By Ted Belman
Israel owes its existence, not to Britain nor the US, but to Stalin.
Alex Markovsky wrote in For Israel, Failures Never Learned and Lessons for Today
“In 1947, Arab countries rejected a UN plan to partition the British mandate in Palestine into two states. Armed with British weaponry and guided by British officers, Arabs were convinced they could claim the entire territory by military triumph. If not for comrade Stalin, who supplied the Jews with weapons via Czechoslovakia and dispatched hundreds of seasoned Soviet officers and generals of Jewish heritage to Palestine, all of whom played a pivotal role in the formation, organization, and leadership of the Israeli army, including the air force, Israel would not exist.”
This support was short-lived but enough to get Israel through the War for Independence.
Neither the British Foreign Office nor the US State Department expected Israel to be victorious. Britain for its part, prevented Jewish immigration after WWII and did its utmost to confiscate all guns in the possession of the Irgun and other resistance groups and turned over all such weapons and her police stations to the Arabs when she departed. The US did its part by placing an arms embargo on Israel which was instituted before the war and lasted til the ‘67 War. Both expected Israel to lose and saw their interests as aligning with the Arabs and their oil.
In The 100 Year Betrayal of Israel by the West, I listed most of the betrayals, by Britain and the US, of which there were many, but did not go into their motivations.
The primary reason Britain published the Balfour Declaration was to influence American Jews to get the US to enter the war and Soviet Jews to keep Russia in the war.
After the end of WWI, Britain recalibrated her interests and came down decidedly on the sides of the Arabs as the above article attests.
Britain created the Mandate system in order to maintain her influence in the Middle East without being considered as a colonizer which was going out of style. In her role as Trustee under the Mandate she violated her duty to the Jews, the beneficiary, in every way possible. It is for this reason that Jewish resistance did its utmost after WWII to end the Mandate.
In The West should make amends to the Jewish people for this historical injustice. I highlighted how Britain put pre-state Israel at a disadvantage by actively preventing Jewish immigration.
This article highlights the fact that after WWII, Britain embraced ethnic homogenization in redrawing Europe’s borders and partitioning India as the path to peace. Der Spiegel reported;
“The centre-piece of this programme was an attempt to achieve the ethnic homogenization of the state, to ensure as close a match as possible between its ethnic and political borders.”
But she did the opposite in Palestine.
“But there was no attempt to move Muslims. Just the opposite. The United Nations created UNRWA to preserve the status of the “refugees” as it newly defined them. The rest as they say is history.”
Even the UNGA Res 181, passed in 1947, called the Partition Plan, was in violation of the Mandate which designated all the land for the Jewish homeland.
Though Britain ended the Mandate by leaving, she was hoping to return. Geoffrey Clarfield, explained, in a CIJR webinar, about the British Plan to Conquer the Jewish State in the 1950’s.
“Britain had led and financed the Arab Legion, which was managed by active British officers, in 1948 which allowed Jordan to conquer East Jerusalem and occupy Judea and Samaria. Britain begrudgingly recognized the state of Israel, exchanged ambassadors but was clearly on the side of the Arab League.”
“Thereafter Britain developed a secret military plan JOI 27 under the pretext of acting on its defence pact with Jordan to attack the Israel air force by air, wipe it out and send in ground-troops to consolidate the destruction of the seven year old or eight year old Jewish state.”
In The Failed British Double-Cross of Israel, Edward N. Luttwak expanded on this.
“…the British … were determined to remain in Palestine, contrary to their representations to the Jewish leaders and the U.N. In fact, they had worked out an operational plan to do exactly that: would plead for British protection, thereby ensuring the prolongation of British rule.
“Two bundles of heretofore overlooked documents prove that Avraham Stern was right in not trusting British declarations that they would end the Mandate and allow the Jews to establish a state, even within the shrunken borders envisioned by the U.N.
“First, there are the “Operation Cordage” documents, which envisaged a terrorist attack on Israel that would provoke Israeli retaliation against the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. The Israeli response would allow Britain to activate its commitment to defend the Hashemite Kingdom under the 1946 Treaty of London. This would provide the excuse for the British to launch all-out air attacks by the Royal Air Force from its Cyprus base and by the Fleet Air Arm from carriers, in order to destroy all Israeli air force and army bases, headquarters, and depots. “
“The other set of documents describes the U.S.-U.K. Plan Alpha worked out in 1955 by Francis Russell of the U.S. State Department and the leading Arabist of the British Foreign Office, Evelyn Shuckburgh (who would suffer acute stomach pains whenever forced to concede a very rare audience to Israel’s ambassador). Presented by Prime Minister Anthony Eden in his November 1955 Guildhall speech, Alpha would detach the Negev—yes always the Negev—from Israel to give it to Egypt—which was still then, if not for long, “British Egypt,” complete with army and air force Canal-side bases, garrisoned by 70,000 British troops.
This document is dated Aug 2, 1955. The full documents are available on TABLET.
On July 26, 1956 Nasser nationalized the Suez Canal and that changed everything.
Clarfield writes:
“Britain strengthened its diplomatic and military promises to Jordan, all on the assumption that it would help them in their secret plan to reconquer Israel.
“As one of the reports put it:
“The Committee agreed that …it was important to keep Jordan cooperative at least until the situation in the Middle East subsequent to the Suez canal problem being solved, was clear.
“Simply understood this meant keep the alliance with Jordan strong, promise them the moon, invade Egypt, bring Nasser to his knees and then destroy the Jewish state by waiting for them to respond to the periodic cross border terrorist attacks from Jordanian territory that had been going on and off since 1948.”
“Almost at the same time that these plans were being developed the British Cabinet and the British High Command were also cooking up their plan to invade Egypt, destroy Nasser and reassert their power over the Suez Canal as Nasser had nationalized it. This plan never changed its name and was called Operation Musketeer.
“Whether they named it that because they wanted to go in with the French, the plan finally included the Israelis at the request of the French as the Israelis were receiving or about to receive Mystere Jets from France, as the Americans and the British refused to sell Israeli fighter jets.
“Throughout the planning and implementation stages of Musketeer a never changing priority was British bombing of Egyptian airfields in the Suez canal. This was so central to their battle strategy that they believed British and French ground troops would only intervene when the Egyptians totally lost their air power.
“The British very much insisted that the French do not sell Israel jets at this time. Musketeer in the early days never allowed for the remote possibility of Israeli participation but the French soon changed that.
“What the British feared was an Israeli attack on Jordan when France and Britain were to be tied up in Suez. The British high command spun many scenarios about what these Israelis might or might not do and what would be the appropriate British response.
“Eden would only go in with three Musketeers if he was promised that the British imagined Israeli invasion of Jordan would not happen and, the Israelis had to promise the British and French that this would not happen.”
Ben Gurion promised and the invasion of Egypt by Britain, France and Israel, began on Oct 29. 1956 and the invasion of Israel was shelved.
All for naught as Eisenhower sent them packing.
In 1964, the Palestine Liberation Organization was formed to liberate Palestine through armed struggle. But it took years for the notion of a Palestinian people to crystalize. In 1967, they were not recognized as such, nor were they considered a party to the conflict. Security Council Resolution 242 passed after the ’67 war, made no mention of them.
Since when did the Palestinians become entitled to a state? traces the role of all US administrations in creating a Palestinian state for a non-existing people. In 1982, the US went so far as to save Arafat and his 40,000 terrorists from certain destruction in Beirut and ferry then to Tunisia for safe keeping. Pres Clinton made certain that Arafat and his gang of terrorists were accepted into Israel as part of the Oslo Accords. The Oslo Accords have been trouble for Israel ever since.
You might ask yourself, why in the world would the US do that? Why indeed.
Starting with the Rogers Plan of 1969, the US has been at the forefront of creating a Palestinians state and no amount of Black Septembers, plane high jackings, Munich Massacres and terrorizing Lebanon and Israel from Southern Lebanon detered them. Then after Oslo, no amount of intifadas and bus bombings could likewise deter the them.
How do you explain that?
Similarly, the US is ignoring the support extended to Hamas by the PA. The PA and Iran, it seems can do no wrong.
Fast forward to today. Is the US for Israel or agin it?
Apparently, the US is still working to ensure the creation of a Palestinian state.
Blinken recently advised the Senate
“At some point, what would make the most sense would be for an effective and revitalized Palestinian Authority to have governance and ultimately security responsibility for Gaza,”
To date, the Biden administration has supported Israel’s right of self-defense providing it is exercised in compliance with International law.
At the same time it has insisted that Israel:
- Allow humanitarian assistance to enter Israel from Egypt, currently in excess of 100 trucks per day,
- Restore the internet to Gaza.
- Restore the flow of water into Gaza.
- Refrain from arming its own citizens
- Allow for a pause in the fighting which Israel has so far rejected.
With every demand the Biden administration imposes on Israel, it makes it more difficult to achieve victory and ensures more Israeli lives will be lost in doing so.
The reason Israel is so compliant is because she is dependent on US resupply of munitions and the US is controlling the resupply to make certain that Israel remains dependant on her.
The only reason the US is letting Israel crush Hamas is because she wants to instal the PA as ruler in Gaza and thereby usher in the two-state solution.
On October 20th , Caroline Glick wrote:
“In nearly every statement and speech U.S. President Joe Biden gave during his brief sojourn in Tel Aviv, he insisted that Hamas does not represent the Palestinians and that the Palestinian Authority is their true representative. The P.A., the president insisted, does not share Hamas’s goal of eradicating the Jewish state and the Jewish people. Biden foresees a future where the P.A. is in charge of the Gaza Strip, and Israel agrees to a Palestinian state in Gaza, as well as in Judea and Samaria.”
This will never happen. Israel is not shedding its blood in order to install the PA in Gaza.
Martin Sherman put it best in Gaza: The tragically belated death of a “conception”
“Clearly, the only way Israel can ensure who governs Gaza is to govern it itself. Moreover, the only way Israel can govern Gaza without imposing its rule on “another people”, is to remove that “other people” from the confines of Gaza, over which it is obligated to rule. Up until October 7th, it was possible to conceive of this being conducted in a non-coercive manner by economically induced emigration. Lamentably, that possibility has been overtaken by events. Now, such an exodus must be implemented coercively and rapidly.”
And he is not alone in thinking so. Jewish communities around the world call for Jews to settle Gaza and Amb. Friedman: No to 2-states; Yes to Israeli Sovereignty in Judea, Samaria and Gaza and Make Gaza Israel again and Jonathan Pollard: The need for annexation
@Edgar G.
Oct 7h massacre was inspired by the same genocidal ideology as Nazis.
Kill Jews everywhere you can find them.
The only difference was that the Parasitenians did not have as much power as the German Nazis.
If they did, they’d happily murder all Jews, and they’d do it with much more sadism.
@Sebastien Zorn
Are you saying that Czechs provided the weapons without explicit direction from Stalin?
That’s very different from everything I have heard so far.
But I have only read secondary sources, so I don’t really know what happened.
I still think it is possible to make an alliance with Russia.
Get form Russia recognition of the entire San Remo Mandate.
In exchange recognize all of Russia’s claim to “Ukraine”.
Make military alliance with Russia
Offer scientific and technological cooperation.
Between Russia, Israel and India.
These three countries can produce military hardware that can compete with the American weapon on quality and beat it 3 to 4 times on price.
In addition to cooperation, get some chief Rabbi of Jerusame, or some other pots to declare Putin the Messiah. (And he’ll surely deserve that title after liberating Israel, and particularly the Temple Mount, from the Arab occupation.
Putin would love to be the Messiah.
Or maybe by that time Trump will be elected and both Putin and Trump can be declared Messiahs. 2 Messiahs is even better than 1.
They can be co-Messiahs.
FELIX-
You are right, and you can add Von Braun and a host of Nazi scientists to to a long list.
As long as there are Jews, and Western Civilisation, there will be Jew Haters.
Also look at what was written in Psalm 22 Verses 14 and 17.
And in Bamidbar, Bsalam says , regarded as a prophesy, in Bamidbar 22.9 “A nation that must live alone”. which is exactly what The Rebbe said to Rabin on a memorable occasion.
READER-
One could hardly call the Nazis”intolerant of the Jews”, but, let it pass.
Yes Hamas says it will make more Oct 7ths, but these are just words and bluster. If and when they are stamped out GOOOD in Daza, never to return, any subsequent attempt will be feeble besides this major one now progressing with Hamas being HUNTED Down. Their next outbreak will be from abroad, with a very long line of logistical vulnerability. There will always be isolated on innocent and mostly defenceless Jews around the world.
This was only a Major Event because it was in Israel, where Jews are in total ascendancy, and was a surprise attack. Israeli intelligence was majorly at fault, and did not appraise the PM of any dangerous outbreak.
Typical. Hamas played them for suckers..
Such attacks carefully planned always have initial success but, as you see, they peter out once the “caught sleeping” lion is awakened
“The history books say that the 1948 Israeli war for independence was fought with American guns and homemade weapons from underground factories in Palestine. It was a victory of brave Jews against much better equipped Arabs. Our sources in the intelligence community say there is a bit of truth in that, but not much.
In the first place, most of the guns came from the Czech Communists, not the Americans. The arms deals were negotiated behind the FBI’s back by a rogue member of the British secret service. When Stalin discovered the Czech arms deal, he was furious and launched his own operation to take over Czechoslovakia and destroy Israel.
[…]” Chapter 9
Excerpt from: “The Secret War Against the Jews: How Western Espionage Betrayed The Jewish People” by John Loftus. Scribd.
This material may be protected by copyright.
Read this book on Everand: https://www.scribd.com/book/363123502
@Edgar G.
Hamas swore that it is going to repeat October 7 again, and again, and the “world community” didn’t blink.
What does “from the river to the sea Palestine will be free” mean?
Check out their organizations platforms and the “Palestinian education”, etc, etc..
There was a long way from German intolerance of Jews to the Holocaust.
Edgar
Add to that that
*Except that the America and British entity recruited the Nazis like Gehlen to lead into the present situation we are facing
So Antisemitism as Jews being made the scapegoat for the crisis of class society is continuing
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard_Gehlen
No other explanation satisfies
The “pogrom of Oct 7th” is NOT a continuation of THE Holocaust in any way except that in both instances, Jews were slaughtered without mercy. But the October slaughter was on a very minute scale by comparison with any other of MANY…..
Also THE Holocaust was a calculated systematic extermination of a whole race, whereas the October 7th murders were the result of a sudden foray of terrorists, most or all of whom have now been hunted down and killed.
It is a completely different happening from the Holocaust of Nazi Germany. And there was a large variety of Pogroms, each vastly greater than October 7th for hundreds of years -before Nazi Germany ever existed.
But….perhaps, maybein an esoteric way by Sebastien only.
@felixQuigley
I think you are right.
Many people are hoping that the Arabs will finish what the Germans didn’t complete.
Reader
I certainly do want the Israeli operation to be ultra successful
I also think that real victory by Israel is a blow against Antisemitism in Europe despite
their big marches on Saturday.
Not sure why he thinks he has to gin up support among us.
My main line personally has been that Hamas/Fatah just continuing the Holocaust
@Sebastien Zorn
You are changing the topic.
The article pointed out that the US and the UK cannot be trusted.
You mentioned Armenians, I responded – what does it have to do with the principle of morale in war?
Everyone here supports Israel’s operation in Gaza
Principles of war – Wikipedia
@Reader & Co. Mazeltov. I hope you’ll be very happy. Now, back to building enthusiastic support for Israel’s war effort without distractions, if you please.
I think the debate here is not about the Armenian Genocide but about whether the aims always justify the means (which principle the US and UK policies (foreign and domestic) have always been based on – despite a few noble sounding speeches by their politicians – and this is why the US and UK cannot be trusted).
It looks like Felix and I are the only ones who answer “No” to this question.
BTW, this whole thing started when Sebastien posted that his Armenian acquaintances always try to direct his attention to THEIR genocide by the Turks and I tried to mention some facts about it.
Some reading for those who might still be interested in the topic:
https://net.lib.byu.edu/~rdh7/wwi/comment/morgenthau/MorgenTC.htm
Stefan Ihrig Justifying Genocide Germany and the Armenians
from Bismarck to Hitler
Vahakn N. Dadrian The History of the Armenian Genocide: Ethnic Conflict from the Balkans to Anatolia to the Caucasus
Which brings to the heart of the issue
You and Seb take a position of not taking a position.
That is not possible.
@Felix
Sebastien hasn’t been rubbishing what you wrote. He hasn’t denied the history of the Armenian slaughter. He just doesn’t agree with you that Israel should commit the international faux pas of needlessly becoming part of a debate between Turkey and Armenia which does not in any way involve or relate to Israel or the Jewish people. There is no moral requirement to make such silly gestures, and suggesting that Israel has any requirement to do so is obtuse. Like Sebastien, I too am not rubbishing (I like that word) what you wrote, but only stating that you are wrong to conclude that Israel has any need to involve herself in matters which do not involve herself to her own detriment, something which you will recall I wrote earlier in the thread below.
Thanks Peloni but I had read each comment and at the same time it is a complex enough thread including the initial article. I agree with Reader the Armenian massacre by the Turks is very serious and I cannot believe that Jews do not oppose it, then since and always.
And now YOU read what I wrote on Ukraine and tell me why Seb has been rubbishing what I wrote. And over the years I have written a lot.
@Felix
You seem to have missed the beginning of the conversation. If you read the full thread and the articles cited, you will find that Reader shared an article which indicated exactly this point to which I responded to Reader, to which Reader defended his position, to which Sebastien is referencing and to which you are apparently unaware. Reading this out loud in my head just now, this seems quite a silly thing to have to write, but there it is. I would suggest you go back and read the earlier comments to understand the debate which you are trying to extend without the full context of what has been stated.
Ted
Well the site is being used by Seb to destroy history under cover of being “loyal”
You must be aware of this being silencing of history by Seb
Notwithstanding what you say about historical articles you publish what position do you hold on this which is based on a big lie…that I am saying that Israel owes Russia a moral debt. I did not say that. It is a lie. As here by Seb
“Felix Undermining Israel’s leaders in time of war undermines Israel’s war effort. Mindlessly blathering on about the poor, poor Armenians or Russia and claiming Jews or Israel owe them anything, as is your wont, (or Kurds, as others have done) drags everything off target. Israel has no moral debts. Period. It is you who are becoming a liability to the Jewish people. You are engaged in psychological projection. Cut it out.”
But I do say that the Pogrom of October 7 is a continuation of the Holocaust and we have to be absolutely clear on every aspect of that history.
I think that is very important. I can think of nothing which is more important.
The historical denial is coming from Seb openly on your site.
Who said Israel is owing a debt. I never said that. And Reader said something very different.
And when I say to understand October 7 you have to study the Holocaust in Ukraine whereupon I am told really all kinds of harmful charges at which point Israpundit becomes a Forum for lies.
I don’t tell people to do anything I just state what is
@Felix
As me fader of sainted memory used to say.
@Felix
How can you say that. My whole article is about history. In what way am I denying history. Give me a quote.
You must be referring to something someone else said. Are you calling for me to censure people who comment.
Yes sir yes sir three bags full sir
Quote
“Undermining Israel’s leaders in time of war undermines Israel’s war effort. Mindlessly blathering on about the poor, poor Armenians or Russia and claiming Jews or Israel owe them anything, as is your wont, (or Kurds, as others have done) drags everything off target. Israel has no moral debts. Period. It is you who are becoming a liability to the Jewish people. You are engaged in psychological projection. Cut it out.”
We are all on this site bar none working every minute for Israel to win the war. So every word of the above is totally out of order
I never said Jews and Israel owe anything to anybody…they do though owe it to themselves to tell the truth about history
Especially about what happened in the years of Pogrom in 1918 to 1921. Particularly in Ukraine.
And especially in the years of the Holocaust again in Ukraine
It is especially relevant that Jews suffered so much in
Ukraine
Byelorussia
Latvia
Lithuania
And failure to cover this history by Israel led to the Hamas Pogrom on October 7 because in every way the Ukrainian Pogroms are the direct precursors.
If only the youth of the Festival had been aware of that history then they may have come armed etc etc.
This is also where so much revision (lies).about history has happened and is happening.
E.G.
Anne Applebaum
Timothy Snyder
So revision of the Holocaust is the most serious issue possible and the whole of world Antisemitism in this war is resting on the above revision undergoing now for decades
It is just at that point that the grandfatherly Seb comes along tut tutting oh don’t go there as it is undermining the war against Hamas.
But the struggle against Applebaum and Snyder enriches the Jews in this very serious present struggle because Holocaust Denial lies at their centre and also at the centre of the present plan (BBC et al) in whitewashing Hamas to prevent Israel from real victory
And real victory is what everyone on Israpundit is for.
What Seb is trying to do is really diabolical
When I said that Seb should stop his slobbering I was not nearly accurate. It is far worse than foolish.
Seb
That Ted has led a site that is now denying history is a very serious matter and that nearly all are silent is the most serious thing imaginable. What a blow.
“We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow.”
Lord Palmerston
@Felix Undermining Israel’s leaders in time of war undermines Israel’s war effort. Mindlessly blathering on about the poor, poor Armenians or Russia and claiming Jews or Israel owe them anything, as is your wont, (or Kurds, as others have done) drags everything off target. Israel has no moral debts. Period. It is you who are becoming a liability to the Jewish people. You are engaged in psychological projection. Cut it out.
@Felix
So what? Is this a college debating society? Don’t talk like a naive idiot. This is hardly the most significant moral compromise that has been necessary and it affects nothing but Armenians’ egos not their survival. Ben Gurion had to close the door on hunting Nazi War Crimnals in South America to get these countries’ votes for recognition in 1948.
Israel had to recognize Morroco’s claim to the Sahara over that of the native people to get them on board the Abraham Accords.
It’s like that for every country. Stop singling Israel out for blame like the U.N. that disregards international law and mostly just passes resolutions against Israel.
Do you ever hear the Armenians or anybody else apologizing for anything? Margaret Thatcher threatened to nuke Argentina over the Falklands with no political fallout.
Armenia conquered internationally recognized Azeri territory and drove out a million Azeris in the war before last. Today’s Armenia is the bad guy.
Defaming Israel helps Hamas. Speaking of betrayal in time of war. This is an old and divisive issue. Reviving it at this moment is disgusting!You should be ashamed of yourselves.
And don’t whine about the harshness of my tone. If you are going to dish it out, you better get used to it. Slobberingly, or whatever, you delusional fool. What goes around, comes around. Gloves off.
The Armenian genocide. It’s an historical fact. Sebastien stop slobbering. You are becoming a liability to the Jewish people.
And don’t accuse people here of Holocaust denial. Is unreal and what is unreal, at this time, is dangerous.
Your posts are dragging everything off target
Which is the betrayal coming of Israeli leaders on Gaza etc.
@ Reader 15,000 out of a population of 88 million. 100 years ago, there were 80,000 Jews im Turkey. But that might also be another excellent reason. There’s usually multiple reasons for policy decisions. And realpolitik matters.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/jews-not-allowed-as-erdogan-praises-hamas-antisemitism-rages-in-turkey/
In contrast, the Flame Towards in Baku have lit up in the colors of the Israeli flag, the Israeli Embassy in Baku has been flooded with flowers, candles, teddy bears and other gifts given by Azerbaijanis to the Israeli people in their hour of need, and the Working Group for Azerbaijan-Israel Interparliamentary Relations issued a statement saying: “We condemn unequivocally and in the strongest terms the wide-scale attacks against Israel from the Gaza Strip, accompanied by indiscriminate rocket strikes targeting civilian infrastructure objects, population centers, and civilians.” They added: “We stand firmly with Israel in these hard times.”
And Armenia has not condemned Hamas. Unlike Azerbaijan.
https://www.israelhayom.com/opinions/how-have-the-armenians-responded-to-the-war-in-israel/
“Israel’s refusal thus far to formally recognize the Armenian slaughter as genocide is based on geopolitical and strategic considerations, primary among them its relations with Turkey. The United States has similarly avoided recognition of the mass killings over fears of angering Turkey.”
https://www.timesofisrael.com/turkey-says-israel-will-harm-itself-if-it-recognizes-armenian-genocide/
Is it possible that Israel doesn’t recognize Armenian Genocide not so much because of the relations with Turkey but because there are still Jews living in Turkey who have to subscribe to their government’s policy of non-recognition?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Turkey
Reader is making good points and also he is lucid and I understand him about the Armenian genocide, also is the genocide of the Serbs with the Jews and Gypsies in Jasenovac and other camps..
We have to educate the youth. Who else will.
Reader says
Seb…why does Reader feel it necessary to say that. What is happening?
And why separate out the Serb from the Jewish suffering?
I would think unifying would strengthen us
Sebastien? Where did I denigrate Israel?
@Sebastien Zorn
Of course, minimizing the Holocaust is wrong and antisemitic, however, to claim that Israel and the Jews are entitled to minimize other genocides because of the Holocaust is wrong also, especially in the case of Armenian Genocide.
I fail to see how acknowledging other genocides minimizes the Holocaust.
I think Jews should be in the forefront of fighting against genocide precisely because of the Holocaust.
Of course, there is Realpolitik, etc. but ends don’t justify the means, at least not always.
@Reader, Felix, Honeybee And to bring this stuff up, NOW? And in the context of an article about Israel’s predicament with regard to it’s supposed friends? Changing the subject in exactly that way when Israeli Jews are fighting for their very lives? Pretty outrageous, guys. And objectively antisemitic. Trying to make Israel into the bad guy for minor, irrelevant issues as Israel is being demonized and Jews are being attacked around the world? Talk about demagoguery!
last comment went into moderation probably because of all the links to news of antisemitic incidents.
@Reader, Felix, Honeybee And to bring this stuff up, NOW? And in the context of an article about Israel’s predicament with regard to it’s supposed friends? Changing the subject in exactly that way when Israeli Jews are fighting for their very lives? Pretty outrageous, guys. And objectively antisemitic. Trying to make Israel into the bad guy for minor, irrelevant issues as Israel is being demonized and Jews are being attacked around the world? Talk about demagoguery!
https://www.jta.org/2023/11/09/united-states/an-la-charter-school-housed-at-a-synagogue-taught-1st-graders-about-the-genocide-of-palestine
https://www.jta.org/2023/11/09/united-states/brawls-erupt-outside-la-museum-of-tolerance-screening-of-hamas-atrocities-footage
https://www.jta.org/2023/11/09/ny/nypd-reports-69-antisemitic-hate-crimes-in-october-marking-a-surge-since-start-of-war
https://apnews.com/article/detroit-synagogue-president-slain-7098a2c942856373f7106ca0d88c0e9d
https://ktla.com/news/local-news/elderly-jewish-man-dies-after-incident-at-pro-palestinian-rally/
https://www.jta.org/2023/11/09/united-states/three-quarters-of-american-jews-fear-israel-hamas-war-is-making-their-communities-less-safe-poll-finds
https://www.jta.org/2023/11/09/israel/international-news-outlets-deny-photographers-colluded-with-hamas-after-report-suggests-they-knew-attack-plans
@Reader, Felix, Honeybee And to bring this stuff up, NOW? And in the context of an article about Israel’s predicament with regard to it’s supposed friends? Changing the subject in exactly that way when Israeli Jews are fighting for their very lives? Pretty outrageous, guys. And objectively antisemitic. Trying to make Israel into the bad guy for minor, irrelevant issues as Israel is being demonized and Jews are being attacked around the world? Talk about demagoguery!
https://www.jta.org/2023/11/09/united-states/an-la-charter-school-housed-at-a-synagogue-taught-1st-graders-about-the-genocide-of-palestine
https://www.jta.org/2023/11/09/united-states/brawls-erupt-outside-la-museum-of-tolerance-screening-of-hamas-atrocities-footage
https://www.jta.org/2023/11/09/ny/nypd-reports-69-antisemitic-hate-crimes-in-october-marking-a-surge-since-start-of-war
https://apnews.com/article/detroit-synagogue-president-slain-7098a2c942856373f7106ca0d88c0e9d
https://ktla.com/news/local-news/elderly-jewish-man-dies-after-incident-at-pro-palestinian-rally/
https://www.jta.org/2023/11/09/united-states/three-quarters-of-american-jews-fear-israel-hamas-war-is-making-their-communities-less-safe-poll-finds
https://www.jta.org/2023/11/09/israel/international-news-outlets-deny-photographers-colluded-with-hamas-after-report-suggests-they-knew-attack-plans
@Reader I forgot the Middle Passage. That’s the most common one here. And, the same day, another one of my bosses, a black guy, came up to me and said just that, out of the blue.
@Sebastien
A much better response than my own. Very well stated.
@Reader
Cheap ad hominem and childish. Do try harder to focus on the topic.
Because those who perpetrated the crime would like to hide their guilt. It has NOTHING to do with Israel and Israel has no commitment to correcting the lies about the slaughtered masses around the world simply because the Holocaust did not consume our entire people. This is an obtuse and arbitrary requirement to be placed upon the Jewish people when their interests and security demand that such standards be ignored, which she has wisely done.
There have been such debates and when the Holocaust deniers challenged the truth of the Jewish slaughters, where were the Armenians to testify about the slaughter which they participated in conducting.
Torah is not what leads Israel, like it or not. Israel has a secular and religious mixture of population and govt representatives, yet the Biblical teachings of our faith do not in any way guide Israel’s foreign policy.
The obsession that Israel owes the world anything for having survived the Holocaust or that she owes the world due to the teachings of our scriptures is a scurrilously false notion.
In fact, Israel has been a light onto the nations of the world. She does not however do so because she owes anything to the nations of the world, not any one of them. And she does not owe Armenia the debt of being the arbiter of truth about the slaughter which took place between Armenia and Turkey.
I remember walking into work one day and, out of the blue, one of my bosses snarled at me that he was sick of hearing about the Holocaust. What about Rwanda? The New York Times buried news of the Holocaust by surrounding it with similiar atrocity stories in the back pages.
Holocaust minimization is the most prevalent form of antisemitic historical revisionism, other than the lies about Israel and the so-called, “Palestinians.”
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Moreover, as Peloni pointed out, only Israel is held to these standards. Only Israel is expected to condemn Turkey for events of 100 years ago. Only Israel is expected to help Ukraine? This is a double standard.
And the three hallmarks of antisemitism directed against Israel are:
Demonization, Delegitimization, and Double Standard.
Hey, why stop there? What about the Muslim genocide of the Jews of the Arabian penninsula under Mohammed? What about the Muslim genocide against India?
You’ll note that the article below felt the need to compare it to the Holocaust as well, saying probably more than 6 million were killed. i’ve read numbers like 100 million.
The Holocaust sensitized the world to the horrors of racism and genocide and then everybody wants to culturally appropriate it and cut out the Jews. That’s antisemitism.
https://www.sikhnet.com/news/islamic-india-biggest-holocaust-world-history
And then try to maintain the Abraham Accords. 😀
It’s not Israel’s job to make pronouncements about the rest of the world.
Israel is the Nation state of the Jewish people! end of story.
“Despite the incident, Yerevan authorities ignored the need to provide security to protect the only center of the Jewish religious community, “
@Reader
Just like Ukraine though Armenia is allied with Russia and Iran.
https://youtu.be/qGvQGUZhyAs?si=6IrWst8Gq5najVVz
Maybe not only Muslim immigration but Armenian immigration should be banned.
“Contrary to ISIS, The Kurdish and Balochi people distance themselves from Islamist extremism, and insist that they are partners with the Jewish state. Mehrab Sarjov, an assistant to the Khan of Kalat, the former ruler of Balochistan, hopes to eventually establish a state as a model for moderate secular Islam that will cultivate strong ties with neighbors in the Middle East, including Israel, in an effort to jointly oppose Iran’s nuclear program. At the Oslo Freedom Forum human rights conference , Sarjov stated , “We believe no state is granted by God – it’s people who make states…We believe Israel has a right to exist and to full security. We don’t live in the age of empire or religious supremacism but that of the nation-state. If the Greeks can form a country from their part of the crumbling Ottoman Empire, then what’s wrong with the Jews doing the same? The whole world order is based on nation-states, and history shows the Jews need protection.” He elaborated by stating, “If Azeris, Kurds and Baloch revolt against Iran, the country is finished,” Sarjov says. “We believe Baloch, Kurds, Azeris and Jews are natural allies.”
https://cameraoncampus.org/blog/kurds-baloch-israelis/
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“”Jews are the enemies of the Armenian people and the Jewish state sells weapons to the (Azerbaijani President) Aliyev regime,” wrote YFFA members in a statement posted on Telegram, according to the Israeli Kan Public Broadcaster.
“This is a warning, if rabbis in the U.S. and Europe continue to support the Aliyev regime, then we will burn synagogues in other countries,” the YFFA statement continued.
The ASALA statement also threatened synagogues worldwide, saying “this is a warning: Our successful operation on October 3 in Yerevan is just the beginning.”
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/international/diaspora-affairs/1696422602-terror-group-threatens-jewish-people-after-vandalizing-synagogue-in-yerevan
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Maybe Armenian immigration poses a similar threat as Muslim immigration does, eh? How long will it be before Jews and Jewish institutions in the U.S. are attacked as they have been in Israel by Armenian terrorists.
@peloni
I think you would get an honorary doctorate in demagoguery if there was one.
A 50% or nearly 50% kill-off of a total ethnic population is as much of a genocide as a 33%, no matter who perpetrated it or by what means, so why should there be any debate about it?
Should there be any debate about the Holocaust?
I am sure that neither you nor I, nor anybody else on this forum thinks that whether the Holocaust was a genocide or not is a debatable issue.
The Armenian Genocide, BTW, is considered to be the precursor to the Holocaust, there are books written about this issue, Hitler was very much encouraged by the “success” of that genocide and how no one even remembered it anymore.
I have to repeat that Armenians were considered Christian Jews by the Germans (and possibly others) at the time.
As far as “holding Israel to a standard which is ironically uniquely applied to Israel” – it is certainly not fair, however, just to remind you, the Torah certainly has standards and teachings which uniquely apply to Jews and are uniquely moral and ethical, i.e. we are supposed to be “the light onto the nations”.
So are we or aren’t we?
@Reader
From the article you cited:
Israel has a moral imperative to its own survival and the protection of its own citizens. Nothing, NOTHING, should be placed higher than what should be this very simple and obvious truth.
As with the war in Ukraine, Israel had every interest in remaining outside of that conflict. So too, Israel had no role to play as the world’s morality policemen in declaring Turkish history to be an historic reality. Israel is a moral nation, capable of putting all other nations to shame when compared to its dedication to moral actions and the preservation of life, even among the most wicked of individuals, even when these individuals are not Israeli citizens. Her dedication to demonstrating how obtuse she can be while pursuing this moral standard does not, however, require her to place herself into a tenuously difficult diplomatic situation which does not involve her in the least, as was the situation in the ever ongoing challenge to push her to involve herself in the Turkish-Amenian debate.
Sharon writes that Israel has a ‘moral necessity’ to recognize the Turkish genocide, but this is holding Israel to a standard which is ironically uniquely applied to Israel. Hence, it is not enough for Israel to demonstrate its moral character by conducting insanely moral practices such as knocking before bombing. According to Sharon, Israel must also commit diplomatic suicide to appease those fools who have failed to appreciate the fact that Israel owes the world nothing for her people having survived the Holocaust. Indeed, unlike the Armenians and the Turks, the crimes which took place between these nations were specifically between these nations, but the Holocaust was a world event, whereby the world acted collectively to either lock the Jews of Europe within the grasp of the well described genocidal desires of the Nazi state or to participate in the slaughter of the Jews as a part of that genocidal Nazi state.
There are no doubt other parallels with which to compare the slaughter of the Armenians, but the Holocaust would surely make a poor doppelganger for what took place over a hundred years ago in Armenia. In any event, the survival of the Jews from the tragedy forced upon them by the world’s nations could hardly be used to force the Jewish state to betray its own geopolitical interests, simply to serve the interests of a people who actually participated in the slaughter of the Jewish people, as was the case with most all of the world’s nations, including Armenia.
Hence, those who would claim that Israel owes anyone anything for her people having survived the Holocaust must surely seek out a new moral compass by which to direct their misguided sense of moral necessity.
@Reader, Felix, Honeybee
@Sebastien Zorn
https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ftsa&q=why+Israel+does+not+recognize+Armenian+genocide&ia=web
https://net.lib.byu.edu/~rdh7/wwi/comment/morgenthau/MorgenTC.htm
@Reader Yes, well Turkey threatened war if Israel recognized it. Was it worth it to go to war in order to make a purely symbolic gesture about a genocide that took place over a hundred years ago and for which Jews bore no responsibility? In fact, it was a Jewish writer who brought the world’s conscience to bear. They have no gratitude.
@Sebastien Zorn
While I agree that there is a lot of antisemitism among Armenians, they have worse percentages than we do in their own genocide by the Turks and Kurds in 1915 (~50% of the total population, and if not for the Russian army, the Turks (who did cross the border to to so) would finish off the rest of the Armenians who lived on the territory of what is now Armenia, then a part of the Russian Empire).
If they wanted to file for reparations, they would have claims against the US, Great Britain, and Germany (whose scientists at the time were convinced that Armenians are, basically, Jews, only of Christian faith).
I think the major reason that the Armenian Genocide wasn’t recognized by the US (at least) until very recently was precisely because they waited for the two generations of the survivors and their descendants (a precedent for paying reparations) to die out.
Correct me if I am wrong (please give a reference) but as far as I know Israel still hasn’t officially recognized the Armenian Genocide for the sake of friendly relations with Turkey (we know how well that worked, BTW, Azerbaijanis are ethnic Turks).
Last but not least, Israel doesn’t have friends and allies and never will, not in our lifetimes, not until Moshiach comes, anyway.