things that would make such a peace deal likely.
If Israel really feels that it owns all of the territories involved it should say so rather than saying one thing and doing another.
Israel is hardly the only recipient of such a critique – the US often gets the same critique, as in its (in my opinion, stupid) policy of openly supporting “democracy” in the Arab world when we know that the Arab world is not yet ready for democracy and that the US is not ready to support it.
I’ve not once criticized Israel on grounds of its military operations in Gaza, its security policies, its demographic program, or the like. I’ve only criticized it on the grounds that it does not appear to be doing what it says it will do, which leaves the US in an awkward position.
@ yamit82:
I receive the message loud and clear that you don’t give a hoot what any American (who isn’t in lock-step agreement with you) thinks because said American is obviously an ignorant, misinformed, dishonest, ungrateful, and/or lefty apologist for Hamas terrorism.
I guess there isn’t much left for me to say to you given that there is absolutely no room for disagreement.
I will only mention that I highly disagree with your premise that Israel doesn’t need America or that America needs Israel more – some of the Republican candidates in the US (ie Rand Paul) are saying that as well, but the truth is that contrary to your opinion, Americans (including this one) like Israel and want Israel to succeed, and that any substantive dis-engagement with Israel would be morally unthinkable given the foreseeable consequences. So America, whether you think it cares or not, will continue to protect Israel, but it may not support Israeli actions wholeheartedly moving forward.
@ bernard ross:
Bernard, I don’t understand the hostility. I support Israel, I want Israel to do well, and I have no sympathy for terrorism or violent religious fundamentalism. You have a way of twisting my words to project upon me the most callous attitude possible toward Israel when in fact that is not my point of view. I’m going to briefly address a few points.
When I compared the plight of Israelis (including Arabs) with that of the rest of the ME, this was meant as a compliment to Israel, not an insinuation that Israel somehow keeps Arabs down. I don’t see how you could read it any other way, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt – something that you might try extending to others some time.
In mentioning the unpopularity of Israeli settlements (or whatever you want to call them) in the Arab world, I don’t mean to ascribe some kind of legitimacy to these sentiments. I’m merely pointing them out and saying, “these are unpopular.” Arabs also don’t like Jews in general, and that’s completely illegitimate and evil. Maybe (probably) their hatred of Jews is the largest factor in their hatred of the settlements, but whereas Jew-hatred has no basis in international law, opposition to settlements seems to have some basis in the law. You can say, “well, international law is wrong,” or anti-Semitic, or I have the wrong interpretation, etc, but I’m just pointing out the fact that a significant number, a majority in fact, of experts in the field do not believe that the Israeli settlements are legal.
If the US stopped providing Israel diplomatic and military cover, Israel would find itself in a precarious position. I want the US to continue covering for Israel at the UN and elsewhere precisely because I want Israel to succeed and because I think Israel is a great friend of the US. However, the settlements make it hard for the US to cover for Israel – the vast majority of the world thinks they are simply illegal – so I would think that if it were relatively easy to cease further settlements, Israel would do so in a heart beat.
As for the other ad hominem attacks, I will not give them any response other than to mention that it takes some serious mental gymnastics to read what I wrote and conclude I am a flaming liberal and opponent of Israel. Opposing one controversial Israeli policy does not make me an opponent of Israel any more than opposing the Iraq War makes me an opponent of the US.
mar55 Said:
I disagree I think my response was superior and more to the point but that’s my subjective opinion.
Phoenix in now bumming around the Promised Land.
@ yamit82:
Congratulation to Bernard Ross for explaining point by point what an ignoramus this Justin is. yamit82 your way to congratulate BR with you empty both barrels is hilarious. You are not far behind either and Samuel his love for Israel as you two always show. BTW where is Phoenix? He has disappeared from this place. Is he still around? I miss him.
Poll: Most Palestinian Arabs Support Recent Terror Wave
An overwhelming majority of Palestinian Arabs support the recent spate of terrorist attacks against Israelis, new poll finds.
@ yamit82:
Terrorist Car Attack Suspected in Samaria
Arab car crashes into barriers at hitchhiking station in suspected attack attempt; soldiers not wounded, driver in moderate condition.
@ bernard ross:
Israeli family targeted in West Bank acid attack
A Palestinian attacked six Israelis with acid on Friday near a tunnel checkpoint in the West Bank.
The suspect was shot in the leg prior to his arrest; he remains in serious condition.
@ bernard ross:
I think if your Justin actually read your comments his head must be spinning like a top by know. You emptied both barrels. 🙂
@ Justin:
did you make this lie up? support this with evidence and a source. I have never heard of Israeli projects for Jews in A&B. POST THE SOURCE OF THIS RUBBISH!
Post the source of this claim.
Pure nonsense with not one shred of basis in fact. I suspect you were born yesterday if you are not dishonest. Even a high school student would not write such ignorant drivel. check the facts existent in the world today and see if your comment makes any sense whatsoever when compared to FACTS! You said you are not religious but this comment requires a belief in miracles.
most of your foolish opinions are based on “how things look”…. in the real world one deals with facts. simmering extremism in gaza will result in more dead enemies… for that I am grateful.
most wire services inc AP and reuters manipulated the info especially on the human shields and firing of rockets from UN facilities and school. you need to get out of the MSM if you want any shred of reality. You are obviously ignorant.
“the road to hell is paved with good intentions”. The US is well known for its INCREDIBLE ignorance in foreign policy matters and especially the ME. It is repeatedly making the most ridiculous comments and judgement in the ME. US ignorance resembles a bull in a china shop.
You made so many similar comments and yet you still believe that the Jews should stop supervising these insane nutters. Its like a dangerous murderer being locked up in prison or in a mental institution… he does not get released until HE proves he is not a danger. No one expects that dangerous murderers should roam free in the street and the cause of their pathology is irrelevant to the danger they pose. Insane collectives who teach their children to slaughter Jews should not have a shred of unsupervised freedom until AFTER they PROVE that their threat to society has disappeared. this is nowhere near a reality. However, even if and when this passes there is not one shred of a valid reason why Jews should give away their rights and their homeland to please swindlers.
@ Justin:
Actually historically and legally Israel has a right to all of the Land of Israel.
It has offered several times even before the reestablishment of the state in 1948 to split the land because another people also live there. The UN partitioned it and Israel agreed and the Arabs went to war. Israel did not possess the West Bank or Gaza from 1948 until 1967 when the Arabs attacked again. Israel won the war and regained land it had a right to both for defense and historically plus on the basis of the San Remo treaty in 1920.The Arabs always rejected splitting the land.
The PLO charter of 1964, stated they want Israel proper not Gaza which they said was property of Egypt and the West Bank which was the property of Jordan. So there is great evidence that the Palestinians or Arabs want it all. The Arabs want it all because they consider Israel to be a Muslim land just like Spain and the Balkans. If they get the Judah and Samaria (west bank) they will try to capture the rest of Israel in spite of many people choosing or not caring to accept the obvious.
Justin Said:
Generally speaking your posts are devoid of ANY grounds whether legal, moral, historical or factual other than citing the facts of the displeasure felt by the lynch mob cooking up false narratives.
Justin Said:
TACTICAL? I see no tactical grounds in your posts. You suggest to cease settlement and give up Jewish rights to the Jewish land on the basis of pleasing the lynch mob. You call that tactics? Please show me where are your “TACTICS” and on what facts are they based? TACTICS normally arise from strategies which arise from assessments of fact but most of your post is based on the repetition of lies and opinions. Repeating libelous rumors and canards is not the same as citing facts but those who have swindling agendas appear to be quite adept at such TACTICS.
Justin Said:
Are you insane????? From where do you get such absurd notions? why would you even suggest such a possibility? Who does such things? is it the throat slitting honor killers or the Nobel prize winners. If you want to be taken seriously you must cease blathering your insane ideas about Jews.
Justin Said:
Another typical BDS deception and twisting of facts. American support is even stronger today even while you and your crew manufacture false bogey men. 3.7 billion just approved overtly and never mind the covert budget, this is because they know the value of israel.
Justin Said:
rubbish, you are a troll for spreading deception and trying to create false impressions and bogeymen, we have already seen the same MO many times, you are a spring chicken in experience and a known entity here. furthermore, the Israeli gov perpetuates the same canards by not claiming jewish settlement rights, but the effects of the stockholm syndrome still persist even in Israel and they are afraid of what the ususal nutter suspects will do to the jews. Get your facts straight before foolishly speaking.
Justin Said:
Generic rubbish which seeks to equate your minority dwindling views with those of the american majority. Your ilk are squeaking wheels but perhaps you have noticed that they get no real grease. All the BDS noise produces little real effect, just drama for campus fools.
Justin Said:
one may be entitled to their opinions but not their facts. i called you a troll not becuase of youropinion but because of your behavior which I have already enumerated prior. You reflect what many of us already are familiar with: you parrot the same canards as the typical BDS liars, you cajole us to give up what is ours with empty advice to keep the world happy, with threats of demographics, with threats of dwindling american support, etc etc etc. YOur MO is well known here.
Justin Said:
In other words they fall into the camp of the “useful idiots”; I assume you are aware of that term used by Lenin. Their camp reflects ignorance, naivete and arrogance at its best but many in it are outright dishonest liars concocting facts just like the taqiyya arabs create fake videos and fake accounts like the al dura scandal and the Jenine “massacre” If you had a shred of knowledge beyond that of a clone parroting the mantras of liars you would be aware of the INCREDIBLY MASSIVE industry of manufacturing lies and lynching the Jewish people.
The same culture which brought you head chopping, throat slitting, honor killing, suicide bombing, apostate slaughtering, infidel murder, schoolgirl kidnapping, child human shields, etc etc etc is the same culture and the same reporters from which your facts are source… the NYT does the same as you. You choose to belive them over the culture that every day makes constructive advances for the world. Israel and the Jews must weather the storm of ignorance and lies as it has for thousands of years. If you wish to remain an ignorant or dishonest parroting clone then that is your choosing, do not include us in your folly which is already blowing back on europe and the US.
Justin Said:
Israel enjoys the support of most americans. The US also needs Israel which is the main reason for the govs logical support. Israel is the only ME nation which has not in the past blocked US of their territory or facilities when it was needed or requested by the US. The Other so-called allies allow it only when it suits them. Israel is the only nation who suffer casualties heeding the US request not to answer to direct attacks from arab nations. Justin Said:
this statement shows your ignorance and naiveté. All nations practice deceptive diplomacy to some extent especially the US. When the obama admin propagates the lie and libelous canard that Jewish settlement in any part of the land of israel is illegitimate then he has made himself an enemy of the Jewish people, including ignorant Jewish liberal fools in america. Those who seek to mislead others must be deceived and mislead in order to escape the existential danger to the Jewish people. Obama cannot be on the same page if he says “illegitimate”, he is a liar and one can only wonder about his purpose. Obama is not the american people, far from it.
Justin Said:
Your consideration of yourself is inaccurate, similarly to Jstreet Parroting dangerous and libelous canards undermines Israel and endangers the Jewish people. If you are not dishonest then find proper sources for your “facts”
Justin Said:
In that case, if you read any accurate history you should be aware of the 2000 years of libels, swindles, torture and slaughter perpetrated on the Jewish people by the org you call a religion. although many individual catholics support Israel the RC church is trying to swindle the Jews of its land in Jerusalem at this time.
Justin Said:
Many more american catholics are not sympathetic to the pal side, in which case I must wonder why you emphasize the opposite of fact.
Justin Said:
This is the key phrase which indicates either your extreme naiveté, extreme ignorance or extreme dishonesty. Your own stated evidence should lead you immediately to opposite conclusions. The plight of the arabs is due to their own cultural limitations both ethnically and religiously. They suffer everywhere outside of Israel except where they sit on oil produced by foreigners. The obvious answer to anyone would be DUH????? Wherever arabs cooperate with Jews they are successful, thus on a sliding scale they are most successful in Israel, then in YS and then in gaza the least. All the other arab countries in ME and africa suffer and strive. they are the problem and not Israel. Therefore your reasoning is defective or you are dishonest.
Justin Said:
factually you are not providing a majority american opinion, most americans support Israel. Obama is now highly unpopular in USA and this while congress keeps ratcheting up its support. You are the minority.
Justin Said:
therefore you advise Israel and the Jews to give the lynch mob what they want regardless of the factual, basis,, the legality or the morality. Arguments like this which pepper your posts are dishonest and insulting to all Jews. Those like yourself are the same as the europeans who decided to give their Jews to the nazis for what they thought would be a more peaceful life for themselves.
Justin Said:
It is only difficult for the ignorant and the dishonest. the USA and European nations signed and guaranteed in various legally binding documents to “facilitate Jewish immigration and encourage the close settlement of the Jewish people in the palestine mandate territory”. these rights of settlement do not expire with the mandate and this prime directive of the mandate remains unfulfilled due to the obstruction of the swindlers.(San Remo, LON Mandate, UN Charter art 80). that is the legal part and it is based on the declared recognition of the historical connection of the Jewish people to the land of Israel. therefore, suggesting Africa is insulting, irrelevant and perpetuates the crime of the hijacking of the Jewish bible, land and culture by the european christian collective and their physical and cultural descendants. BDS churches today practice the same libels as of yore while they fund arab NGO’s connected with Jew killing arab orgs. Therefore these churches are aiding and abetting the murder of Jews as they always did. You need to read more.
@ Justin:
O.K. Justin you are not religious and only rely on evidence.
Well I too only rely on evidence even though I am religious.
Your confusion, I surmise is because you are a Christian and as such if you were religious you would have only faith to rely on, not evidence.
I as a Jew am not so limited as my religion is based on demonstrable truth and not simply faith. To explain, you have to have faith as a Christian that Jesus was the son of, prophet of or whatever of G-d. As a Jew I have the veracity of three million witnesses of Divine revelation equal to any historic truths that we all accept on evidence and not simply faith.
Having said that, let’s leave religion aside. And if “truth” established by evidence is the arbiter of what you hold true, you can relegate Christian sympathy with the palestinians and world opinion to the same category as faith.
Why you ask. Simply because the truth is that international law gives only Jews political rights in the lands west of the Jordan River. That’s fact.
So why the Christian sympathy with the palestinians and why the world opinion if contrary to the “truth”.
As for the Christians, do they express concern for the Kurds? The Yazidis? How about the millions of Christian Arabs being butchered and ethnically cleansed by ISIS? Not a peep or hardly any! Oh but for the Palestinians they scream bloody murder. Really?? Those pillars of humanity that danced at 9/11 and worship death. Really?
And that world opinion also suffers from the same anti-semitism that most of those paly-sympathetic Christians exhibit but here one can’t put the entire blame on that age old hatred as Israel is equally to blame buying into the Oslo lies. You can’t expect the Christians to be more Catholic than the Pope after all.
So if you like evidence and truth. there you have it.
Justin Said:
Isn’t that the same excuse battered women give for remaining with an abusive male ?????? I need the support !!!
Justin Said:
If you made them then you own them!!
I am not on American campuses and your point is irrelevant.
We didn’t make a comparative analysis of opinions in different venues or groups but responded to your stated views which you have admitted were “too harsh”. If you now admit they were too harsh why did you make them? Do you have a problem with honesty?
“Israel executing tons of Arabs in the street”? Interesting Imagery!!! While Israel has for the most part of her history had the ability to wipe out every last vestige of Arab maggots among us, in fact more Jews have been “executed in the streets (OUR STREETS) by Arabs than the converse.
Speaking only for myself I don’t care if you support us or not and if such support is conditional based on your views I don’t want your support “you can go drink the water off Gaza” (Famous saying of Jew murderer Arafat) for all I care.
As to being a “Librul”?? American stupid political labels don’t cut it here in Israel we speak a different language and view the world from a different time zone than you do.
You can probably find no more than 2 out of ten students from the best campuses in America who can find Israel on a map. Their opinions may carry disproportionate weight in America but here they remain not more than a curiosity.
Matter of fact more Arabs are offed by other Arabs than by Jews in Israel and our OUR as yet annexed territories.
I have long contended that it’s best for us to dump you fools and go it without your conditional support, we at least would be much better off. Truth be evaluated; America needs us a lot more than we need America especially those like yourself.
After reading your “Opinions” 😛 , I offer this Jewish dictum:
@ SHmuel HaLevi 2:
If you bother to read anything I wrote you would see that my concerns are on TACTICAL grounds, I never made a mention of MORAL concerns at all. America is not in the process of settling on Native American grounds, because that was done years ago…
@ bernard ross:
Well, one is entitled to his opinions, but I don’t like being called a “troll” for expressing some my own.
My initial comments were too harsh, I’ll give you that, but if you’ve been on an American university campus recently you would know that I would fall into the camp of “supporters of Israel” in American discourse, even if you don’t see it that way.
Of course Israel gets to make its own decisions about immigration, defense, and internal security. However, if Israel began to, say, start executing tons of Arabs in the street, it would be impossible for America not to respond with at least some sort of condemnation, etc. Maybe you think American support isn’t that useful, but I highly disagree.
I’m just kind of annoyed that I get called a liberal and a troll for simply expressing any degree of skepticism about any claims from the Israeli government. Americans are naturally skeptical of all governments, even those of close allies.
@ Bear Klein:
Well you are wrong, because I’m reading it now buddy! Maybe it was a stupid comment but it is my perception. Trust me, if you think I am ignorant of the subtleties of Judaism and differences between Jewish people, you would be appalled by that of most Americans!
Israel needs America and therefore needs the support of most Americans. If Israel thinks settlements are legal and the right way to go, and wants America to continue military support, it should say so openly to Americans, not make vague or misleading statements about future activities. That way everyone is on the same page.
@ Yidvocate:
Hey, watch it there! I don’t consider myself a liberal and I do consider myself a supporter of Israel.
I will admit that I am not religious despite growing up as a Catholic. You would be surprised (well, maybe not, given the history) that many American Catholics are sympathetic towards the Palestinians and you probably know that Christian Zionists tend to come from the evangelical side of the spectrum. That said, I am irreligious, so religious arguments hold very little weight with me.
What does hold weight is evidence, and I see a lot of evidence that Israelis thrive while Arabs struggle to survive – except for the ones in Israel proper, who actually seem to do quite well. I respect Israeli accomplishments in all fields. I work with several Israelis, all secular, but sons of immigrants who came with very little and ended up successful in highly technical fields. I also see that Israel is the only country in the Middle East with the similar values to American values, especially those I find most important: equality before the law and personal freedom.
So if it is not clear, I love Israel, I respect Israel, and I want Israel around. I am just providing my opinion, as an American, that Israel’s settlement policies are unpopular all across the world, seem to anger the Arabs, and are difficult to defend on legal grounds.
Ted Belman Said:
I did see the end but wanted to have a little fun 🙂
I do not think it is a good tactic as settling Jews is a matter of principle and using it as a tactic diminishes that principles strength and makes the Jews look like schnorers. Either it is our right or it isn’t, which is exactly what is gong on: we do not treat it as our right(legal and moral) and have lost credibility on that subject. If Israel is willing to give up some of the land for peace it has no bearing on the time prior to achieving that peace. Jewish settlement should not be subject to ANY actions or non actions of the pals. jews should keep settling It makes no sense to consider non settlement in the absence of any final agreement . Sorry, Jewish settlement should NOT be used as a delaying tactic. You using it as the second reason throws out the first reasons credibility but it is also not just a legal right but it is our homeland. It is only power and the willingness to use it that separates us from our full homeland. the pals have no power but still claim their narratives, Israel does not claim or own its own narrative. this is why Israel is the worlds ping pong ball, they are the Jews willing to bargain away their homeland in a bazaar, they get no respect for that, and rightly so….just like rodney.
@ Pith from Pinhas: Actually in a lot of families including mine Sephardic and “European Jews” have intermarried (including me)!
The comment was just one of many ignorant and stupid comments by this individual. Trust me he will NOT be reading this blog in-spite of saying he would!
Pith from Pinhas Said:
This is a given no non Jews support should be expected to be unconditional but a Jews is. Any Jew making his support for Israel conditional is in MO traitorous and that so called Jew should be marginalized and written off by all supporters of Israel for what they are: …Supporters of those who want to kill Jews because they are Jews.
I wonder how many of the German Jews were like These Jewish Voices For Peace?
Are there any recorded cases of a Jew being shoved in the oven while yelling, “But I adore Hitler!”
Justin and his cumpas support is conditional. Sob! Now I am hurt. Still, pained as I am let me re assure sweet Justin. I’ll get over it Justin.
About that West Bank you are talking about. I have no idea what a West Bank is. Trying as hard as I did, still could not find a Bank with that name.
If my guess is correct the troll is referring, under State Department and J backstreet guidance, to our ancestral Lands of Judea and Samaria.
Consequently let say good by Justin and ask him to please call us when he refers to our lands by their ancestral names.
Meanwhile and until his controllers relent, (right), and in view of his dedication to the causes. I suggest to young Justin to invest his time on disbanding the concentration camps his people call “Indian Reservations” all 428 of them. There you go Justin! A job tailored to people like you who cares…
I can help you with contacts, been invited to several of them and can help you Justin. My family include a section who has Native American blood lines. Not my line, second cousins on father’s side. Yet we were received like family members. Tell me if you need any help making sure Native Americans are freed and their land returned Justin. GO! You can do it my friend.
I find it amazing that neither you Ted nor any of your commenters seems to have risen to the racist nature of the remarks above.
Actually, Justin, the “picking” of BOTH the family plot and the neighborhood was done FOR the “early Zionists” — not ‘by’ them — and at a somewhat earlier point in time than you intimate:
“Now the LORD said unto Abram: ‘Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto the land that I will show thee.”
So you see, it was actually somebody Else who did the “picking,” and as it happens He left no doubt as to His intentions in the matter.
Perhaps you’d care to look it up sometime. Gen 12:1
@ bernard ross:If you read the end of the post you will see that I was not suckered in the end. I think he is a J Street kind of guy. The reason I always mention the time element is to use an argument with the left that building is a good tactical idea as opposed to not building.
another BDS failure
Yidvocate Said:
He did not fail, he is disingenuous
Ted wises up after playing troll ping pong 😛
this clueless troll believes the Jews should throw away their homeland to get a few arab hearts and minds.
when one wallows in ignorance it is advisable to keep silent and listen.
a facetious troll
Someone this cluseless about the link between the Jews and their homeland of Israel should be too ashamed to post on the subject.
most of Justins arguments are based on how things look to the swindlers rather than what is right and just for the Jews.
they could not believe this as they signed agreements to the opposite to “facilitate immigration and settlement of the Jewish people in the palestine mandate territory”. they say they believe it but they are lying in a swindle of the Jews… should the Jews accede to this swindle in your mind? its time Justin and his associates stop trying to swindle the jews of their land and settlement rights in their historic homeland.
Jews = Israel…..
Arabs = Arabia
justin wants to trade the Jews for his convenience and comfort at best but at worst he is one of the many swindlers. Justin pretends he cares about Israels security and demographics, perhaps he should leave those concerns to the Israelis.
ted, this troll Justin wants us to worry about how every one else feels: the arabs, the euros, the un,blah blah blah
its as if the Jews do not exist except as a target for swindling.
this Justin nauseates me, all of his arguments are deceptive swindles that have nothing to do with the Jewish rights to their homeland. My view is that their should be no negotiations or talks until the Jews expelled from arab lands are given justice and until every arab school ceases teaching vile anti semitism to its children. Tell Justin to cease trying to swindle Jews and to write to the arabs with the comparable arguments. I am sick of these con artists.
Ted, I think you have been suckered by another troll, albeit a sohisticated troll. It’s all about getting the jews to give away what belongs to them. Each time you give a reason he tells you some ethereal BS. Basically he appeals to all aspects of your psyche to see in which areas you are vulnerable. first do it for legality, then for foreign approval, then for a peaceful life,then to look moral, then telling you its a dangerous area go to africa, etc etc etc It is not rocket science except to the disingenuous.
I do not agree with this: Jewish settlement in the historical Jewish homeland is legal and legitimate. There is no reason why it should be subject to any actions of the arabs for peace or war. International law supports it and anyone who does not seek to coerce,swindle the jews of their land should also support it. area c is primarily vacant land with a majority of Jews. However, its all moot in this case..I believe tha “Justin” sounds very similar to the last troll with whom you corresponded. Perhaps it is the same person, the speech patterns are the same, the soft questioning and patronizing attitude are the same, the typical trick of agreeing with you and then pulling you out with another argument is the same…I think it is the same disingenuous troll arriving with double standards and a swindling agenda. There is no reason for anyone to be asking Jews to make any more concessions, period!!!!!
People have opinions about Israel. These are not necessarily based on deep knowledge or research. Most Americans are not very well versed on Israel.
Polls says they are mostly positive. The off the cuff remarks by people like this about Israel are not hugely meaningful in isolation.
SHmuel HaLevi 2 Said:
Overly dramatic assertion even bombastic.
@ Laura:
I think too much has been made over and how much public support Israel commands in America and virtually every other place.
That said it is always better to have some support than not but it is not now or ever have been a determinant in our history. Public opinion at best is ficle and I’ve seen it reverse itself on a dime.. It can never be counted on when needed most Never.
It’s bad for Israel to believe we need such support for our continued existence as it colors decisions crucial to our survival and national interests and most of the time against our national interests.
If the world isn’t furious at Israel, Israel is failing to protect itself. The world bitching about the rotten Israelis is good thing. Being unpopular is a small price to pay for staying alive, especially when you’d be unpopular anyway.
American public support for Israel is solid and has been even during times when the rest of the world is ganging up on the Jewish state. People like Justin have been making this warning for years.
Justin seems well informed on superficial realities but fails dismally to see the core reality and the big picture. That the early Zionist picked the worst place is not the issue as if Jews were canvasing the globe for a safe haven. Justin, Israel is the eternal home of the Jewish people, gifted by G-d Almighty no less! There is no other place for Jews. Israel is the RE-establishment of today, the THIRD not the first Jewish state. The Arabs may have treated Jews “well” during our exile but only as dhimmis, if you can call that “well”, but a Jew sovereign in his homeland that is an entirely different matter. That transforms the Jew into the “Satan” that must be destroyed. That is their singular aim and no amount of land concessions can appease those sentiments. In fact what you consider “good will” generating appeasement, in the Arab mind is only a sign of weakness and encouragement to greater hostilities. You also don’t have all your facts straight such as your embarrassing statement that there was more Arab hostilities emanating from Gaza before Israel’s self-expulsion in 2005 than there was after. Media grotesquely favouring Hamas over Israel during the last Gaza conflict was so patently obvious, yet you didn’t see it speaks volumes of where your head is at!
Every day that goes by, the evidence grows on that we must iron up and become stern and decisive.
Against the standard array of “Gentiles”, Islam and also the renegade unJews. The later must pay for their causing thousands of casualties, loss of standing and readiness.
Wrath must be presented to them, not negotiations or dialog. They must understand that jeopardy will be upon them in a terrible way when they assault us and our rights.
No time for articulations. Our people must select the correct leaders now or perish.