By Ted Belman (first published Dec 10/14)
Two days ago I posted an article by Joel Pollak entitled Israel’s secular elite commit treason with “Palestine” letter. It was originally published by Breitbart’s and garnered considerable interest there from both the lovers and haters of Israel.
I exchanged comments with Justin and thought they should be posted here.
Justin • a day ago
Israel is playing with fire and its American apologists like Joel Pollak are stupidly fanning the flames.
The demographics are changing – the non-European Jews are having way more babies than their European counterparts while American Jews are increasingly embarrassed by Israeli politics and actions in the West Bank & Gaza. Support for Israel isn’t going to disappear overnight, but I think the Israelis overestimate American public support. Our support is not unconditional, nor should it be.
At some point it is fair to question whether the Israeli public wants peace more than it wants expansion, and I think we are well beyond that point. If Israel wants to act in a way that even Vladimir Putin wouldn’t condone, that’s Israel’s business, but Americans shouldn’t have to foot the bill.
Justin freedomfrind • a day ago
I will check it out, and I’ve seen some of the crap that the PA calls educational material, etc. There’s no equivalence in culture and civility between the two sides.
However, I must ask, regardless of Palestinian rhetoric, why does Israel continue to push settlements? What function does this serve? I am really curious to understand, because this is what troubles people like me who support Israel but feel it is undermining the process unnecessarily.
Ted Belman, Israpundit Justin • a day ago
Israel pushes settlements because Israel has the legal right to build in the territories and has never given up that right. Remember, the land is not occupied nor is it Palestinian and never was.
Secondly it is important to build so that the Arabs know time is not on their side. So long as they are not willing to compromise to find a solution the settlements will continue to grow. The moment Israel stops building the Arabs will have no incentive to settle as they alone will be able to build and they can wait 100 years. while they take advantage of the situation. Remember it is not their land and never was.
If you want to be informed of the law, facts and reasoning, on a daily basis, sign up for Israpundit’s Daily Digest. at israpundit.org
I wrote this article a few years ago but it answers your question.
The Truth About ‘The Occupation’ and ‘The Settlements’lJustin Ted Belman, Israpundit • 9 hours ago
I read your article but I don’t quite follow what you think Israel and the US ought to seek to achieve.You seem to argue that the settlements are not illegal because the territories they encroach are not “Palestinian” territories. You do mention Resolution 242 but argue it doesn’t apply because there is no occupied power… yet.
The US (including the Bush admin) and most of the Western world has supported a two-state settlement for some time. It is taken for granted that any peace accord would result in an eventual Palestinian state. But if that is the case, Israel would have very little incentive to sign such an agreement, because it is a small country that would like to get as much of the useful land in the West Bank and even Gaza as it can muster. The moment a Palestinian state comes into existence, new settlement activity would necessarily cease.
Meanwhile, the Palestinians claim that the settlements are a great source of anger. They clash with the settlers and often it results in a greater and escalating display of force from both sides. Finally, when the violence ceases, Israel says “well see? This is why they cannot have a state!”
I must admit that I am biased towards the Israelis and against the Palestinians because I admire Israel’s culture and despise Islamist culture. Americans like myself perceive Israel to be full of basically European Jews who have basically built an entire developed country in about 75 years under the daily threat of violence.
But then when I think about it critically, I do think about the downsides. The main one being, of course, the enormous animosity that Israeli policy creates against Americans – even “moderate” Arabs generally dislike the US and hate Israel.
Now, regardless of whether their hate of Israel is justified, it is there nonetheless. And I think most Americans want Israel to do well and prosper. But the relationship must be a give and take. Israel can thrive without new settlements. It has all the capability in the world to do so. Unilaterally ending its settlement activity would generate goodwill in the short term and a little trust in the long term. It might be a first step toward peace. But Israeli politicians like Netanyahu clearly think otherwise – which leads me to conclude that either they are not interested in peace or they think they can get away with it indefinitely because the US will always support their policies.
Ted Belman, Israpundit Justin • 8 hours ago
The Mandate for Palestine gave Jews the right to settle Judea and Samaria. That right has never been cancelled nor can it be cancelled legally. Secondly R242 says nothing about settlements and says that Israel can remain in all the conquered territories until such time as they had secure and recognized borders.. That means until it has arrived at an agreement. But 242 never required Israel to withdraw from all the territories. Israel has already withdrawn from 90% of them (Sinai and Gaza). Some in Israel say that’s enough and no more withdrawal. The US and Britain can think and want what they want but it is Israel’s rights that are being denied and Israel’s neck that is at risk.If you had a tiger by the tail, so to speak, you would never let go as the tiger would turn on you and eat you. Similarly Israel doesn’t want to relinquish Judea and Samaria because that would put them at great risk and that is totally aside from their rights to the land. Israel has the legal right to this land and the world ignores that,.but why should Israel.
The world demands that Israel agree to a Palestinian state, not because the facts and the law support it but because the Arabs demand it.. In this regard, the world keeps saying that international law says Israel should do this and that but International law says no such thing.
The Palestinians don’t want a state and don’t want to sign a peace agreement with Israel. What they want is for Israel to disappear. You know “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” That’s their chant and it is in the Charters of Fatah and Hamas. Hamas’ Charter goes further and calls for the killing of all the Jews. Look it up.So what if our settlements anger them. They want what they have no right to.
It is wrong to talk of force on both sides. Israel is under attack and must defend itself. The arab force is aggressive and the Israeli force is defensive. there is no cycle of violence or any equivalency.
It will surprise you to learn that until the Russian Jews came in the eighties, half the country’s Jews came from the Arab world. In 1950 or so the Arab countries expelled about 900,000 Jews and confiscated their wealth. Most of them came to Israel and helped build the country.
You keep forgetting its Israel’s land. Why should she give it up. But the crux of the problem is that no amount of land is enough to achieve peace. The Arabs don’t want peace they want us dead.
May I suggest you visit Israpundit daily and sign up for its newsletter. You will soon learn the truth.Justin
Let me first say that I will sign up for the newsletter as I do like to hear different perspectives on issues. Even though the conflict is widely reported and editorialized, there is a strange uniformity which is limited to two or maybe three views.
There are two pillars of your response. You imply that Israel is the legal sovereign of at least the West Bank, and maybe Gaza, and you note that the Palestinians are not capable at this time of acting in good faith based on their behaviors and attitudes toward Jews and Israel. It follows that any concessions from Israel in a peace deal would be just that – concessions, not legal obligations – and that it is unreasonable to expect Israel to make concessions when they are likely to lead to more violence against Israel by Palestinians.
It wasn’t that long ago that I graduated from university and contrary to what you may believe, many students are aware of the Hamas charter, the Islamist character of Gaza in general, the ugliness of the Palestinian media, and so on. Perhaps the American media blacks this out, but I think that people learn one way or another about the anti-Semitic extremism of Arab “politics.” Of course when juxtaposed with Israeli culture it looks downright savage.
So I used to think, okay, the Israelis are just doing the best they can do put up with these aggressors in a humane way without compromising internal security. I wouldn’t want to worry about getting blown up at Sbarros – I would demand my politicians make sure that cannot happen.
Over here, I notice vastly fewer suicide bombings in Israel. I hear about the withdrawal from Gaza and the detente with Saudi Arabia. Things seem to be going well.Then, I read that Israel is secretly planning – well in advance – which chunks of the West Bank to allocate toward future settlements in A and B. They don’t deny this.
Now I am left with the impression that Israel is obviously not basing its policy strictly on security needs as we know that the settlements incite the Arabs and are a hotspot for violence. The Israeli planners know this as well, thereby trading some security for territorial expansion, at least in the sense of “changing the facts on the ground.”
Even if I accept your premise that Israel is sovereign over all of the West Bank, it doesn’t change the reality that the West Bank is currently an Arab-majority area with millions of angry residents. Their leaders, feckless as they may be, privately told them that they shouldn’t be violent so that Israel would freeze its settlement activity in the view of a future negotiation.
Now, those leaders look like Mohammad Chamberlains to the Arabs in the West Bank, or so they are told by the hardliners who are quicker to actually call for violence. I can imagine the extremism simmering in Gaza, where the population is more radicalized, and as you mention you really don’t even have to imagine it, it’s there.
Both Bush and now Obama have publicly pleaded for Israel to stop the settlement activity. Bush actually went a little further in condemning it, but in practice, both have not dramatically altered US policy by ceasing diplomatic cover, military aid, and so on. This doesn’t go unnoticed by the larger Arab world, putting an even larger target on the back of the United States.
So I am back where I started. You are surely aware of all of this, and further aware that most of the international legal community (even those in Western Europe) believe the settlements are in violation of international law. Even if they were not, they are seen as a major provocation, like when Sharon visited the Temple Mount, and the settlement activity is obviously more consequential than Sharon’s personal travels. Given that Israel knows all this, and yet still refuses to even halt settlement activity, it is hard for me to believe that they are not substantially compromising their security – especially that of the often newly-arrived settlers – in return for more internationally-recognized land and a better negotiating position.
Ted Belman
What is widely reported is lies and misinformation. This is what has informed public opinion just as it did in the thirties leading up to the holocaust. Listen to Amb Prosor’s speech at the UN.. Read The Jew of Nations: The Global Demonization of Israel . There are many more such articles. In short, the media is lying to its readers..Things are not going well. We withdrew from Gaza and uprooted 8,000 Jews from their homes that had been there for two generations. As a result we had to fight two wars with Hamas and endure over 10,000 rockets and over 100 casualties. So why would we withdraw from Judea and Samaria?
Bush and Obama say only that settlements are illegitimate, whatever that means, and an obstacle to peace. Yes they are an obstacle to the peace that Obama envisages. But we never agreed to that vision. They are trying to curry favour with the Arabs and don’t care about our rights or the law or the danger to Israel etc. Why should we listen to them?
Israel has no plans to build in A and B whatsoever so you have that totally wrong. Netanyahu has imposed a construction freeze even on C and in Jerusalem. The few housing approvals he has allowed that got so much attention are in Jerusalem and have yet to be built.
The Arab hatred of America is not due to her support of Israel. Remember America to them is the great Satan and Israel is the little Satan. They hate what America stands for.
As for your last paragraph, assume you bought your house and paid for it and the whole world wants to kick you out or not and to burn it down and cites that international law mandates it, would you fight them with all your strength. Of course you would and so does Israel.
I am going to post this exchange on Israpundit and my readers will comment on it. Your comments are also welcomed but first you also have to register.
I have taken the time with you because your heart is in the right place.
JUstin
Feel free to publish it; it’s always good to be able to access more dialog.
I skimmed over both the links you provided (they both have an errant parenthesis at the end) but I don’t see how they demonstrate an anti-Israel bias in the US media, The speech is made to the UN, which the US media consistently depicts as an inept dictators’ club in the few instances they do cover it. The only way I learn of the HRC’s activities is from reading lambasting editorials and television coverage pointing out the hypocrisy of its membership. The speech’s content is strictly an appe al to the UN leadership to recognize the moral superiority of Israel over the Palestinians, or at least their leadership. Again, that is taken for granted in the US media. Some pundits pointed out the media access granted to Israeli officials and the lack thereof to Hamas or the PA during the latest Israeli action in Gaza, but this is not an opinion – it’s a simple fact. Again, I would argue that it is appropriate to give much more weight to the Israeli officials than to violent fundamentalists and their “moderate” apologists in the West Bank, but I would not argue that there was a shred of evidence that any major US media outlet did not outrightedly favor Israel covering Protective Edge.
You seem to disparage the withdrawal from Gaza. I think it was a good move that the Israeli government completely squandered in its public opinion value. Most people in the US don’t even understand what it was or that it was a unilateral and publicly unconditional action. They also don’t know about the resettlement of the Israelis, and I don’t know the details. You have a point in that the media discussion of Gaza today often omits any recognition of the brave Israeli action. More importantly, to me, the US media uses the term “Hamas takeover” instead of “Hamas election” in almost every circumstance, giving false credence to the idea that the Gazans don’t support Hamas. Obviously, they do, and that is inconvenient for Palestinian apologists.
If you want to judge the withdrawal solely by the violence since the withdrawal, you must compare it to the violence prior to the withdrawal. Otherwise, it’s a false comparison. To my knowledge, the attacks on Israelis were much more frequent prior to the withdrawal, and thus on those grounds could be argued a success. But more importantly, what about the other criteria of success? What about long-term strategic goals? What about influencing Arab and world opinion? The Palestinians supported the withdrawal of course, but it must have changed at least a few hearts and minds. I do think that all people, even the Gazans, have both.
When you say that Bush and Obama favor a different vision of peace, I don’t know what that means. I know they do not favor dead Israelis if for no other reason than to avoid the wrath of the Israeli lobby and its impact on their electibility. You’ll have to be m ore explicit on this point, but I’m just saying that I don’t feel that Bush or even Obama want to harm the Israeli people.
When I referred to A and B, it was in the context of the planners and not the current policy. See http://www.haaretz.com/news/di… .
As to whether the Arabs hate America for its support of Israel or for its freedom, I would answ er “both.” I have watched many Salafist propaganda videos, including those by Anwar al-Alwaki, to see how they appeal to new recruits. The content of the political discussion is exclusively limited to US foreign policy, not the fact that we allow alcohol or have women in bikinis or don’t pray five times a day. On the other hand, I do think that jealousy is a factor, but it is economic jealousy. They have a perception that the US supports Arab tyrants to ensure access to energy resources, a perception that is more or less accurate. The Saudi government in particular is so contemptible that it is a humiliation that America continues to support it.
I would also mention that I don’t think Arabs hate Israelis and Americans for the same reasons. There is a religious aspect to th e hatred whose particular zeal only dates back a few hundred years, when reactionary Muslims were angry about colonialism. The Quarranic hatred of Jews is well-documented but Jews were treated poorly everywhere on Earth following the diaspora, not just in the Muslim states, and you can make a case that they were treated better in Muslim states at certain points in history.Moreover, I have noticed that Lebanese Christians and even the irreligious are very critical of Israel on the pretenses you ascribe to the European hard left. I would argue it is a cultural spillover and not a foreign import.
Finally, of course I would hate to be in Israel’s position. In fact I have often wondered why the Israelis don’t consider another plan, one in which an Israeli colony might be purchased somewhere far away from the Middle East as an insurance policy for a Jewish state. I guess that’s a big part of the problem – I can’t imagine myself in the shoes of, say, a settler, because I cannot imagine putting those shoes on.
In my view, the early Zionists picked just about the worst neighborhood on Earth to establish a tiny country with indefensible borders and no natural regional allies. I cannot imagine why someone would want to move to Israel today from, say, Europe or America, at such considerable risk and with the constant demonization you mention. Maybe you can help me understand this.
Ted Belman
To your last question, be advised that I moved here from Canada where I was born. I came because I love Israel and believe in her and the Jewish people’s right to self determination. I am participating in a glorious reconstitution of our ancient homeland. It is very exciting. Nowhere else will do. This is our home. It never was the home of the fake Palestinians who just came into existence 40 years ago. Jews have had a continuous presence in Israel for over 3000 years and their own kingdom there for 1000 years.
I have changed my opinion of you. I am not so sure your heart is in the right place,. You think Pollak is poisonous. I think he is a stalwart friend of Israel. You appear to hate right wingers of which I am one.
You came to the conclusion that it is dangerous for Israelis to cede any land then you go on to demand that we do. You understand that the Arabs want us dead yet you still want us to capitulate.
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@ Justin:
http://cifwatch.com/2014/12/18/exclusive-the-four-controversial-words-banned-at-irelands-holocaust-event/
more from the liars, defamers, delegitimizers
Justin:
dweller Said:
I add to Dwellers post to you that the arabs in YS had Jordanian citizenship which was withdrawn by Jordan when Jordan ceded the west bank. The Jordanian withdrawal of citizenship places NO LEGAL BURDEN on Israel to grant them citizenship or residency. The same refugees reside in arab lands without citizenship or permanent residency and reside in refugee camps. Ultimately these residents will go to Jordan where they belong, living in the 80% JEW FREE portion of the former Palestine mandate territory. Once the imported foreign british installed hashemite clan are deposed the majority pals of Jordan will open the gates of their massive land area to the former arab refugees from the Jewish portion of the mandate. Once the efficacy of the treaty with Jordan fails the real solution can commence.
@ Justin:
here is an alternative and factually accurate alternative site for those seeking the real story. Its just a beginning, there are many more, the MSM is bought and manipulate plus Reuters and AP
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2014/12/fisking-chris-gunness-latest-deceptions.html#.VJRM8F4AKA
Justin Said:
DUHH???? the money comes from the left and arabs that funds their increased profile. The jew killing goal is the same.
Justin Said:
originally you had no sentiment expressed,only lies and libels wrt jewish settlement and Israeli breaking of trusts. all of which were debunked here with facts.
As for “give and take”, you need to be more specific and use adult descriptions which can be addressed. Unless you are trying to be deliberately vague in order to rescue the last of your rubbish canards.
The US gives because it receives valuable returns for its alliance with Israel. There is no so called ally in the ME who has not refused overflight or landing when the US needed it other than Israel. The US knows that Israel is a reliable military ally who will follow through US military requests even when Israeli civilians are put in harms way like the scuds of the gulf war where the US asked Israel to stay out; or the faux peace talks where the US asked Israel to release prisoners so that Abbas would not be assassinated for entering talks that everyone knew would only kill time, all done so that the GCC could recruit sunni jihadis against Irans proxies rather than against Israel.
The US “aid” preserves US exclusive participation in Israeli military and technical advances and is also used to keep Israel down as a global military supply competitor. There is not one bit of charity in the US investment in Israel.
However, the US invests charitable aid globally for nothing in return except the assumed right of meddling in the internal affairs of other nations. The american culture assumes that when giving a gift, aid or charity there derives an entitlement to acquire a slave, serf, or servant. This is the only scenario where Israel might not “give” fully to the US: the role of slave, serf or servant. However, Israel has given more than most nations, endangering the lives of its citizens to placate US global political adventures.
What is your specific FACTUAL argument regarding your “give and take” narrative? I suspect that like all your other “arguments” there is both an absence of fact AND knowledge.
The US defense establishment have no doubt on the facts of their need to retain Israel as a real military ally but the uninformed and ignorant whose info is superficial and manipulated like the useful idiots on college campuses are without a clue.
Remember this relevant adage:
“it is better to appear a fool and be silent than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt”
Justin Said:
It results in dead Jewish children and therefore those spreading these lies are the de facto murderers of Jewish children. for that they should die… its only right.
Justin Said:
Ideology is not the prime issue. Ideology is the tool used to recruit the “useful idiots”. E.G. The GCC was able to get “ideological” muslims of varying sunni stripes to fight to the same goal on their behalf. qatar recruited the MB and Saudi recruited salafis and IS. All those different names and ideological muslim groups think they fight for their cause but instead fight for the goals of their puppet masters. They are expendable cannon fodder. the same is true with the facist nazi jew haters, the muslim jew haters,the leftist jew haters, the Jstreet jew haters…. they are tools funded and used to achive political and physical goals. E. G. Jstreet was created by Soros to be a jewish fig leaf to support Obama.
The obvious clue is that the fascist nazi jew haters and their traditional funding did not change but their resources and funding grew. These resources and funding cam e from the left and muslims. The saudis funded obama, universities, CAIR, the MB in USA. Arab money funds secular, christian and jewish BDS groups. Funding the nazis is an obvious slam dunk conclusion for the left and muslims. The far right does not have the cash but the left and muslims do. Cash calls the shots.
Justin Said:
not sure what point but I assume its about the unreliability of polls.
Justin Said:
Rabin is already dead, was assasinated. I can understand such a call for shot, tried and treason considering how many Jews died as a result of allowing the PLO into YS under Oslo. Those Jews who participated should be doing a mea culpa and finding ways to reverse the damage of their actions. Instead many are still advising the Jews to die by allowing the PLO and their terrorists to remain. As Oslo was breached all the thousands of PLO families allowed into Israel should be deported. they are a danger and that is my concern, not them or their families.Justin Said:
How is this relevant to the discussion at hand: illegitimacy,illegality, eu support of jew killers, libels, reneging on treaties with jews, double standards, etc? If someone wants kapo jews dead why should you care? Are you throwing in a red herring here?
Justin Said:
Why would you like that? Do the muslims dance in the streets to celebrate the slaughter of Jewish children in jest. Do Galloway and Gunness jest when their lies about Israel result in dead Jewish children? Do european leaders who lie,libel and break their own treaties with jews jest? Do those same euro leaders who insult us by taking jew killers off a terror list Jest; those same leaders who are de facto overtly declaring that they support the killers of Jewish children? Do I jest when I say it would be good if they were all dead and hopefully justice will be served when the muslims of europe grow and devour them like termites and are now taking their daughters into prostitution with muslim grooming gangs. Shirley, we do not jest !!!!! Those who swindle, libel, torture,and slaughter whether directly or indirectly should die….its the right thing 🙂 .
Happily right now we see the chaos and suffering engulfing the euro proxy jew killers in “arab spring”. Happily we see vlad making the euros shiver in their boots, happily we see the muslim termites eating out europe, happily civil war is on europes horizon, their own “muslim spring”. Those who gave the nazis the Jews of europe were made to suffer and those seeking the same now will burn in the fire of their own making.
If you fired one rocket at my child I would kill all your children whether your rocket was successful or not. If you threatened me verbally to nuke and wipe out my children I would nuke everyone one of your cities to be sure not to risk one child of mine. I prefer to risk your family’s lives, your children’s lives rather than mine. IN the history of Jews lies have killed, therefore those telling lies and libels now should die. When your friends who lie about jewish illegitimacy suffer death, chaos and loss of family, think of me and how happy it made me to know they suffered their just desserts. 🙂
@ Justin:
Since when has a majority been found correct about anything???
Justin Said:
I can only speak for myself. I was 100 ft from the assassination when it happened. My store was open that eve.
I first heard about it from the crowds fleeing the scene past my store. I was a very happy camper that night. My first thought was that the assassin was an Arab but no matter who, it was a great deed.
Changed the course of history which nobody denies. I even profited from the glorious deed as I sold out in hours my complete stock and for a month afterwards cleaned up so to speak on all the fools flocking to the site to pay tribute to a Jewish traitor.
I have I believe been vindicated by history as having been correct wrt to my past and still valid assessments and sentiments. 😛
Justin Said:
American giving is more akin to bribery.
Israel on balance gave to America much more than she received. I can back up my contention can you yours?
<
SHmuel HaLevi 2 Said:
Even Jordan will be a Temporary home for them as you well know the land known as Jordan belongs to us and will eventually be returned to the rightful owners.
This is the original Mandate:
“To your descendants I have given this land, from the Egyptian River (Nile) as far as the great river, the Euphrates.”
Bereshit (Genesis) 15:18
Map
Map
@ Justin:
Just a short note with your permission.
Justin,
About twenty minutes ago a rocket was fired from Gaza to our Eshkol district. The name for the city in that sector is Ashkelon.
Do you think that the rocket meant to send a peace note to us? I know, I know, peace negotiations is the answer.
I am curious. What would you do, if, lets say, Mexico would fire rockets against Dallas?
Happy times are here again… Up the collective you know what’s of the UN, EU and the administration.
The Arabs in Y & S have a state over the Jordan according the historic limits and the Mandate original.
That is where they will end up.
The Islamic beasts in Gaza, unwanted by Egypt or us, can certainly join them.
Ce tu.
@ Justin:
Justin Said:
No problem. There is one already.
It’s definitely Palestinian, since it’s in Mandate Palestine.
Comprises 78 percent of the original Mandate.
And it’s been a Palestinian Arab state for two years longer than the Jewish state.
Most of its inhabitants are of Palestinian Arab extraction. That’s largely true of its military, managerial & executive classes too.
It’s named for the river separating it from the Jewish state — where the remaining 22 percent of Mandate Palestine is situated.
Take a look at that Arab state’s flag sometime & compare it to the “Palestinian” flag.
@ honeybee:
At the risk of stating the obvious: you don’t need my ‘permission.’
@ bernard ross:
Well, I certainly understand how that could be the perception, and perhaps functionally it works that way. When Israel gets accused of “war crimes” it spills over from far left to far “right.”
But, ideologically, it’s totally different. The most extreme among the American left tend to view Israel as a sort of reincarnation of fascist, right-wing states (Nazi Germany and Apartheid South Africa for instance). They at least claim to be concerned with the welfare of the Palestinians under the banner of universal human rights.
On the other side you have the white power types who view Israel and Jews as masters of the world, elders of Zion, etc. They have no quibbles with Nazi Germany or South Africa, so long as Jews aren’t in charge. They were forced out of the main stream by the late 1960’s and haven’t had an inch of daylight since. They are still on the margins of American society, confined largely to midwestern trailer parks, but are making themselves more heard in venues like Breitbart, the Daily Caller, etc. They are also trying to ride the tails of a strain of the old right coming back into American politics.
I return to my original sentiment – that the US-Israel relationship ought to be a give-and-take. Evidently, though, you and others here feel that Israel has done the substantive giving, and the US the taking…
@ bernard ross:
Good point, I’ll concede that it matters, but I mean come on… someone on this thread was calling for Rabin and whoever else was involved in Oslo to be shot or tried for treason… you must concede that is not at all representative of a majority viewpoint in Israel… I would like to think that comment was made in jest…
yamit82 Said:
pretty as ever.
honeybee Said:
Ouch, at least I won’t have any scars. 🙂
@ yamit82:
surgeons will have a revolutionary tool in their hands for scar-free incision closure.
This will come in handly when I rip you a new one !!!!!!!!!!
honeybee Said:
I’ve been defanged 🙁
Say goodbye to surgical stitches and staples
If a new Israeli product from IonMed gets market approval,
surgeons will have a revolutionary tool in their hands for scar-free incision closure.
Justin Said:
this is your clue which points to: where is their obviously increased funding coming from? Round up the usual suspects! 😛
However, take note that the US congress which reflects the majority of americans is OVERWHELMINGLY in support of Israel and is daily issuing legislation to that effect to counter Obama admin hostility… Obama admin now has a lower approval rating than dubya
Justin Said:
likely they will continue heading here:
http://www.israel21c.org/?utm_source=Israel21c%20Weekly%20Newsletter&utm_campaign=c1576bf5d5-2014_12_17&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_a2ed5ed71b-c1576bf5d5-250435621
and here:
http://www.globes.co.il/en/news/
bernard ross Said:
bernard ross Said:
Hey that’s my line!!! 😛
yamit82 Said:
I want to hear this story
Justin Said:
Actually, what makes me wonder is your use of phrases, like that in bold above, which have a familiar ring that I have encountered on many blogs. The phrase is oft used to once more convey fear to the Jews; it is couched in “wondering” but it appears to be congruent with most of your arguments which are based on “everybody is against you; demographics, experts, arabs, storm front, etc… its time you Jews get scared and give up your rights and land because we have no better legal or moral argument to justify our swindling, libeling and torturing of your people. This same card of frightening the jews is, and will be, used to frighten Israelis into voting for the leftist foreign controlled stooges like livni and lapid. every dirty tactic is used by the foreign intelligence services and their controllers.
A better, more efficacious, more realistic, and more effective policy for Israel would be to develop a more effective delivery system of WMD which can reach both the obvious arab proxies but also those who fund them. The european/christian collective IMO is more dangerous than the arabs.
Justin Said:
right wing nazi type anti semitism has increased I believe through a left wing, muslim alliance which funds any potential anti semitism as a red herring. This will explain an increase beyond their base. the raising of the anti semitic card is a left wing muslim program in the US which is demonstrated by their funding of university and media platforms. My view is that current anti semitism is mainly a political vehicle employed by the radical left and muslims, the right wing orgs merely accept the funds which enable an increase in their reach. the money being poured into universities and student orgs is from the left wing and the muslims and NOT the right wing. The attempt to manipulate academia to become a thought police is both a ell known left wing stalinist vehicle AND a muslim vehicle… the left through their political and social orgs and the muslims through their clerical networks. Both engage in thought control, which is why they send out trolls to populate conservative and jewish sites also. The BDS churches are funded by both left wing and muslim orgs…I do not believe they receive funding from the strom front. This sort of attack is indicative of the leftist/muslim block and not the right wing.
If obama puppet masters dont get their way they will likely employ the anti semitic card… while funding the Soros created Jstreet to be their fig leaf.
Are you familiar with the term “useful idiots” which I believe was created by Lenin?
@ bernard ross:
Iran sans the Mullahs in power is a natural ally for Israel.
Most Iranians are not religious, most I believe want to be secular, they are not Arabs or Semites but Aryans. They are as opposed to Arabs smart and Industrious comparatively.
Israel had very good relations with the Shaw and even offered to supply him with our Nuke technology if not a few off the shelf Nukes. The Arabs will never ever be a friend or ally to Israel Never.
When I have in the past spoken of regime change I never meant the current contenders who make up the Shia internal opposition, they are not much different than the current bunch and many were deposed by them. I mean a change where the Mullahs are ousted from power and influence completely.
dweller Said:
At the risk of being bite by a Zev !!!!! I like this reply. I shall use it, with your permission.
Justin Said:
Are you referring to my statement that Israel has been engaging in some covert cooperation with the gulf monarchies sunni bloc? My statement of a perceived fact does not necessarily agree with what I prefer, horses of different colors in logic. the answer is NO, however, in the same way that the west united with stalin there may be short term pragmatic advantages to Israel: the weakening of Iran and proxies as hamas, hexbullah, Assad, Iran present the greater threat. I believe that the GCC reigned in hamas from Iran, organized Egypt to keep them reigned, organized the POD cease fire, organized the arab world blaming of hamas rather than Israel for the gaza war, spread hezbulah forces thin over three conflict state theaters, weakened Assads claim to the Golan, weakened Assad overall militarily. IN the event of any attack on Iran by the west or by Israel blowback is reduced from Hezbullah, hamas and Assad.
My preference is that in the short term all the enemies and blood libelers of Israel and the Jews are immersed in chaos, suffering and war and I include europe in that designation. The best situation wrt enemies in war is their continuing chaos; resolution strengthens one side after a time…therefore an ongoing arab and euro spring are desirable in current real terms. the likelihood of any long term alliances are very small. Although there are past alliances with Iran those, and future, relationships depend upon the leadership as their masses and cannon fodder are manipulated into any agenda by the employment of the fatwa and islamic clerical network by the leadership. E.G. we currently have sunnis amassed in Syria fighting the shias instead of their prime enemy the Jews due to how they are manipulated. The situation can change at any time depending on the rivalry between the western/GCC block and the Russian/Iran block. For the moment the arab spring wars are optimum keeping many enemies occupied. Let us hope that it spreads to europe, where signs of civil strife are already emerging. Resolution, or one side winning, is not the only desirable outcome. In fact, I believe that the desired goal of the western/GCC alliance and the russian Iran alliance is a political solution. I have even read the same from the GCC. Each sidee has interests which do not necessarily require toppling of govs or complete surrender. At the moment the so called Iran US alliance against Isis is confined primarily to defining the borders and limits of IS advances as opposed to the actual toppling of IS. there is no doubt that the western/GCC proxies will have improved their position from before the sunni shia war even in a negotiated solution. this does not mean that at the same time Iran and Russia will not have improved THEIR leverage in the areas remaining to their proxies(syria and shia iraq). Lebanon is in play also.
@ yamit82:
yamit82 Said:
yamit82 Said:
Don’t bite ZEV !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@ bernard ross:
Every opinion poll narrows responses to essentially for or against but never offers 2ss as one of several options and choices for the respondents. Basically it’s a yes or no.
How many respondents would say yes if they detailed the cost to Israel in the establishment of 2SS.
Such as:
Loss of Most of Jerusalem.
Relocating over 100K Jews out of Y&S and Jerusalem.
Cost 100-200 $ billion dollars
High inflation like mega inflation.
Evacuation of Y&S will end Israels economic advances and bring us back 20years or more.
It will force us to become even more dependent on America EU and others for our economic survival.
Our credit ratings will plummet and our Interest payments will skyrocket.
Tens of thousands of young Israelis will emigrate
Investments will dry up
In the end all of Israel will be under the Palis guns rockets and missiles, drones you name it because they will not be demilitarized.
We will have created a Proxy enemy on our eastern border where none existed before.
Pose a similar question not as an abstract but with details and most Jews I’m confident will leave skid marks.
@ Justin:
further to your poll,
Have you looked into the politics of those conducting the poll, that is ALWAYS the most relevant factor in any poll? check it out and let me know what you find? 🙂
Justin Said:
basically you just said it yourself except I do not agree with your “cyclical” for 2 states… it is how questions are presented, the timing of the poll wrt elections are always suspect, and WHO conducts the poll. Israelis want a secure and peaceful situation and they are seeing that the TSS touted to them is likely to fail due to the nature of the enemy. It is odd that you choose a poll from dec 2013 before the summmer gaza war, couldnt you find a later poll on the TSS since the gaza war? at least you are starting to read media closer to location and reality, but I wonder if your choice of poll had a purpose? Say it isnt so Justin 😛
from your article:
and more
2014..you show me your poll and I show you mine…. hence the bandying of phrases such as those you use tend to lose their credibility when the light is shone upon them.
@ Justin:
You amuse and entertain me with your lack of profundity and erudition. Pls. Continue . .. 😛
@ Justin:
Has any commander ever defeated his own forces in a battle before engagement…
I can only think of three.
You
Obama.
And Colonel Sanders.
@ Justin:
We need a liberal voice on this blog, so why don’t you cast aside the Tourette Syndrome and make your case that Obama is more intelligent than Palin.
Impossible to get across to you, is it?
We kindly request that you cease and desist from inserting directly or indirectly your administration and Jewish as well as unJewish or Gentile or others admonitions, “grants”, blackmail, opinions, etc.
We do not have time or interest on discussing our rights about the whole of Eretz Israel. And NO ONE has any say regarding that either.
The Roman, Greek, Ottoman, British and other invading powers or their inheritors decisions are utterly rejected.
The Land of Israel is precisely as delineated in ancient documents, among others The Bible and not a grain of sand will be changed. The fabricated so called “pilistineans” can start packing or that will be facilitated for them.
There never was a “pilistine”. The fact that the Romans changed our Lands denomination is of no consequence.
Should you want to waste our time please name five elected leaders of that so called people prior to Arafat.
What was the purported people’s minted currency.
Monuments?
Law system?
Justin… Do yourself a favor and give it up.
Justin Said:
Meaning?
@ bernard ross:
Well, I got referred to this site via Ted’s replies to my comments on Breitbart. There has been a NOTICEABLE increase in outright anti-Semitism on Breitbart in the past 6 months, in the style of Storm Front. My impression is that they are trying to bring anti-Semitism back into the American conservative main stream. Their focus is not on Israeli policy vis a vis the Arabs in Israel. It is on alleged “Jewish control” of the “Zionist Occupied” US Congress. Their presence on the Internet far outsizes their actual base of support in the US, but there have been some trends in US politics (John Birch at CPAC 2012 for instance) that make me wonder about where things are heading.
I can point you to specific threads if you would like but I think even Ted will back me up in this instance.
yamit82 Said:
Is this a joke???
@ bernard ross:
Are you saying that the Sunni bloc is preferable to the Iranian bloc for Israel? Putin and Russia hold some sway over the Iranians, as do the Chinese, who are warming up to Israel…
bernard ross Said:
http://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-most-israelis-palestinians-support-2-state-solution/
There are opposing polls, to be sure, but I think there is a sort of cyclical majority whose support ebbs and flows with what the terrorists are doing.
@ yamit82:
Saudi Arabia to Hamas: Stay Away from Iran
Saudi Arabia reportedly demands that Hamas stop its rapprochement with Iran in exchange for help in lifting the “siege” on Gaza.
under ousted president Mohammed Morsi, who preferred an alliance with Iran over Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states, and it was one of the key factors that helped the Egyptian military oust Morsi.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/188711#.VJDgIivF-So
Isnt that what I have been saying? We saw it when qatar brokered the POD cease fire to wean hamas from Iran
yamit82 Said:
not for him, for the following:
yamit82 Said:
putting nails in the coffin
dont even want any rigor mortis
kicking them when their down
(harsh no problem) 😛
@ bernard ross:
If you look you will see I quit the farce a while back. 😛