With a new U.S. president, new ideas are emerging on how to resolve the Israel-Palestine debacle. One of the most promising comes from the Jordanian Opposition Council who favor a new Palestinian state — in Jordan.
The GOP unanimously approved a pro-Israel platform at their convention in July 2016 which stipulated:
“The U.S. seeks to assist in the establishment of comprehensive and lasting peace in the Middle East, to be negotiated among those living in the region,”
David Friedman and Jason Greenblatt, representing Donald Trump, participated in the drafting and were in complete agreement with the final text.
Gone was any reference to the Palestinian people or to a two-state solution. In addition, the platform included the words “We reject the false notion that Israel is an occupier.” If not an “occupier,” then presumably Israel is a sovereign.
Accordingly, the search is on for an alternate solution. Such a solution could take inspiration from the short-lived Feisal/Weizmann Agreement of 1919. The essence of this agreement was that Palestine as it then was, was to be divided into two states, one for the Arabs and one for the Jews. Chaim Weizmann on behalf of the Jews agreed to help develop the Arab state and Emir Feisal agreed to welcome Jewish settlement in the Jewish state and favored friendly cooperative relations.
Although the British didn’t breathe life into this agreement, they did separate Trans-Jordan from Palestine in 1922 with the Jordan River being the boundary between them. Trans-Jordan (Jordan) thus got 78% of the lands promised to the Jews. The remaining 22% consisting of the land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean was to be the Jewish state. This was enshrined in the Palestine Mandate signed by the League of Nations in 1922.
On June 30, 1922, a joint resolution of both Houses of Congress of the United States unanimously endorsed the “Mandate for Palestine,” confirming the irrevocable right of Jews to settle in Palestine—anywhere between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea.
With respect to the Arabs living in Jewish Palestine, the Congressional Record contained the following:
“(2) That if they will not consent to Jewish government and domination, they shall be required to sell their lands at a just valuation and retire into the Arab territory which has been assigned to them by the League of Nations in the general reconstruction of the countries of the east.
(3) That if they will not consent to Jewish government and domination, under conditions of right and justice, or to sell their lands at a just valuation and to retire into their own countries, they shall be driven from Palestine by force.”
The US was not a member of the League of Nations at this time. In order to be able to protect American interests in Palestine, she entered into the 1924 Anglo-American Convention in which the U.S. bound itself to the terms of the Mandate. This of course meant the recognition of Jewish right to close settlement of Palestine and that all of Palestine was to be the Jewish homeland.
Since then, there were a number of unsuccessful attempts, contrary to the terms of the Mandate, to further divide Jewish Palestine into two states. UN General Assembly Resolution 181, passed in 1947, recommended partition, but was rejected by the Arabs. The Jews on the other hand took advantage of it and declared their independence in 1948. Israel owes its independence to that declaration and not to Resolution 181, which was only a recommendation, precipitating the move.
Nothing has happened of any legal consequence since, to cancel the right of the Jews to settle and be sovereign over all the land to the Jordan River.
To date Israel has been reluctant to claim sovereignty over these lands as the Arabs living there would then demand citizenship resulting in a binational state. This is unacceptable to most Israelis. They also reject the two-state solution.
So what is the alternative?
Consider for a moment, that if Jordan agrees to grant citizenship to all Palestinians, as their law currently provides, and invites the return of all of them to live and work in Jordan, the conflict would soon be ended. While King Abdullah isn’t about to do so, the Jordan Opposition Coalition (JOC) would. This coalition represents all opposition groups in Jordan that back a secular state. The JOC since its creation six years ago has supported good relations with Israel. It does not include groups that support terrorism. This alliance has agreed to work together in order to form the government of Jordan should King Abdullah abdicate. Although at least 75% of Jordanians are Palestinians, the King has disenfranchised them to a great extent in favor of the ethnic Hashemites and Bedouins.
The JOC has produced a detailed plan, Operation “Jordan in Palestine,” which clearly identifies their goals and the operational steps needed to implement their plan. Copies are available upon request.
All that is necessary for this to come to pass is for the U.S. to instruct the king, who currently spends most of his time outside Jordan, to not return home. Then it would arrange for the Jordanian army, which it controls, to support the next popular Palestinian uprising, and to designate who among them would form the interim government.
The JOC, puts it this way:
This plan seeks to execute a feasible two-state solution where Jordan is the natural homeland for all Palestinians, and Israel becomes sovereign over all soil west to the River Jordan. This could only happen if the corrupt, terror-supporting and double-speaking Hashemite royal family leaves Jordan. The Palestinians often revolt against the regime but the king’s police force puts them down. The American media ignore this solution to the unrest in Jordan.
What is needed is for the U.S. to influence the Jordanian army and security agency to stand with the revolution the next time it breaks out. The security agencies and army are already securing the country without any influence from the king who is mostly abroad. Under these conditions, the king would not return. Once that happens an interim government of secular Palestinians who want peace with Israel could be appointed.
Once the interim government is installed, it will strengthen the economy by stopping theft of government money and ending corruption. It will fully enfranchise the Palestinians. All Palestinians around the world would be welcomed to return to Jordan pursuant the current Jordanian citizenship act, which already recognizes all Palestinians as citizens of Jordan. Many Palestinians will emigrate to Jordan in part because many have family members and friends living in Jordan. Work opportunities as well as a rewarding benefits/welfare system will be made available to them by the new interim government as further inducement.
Israel, with many international partners, including the U.S., could finance the building of a new Jordanian city of 1 million people. This would greatly stimulate the Jordanian economy and would provide work for the returning Palestinians. The new homes could be made available to the returnees and locals at subsidized prices further incentivizing people to return. The ending of King Abdullah’s discrimination against Palestinians living in Jordan, would also contribute to making Jordan a desired immigration destination.
Michael Ross, a Republican, wrote after the election of Donald Trump, “Trump Must Speak to Mudar Zahran“ because Zahran offers the alternate solution that Pres Trump is looking for.
As part of this solution, all Palestinian refugees enrolled with UN Relief And Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East could be repatriated to Jordan and given citizenship. Thus UNRWA could be wound up and the current UNRWA funding could be transferred to Jordan to assist in the resettlement.
According to Moshe Feiglin, the head of the Zehut Party in Israel, the Oslo Accords have cost Israel over 1 trillion shekels since they were signed. In addition, Israel has borne the cost of three military campaigns in Gaza. Finally, Israel supplies to the Palestinians their energy, water and sewage treatment for free or at greatly subsidized prices.
Last summer, Feiglin proposed a Solution in which Israel extends Israeli law from the Mediterranean to the Jordan:
We will give the Arab population in those territories three options: The first is voluntary emigration with the aid of a generous emigration grant. The second is permanent residency, similar to the “Green Card” status in the US – not like what is currently the practice in East Jerusalem. This status will be offered to those Arabs who publicly declare their loyalty to the State of Israel as the state of the Jewish Nation. We will safeguard their human rights and will not do anything like we did to ourselves in Gush Katif. The third option will be reserved for relatively few Arabs, and only in accordance with Israeli interests. Those who tie their fate to the fate of the Jewish Nation, like the Druze, can enter a long-term process of attaining citizenship.
Martin Sherman has published a similar plan which he calls the “Humanitarian Solution” as opposed to a strictly political solution. He summarized all his writings in support of such a plan and published them here.
With an estimated $300,000 per family grant, both he and Feiglin have estimated that incentivized compensated emigration will cost Israel over $200 billion USD but both argue it is feasible and worth doing.
The repatriation of Palestinians to Jordan, as proposed by JOC, would greatly facilitate the Palestinian emigration and greatly reduce the grants needed to incentivize it. UNRWA and the Palestinian Authority would both be wound up.
1.75 million Palestinians live in Judea and Samaria (West Bank). The 800,000 Arabs in Hebron, Nablus, Ramallah, and Bethlehem could remain there as Jorandian citizens. Ramallah is only 42 miles from Amman, the capital of Jordan. A new highway could be built connecting all these cities to Amman. The rest would have to be transferred to Jordan.
The 1.8 million Palestinians living in Gaza, of which 1.3 million are registered as refugees, would be incentivized to emigrate to Jordan. After enough leave, Israel could extend its sovereignty to Gaza thereby ending that perennial problem.
Considering the subsidies that the West provides to UNRWA, Gaza and the PA, this would be a bargain. Given that JOC has tied its fate to Israel, Israel would be happy to contribute to such a solution as the present conflict costs her hundreds of millions of dollars annually.
It really is that simple. There is much more that can be said in support of it.
Prof. Hillel Frisch, a senior research associate at the Begin-Sadat Center for Strategic Studies and Yitzhak Sokoloff, a fellow of the Ingeborg Rennert Center for Jerusalem Studies at Bar-Ilan University recently wrote Trump and the Jordanian Option.
The inauguration of an American administration uncommitted to the principle of an independent Palestinian state provides Israel with the opportunity to advocate a long-term strategic vision of building up a prosperous Jordan that could provide an alternative to the model of a two-state solution based on the Palestinian Authority.
They are wrong to suggest that this can be done with King Abdullah. I believe, as does the JOC, that the king is part of the problem and must be replaced by Palestinians.
Gideon Saar, a touted future Prime Minister of Israel, in his recent article, Goodbye Two-State Solution, wrote:
A Jordanian-Palestinian federative solution would offer the Palestinians space in addition to their autonomy. We could also consider adopting a joint Israeli-Jordanian-Palestinian economic framework. And there are many other ideas that could be constructed as a result of quiet, serious work with the backing of a supportive US administration.
He is right but the ultimate alternate solution is the one put forward by the JOC.
If anyone wants more information or can help this solution get traction, please write me (tbelman3@gmail.com).
Addendum
David Singer suggested drawing a new border in the Israel Jordan peace agreement. I suggest it should be here.
Shiloh and Beit El must remain in Israel yet they lie east of the new road. In some place the new road can be moved a little to the west if there are significant Arab populations to be included. And look at Ariel. It too must be kept on the Israeli side. A very crooked road. That’s why I came to the conclusion that maybe its better to move them all out.
On second thought I have an alternate suggestion:
Rather than draw a new border, transfer the 1.7 million Arabs in J&S and perhaps 100,000 from Jerusalem to Jordan
But leave the Arabs in Gaza. Israel should put Jordan in power there even if she has to defeat Hamas to do so.
Thus only 1.8 million Arabs from J&S and east Jerusalem would have to move.
One more thing. We could build a highway from Gaza to Jordan . This highway could be open to Egyptian traffic and thus Egypt would finally have a land bridge to Jordan which they want. Jordan would thus gain a port on the Mediterranean.
@ Edgar G.:
Yes, I’ve seen both versions but they never showed the original Laughton version as much so I don’t expect people to know it. There is a veritable cult of Brando. Both versions are actually before my time, not that it should matter. As I mentioned, somewhere else, I turned 21 in 1980, the year Ronald Reagan was first elected.
Well, I’ve led a labor intensive life. And fallen a lot. The first time I needed a cane for a while was when I fell cleaning the snow and and ice from my car.
As I mentioned, in response to an earlier query, I am scrupulous about not plagiarizing so everything in quotes and footnoted is borrowed, everything not in quotes but preceded by some such designation as “chestnut” is borrowed but retold from memory. The rest I made up, some from before, often on the spot. The Cartilage one I made up a while back. Another one I came up with like that was the school motto for an elite school of fish: “Caviar Emptor.” and of course their school song, “Roe, Roe, Row your boat.”
I don’t know if “made up” is accurate. Things just occur to me, usually in response to something somebody said or something I saw. Or they don’t. When I’ve tried to just make things up they always suck. Maybe it’s coming from another place. oooooh.
Ahh, so that’s what Dante meant by “Divine Comedy.” I must make sure to have my pasta al dante from now on. Toss half my “royalties” up in the air. Or maybe just take ten percent.
I was just reminded of Aaron Copland who stopped writing well before the end of his life. He said it was just as if a faucet had been turned off.
Sebastien Zorn Said:
xxx
I just learned that you have osteo arthritis in your knees (if you’re being truthful) and only goes far back as Brando, and presumably never saw the really good “Mutiny” which had Charles Laughton and Clark Gable, and a bevy of luscious beauties….(Movita and Mamo Clark were like ripe grapes…Ahhhh…) Rather young for Osteo….didn’t drink your milk like grannie taught you..eh??
By the way I have 3 books written by Nordhoff and Hall about the Bounty, the tremendous 3600 mile trip in the much overloaded open boat losing only a single man
as well as the later History of the Bounty Mutineers including the first ship to land there and what they found….(just one Mutineer alive and teaching Christianity)) Fascinating no end. I’ve read each several times and can always read them again.
You certainly are full of ……. I bet you thought I wasn’t going to say “puns”) …… It’s always easy when the actual word resembles the pun with a little re-arrangenent. I think Groucho was the guy for that, but all the show guys had writers, sometimes 5-6 churning out stuff for them to use as “original”… I used to like his “You bet your Life”. which because of his ad-libs it seemed so unaffected and natural. It turned out that the WHOLE show was carefully scripted from the first letter to the last, puns, quips and casual off-the-cuff ad-libs as well. Like “The $64,000 question”, a big disappointment , but T.G. much later so it was enjoyed at the time.
So where do you get YOUR puns from……??.
Sebastien Zorn Said:
would I, would I Capt..
@ honeybee:
Oye Oye Cap’n.
Sebastien Zorn Said:
oye
@ honeybee:
”
pun
noun
1.
a joke exploiting the different possible meanings of a word or the fact that there are words that sound alike but have different meanings.
“the pigs were a squeal (if you’ll forgive the pun)”
synonyms: play on words, wordplay, double entendre, innuendo, witticism, quip, bon mot
“”you can make your own antifreeze by stealing her blanket” is a pun guaranteed to get some groans”
—
The doctor told me that I have severe osteo-arthritis in both knees due to long term wear and tear. I replied, “Cartilage didn’t fail in a day.” Must ‘a been all that Roman around.
I learned just how culturally balkanized we are, when I had not only to explain Pitcairn Island and the “Bounty” but who Marlon Brando was, when, my cane dropped and I quipped, “Looks like I had a bit of a Caine Mutiny.”
And “that’s all she wrote.” Ah. I hear the fat lady singing. Time to go. Though I’m sure you have plenty of Carthages left in your revolver, ‘xcuse me, six-shooter. Say “Goodnight” Gracie.
@ Sebastien Zorn:
Still good eyesight at your age.
Sebastien Zorn Said:
It’s Carthage sugah !!!!!!!!!!!
@ honeybee:
squirrels? and no space before comma.
Sebastien Zorn Said:
You found my mistake. I leave them about for you to find , like squirrel searching for nuts.
@ honeybee:
You can’t mean this, can you?
“This is the second half of a quip by Groucho Marx: “Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend…” Of is often an unnecessary preposition”
https://noharmspilt.com/2015/08/28/about-preposition-quizzes/
and I presume you do know it’s “you’re: not “your” as a contraction of “you are”, rather than a possessive pronoun, right? http://www.grammar-monster.com/lessons/pronouns_different_types.htm
(am i mean or what? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4iEdMMjqdA)
@ Edgar G.:
It’s still the Nile, no? And my interpretation give us more territory, no? Which one gives us the Sinai? How you gonna put your version in a slogan? I once read an article where Arafat accused us of wanting all of the land from the Nile to the Euphrates and to deport them all back to Saudi Arabia. And I’ve read other things and seen interviews with the Pals where, to this day, that’s what they believe.
I love it. Call me an Arafatist. Let’s do just that. And for the latter part, sealed cattle cars would do just fine. Electric cattle prods optional.
But, it’s not gonna happen, right? I mean in real life.
“A Nile by any other name…”
– Shakeandbakespeare
@ Sebastien Zorn:
xxx
You were getting me worried, so I’m glad that you DO agree with me. As for the details, I think that the massive enormities of vicious cruelties committed against us until today merit taking any means needed, like Sherman’s March through Georgia. With proper representation listing ALL-each and every terrorist deed committed against us, and prsented to the world, they would finally realise that the worm has turned at last, after having withstood for 100 years what not one single country would have taken for a minute.
Here’s where you disappointed me, where you said you “Googled the Brook of Egypt” and it means the NILE RIVER, contrary to my assertion that it meant the easternmost branch of the Delta now dry.
Googling a little further than the first few lines, shows that “Early Aramaic translations and Jewish Commentaries identify it with …more precisely the Pelusian Arm of the Nile- a no longer extant branch of the Nile lying on the border of Ancient Egypt”…..and…”Modern Archaeological surveys have shown that the course of the Nile changed over time and that the NACHAL MITZRAYIM was an ancient easternmost branch of the Nile whose course differed from that of the later Pelusian Branch”…that the Torah recognises it as “the Nile or IT’S MOST EASTERN BRANCH”.
Rashi says it means the Nile, but Google says right there, that the term “Nachal MItzrayim” is used ONLY “when discussing thr border of the Land of Israel, whereas “YE’OR is typically used for THE MAIN BODY OF THE NILE”….. so it seems that the reference means that it “refers specifically to the Delta of the Pelusian Arm of the Nile..”
Sadia Gaon said it was the Wadi El-Arish in the vicinity of Fayum where Sadia was born and grew up. But it was not the present day El-Arish which is closer to Israel than Sadia’s Fayum was . Google also says that the account of the Exodus is consistent with the identification of Nachal Mitzrayim with the Pelusian Branch and not the Wadi El-Arish….also that Assyrian Texts describing Sennacherib’s invasion of the Pelusium area mentions “Nachal Musri” and ancient Egyptian 19th dynasty texts show that “The Pelusian Arm of the Nile to be the eastern border of Egypt”.
Considering that “pelus” means mud or silt, and that the vast majority of the later biblical mentions, point to the Pelusium branch, should clinch the matter.
As I earlier wrote, the archaeologists when excavating Avaris, discovered that it was on the sanded-over closest Delta Branch to Israel. Googling “Where was Avaris” and opening “Avaris”, shows a map where the city was PRECISELY placed on the “northernmost Delta of the Nile, just below Pelusium, and the closest to Israel.
Like you, I hate to lose an argument……….
@ Sebastien Zorn:
xxx
You were getting me worried, so I’m glad that you DO agree with me. As for thedetails, I think that the massive enormities of vicious cruelties committed against us until today merit taking any means needed, like Sherman’s March through Georgia. Qith proper representation listing ALL-each and every- terrorist deed committed against us, and prsented to the qorld, they would finally realise that the worm has turned at last, after having withstood what not one single country would have taken for a minute.
|Here’s where you disappointed me. Tou “Googled the Brook of Egypt” and it means the NILE RIVER, contrary to my assertion that it meant the easternmost branch of the Delta now dry.
Googling a little firther than the first few lines, shows that “Early Aramaec translations and Jewish Commentaries identify it with …more precisely the Pelusian Arm of the Nile- a no longer extant branch of the Nile lying on the border of Ancient Egypt”..and…”Modern Archaeological surveys have shown that the course of the Nile changed over time and that the NACHAL MITZRAYIM was an ancient easternmost branch of the Nile whose course differed from that of the later Pelusian Branch”…that the Torah recognises it as the Nile or IT’S MOST EASTERN BRANCH.
Rashi says it means the nile, but Google says right there that the term “Nachal MItzrayim” is used ONLY “when discussing thr border of the Land of Israel, whereas “Ye’OR is typically used for THE MAIN BODY OF THE NILE”….. so it seems that the reference means that it “refers specifically to the Delta of the Pelusian Arm of the Nile..”
Sadia Gaon said it was the Wadi El-Arish in the vicinity of Fayum where Sadia csme from. But it was not the present day El-Arish which is closer to Israel tha the Sadia Fayum area.
Google also says that the account of the Exodus is consistent with the identification of Nachal Mitzrayim with the Pelusian Branch and not the Wadi El-Arish….also that Assyrian Texts describing Sennacherib’s invasion of the Pelusium area mentions “Nachal Musri” and ancient Egyptian 19th dynasty texts show that “The Pelusian Arm of the Nile to be the eastern border of Egypt”.
Considering that “Pelus” means mud or silt, and that the vast majority of the later biblical mentions, point to the Pelusium branch, should clinch the matter.
As I earlier wrote, the archaeologists when excavating Avaris, discovered that it was on the sanded over closest Delta Branch to Israel.
@ honeybee:
Enlighten me.
@ Edgar G.:
Catharsis didn’t fail in a day.
But, seriously, I agree with you but how are you going to get that past the liberals in every hall of power from the courts, to military and Shin Bet, to the Parliament even in the Likud? Without a realistic short term counter-proposal, who will be calling the shots?
Sebastien Zorn Said:
Ah your not a fan of Groucho.
xxx
Everyone is both right and wrong. There has been enough (in this computer age-figuratively) paper and ink expended on this situation, to float a fleet of battleships , and enough links to past articles, to fill a block of high rise buildings.
None of this solves anything except to provide a kind of catharsis for the writer or planner. I thought from time to time that several great brains were descending from their podiums, and coming around to my opinion, which is that ALL Arabs must be swept out of Israel like the dust under the carpet, and not allowed residence again, except as Ambassadors from demonstrably stable countries.
Some, for whose brilliance I had great hopes, now talk about allowing Arabs who swear loyalty to the Jewish state to remain, under guarantees of good behavious etc. Even to become citizens…..
None of the above huge series of “if”…”if”….”if” ad nauseam, takes notice of the most basic, most important factor. This is THE ARAB PSYCHE, the Arab mentality, genetically handed down for thousands of years from their desert forebears, and channelled into eternal anti-Jew hatred 1500 years ago..
The Arab who swears loyalty to the State today, and behaves himself for 20 years,
can easily-and there are many examples- turn into a Jew killing terrorist (or just a terrorist) overnight, when his conscience is pricked by a frothing imam as a mosque where he just happened to drop in. The Jewish State, from the days of the first halutzim, have examples of Arab and jew, growing up together in one another’s homes, interchanging food, shelter and friendship, suddenly producing a slaughtered Jew, still in the crop field, with his entrails scattered and organs stuffed in his mouth.
Added to the normal Arab attitude, How are 3 generations of brain-washed Jew haters to be handled….And is the 4th generation, growing up in that kind of home, suddenly to become peace loving, with NEVER an evil intention against Jews…
Sherman produces many “solutions” but the only solution which will work FOR CERTAIN, is the one that another Sherman produced in 1864. It took a week, and has lasted so far for 150 years and looks like lasting for ever.
Once again let me say….”An Arab can never be trusted for anything , even for his own advantage, when the killing of a Jew can be achieved”. A big tragedy was that we didn’t appreciate Kahane whilst we had him, but faction hate and inter-Jew squabbling-the absorbing Jewish occupation- drove him out and led to his assassination.
Israelis, in their pre-occupation with scoring brownie points against their internal rivals, and shining up to the Goyim, are seemingly as genetically pointed towards internal destruction as the Arab is towards Jewish destruction.
The puerility of the whole series of never ending discussions today…is like the buzzing inside a disturbed bee hive…..it’ll quieten down, until the bext impulse to disturb itself occurs. In the meantime, Arab murderers will come and go, and the Jewish State will content itself’ with “containing” an “acceptable” level of low grade warfare. For how long…seemingly for ever.
moderation –
Ted the above writing I posted from the women in green is perhaps worth your posting as article?
Ted Belman Said:
Yes. I said that.
Sebastien Zorn Said:
I then went on to say, “And what’s in Jordan that would be attractive? Their grandparents came to Eretz Israel because of the opportunities offered by Jewish Development. They don’t want to live in a non-oil rich third world country though the last article below seems to dispute that.”
http://www.hq-sf.org/palestinians-stand-out-as-the-most-educated-in-the-world/
http://outernationalist.net/?p=1031
http://english.pnn.ps/2015/06/03/palestinian-holder-of-13-academic-certificates-among-the-10-most-educated-in-the-world/
https://adonis49.wordpress.com/2011/05/30/part-2-why-the-%E2%80%9Carabs%E2%80%9D-in-the-us-are-the-most-educated-and-the-richest/
https://books.google.com/books?id=3ntlybo9BEQC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=palestinian+most+highly+educated+arabs&source=bl&ots=HB7EzL7dTw&sig=06IqY_mOhzb2hsWFHOHm2MPtOmA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjL_q-EyvrRAhVH74MKHRiHBOsQ6AEIeTAR#v=onepage&q=palestinian%20most%
The links are relevant substantiation.
If you are talking voluntary. By force? A) the international community will never go along with that, citing Geneva Accords, however wrongly, B) The PA is armed. We are talking war here.
I said in a comment somewhere else that the best that can be hoped for right now, in my opinion, is to normalize area C, leave everything else as it is, stalemated, up in the air, and end the charade of peace negotiations once and for all which only serve to legitimize the enemy. As the article, the link to which I posted in Chit Chat, and which I satirically entitled, “Europe calls For Two States for Two Peoples” explains, Lincoln opposed Peace negotiations that Europeans wanted because he knew that it would only serve the function of legitimizing the Confederacy.
Remember, Area C is the only part left that Israel fully controls. To implement anything but police actions in B and C would involve armed conflict with the PA that Israel is not willing to do. Plus, any de-stabilization could play into the hands of the Islamist forces and make the wider aspect of the Phased Plan a reality. We don’t want to Turn Yesha into Syria, either.
Normalizing Area C destabilizes exactly nothing. It simply replaces Israeli Military Rule with Civil Rule and firmly establishes sovereignty in an area Israel already controls and that has an overwhelming Jewish Majority, the entire Jewish population — Jews aren’t legally allowed in areas B and C, and have been murdered when they wandered in by mistake — and all the Jewish Holy sites. All this nonsense about Autonomy or emirates or emigration or whatever in the short term is sheer fantasy.
This is territory that Israel doesn’t rule but can go in and ferret out terrorists when need be. It would take a war to change that. Not a police action like Gaza. A total war. A war that nobody wants and that would destabilize the region like Syria right now. The same goes for Jordan. There’s a war on. It’s raging on all sides. Time to batten down the hatches. Apart from random Muslim terrorist attacks like much of the world except for Muslim-free countries like Japan and Bhutan, is enduring, Israel, including Yesha, is a comparatively tranquil oasis in the midst of Hell. Which is pretty amazing when you think about it. If I were religious, I might start talking miracles here.
@ Ted Belman:
He’s quoting himself:
“Israpundit – November 24, 2016
“Bennett calls for a Palestinian “land port” ”
Comment no. 2.
https://www.israpundit.org/archives/63619691
And I agree, as well.
@ Sebastien Zorn:
Israel is not near ready to solve the conflict by a massive program of incentivizing Palestinians to emigrate. Its barely on the radar.
As I pointed out in this article, Mudar’s plan would solve the UNRWA problem by giving citizenship to all refugees. The international community could then transport them all to Jordan. This would include the 1.3 million refugees living in Gaza.
Also Mudar plans to make emigrating more attractive by giving benefits etc.
While this is happening Israel could also incentivize the Palestinians to emigrate to Jordan.
Right now the West is choking on immigrants and prefers to set up safe places in which they can sit out the war. With Mudar’s plan we wouldn’t have to rely on the west taking them in. They could go to Jordan.
This would make Sherman’s plan and Feiglin’s plan more doable and cheaper.
In my article I suggested that all major Arab cities in J&S could be connected to Amman by a new highway. I did this to make the plan more sellable and to reduce the number of people who would have to move. But that idea is very problematic. It would only involve half the Arabs in J&S, the rest would have to more. So I think we might as well abandon that and work harder at getting them all to move except for those who can pass extreme vetting.
@ Bear Klein:
I share you view. Annex Area C and then start incentivizing the Arabs in B area to emigrate. If it is working you can annex some B areas and so on.
@ Ted Belman:
If Israel was willing to go for voluntary emigration as a solution many would go to the West where they would be welcome especially as the Palestinian Arabs — thanks to us — are the most highly educated Arab population. They ran Kuwait before they were expelled for supporting the Iraqi invasion and occupation. This was what Meir Kahane proposed. He gave an example in his book, “They Must Go” of a whole town that made preparations to move to Canada where they were expected in the 70s or 80s thinking that that was the way things were going. Israelis aren’t thinking like that. And what’s in Jordan that would be attractive? Their grandparents came to Eretz Israel because of the opportunities offered by Jewish Development. They don’t want to live in a non-oil rich third world country though the last article below seems to dispute that.
http://www.hq-sf.org/palestinians-stand-out-as-the-most-educated-in-the-world/
http://outernationalist.net/?p=1031
http://english.pnn.ps/2015/06/03/palestinian-holder-of-13-academic-certificates-among-the-10-most-educated-in-the-world/
https://adonis49.wordpress.com/2011/05/30/part-2-why-the-%E2%80%9Carabs%E2%80%9D-in-the-us-are-the-most-educated-and-the-richest/
https://books.google.com/books?id=3ntlybo9BEQC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=palestinian+most+highly+educated+arabs&source=bl&ots=HB7EzL7dTw&sig=06IqY_mOhzb2hsWFHOHm2MPtOmA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjL_q-EyvrRAhVH74MKHRiHBOsQ6AEIeTAR#v=onepage&q=palestinian%20most%20highly%20educated%20arabs&f=false
@ Mudar Zahran:
Most Palestinians wont emigrate to Jordan. They will have to be induced. So the payment to the King is over and above the cost of inducement.
I just posted your article from 2014 in which you take the position that the Palestinians remain in Israel with Jordanian citizenship. As I understand you present proposal this policy has changed and now you are prepared to offer inducements for them to come to Jordan.
Please comment.
Who’s going to take out Abbas, the PA, and the hornets nets of terrorist forces under them? — with popular support, I might add. Has anybody tried to figure out what proportion of the “civilian population” is actually at least some kind of terrorist reserve? And what will be done with them? This is the elephant in the room nobody is talking about. Everybody wants radical change without major bloodshed, a willingness to die as well as kill, and to win by any means necessary. All the noises I am hearing from even the military and Shin Bet are no, no, no. Not to mention the courts and much of the Parliament. All Israel can do now, as things are, is normalize Area C legally so Jews are not living under military law, stop restricting Jewish settlement and secure for all time Jewish sovereignty over the Jewish Holy Sites and heartland where Jews actually live. There is no basis for anything else to change without a change of heart, a warrior’s heart, a conqueror’s heart which we don’t have. Perhaps we need to wander about in the desert for another 40 years for a new generation to arise for more. All peace negotiations must be permanently ended. There is no basis for peace either. Stalemate is what we’ve got for the forseeable future for areas A, B, Gaza and Southern Lebanon. In the long run, these should all be retaken, annexed, settled, and the Arabs expelled as far away as possible, with the exception of the handful who are proven friends. The PLO’s last home was Tunisia. Their only homeland is Saudi Arabia. The moon or the bottom of the ocean would be just as good.
By the way, I googled “Brook of Egypt”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brook_of_Egypt
According to this article, it is generally accepted to mean the Nile. The fact that it may have been a now disappeared tributary of the Nile which nobody can be find and which has been mis-identified is irrelevant. It also has a ring to it. I like it. God gave the Jews all the land from the Nile to the Euphrates and told us to get rid of the native inhabitants. Works for me. As a long range goal. In the meantime they keep falsely accusing us of Apartheid. Liberals like to say Apartheid was unsustainable. Ha Ha. Look at the Muslim world. It is only unsustainable when guilty liberals take over. Apartheid with Jews on top sounds good to me as a short term option. People who want us dead have no right to be treated like human beings. Time to turn Gaza into a Bantustan and start deportations. Families of terrorists would be a good start. There are so many. Just blowing up their homes is useless. They do crowdfunding and rebuild them. Give their homes to Jews and deport their ass.
Even our friends whom we allow to live among us should not have citizenship or the vote any more than non-ethnic Japanese have that. Many other countries, too. Especially Muslim ones. Not that it should matter what anybody else does. Why should we be under pressure to have children to keep our sovereignty. No. If they want to be guests fine. Citizens, no. It’s also ridiculous to give membership to non-Jewish spouses in congregations and schools as the Conservatives are doing. They should be glad to be a guest. How dare they say they want to run things as outsiders.
For all his sympathy, Trump is on another page. His main goal is building an anti-Jihadist alliance so he doesn’t want to rock the boat with potential allies. BB too. I hope Bennett can ram normalization through before Trump and BB can get their bearings.
honeybee Said:
Is that a preposition, sugah?
@ david singer:
In my concept the Terrorists are out one way or the other. Mr Singer you want to keep them so then nothing works.
In my proposal Arabs who not terrorists or their supporters who want to stay and co-exist have choices can stay. Others can leave with assistance except terrorists and supporters.
There is a real enemy who wants the land and the Jews out. Some come up with pretend games like let us move a little and set up a wall to behind it and then enemy can not touch us.
The issue of the conflict is that the Arabs in the Area do not agree to a Jewish State no matter the size or the borders. Any proposal that ignores this truth is a waste of time. No third party like a King who scared of too many Palestinians over running his Kingdom
will solve the problem, sorry this is a mirage at best.
@ david singer:
NOTHING will change until the king and the Hashemites leave. Until then, any calls for a Palestinian Jordan won’t remotely come close to happening.
@ Ted Belman:
The king has offered to take all Palestinian refugees. This was back in 2013 and that was Obama’s peace plan, there was ONE CATCH, he requested 55 BILLION Dollars as “compensation” for his government. The king would welcome Palestinians if given 55 billion. In our case, we would happily do it for free. We care for our people. The king cares for his Swiss bank account.
@ Bear Klein:
… And pigs will fly
Any proposal like yours which requires Jews or Arabs having to leave their current homes or sell up their current businesses is a definite non-starter.
@ Ted Belman:
Promising start Ted.
How many Arabs approx would be left on Israel side of your new border? How many Jews approx would be left on Jordan side of your new border?
@ Ted Belman:
Ted if you mean #10 above I am quoting myself. That is what I mention from time to time as the basis of a new paradigm. It being influenced by Bennett, Sherman and Feiglin as an outline for the steps that need to be taken over time to get to stability and eventually peace in the long term.
Have we not been here before? In 70 – 71 Israel let Hussein – Abdullah’s father stay in power rather than let the whole of Jordan go to the PLO because the PLO is not just itself but its Nasserist, Russian and other sponsors as well. Hashemite Jordan cramps the style of the PLO and its backers so it is worth preserving to Balkanise the Arabs in ex-British Palestine.
The price is that somehow if Jordan is to take back its former West Bank it has to look like the lot even if it is not. Further after over fifty years of skulduggery and campaigning for their independence the Gaza, Judea and Samaria Arabs will want some sort of Home Rule or autonomy even if they revert to Jordanian passports and foreign relations both commercial and political.
It follows that it will pay Israel NOT to start new settlement sites/locations and not to take more than access to the existing blocks. If Israel is to keep the “West Bank” free of the armies of another power and to keep a security presence on the R. Jordan then do not ask for too much elsewhere. Between 1947 and 1967 Israel demonstrated that what matters is to hold, protect and keep a Jewish state in being. Presence in Jerusalem could wait. Now presence in the Jerusalem hinterland can wait – till the Arabs shoot themselves in the foot again.
@ Bear Klein:
Do u have a link for that big quote.
moderation again
There is NO JORDAN OPTION! Jordan is majority Palestinains who hate Israel and want to destroy it. So it is double dumb to put these people into Judea/Samaria in any form.
You want to send the Arabs of Judea/Samaria to Jordan great be my guest. Nothing in reverse. Israel needs to stay in Judea/Samaria with at most municipal control of Pal Cities by the locals. If these locals get Jordanian citizenship great.
Israel must maintain the ability to go into any place West of the River Jordan for security, until their are no more terrorists. Otherwise we will have a Gaza II.
When the planning was going on for the evacuation of Gaza, many of us said if we evacuate Gaza it wil lead to war not peace. We are now in a lull there until the next war because we did not leave the IDF in place.
Igrnoring that in Judea/Samaria will be highly risky to the lives of many in the State of Israel. You can only trust the Arabs if you are so strong militarily that they will not risk getting into war with you. Part of this strength is retaining Judea/Samaria. The most risk is autonomy in Arab cities with Israel mainting the right and ability for controlling security.
@ Ted Belman:
Read any security document the Heights of Samaria and the Jordan Valley must be controlled by Israel for security. We need the border at the Jordan as it is now for security.
You never know what will happen to the east of us in the long term. Focusing on politicial solutions without security as the highest priority ignores reality that we would not be safe.
Kindly look at this five video you may have seen in the past for clear view of Israels needs
The Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs presents a five-minute video that dramatically and clearly delineates Israel’s critical security needs to protect it from attack.
.
The Jordan Valley if Israel did not control could be used to send foreign armies or legions of terrorists from which to stage terror attacks on Israel. Israel must keep control of the Jordan Valley and should enlarge the Jewish Towns there.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/139150
@ Bear Klein:
Both David and I support a new border just west of all the Palestinians cities. But there is the possibility that the Jordan valley remains in Israeli hands. I am not partial to Mudar’s plan. If the King is prepared to follow David’s plan then I’m cool with that.
Mudar has my support because I don’t believe that the king want’s to do it. But as I suggested the king could be given an ultimatum.
Mudar needs the army to stay in their barracks. The Palestinians have guns. But if the army helps him, all the better. Nobody else will help him. He realizes he has to be ruthless.
Peace can only come from clear victory and vanquishing the Palestinians who want to destroy Israel. Those left after such a battle will either have to leave or agree to co-exist in peace on Israels terms.
This is the only way forward. Muddled solutions based on third parties are mirages.
All of you are talking as if it is your land to give away! It is not. The Land of Israel was sanctified for all time to be property of the People Israel, and is a heritage to all generations to perpetuity. All of it. Any discussion that involves the loss of this Land in any way is an intellectual waste of time. Giving any part of the Land away is no different to having it seized by force, which would make any proposer an Arab. Still think your parents are proud of you? what about all the generations that went before them? Or, all the generations that will follow your children?
@ Ted Belman:
Ted, I understand that one does not trust the King of Jordan. You say he must be replaced by Palestinians. Really since what matters in the middle east is who has military capabilities what friednly Palestinians in the middle east with guns do you see?
Mudar Zahran with his eloquent statements last I heard lives in London and does not have an army in the middle-east. So unless one has a loyal army ready to act on behalf of their agenda this is not remotely possible.
So the USA, Egyptians, Israelis, Saudi, Gulf States are advocating the JOC? Anyone in the backrooms advocating for the JOC? The JOC gets meetings with these power brokers?
Ted look at some of things Yamit wrote as he is right on the mark.
At the end of the post, I added a map of Area C with the border drawn in red as I would propose it.
Have a look.
A border does not have to be a straight line. That is where lots of rubbers will be neede in the negotiations.
Israel was prepared in previous offers in 2000/2001 and 2008 to cede its claims in more than 90% of Judea and Samaria. Israel will probably not be that generous again given the present circumstances and upheaval on its doorstep.
You might like to read the following article I penned in 2004:
Like the remarks of Netanyahu in 1984 and Peres in 1991 the facts and conclusions expressed in my article are as relevant in 2017 as they were back in 2004.
It is a disgrace that Jews and Arabs have suffered deaths, injuries and trauma that could have been avoided over the past decades because organisations like the UN and European Union never sought to understand or even consider these facts as the basis for ending the Jewish-Arab conflict – even though many of the European states especially had been part of the League of Nations that had unanimously agreed to the creation of the Mandate for Palestine and to the inclusion of article 90 in the UN Charter.
They should all hang their collective heads in shame.
I would be thrilled if Abdullah would agree to A new border. But the fact that there are many Area Bs throughout Area C will make it very problematic. Some Area B should be shut down such as Tulkarem and Qalqilya (pop 50000) and the Arabs in them sent to Jordan east of new border. The border must be rationalized and some Arabs required to move. After WWII population transferswas an important tools in stabilizing Europe.
Furthermore the highground of J&S must be retained in addition to the area around the airport. Your basis for where to draw the borders, ie majority populations, must be revised to include that the borders must also be defensible ie, we get the highlands.
The solution to Gaza and the refugees doesn’t have to be part of the deal but the international community could easily deal with these issues.
Have you written anything detailed on your deal or is it just agree to a new border?
If I am right, the king will resist.The US may have to give him a choice, agree to the new borders or be deposed. Either way I’d be OK with it.
Ted
You may have never embraced my Jordan is Palestine option until now – but you need to have a re-think.
Mudar’s plan is based on a host of improbables and hypotheticals including deposing the King. It will never get off the ground.
My proposal is based on an agreement to reset the international border separating Israel and Jordan in direct negotiations between two parties enjoying a signed peace treaty already – with an American President anxious to do a deal to resolve the conflict and ready to protect Abdullah from forces that would seek to overthrow him – including the JOC.
Netanyahu got it right when he told the UN on 11 December 1984:
Even the late revered Shimon Peres told the Jewish Telegraph on 11 January 1991:
These are historic, geographic and demographic truths that no amount of Arab propaganda or UN Security Council resolutions can erase.
The time – I believe – is fast approaching when these statements by Netanyahu and Peres will indeed become accepted as the basis for ending the Jewish-Arab conflict.
Ted,
Jordan is an illegaly created state on land for ever santified as Israel. No matter what you or anyone thinks, and what any government does, this is not going to change. Just because you don’t accept this, does not change this fact. You are talking into the wind.
@ Mudar Zahran:
@ Sebastien Zorn:
@ Birdalone:
@ david singer:
@ yamit82:
@ Bear Klein:
Mudar has told me that before regarding the Palestinians as being a cash cow for Abdullah. Nevertheless the king continues to discriminate against them and in some cases cancel their citizenship. Also , if they are so valued by him you would think that he would invite more in but he isn’t.
I maintain that the king doesn’t want more Palestinians in his country and therefore is not amenable to changing the peace agreement as David suggests.
I have never embraced the Jordan is Palestine option til now because it would need the consent of the king and I didn’t believe such consent was available,
Mudar’s proposal is available, so Israel and the US must decide if it is doable. Can they put him in power and can they keep him there. Key to this is who controls the army. I will read Zorn’s links and check with my sources.
So far, its not clear if Bibi would support the removal of the king.
No deal is a lay down deal. Neither is this deal. But the rewards, Gaza and UNRWA are worth the risks.
If the king can be convinced to repatriot all Palestinians, I would go with him.
@ yamit82:
You have rocks in your head if you believe all of the Arabs now holding citizenship in Israel (1,200,000) plus I presume the 2 million living in Judea/Samaria must be resettled beyond that line in Jordan…
The numbers would be less than 100000 as probably some parts of Area C which presently house these 100000 would form part of Jordan under its newly agreed border with Israel.
I never knew the Palestininians were such a fertile group – turning 100000 into a million in ten years? Come off it…
This kind of senseless bravado is to be deplored. It is far preferable to do everything to achieve a peaceful resolution as has happened with Egypt and Jordan.
All that is needed now is to recognise a new border between Israel and Jordan.
You further state:
“War solves nothing, and peace also solves nothing; in the long run, nothing solves anything.”
Peace has reigned between Egypt and Israel since 1979 and between Israel and Jordan since 1994. A pretty good record – in my humble opinion.
Peace has changed confrontation into co-operation in Israel’s relationship with its two most immediate neighbours.