[Be sure to read the comment that appeared on Jihad Watch. I reposted it.]
By Ted Belman (24.7.22)
Pres Biden has come and gone with little to show for it. But he has, however, left some debris in his wake that will set the stage for Israel’s coming election.
While he reaffirmed his support for the Two-State Solution (TSS) he went on to say “the ground is not right at this moment to restart negotiations,” and,
”The two-state solution is still the best way to ensure peace and democracy for Israelis and Palestinians; however, I don’t see a near horizon for this solution.””
Both Prime Minister Lapid and Benny Gantz share that view. Lapid said ”A two-state solution is a guarantee for a strong, democratic State of Israel with a Jewish majority.”
Meanwhile, Gantz expanded upon this recently with many striking comments at the Aspen Conference in the US. He began by saying “I think the Abraham Accords can today help strengthen the Palestinian Authority, and build a reality of separation and two entities”.
He continued by stating that “I see this as a Zionist matter and Israel must be a safe, democratic and Jewish state”.
He then made the shocking statement that he was “Happy that I blocked the threat of annexation of Judea and Samaria.” What??
I think he was referring to his practice as Min of Defense of enabling illegal Arab construction in Area C. As if that wasn’t enough he offered “gestures” which went far further than even the legalization of such construction:
– Approval of the registration of 5,500 stateless persons in the Palestinian Population Registry, in addition to the 12,000 already approved.
– Approval of six master plans for Palestinians in Judea and Samaria – Confirmation of validity in Hizma, Hermela; Permission to settle in Paciks, Hares, Kisan and Tir.
– Increasing the quota of workers from the Gaza Strip who are allowed to enter labor and trade in Israel by an additional 1,500, to a total quota of 15,500.
– Opening of a new crossing – “Salem” – in northern Judea and Samaria, a mounted crossing for the purpose of the entry of Israeli Arabs into the city of Jenin.
Gantz is actively supporting the Fayyad Plan which the EU is financing and backing politically. The Plan is designed to illegally take over Area C in violation of the Oslo Accords and so far it is succeeding.
Thus both Lapid and Gantz agree that the Palestinians must be separated from Israel in order for Israel to remain a democratic state with a Jewish Majority. Neither of them, however, made even the slightest mention of claiming sovereignty over Judea and Samaria, our biblical heartland. Indeed, their combined silence on this issue clearly demonstrates their complete disinterest in doing so.
Despite this goal of ceding the land to the Arabs, Gantz persists in describing it as a “Zionist matter”. The prospect of this policy is terribly reminiscent of Herzl’s misguided acceptance of the British Uganda Proposal tabled at the Zionist Congress in 1903.
Jewish Virtual Library records;
“While Herzl made it clear that this program would not affect the ultimate aim of Zionism, a Jewish entity in the Land of Israel, the proposal aroused a storm at the Congress and nearly led to a split in the Zionist movement. The Jewish Territorialist Organization (ITO) was formed as a result of the unification of various groups who had supported Herzl’s Uganda proposals during the period 1903-1905.”
That split remains today.
In fact the Left in Israel supported Moshe Dayan’s actions in turning over the Temple Mount to the Arabs after conquering Jerusalem in 1967 for two reasons. The first was that they didn’t want to start a holy war with Islam which Dayan said would be the result of keeping it and the second was because they wanted to undermine the role of the Jewish religion in Israel..
After the War of Independence, Israel extended sovereignty over all land conquered beyond the partition lines pursuant to a law that became known as Ben Gurion’s Law. Unfortunately she declined to do so over all lands conquered in the ’67 War. The reason it wasn’t done is because the leftist government didn’t want to contend with the Arabs living in said lands and didn’t look upon it as our biblical heartland. As a result UNSC Resolution 242 was passed.
Today, the Center/Left supports ridding Israel of Judea and Samaria for the same reason.. They prefer Israel, to be a state of all its citizens, rather than a the nation state of the Jews.
In summary, the Left wants to diminish the role of religion in Israel and they want to separate from the Palestinians.
Israel’s troubles started in earnest with the signing of the Oslo Accords (1993 and 1995) which was negotiated and approved by the Center/Left Government with a one seat majority. The worst part of the Oslo Accords was that Israel was required to invite Arafat and 40,000 of his fellow terrorists into Israel. They became the bane of Israel’s existence.
The second colossal mistake was disengaging from Gaza in 2005. That action was also promoted by the Center/Left. As a result we have been subjected to 4 inconclusive wars with Gaza.
In 2005, in the lead up to the Disengagement, Olmert said at the Israel Policy Forum, “We are tired of fighting. We are tired of being courageous. We are tired of winning. We are tired of defeating our enemies.”
Within a year he became Prime Minister and said “We want them to be our friends, our partners, our good neighbors. And I believe that is not impossible.” And “Peace is achieved through concessions. We all know that.” Do we? What about “peace through strength”?
Does he still believe “it’s not impossible”? Do Gantz and Lapid believe that?
Why does the Center/Left still promote the TSS? Why do they refuse to learn from the past? Why do they ignore that the Charters of both the PLO and Hamas call for the destruction of the State of Israel? Surely they know that the TSS is a fantasy and will never come to be.
Caroline Glick, in 2014, published The Israeli Solution: A One-State Plan for Peace in the Middle East. In it she proposed that Israel annex all the land west of the Jordan River with the exception of Gaza and offered a path to citizenship to the Arabs.
This was more palatable to the Right as it kept Judea and Samaria for Israel without endangering the Jewish majority. But the center/left rejected it because they wanted separation from the Palestinians.
In July 2022, Al Arabiya, a Saudi news outlet, published The Hashemite Kingdom of Palestine by Ali Shihabi.
‘This proposed enlarged kingdom would include present-day Jordan, Gaza, and the West Bank (areas populated by Palestinians attached in a contiguous manner and physically connected to Jordan’
This was a far cry from the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative of the Arab League led by Saudi Arabia.
No doubt the Gantz and Lapid would love it. If there were no alternative, some on the right in Israel might also find it better than the status quo.
But there is an alternative known as the Jordan Option which will soon become operational.
It incorporates the same rational as does Ali Shahabi’s plan, but differs from it in two key respects: namely where the western border will be and whether the new entity is a kingdom or a republic.
The Jordan Option requires Jordan to be a republic with the Jordan River as its western border.
My article, How the Jordan Option will impact Israel, explains it in detail.
Both the Left and Right in Israel will love it and so will the Palestinians for the most part.
I predict that the right will promote the Jordan Option during the coming election. Consequently, the resulting contest between the TSS fantasy and the Jordan Option will present the voters with a clear opportunity to choose whether they should continue to tie their fate to the failures of the past, one more time, or to pursue this new option, the Jordan Option, with the new Jordanian Republic.
As a result, the Right will win a strong majority of seats and an earnest path towards peace for the Arabs and the Jews alike.
@Edgar Thank you for the reference to Christopher Sykes’ “Crossroads to Israel”. I purchased it for $10 as an ebook on Amazon Kindle (it is also available as an ebook on Barnes and Noble Nook), and have begun reading it on my ipad. I have also begun reading volume 1 of the Zeitlin, “Rise and Fall of the Jewish State” 2nd edition. I don’t have any questions so far and I am enjoying them, sort of. i wouldn’t generally think of it that way. I’m studying. Have to take frequent breaks. Did you enjoy school? Oh, right. you did. My eyesight is not the best, so that’s another factor. Anyway, your contribution did not go un-noted. Please keep up the bibliographical recommendations.
BEAR_
Thank you for your candid comment. It disappoints me intensely. I wonder what his motives are, does he make any money from it, if not then what??
He HAS been making some very unintelligible comments lately, with no real meaning, like gibberish in a way. But WHY??
Ted is convinced and I have great respect for his acumen. And some years ago they (I presume both)_ did an enormous amount of investigation on prefabs and ready build apartment block , with the costs for each of the surrounding countries. I thought a lot of that.
I know that some years ago The Elders of Ziyon had VERY disparaging reports about him, including one from Caroline Glick.
So again, thank you for your prompt-if upsetting- response.
@Edgar, I am no longer active on the site but glanced in.
This answer may get deleted. A year or so ago I detailed proof of some the comments and claims made by Mudar and some of his associates as to how they were made up and fraudulent. Ted, deleted them and sent me a message they if I keep it up he will ban from Israpundit.
Mudar is a fraud and he carefully makes predictions to sound like he has inside knowledge into events. Nothing ever comes true. Some of the things I had listed before Ted deleted them from the sight had actual proof.
That is my take. Anyway hope you are doing fine in Western Canada and the spring is coming out.
@Edgar
Yes, I found the book to be very detailed, and provided inflections from his father’s writings which were very insightful. A real treat IMO.
PELONI_
Thank yo for your positive response. You are the first who has actually acknowledged my previous posts on here, and indicated that you’ve read the book ( and not it’s WIKI description-I hope),
It has been described as the definitive account of that period.
Sykes had the benefit of all his late father’s papers and documents of that time and his dealings with Picot.
SO HE KNEW…!!
@Edgar
Yes, you have described the road by which the descendents of the Sharif of Mecca came to be ‘king’ as a consolation prize more than once. Also Sykes’ book is a richly described telling of the history. Among the must reads for anyone interested in understanding the period.
The Hashemite becoming Jordan’s Royal Family was quite accidental.
If you read Christopher Sykes’ “Crossroads to Israel”,
and even the chronicled history of the period, you will see that it was an accident, which morphed into a foreign family deposited on the soil of Jordan. Once there they were supported by Britain, in the person first of Winston Churchill who offered it to them.
It all began when Feisal, Lawrence’s friend, and the son of the Sharif of Mecca, proclaimed himself King of Damascus and ruler of Syria, which by an uneasy post WW! French-British haggling had been allotted to France as a Mandate.
The details which followed are easily obtained anywhere on the internet, I’m sure.
I have described them minutely a couple of times on this site, and don’t propose to do so again.
BEAR-
My understanding (which you can correct) is that the Jordanian Military are really under the control of US.
So if Mudar, who is supposed to have a large support of Bedouin and other tribes residing in Jordan, were to enter the scene, he would already have a substantial segment of the population for support, as well as, presumably the Army, because I’m certain that without their already pre-arranged support, he would not make his move.
Also, this would have to be co-ordinated with Israel. Israel would already have prepared an economic and even perhaps military agreement which in the circumstances would be very advantageous for Israel and genuine Peace in the Middle East for the very first time .
It’s important for me to reiterate that I strongly believe that Mudar will NOT move without certainty of already arranged success. He is NO adventurer, but a solidly rooted peaceful and practical politician.
“Encourage” all the Judea and Samaria Moslems to move to Jordan and then wait for them to start a war with us. Presto! No more “Palestinian” State and no more “Palestinians”. Plus, we gain full control of the Temple Mount!!
@Bear
Mudar is aligned with Israel. He supports Israel. His vision is completely complimentary to Israel.
The Hashemites are antithetical to Israel. They have Jewish blood on their hands. They have sparked wars with Israel. They are not unfriendly, they are our enemy.
There is no delusion in this. Quite the contrary, actually.
@Peloni. You believe in Mudar as the savior. Talk about delusional.
Israel can only rely on Israel and not any third party with many years of empty promises and zero actual on the ground delivery.
The King and his wife appease all the hostile Palestinians with his anti-Israel talk. You are correct about one thing that Jordan does not attack Israel because it would get crushed.
If the Hashemites get overthrown and it is not a military uprising. The next most likely scenario is the Muslim Brotherhood doing taking over in Jordan (aka the affiliates of Hamas.
No one in the middle east takes over any country without an army on the ground. Mudar has no army. He lives in Britain. When the PLO tried unsuccessfully to take over Jordan in the 1970s they had a small army that was working with Syria to try and take over Jordan. The Hashemite Army crushed the PLO.
So far when any of the Iranian allied third party or separately tried to enter Jordan with a military force from Syria or Iraq they have been beaten back by Jordan’s military. Mudar has no such force outside of Jordan and none inside of it that holds control of any part of Jordan. So Mudar makes lots of promises which sound nice to sound to Jewish ears.
I think Israelis and Jews need to be realists first order to solve their problems. So I wish Israpundit would brainstorm possible real world solutions not dependent on third parties. Maybe that is also wishful thinking and I am wasting my time here debating.
@Bear
Forgive me but this is a delusional understatement at best. The Hashemites school Jordanian children to see Jews as colonial usurpers, as apes and pigs to be targeted and killed. They call for Islamist attacks against Israel due to concocted claims of faux abuses at Al Aqsa. They have been caught supplying arms and gold to Islamist seeking to become martyrs while slaughtering innocent Israelis.
They triggered the 2021 May War of Riots and Rockets. They provided arms for some unknown number of attacks against innocent Israeli’s last year. They provided financial support for terror attacks on the streets of Israel. State sponsored terrorism is war. How many dead Jews does it take to recognize that Hashemite Jordan is an enemy. They are not unfriendly, they have a death wish for Israel, and their leadership is supporting terrorist activity in Israel under the guise of diplomatic mailbags.
While it is true that their tanks are not rolling across the Jordan to claim the remaining 22% of Mandatory Palestine, it is only because they know they could not get five feet into Israel before being annihilated. And yet, they have every hope of doing so. Their former PM has stated as much without any ambiguity, just as he noted that will do so whenever they might have the means to do so.
Hence, the Hashemites are not “unfriendly”, they are our mortal enemies. Their rule in Jordan has maintained an intolerable threat over Israel, and their persistence in that role will only aid the slaughter of Jews which the old conception helped to convince people into believing that this was an acceptable means of survival when it is not.
The old conception displaced the need of Israel to build an iron wall while also ignoring the fact that the Arabs were building their own Iron Wall. They mean to slaughter our people, to butcher them in their homes and to drag any survivors into slavery and torture. It is time for Israel to resurrect the call for the Iron Wall, to bring war upon those who have made war upon us and to support those who would support our position in the world because they see our position in the world to be consistent and complimentary to their own world view.
Mudar is such a man as this. He will rid Jordan of the Islamist elements, return the stolen citizenship which was ripped from the Pals by the Hashemites, and pursue a peaceful cooperation contingent upon a combined prosperous economy and future with his Jewish neighbors. He will do this because it is both the goal he chose for his people as well as it being the means by which he will maintain power.
Jordan government is very unfriendly to Israel but not at war.
Jordan Option discussed for many years and has not come to more than talk, so it viability is questionable to be understated
Two State formula is delusional and a formula for war from lesser secure borders for Israel. Just as Gaza has proven a massive security liability which has necessitated a full blown war to stop the danger. A Pal Arab State in Judea/Samaria would also lead to a full blown war.
Israel needs to help facilitate the voluntary emigration of as many Arab Muslims from Judea/ Samaria as possible.
Israel security (not PA forces) need to be in charge of all of Judea/Samaria. Israel needs to apply sovereignty to all of Judea/Samaria eventually. This may start piecemeal first in the Jordan/Valley, all Jewish towns, farms and cities in Judea/Samaria.
Then start facilitating voluntary emigration from Arab villages in Judea/Samaria. Buy Land than can be clearly owned by Arabs and sell it to Jews or lease to Jews.
The Jordan option absolutely.
@Peloni thank you for your view.
@Bear
Actually, it should be noted that Jordan run by the Hashemites remains as a very real and presently certain threat to Israel. Do not forget or excuse the role which Abdullah has played in calling for violence against Israeal while referencing false allegations of violations to the freedom of worship by Israel. Also do not forget or excuse the fact that it was exactly such a false claim as this which led to the 2021 May War of Riots and Rockets, where Abdullah’s condemnation of Israel was used to signal the combined efforts of Hamas and Israeli Arabs against Israel. Even still today, Abdullah and his vicious wife play the role of condemning Israel with no basis upon which to do so. Also couriously enough just 3 days before the Simchat Torah Massacre began, Rania used her speech before the One Young World Summit to raise such false condemnations against Israel. Her blistering commentary at this event was propitiously timed as if in anticipation of the slaughter which ensued literally just a couple of days later, and notably enough there was no relevant recent event which might spur her to make such false claims as she raised at that event.
It is in Israel’s interest to have Jordan rule as a peaceful, prosperous, stable and reliable ally in the region. Yet, none of this has ever been achieved under the Hashemites, and it never will be. The Hashemites are our enemies. They are aligned with the Islamists which are in fact included in their govt, they support terror in Israel and have been caught delivering weapons and gold to the Jihadists killing Jews in the PA. Jordan under the Hashemites have been and remain a threat to Israel, and it is only the ties to the old conception which held that this line of brigands in power and tyranny over Jordan was the best possibility which might be had. As with all the other aspects of the old conception, I suggest that supporting this Islamist associated line of colonialist holdovers in power in Jordan is not in Israel’s interests.
This is an example of what I believe should be facilitated. Send voluntarily the Arab Muslims of the Land of Israel to Muslim countries primarily, wherever in the world it is!
https://www.jewishpress.com/news/eye-on-palestine/gaza/rt-chechnya-building-homes-for-gazan-immigrants/2024/01/15/
Third option assist with the voluntary emigration of Arabs from the Land of Israel to what ever country they want to go.
As long as the regime in Jordan is AS-IS there is no real world Jordan Option. If it happens great. However Jordan is 80% Pal-Arab and these people hate Israel. Jordan run by Palestinians could actually be a threat to Israel.
There are lots if things wrong with this posting. First if all I think reader and peloni should get together and work out their differences. We need not ve involved.
Coming to the real content, any divesting of land to whomever is bad news. They don’t need it, we do. Connecting the Gaza Strip with Jordan means a 3 state solution. Northern Israel, Southern Israel and West Jordan. Not useful.
Allowing Arabs to migrate across the river is wonderful. Who is expected to finance this wonderful adventure. What do we expect to happen when the migrants get less than they were told to expect (something like the right of retrun?) .
The very idea of winning the wars and then giving it all back as a concession is a non-starter.
However, by misguided policies, we gave already done some of that, think of Sinai snd the freshly developed oil-field, the brand new airport near Eilat etc. We have already reached agreement with Jordan. Like Egypt, they don’t really want these new migrants but they may be willing if the price is right. However, the Jordan Option may be a path to a new reality, but with the same players, the result will likely be the same – more strife.
Jihad Watch published this article.
Here is a comment worthy of note.
@Ted Belman
Congratulations!
@peloni
You are incredibly dishonest and you will do anything to “win” an argument.
Saying that the Government of Israel will reject any solution because they already have their idea of what is the right thing to do does NOT mean that huge aliyah and not giving away land are not “doable”, much less me admitting that these things are not “doable”.
In fact, these things are not only doable (possible, achievable) but they have been done several times, i.e., the aliyah during the Mandate (in spite of the British doing everything to limit or even stop it), almost a million people making aliyah after the war from the Arab countries, almost a million people making aliyah from the FSU from the late 1960s through the early 1990s, and, so far, there hasn’t been any official “cutting Israel down to size” as far as Israel’s Biblical lands are concerned (even if we don’t mention the gains made in 1967 – not sufficiently appreciated, possibly) and there has been a significant Jewish settlement (although here the situation is worse than with aliyah).
You keep adding your own interpretation to what people say and calling it logic.
This article has been published by Jihad Watch, American Thinker, Times of Israel, Israel Unwired and Israel National News.
@Reader
This is an unfair qualification of my words or this conversation in which this will be my final response.
You suggested
You then say
I am hardly having fun at your expense, though it seems you are uncomfortable with me pointing out the error in your logic. I was in fact just responding to your own words which do suggest that the HUGE aliyah you are calling for is not in the realm of the possible and you acknowledged this. Feel free to continue, but I think I see little point in continuing this thread.
@peloni
Can you read?
Or are you just trying to have some fun at my expense?
I am telling you that I don’t have any plans, and you reply “Yes, you do! You are offering solutions and making suggestions none of which are doable.”
Well, if you mean by this that aliyah and not giving away land are not doable “suggestions” – what can I say?
This is just your opinion, however stubborn, and I am not going to argue – to each his own.
At least I am not suggesting wrapping up Jordan around Israel while chopping off another part of Judea and Samaria to add to Jordan and creating a highway or a tunnel across Israel for the Jordanians to conveniently communicate with each other while, most likely, keeping the 2 million strong 5th column inside the Green Line.
@Reader
It seems I hit a nerve. My appologies. You describe it as “solutions”. I said “plan”. Reread what I wrote substituting “solution” for “plan” or just substitute “what you are suggesting” for it instead. What you are suggesting is not doable, whatever you care to call or term it, for the very reason you yourself described.
Oh, and I only used the word ambitious because you seemed to agree that there was no way what you were calling for could be achieved. It wasn’t meant as a slight.
@peloni
I DON’T HAVE ANY PLANS, “ambitious” or not.
Whatever plans are being discussed here belong to other people, not to me.
All I said was that I prefer to keep the land because it is preferable to have the land to add people to than to give up the land and be unable to grow the population of the country, and that, in my opinion, Israel needs a huge aliyah (which is a wish, not a plan) but the government prefers to limit aliyah and to let the Arabs settle the land.
Where in the world have you seen MY plans here?
Especially the ones that are not doable?
All I am “advocating” is aliyah and no land giveaways.
About “doable” speak to Netanyahu, et al., what does it have to do with me?!
I have no control over these people.
@Reader
You mistake the point I am trying to make with my question on this issue. I am not trying to press you or ridicule you or your ambitious plan. My point was to draw from you the answer to the question of how is what you are advocating possibly doable, as I have suggested it is not. With your statement that
I see that you agree, regardless of why your plan is not doable, it is not doable. Not suggesting your aspiration on this point is not an admirable one, just that it is not a practicable one.
The problem is not really with the solutions but with the people in power all of whom would block any solution because they already have their own idea of what to do, and this idea has nothing to do with the good of the country.
@peloni
Yes, I did mention what the Jewish Agency could change to encourage aliyah.
My post was about aliyah.
I don’t understand your demands for an explanation of what I would do to make everything in Israel change for the better.
There is absolutely NOTHING I can do about the fact that Israelis have given up on Israel and that Israel’s DEFENSE MINISTER is dreaming of a “Palestinian” state, of dismantling the “illegal” Jewish settlements and of strengthening the PA instead of Israel.
If you wait for an enlightened ruler to materialize and change things you will, unfortunately, be waiting in vain.
I think we are getting closer and closer to the next Holocaust while Regavim, et al. are making a long list of complaints about why the land should be ours and not theirs.
The “world community” wants to destroy Israel, and the politicians are in on it and they are cooperating to save their a@@@s
@Ted
You make a very strong argument here, and, in fact, it is hard to deny that as Trump led America towards a point of solidarity, no one in Israel seems so capably able to remotely obtain a similar success for the Israeli people. This has remained true, even as Bibi succeeded in his many stunning policy victories with Trump, and remains true even still with the policy failures over the past year including the biting betrayal of Gantz over the past months. Over the past 4yrs with all the elections at hand, it seems inexplicable that the Right succeeded in having the numbers to form a govt only once, last year, and still stands to be only within a whisker’s chance of gaining a single seat advantage in every other poll.
The reality is that it would seem that there should have been a sharp drive to the right from last year due to failures of Bennett’s govt and the increase in Arab violence. However, if we are to accept that the supporters of Yamina and New Hope were from the Right as is only reasonable, this would suggest that the Right has actually shed votes over the past year, despite all that has occurred, as if there was a persuasive aspect to Bennett’s govt, leading more voters to support the Left in the coming election than did so in the last election, according to a consistent theme across many polls.
Hence, Israel is truly in dire need of a candidate with a Trump-like ability to break the existing paradigm and gain the sway over the Israeli public’s ear, as it seems they are incapable of responding to the betrayals and policy failures of the past govt in ways which would only seem reasonable to expect they should.
In the same article, Ganz says he wants to “leverage” the Abraham Accords to strengthen the PA rather than bypass and weaken it. Does that even make any sense? The PA is against normalization. That’s the whole point. He’s delusional.
Never once has any PLO leader deviated from it’s 1974 ten point program.
“3. The Liberation Organization will struggle against any proposal for a Palestinian entity the price of which is recognition, peace, secure frontiers, renunciation of national rights, and the deprival of our people of their right to return and their right to self-determination on the soil of their homeland.”
https://yaf.ps/page-1517-en.html
The problem as I see it is not demographic or that the Arabs have 10 or 11 seats.. The problem is that Israel chooses to tolerate the Arab intransigence and even makes them stronger. Rather than wage war against them to suppress their propaganda and incitement, we appease them. Its on us.
And now that Gantz is comfortable saying how happy he is to thwart our designs on J&S, the cat is out of the bag.
I talk with the leader of Regavim weekly.. She has a budget exceeding $4million and runs a big team. She is in touch with Yesha Council both of who are doing all they can. But it is up to the Government to take action. So far it is AWOL.
We need a leader like Trump to galvanize the people to claim what is rightfully ours.
@Reader
But you don’t explain how you would change this. The Left would not support it, the Right would not support it. A similar nightmare to Bennett’s experiment would not support it. So how do you expect to achieve what you are advocating? Not trying to be unpleasant, but you are simply stating the problem. Yes it was Israel’s policy that blocked them, but how do you purpose to change that policy. As I stated, it is not doable, not given the current circumstances.
Furthermore, Caroline’s plan doesn’t have a major flaw. I would suggest it is completely flawed, as it doesn’t solve the problem which it is meant to resolve, namely the Pal cleft. The Pals remain in Israel. The Israeli Arabs gain massive numbers of new Pal voters while the Jews gain none, providing the Pals with even greater control over the content of the Israeli govt. Israel has to also unilaterally absorb the social support of the new numbers of Pal poor from Area A and Gaza, causing an enormous increased burden on its economy. It only relieves the pressure by the international community while both ending their demand that Israel accept a Terrorist as a peace partner and also preventing any partitioning of the land. The JO does all of this and much more than this. In fact, I am unaware of who if anyone might openly support Caroline’s plan despite it having been possible since she proposed it in 2014, though I may simply be uninformed on this point.
You suggest the JO is not doable. I disagree. Mudar will come to power in the near future and then what is currently not doable will be doable.
Following this, I believe Ted is correct that the Right wing parties will come to see the great advantages which the JO offers and will consequently support it, while the Left wing parties are still supporting the TSS. As Gantz’ actions are being ever increasingly supportive of the Pals(understatement), it will only serve to further compromise the Left in Nov, by galvanizing the Right to increase their voter turnout and potentially gain some support from the Left.
And then the public will have their choice between the TSS and all the disadvantages it carries and the JO and its many benefits in the coming election.
As I said, Mudar must first come to power. So, let us see what happens.
@peloni
They “failed to appear” because it was Israel’s policy not to let them in.
I saw an article in a Jewish paper years ago written by an important Israeli official, and the idea he advocated was to have the American Jews stay in America and support Israel with money, etc. from the outside.
Of course, this policy was misguided because the next generation, instead of continuing to support Israel like their parents did, started intermarrying, assimilating, thinking that Israel is something optional, and in the worst cases, for some of them Israel is a colonialist state which abuses the poor, innocent “Palestinians” and takes their land.
I would also cancel the current requirement by the Jewish Agency of having to prove that both a prospective oleh and his mother are Orthodox Jews, and stop their “selection” process.
To me, the most important thing is to hold onto the lands in Judea and Samaria because without the land the state becomes indefensible, and high population numbers permit creating facts on the ground as you can see from what the Arabs are doing, and this is the best way to hold onto the land.
If you give away land, you kind of kill the future aliyah also.
Glick’s idea has a major flaw in it but I don’t think that JO is doable at all.
It presumes too much good will on the part of the Arabs, that’s why it sounds to me like a fairy tale.
I think the real problem is that Israel’s government gave up on it – they got TIRED, like Olmert said.
I fail to understand how the influx of 2-3 million Jews could solve the problem created by the Arab cleft, especially given the fact you are advocating for Caroline’s melting pot plan of democracy for all, where 2-3 million Arabs will be potentially entering the Israeli body politic from Area A and Gaza. Aliyah is important, but it easily does not solve the problem of the Arab cleft, nor does it address the political divide in Israel which is being controlled by only 8% of the vote represented by Arabs. If you add 3million Jews and Caroline’s plan adds 3million Arabs, what does that solve? And how do you plan to gain the 2-3million Jews making aliyah which failed to appear over the past 30 years (your numbers)? Your logic is evading me.
If Israel brought 2-3 million more Jews on aliyah in the last 30 years, they would outvote and outsettle the Arabs without needing anyone’s permission for the simple reason that they would need a place to live.
Can’t means won’t.
I think it’s not too late yet but it may become too late soon.
@peloni
I think you need to take a course in logic.
Maybe more than just one.
@Sebastien
No debate.
There is no Demographic Time Bomb, as it was always a mirage to motivate the Jews to accept any quarter demanded by the Arabs. Furthermore, they are claiming the land with their illegal squatters, but only with the aid of the new Leftist regime that Bennett raised to power over the objection of the Israeli election that gave the Left nothing close to a ruling majority.
Also you are correct that the problem is not that there are not enough Jews in Israel. If there were half as many Jews or double, the current state of in-governability which has enacted the rule of the minority might very well still be in place. This is due to the fact that the problem is that there are too many voting Arabs which can, and do, block the Jews ability to form a ruling majority in their own state. The consequence of this is that the Arabs can play the kingmaker and thereby control the Israeli govt to act against its own interests. Herein lies a troubling consequence of Caroline’s plan, or one of them at least, IMHO.
The Jewish State has a destiny which should be decided by the Jewish People and no one else. The identifying trait that makes Israel unique as the Jewish State is its Jewish character alone, not its democratic standards, not its undemocratic Judiciary, not its Arab minority. Furthermore, the distinguishing mark of this Jewish character lies with the Jewish people and the tie that binds them thru their heritage to their ancestral lands, and nothing more. Indeed, it should not be too much to expect the Jews to be left to fashion their own future by themselves in their own Homeland and yet, even in this, the Jews are left with a minority say. They should not be forced to cede their lands to terrorists or divide their govt with those who wish to only see the entire state be over run with destruction. And yet, this is the fate that has been chosen for our single tiny Jewish State. Best we move forward with a remedy, such as the JO, to cure all this before the remedy is, itself, made obsolete thru the control of a tyranny in the form of an adversarial minority.
@Reader @Peloni There is no demographic time bomb. The problem isn’t not enough Jews to settle the land but not enough of the land where Jews are allowed to settle! And too much of the land where Arabs are allowed to pour across the border and settle with EU and US funding. Now the PA is offering these illegal Arab squatters farm equipment. Whose state is this, anyway? And the Arabs infiltrate into Jewish areas while banning Jews.
I mean what you are suggesting is not doable, for the reasons I stated. Nothing more.
@peloni
What do you mean by “changes to the laws guiding aliyah” specifically?
Israel didn’t need any laws of aliyah or after 1970 through the early 90s – any changes in the “laws of aliyah” to bring in a couple of million Jews.
Do you mean that Israel should stop restricting aliyah?
@Peloni @Reader Currently, Jews in Area C have Israeli citizenship but Arabs do not. That was the law whose extension deadline the Likud used to bring down this government. But it’s the land over which sovereignty must be applied. There is no reason why the status of Jews and Arabs should change if sovereignty is applied.
Woody Allen: Love and Death: A small piece of land
https://youtu.be/WCOzqP9Dt9E
Moshe Feiglin: Democratic terminology being used to import progressive agenda
Israel National News > Israeli News > Moshe Feiglin: Democratic terminology being used to import progressive agenda
@Reader
There will be no HUGE aliyah to Israel without changes to the laws guiding aliyah. Neither the Right with the Heridim, nor the Left with the Arabs, nor a repeat of the Bennett-Frankenstein experiment will change those laws. Just an obvious observation.
Glick’s plan will simply result in increasing the number of Arabs voting in Israeli elections and thereby controlling governing policy over the Jewish State. This obvious flaw in her plan is quite concerning, particularly given the fact that the only reason the Israeli govt has been without a functioning govt for the past 4yrs is due to the already too large Arab faction acting as a spoiler to good governance. So the solution to this problem is to increase the size of the faction prohibiting good governance?
The TSS is a Leftist fantasy which is has obsessively been held by the Left as the only solution by which the Arab problem in Israel might be addressed. It ignores the reality that it has always been based upon the irrevocably ill-advised notion to reward a terrorist entity with their own state, and then to consistently ignore the fact that Fatah employs its control over the PA to further support terrorism as they constantly return to negotiate with them. How disingenuous is it that Israel went from a standard of “We do not negotiate with Terrorists” to the modern standard of “We exclusively negotiate with Terrorists”? It is highly damaging to Israel as it supports the promulgators of terrorism as being legitimate statesmen, particularly as Gantz and his legion of the Left are seen to be standing in line as it were to meet with Abu Mazen and kiss the ring that sits upon the blood soaked hand of this butcher, while also filling his pockets fat with cash to pay his terrorist legions, defying established laws forbidding this.
The Left’s undying devotion to pursue at all costs, and in fact at a very great cost, their support of the TSS has failed to achieve any benefit from their efforts, that is, unless there might be seen to be some benefit to be gained from their creation of not just one terrorist entity ruling over Israeli lands, but two, and that each of these terrorist entities are actively supporting close range terrorist attacks against the Israeli people.
The Left still believes that if they can only try a little harder, making a few more sacrifices to the Arabs, they might actually succeed in achieving peace, even as they have never achieved so much as any acknowledgement by these terrorist for Israel’s right to exist at all. The obsessive resolve to repeat the same mistakes and expect some new outcome is a well measured description of pure insanity, and in this it seems the Left have a seamlessly endless supply.
There is, however, an opportunity available to the Israeli people to change this incoherent dynamic, as in the coming election they will decide which path is the best path to avoid the repeated failures of the past. I agree with Ted as to which choice they will make, as the advantages and risks could not be any more clear than they are between the TSS and the JO.
Ganz and Lapid plan to return home to Chelm after the holidays.
@greenrobot
They probably think that Israel is a failed experiment and there is no way it can succeed, that’s why they are so anxious for the visaless entry into the US for Israelis.
Of course, it is ridiculous to think that the US will be open to ALL Israelis.
Personally, I like Caroline Glick’s idea the best (if there is also a HUGE aliyah to Israel).
Lapid and Gantz are putting the public to sleep by saying the right things so no one protests – no one cares much what they actually DO.
In my opinion, most of the Diaspora Jews think that Israel is kind of optional – if it ceases to exist, the Diaspora will still be OK.
They cannot be more wrong.
How is it possible that Lapid and Gantz are Jewish and think this way?
https://www.jewishpress.com/multimedia/video-picks/gantz-happy-he-sabotaged-israeli-sovereignty-in-judea-samaria/2022/07/22/