How the US and the EU are to blame for its failure.
A critical analysis; Res 242, Oslo Accords, RoadMap, Kerry Framework
What Netanyahu has agreed to.
If not two states, then what?
SPEAKER: Ted Belman BASc, LLB
DATE: Monday January 19, 2015
TIME: 7:30 PM
PLACE: OU ISRAEL CENTER, 22 Keren HaYesod St., Jerusalem
Ted Belman is the Editor/Publisher of Israpundit.org and has been for 12 years. He made Aliya from Toronto in 2009 and currently lives in Jerusalem.
He has devoted his full time to Israpundit and has made it one of the most important pro-Israel blogs on the internet.
His articles are regularly published by American Thinker, Canada Free Press, Arutz Sheva and many other sites.
He is interviewed weekly on the Zelda Show which is produced in Toronto. In addition he is periodically interviewed by Middle East Radio Forum and the Denice Pandel Show both of which are broadcast from the United States.
Advance purchase: 25 NIS
On the internet go here: http://bpt.me/1117635
On the phone, call: 017 44 122 444 3377
Admission at door 40 NIS
@ Topaz:
“A detailed U.N. report, filed by the Secretary-General’s Special Representative, Nils-Goran Gussing, also found little support for claims of expulsions. Among other things, the review noted that “during his visit to the area, the Special Representative received no specific reports indicating that persons had been physically forced to cross to the East Bank.” Gussing did record “persistent reports” of acts of intimidation by Israeli armed forces and attempts to suggest to Arab residents that they might be better off in Jordan. But he noted that “the inevitable impact upon a frightened civilian population of hostilities and military occupation as such, particularly when no measures of reassurance are taken, has clearly been a main factor in the exodus from the West Bank.”
“The Special Representative recorded that the mayor of Hebron, one of the largest Arab cities on the West Bank, told him that even with an Israeli assurance there would be no fighting nearby, “when the Arab Legion (Jordanian army) withdrew from the area, people began to flee. Approximately 15,000 to 18,000 out of a population of 150,000 in the area had left,” the majority “before the arrival of the Israeli troops … They had left of their own free will without any pressure from the army. Many had come back, and about 90 percent of all those who had gone would like to come back.”
“Israeli law, passed in the 1950s to deal with Arab refugees from the 1948 war, in general also barred the return of Arabs who fled in 1967”.
@ Topaz:
Got any idea how much he paid them, or what fund or account the money came out of?
@ yamit82:
Told you before (on several occasions): the only typos of yours that I ever ‘correct’ are those that significantly alter what I suspect to have been your intended meaning. The others are of no interest to me.
— There wasn’t anything like that in there this time.
I cannot find the reference, but I remember the 67 war very well. After the war, Dayan paid the Arabs to leave. They were happy to go. Then the US insisted that Israel go into Jordan and bring these people back, in trucks. Dayan said these people would become a 5th column, but the US insisted. And the Arabs were brought back. It was all over the news at that time.
AND then the Israeli representatives hurried to the various Western capital to try to talk those leaders and to the UN to NOT condemn Israel. (I was horrified, let them risk condemning Israel – they would have to answer to their own citizens. A shameful thing for Jews to do, I thought). The talk was that Israel pre-empted that war and thus was to be censured. That was one of the reasons Golda Meir waited until Israel was attacked at the 1973 war, causing horrific slaughters of Israeli soldiers, and Israel nearly lost that war. Kissinger insisted the Israel needed to be bloodied, to give the Arabs some pride etc. etc. etc.
@ dweller:
I agree !!!
why didn’t you correct all my typos, you always have???
@ yamit82:
Well conceived.
Soundly reasoned.
Aptly put.
@ Topaz:
Do you have more info about this? — What US officials did Dayan deal with in the matter?
I knew attempts had been made at resettlement during the 50’s & early-to-mid 60’s — Libya, Algeria, Tunisia, France, Brazil, Argentina — though most of them fell thru when the plans became public. But the post-’67 attempts come as news.
Topaz Said:
A different generation before all the media and communication options. Today each of us can potentially command an audience of big media. Each of us can become an instant news reporter PR spokesman etc. Almost no one today pays attention to official spokespersons and most never get air time or print coverage unless in the midst of hot conflicts.
Isaels weakness is also it’s strength. Free speech. We have too many divergent opinions and no consensus of agreement not in government or among we Israeli citizens and not even among diasporah Jews.
The Arabs besides being well funded speak with one voice on Israel and a simple message. Israel cannot compete with that not in funding nor with one voice and one simple message.
We can only act to create the desired facts on the ground making real debate and option for others limited to mute.
Easier to explain a fait accompli than to try to justify our existence and rights to a world that at best is ignorant and apathetic to antagonistic. It has always boiled down to what we do and not what we say by we have no clear message and no consistency when we do. We confuse our few friends and irritate those who are against us.
I’m afraid tha i don’t see any signs of that realituy changing in the near future.
Yet Israel does act and that we do not hear about our activities is good because that means they have or are succeeding. We only hear when they. Some things we still do well and professionally.
@ yamit82:
Yamit, your guess about the Europeans and Americans thinking of us traditionally as patsies, then growing to hate us because we learned to fight back and win, is a pretty good analysis of their psychological processes. There are times when I would like to be able to hammer such people into the ground like fence-posts. But barring that possibility, I want as little Jewish dependence on them as possible, and as soon as achievable, no dependence on them whatsoever.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
@ yamit82: Israel USED to do its deeds ‘quietly”, admitting nothing. So, it needs to be that way again. Do whatever is needed for your own survival and benefit. Play the words game – AND hire a fabulous P.R. person. Do NOT allow anyone but a select TRAINED P.R. person to speak to the media, EVER!!!!!!! They are NOT your friend. The people of the world will admire the resolve and the swift and hard actions Israel takes; will begin to demand this of their own governments. Question, how to keep the Israeli and other Jews from doing everything in their power to betray their own.
@ Topaz:
The West is unwilling to stand with Israel, but the West is also unwilling to stand with the West. The Europeans and this American administration refuse to acknowledge Islamic terrorism, much less fight it. If the French and the Dutch won’t condemn Muslims who are destroying France and the Netherlands, it’s unrealistic to expect them to support Israeli self-defense.
Some of their hostility toward Israel is antisemitism, but I suspect that some of it comes from shame. The Israelis have been far more willing to fight back, and that must make the Europeans feel really inadequate. Europeans have traditionally viewed Jews as being patsies, so it must kill them that the roles have been reversed. I can’t prove it, but I think envy plays a huge role in the criticism of Israel.
If true, that means the more criticism of Israel the better. When Israel bombed the Iraqi reactor, it was a case of “Condemn me now. Thank me (in hushed tones) later.” The same thing will be true with combating Muslim terrorism. Israel must lead the way because everyone else has flinched. Heavy unfair burden, but when it’s sink or swim we just have to stop bitching and swim.
@ ArnoldHarris:
If you read my comments I do not deny that Stalin was a formidable Russian leader and that he helped at times our people. And that is fine.
I also know all about the brutal anti-Jewish purges and the infamous work of the “YEVSEKTZIA” as integral part of the regime NKVD and KGB apparatus.
Stalin indeed destroyed Nazi Germany in a brutal war that ended way before Hitler’s apparent suicide.
Yet some of his actions must be faced as they were.
The discussions are foolish because they are assuming a drop of willingness by the surrounding Nazi-Arabs to rationally and in their best interests to deal.
The complete elimination of the Jewish people from the face of the Earth is an world imperative. We must act accordingly, without illusions, and cunningly to save our people and claim our land. While we somehow survive while wait for the Meshiach, while we wait for another Mt. Sinai. The only thing that happens to Martyrs is that they get eaten. What good being a light onto the nations, if there are no Jewish people left to do that deed.
Again, discussions as to Arab population in Samaria and Judea are mute.
It was tried after 1967 war, many Arabs were paid and left. BUT, the US et al were furious, and told Dayan to bring them ALL back!!
Jordan would NEVER accept them, nor would the other Arab nations, for the goal is to keep them as an excuse to demand all of Israel, and as a source of terrorists.
This is how it is done, take-over by demographics.
So, the only solution is to be cunningly ruthless and singleminded. Quietly buy up the lands and homes, provide lots of money, put these Arabs on really nice ships, and send them as undocumented aliens to Western shores, complete with tons and tons of money. Bribe whomever necessary to take them in. SAY NOTHING, ADMIT NOTHING.
Barring that, only brutal war to remove the Arab invaders, for that is what they are.
QUESTION STILL NOT ANSWERED: What has the US on Israel that it can FORCE Israel to do its bidding. Surely it cannot be the $3 billion in aid. This US control has forced Israel to be NOT militarily independent and helped fuel the American military industry.
And why is N still traveling to the US, EU, Vatican, UN to talk with the Nazi-minded leaders. Israel NEVER gets anything and if it does it only lasts a short time. So why bother??
@ ArnoldHarris:
Thanks Arnold. Very informative.
@ ArnoldHarris:
During WWII I was yet a very young child. By 1948 had already grown enough to be able to help by relying with LU4EB amateur powerful radio station, directions to our people seeking many things needed in Israel. I know that Stalin did on his fashion provide vital help at that time and also know what he did during purges.
My call for him as such is couched in my recognition that he was ONLY and ALL for Russia and others who he recognized as potential allies and or victims of his and our nemesis, Hitler.
Mr. Putin has much in common with him in a more refined fashion.
Shmuel
@ SHmuel HaLevi 2:
Shmuel, you can classify Stalin and the Russians as monsters, but they are among my permanent heroes.
In WW2, just about the only Polish Jews who survived Nazi extermination were some 400,000 Jews in eastern Poland, which was occupied in September 1939 by the Red Army, who were picked up and dumped in various gulags in the Russian Far East. Most of these survived long enough to get released to serve in an allied army. These included Menachem Begin. Then, following the Nazi invasion of the USSR on June 22, 1941, Stalin’s government facilitated the evacuation to western Siberia of some 1.4 million of the pre-war Russian Jewish population of about 4 million. There, many of them were put to work in various defense-related industries, while about 600,000 Russian Jews served in the Soviet armed forces, and some of them rose to high command. Maybe you didn’t know that Stalin had more than 100 Jewish generals, who well earned the ranks and privileges bestowed on them. In comparison, how many Jews were raised to high rank in the US or British armies in that war? Hardly any. And in most of Europe other than the Soviet Union, or among Tito’s Jugoslav partisans, Jews were not permitted to take up arms and defend themselves at all.
That’s not all. The very fact that Stalin’s great armies were tying down most of the German Army — which began losing badly as early as December 1941 when fresh Soviet armies smashed them around Moscow — made it impossible for Hitler to send reinforcements to the German-Italian army attempting to beat the British in western Egypt. What do you think would have happened to the 400,000 Jews of the pre-Israel Yishuv if and when that German-commanded army had been able to take Egypt, then cross the Sinai into Eretz-Yisrael? They all would have been shipped to Auschwitz, which is what happened to the Jews who lived on some of the Greek islands after the Nazis conquered that country.
Then, in 1948, when Ben-Gurion’s government declared independence and was looking for weapons to defend the then-600,000 Jews of the new State of Israel. Truman’s USA mouthed pieties but embargoed any weapons sales to the Jews of Israel. Stalin, on the other hand, arranged for trans-shipment of Czech-manufactured Messerschmidt BF109 fighter aircraft, along with artillery, antitank weapons and a lot else. All of that was put to good use in 1948-1949, and played a significant role in stopping the Egyptian, Jordanian, Syrian, and Lebanese armies, which otherwise could well have overrun the whole country and put an end forever to Jewish dreams of a real Jewish state.
Shmuel, I truly do not care how many Estonians, Latvians, Poles, Ukrainians or Poles that Stalin wiped out or shipped to this or that gulag. My only thoughts about Jews and Judaism is what’s good for the Jews, and most of those folks treated our Jewish nation like dogs. And if we have to get help from a monster, then I will sing praises to that monster.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
@ SHmuel HaLevi 2:
Shmuel, I disagree with you fundamentally regarding the Russians and Stalin. Russians are the only Europeans whom I respect, and ever since I became aware of Stalin as Russia’s leader in the early 1940s, I have held him in profound regard.
I never have been a communist or leftist of any kind, and I learned early on never, ever to trust any liberal, Jewish or otherwise. The fact is, since I voted in my first US presidential election in 1956, I unfailingly voted for the Republican candidates. Moreover, I have learned, over my 80 years of life, to despise democracy as a system of governance, other than in the most rare of circumstances.
I also happen to be a Jew, by birth, and I freely admit to my dual loyalties to the United States of America and to the eternal Jewish nation. And, as you might well guess from all the comments I ever have written on Israpundit, my response to anyone who takes issue with my divided loyalties is that he, she or they can kiss my ass.
Now back to the Russians and Stalin. They won my enduring love and respect for the monumental national effort they undertook to break Hitler’s armies that had overrun all the western parts of their great country. Turning back those Nazis, and smashing their way into Berlin, compelling the suicides of Hitler, Goebbels, their wives, the murders of Goebbels’ six children, and the suicide of significant numbers of the Nazi regime, all cost the Russian nation some 22-25 million people. I am vindictive, and nothing I ever have studied has given me pleasure on such a scale as what I learned about the destruction of Berlin in 1945.
As for Stalin, whom I think was one of the greatest leaders in history of one of the major countries, he foresaw as early as the mid 1920s that Russia under a socialist regime would never be able to enjoy peace with the west Europeans or even the Americans. He clearly knew that the level of Russia’s industrial and scientific development and the level of their economy, even almost a decade following the Russian revolution, would never enable them to fight off a serious attack. He openly talked about just that in one of his speeches to a meeting of the Soviet Politburo.
Then he set to work doing something about it as soon as he got control of the power to do just that, instead of the kinds of whining I hear continually from Jews other than those of the Jabotinsky and Kahane stamp. First he collectivized Russian agriculture, which resulted in a mass of laborers who could be put to work in industrial rather than agricultural jobs. At the same time, he forced the industrialization of Russia with his series of five year plans that began in 1928 and which by 1941, when the Germans invaded his country, his policies had turned Russia into the second greatest industrial power in the world, behind the USA.
To be sure, Roosevelt’s America, assisted limply by the fading British Empire in World War II, did in fact send some $11 billion worth of war materiel and other assistant to the USSR. But none of that began arriving in quantity until after mid 1943, by which time the Soviet armies had broken the back of the German forces and had started clearing the enemy off their western lands. For example, the vast battlefields of Leningrad, Moscow, Stalingrad, and Kursk were defended and won almost exclusively by Soviet-manufactured battle tanks, artillery, fighter and bomber aircraft, and small arms. Much of that manufacturing could be achieved largely because Stalin’s State Defense Committee had the foresight to move many thousands of military industrial plants from western Russia deep into the Eurasian interior, even in the depth of the Siberian winter. Those plants were back in production in some cases before they even had time to put permanent roofs over the buildings. Throughout these travails — far more grave than those visited upon any other country that did not surrender outright to Hitler — Stalin never wavered from his sense of purpose or his wise policies that put his country and the great Russian nation ahead of any other consideration. Was he in fact a monster, as you proclaim to be? Maybe so. But he was the man who saved Great Russia from Nazi domination. And because he was able to do that, he may well have been the key factor that stopped Hitler from conquering and holding all Europe and western Eurasia from the English Channel to the Ural Mountains and from the Arctic Ocean to the deserts of north Africa.
Did he particularly like Jews? Not that I know of, or even care about. But he was the man responsible to saving the lives of hundreds of thousands of Russian and Ukrainian Jews by making it possible for them to be mass-transported to the east, far out of the reach of the German armies and the SS Jew killing gangs that accompanied the German armies into western Russia. And in 1948, when Ben-Gurion declared the independence of the first Jewish state in Eretz-Yisrael in 2000 years, it was Stalin’s USSR and his satellite states in western Europe that provided much of the start-up armaments that HaPalmach and Israel’s new little air force put to immediate use to fling back the combined armies of Egypt, Transjordan, Syria and Lebanon. Meantime, Truman’s USA and the British all denied Israel of needed weapons and, in the case of the USA, gave the Jews of the new Jewish state nothing more than lip service.
So yes, Iosif Stalin is one of my heroes, and the great Russian nation as well. And my wish is that the Jewish state of Israel could have leaders such as that great man, and a populace so dedicated to the Jewish state and the Russian nation was to their own country, when came the supreme crisis in the recent history of the world.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
@ ArnoldHarris:
Stalin was a monster. A RUSSIAN all the way monster.
Mr. Putin is a refined late model of the same type.
@ SHmuel HaLevi 2:
Shmuel, I had not thought of the Nobel Peace prize. My experience of so many decades is that it all too frequently is awarded to scoundrels and weaklings.
I don’t know if you would agree with this, but I think that if Hitler and his gang had won World War 2, he would have been a recipient of that prize. Small wonder that Stalin sneered at all such pretentious nonsense, and instead of yearning for “peace”, industrialized Russia sufficiently to beat to death the German armies that invaded great Russia.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
@ ArnoldHarris:
Well said.
We are heading to what I believe will be the last run of the old mill. Netanyahu desperately WANTS his Nobel, no matter how many Jewish lives will that cost or how much Heritage and rights he will offer to abandon.
He will fail… And with him will go the “peace industry”.
He will try to include again Livni and Lapid if the voters let those two survive the electoral cycle.
They will fail…
He will fail…
The Jewish people will prosper.
The main thing about the peace process is that is all process and no peace.
Which is good, because, Israel must expand in order to live in the world order changeover that’s coming.
It’s still the same old story, the fight for love and glory.
Play it again, Sam.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
Mount Horeb WI
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
@ CuriousAmerican:
If you are going to say Bennett idea does not work you should at least present it honestly.
First we manage the issue and then in the long run we try to find a way for the Arabs who do not want to co-exist to leave. If they are violent or working with terrorists then can be forced to go. Others may want to be assisted humanely as something similar to Sherman’s plan. First Bennett is right NO PA STATE AND NO JEWS MOVING FROM THEIR HOMES.
The Arabs are actually emigrating even though not fast enough. The Gazans if they had a way to leave would, per polls.
@ CuriousAmerican:
First mistake! Since you know the Arabs are incapable of peace, the only solution is removal.
Why is always your half-baked solutions the only ones. The only solution without alternatives?
Curio, find a shady place where neither the moon or the sun will not shine. Take your only solutions ideas and put them right where the moon will not shine.
@ CuriousAmerican:
I did read your post. I did not reply without thinking. That is exactly what you do. Here is what I wrote:
Haven’t you read numerous times and in different publications their statement saying that they do not want to negotiate. They want the total destruction of ISRAEL. Wiped out to take over what during their occupation of the region was nothing but an unproductive desert?
You are doing the same as in the past. Take part of a sentence leaving the rest of it or part of the information
out, to distort y “tergiversar”.
@ CuriousAmerican: The Palestinians in Judah/Samaria are enemy aliens and are treated accordingly. To me it is amazing we let 16,000 work in Israel.
Democracy is not a suicide pact. The Arabs and other minorities within the jurisdiction of the civil government of Israel are treated with full civil rights as in any democracy.
The Palestinians want their cake and eat it to. They want to terrorize us into leaving but we fight back they whine about being victims. This is sort of like your argument sounds like.
If you care about the Palestinians start an NGO that helps them emigrate to other countries. This is what you stated you believe is the correct solution no?
I have surprised that you have not been around to agitate or play devils advocate as you claim, I believe.
@ CuriousAmerican:
A say in municipal govt or regional govt is one thing.
A say in national govt — on issues of national import — is quite another.
Borders and population registry are national issues.
@ CuriousAmerican:
It is you who create straw men. Israel did make offers to them which they rejected. Never mind whether Israel should not have made the offers.
My fight with you, and many will agree with me, is not over the solution but over your arguments in favour of the poor Arabs and your interpretation of our obligations. You constantly do this and it irritates.
@ CuriousAmerican:
Yes “ethnic cleansing” is considered a pejorative and is perhaps a war crime, but it need not be.
“ethnic cleansing” is often a solution to a problem and should not be ruled out. After WWII there was much transfer of populations in the interests of national stability. This was considered more important than the rights of the people being moved. Secondly during all wars people flee their country and become refugees. Except in the case of the “Palestinian refugees” no one suggests that the refugees go back.
In other words they accept the cleansing. Only for Israel is this understanding rejected. Israel isn’t permitted to seek the same kind of stability that other countries seek for themselves.
CuriousAmerican Said:
Wrong again. You are making things up about R242. It simply says that Israel should withdraw from territories when they have an agreement for secure and recognized borders. Thus the SC has approved of Israel staying there until she has such an agreement, (it is implied) to her liking”.
Where do you get this,
This is fabrication on your part and can in no way be supported by the text or the context.
CuriousAmerican Said:
Once again you are reading into it. It says nothing more than that an agreement on security and borders is necessary.
Israel accepted R242 rather than simply annex all the land. She is sticking by her acceptance and so am I. But that doesn’t mean she can’t take unilateral moves when an agreement after 45 years is not forthcoming. Israel has no obligation to wait forever for such an agreement.
You are imposing a trust that was never implied or intended. Israel has already withdrawn from 90% of the territories and need not withdraw from more to satisfy the resolution. The reality at the time was that Israel must make peace agreements with Jordan, Egypt and Syria, her neighbours. The PA was added as a party by virtue of Oslo but only according to the terms of Oslo.
There is nothing in Oslo that says Area C “cannot be used for Israeli benefit”.
Stop making things up to make a case for the Arabs.
CuriousAmerican Said:
My comment to you was intended to rebuke you for this paragraph. You are forever reminding us of the plight of the Palestinians and reminding us of our duty. In doing so you totally ignore that the Palestinians agreed to their plight. They also signed the Oslo Accords.
Has any of your bilious anger offered a solution?
Unlike you, I actually offered a solution.
Removal
If you had read my post, instead of getting angry at straw men, you would have known that.
Any solution which does anything OTHER THAN REMOVING THEM will produce no lasting results?
Do you have a problem with that?
All Bennett’s plan does is concentrate them. It will NOT remove them.
Bennett’s plan will not work. It will aggravate the problem.
If you are intent on keeping the Arabs – which I find utterly amazing that you want to keep them – you are obliged to give them natural rights … civil rights, or else stop calling yourself a democracy.
The chief civil right is a say in the government which rules over their lives, their borders, their population registry. Governments which do not tender those rights are, by defintion, tyrannies.
The Arabs states – except for heavily Christian Lebanon – do not give those rights to the people. That is why the Arabs states are tyrannies.
Since Israel cannot safely give the Judean/Samarian Arabs civil rights, Israel must remove them or suffer being called a tyranny. It is that simple.
This is the weakness in Ted’s argument.
Even if say: The Arabs agreed that Israel is a Jewish state, and even if they accepted policed borders, Israel would still not allow the Abbas to allow immigration of their fellow refugees into areas A&B from Lebanon and Syria.
It would be madness for Israel to allow that.
In other words, the Judean/Samarian Arabs would have no control over anything. They would be nothing more than a local reservation with no external rights or even internal rights … except maybe to sell cigarettes without tax stamps, if even that.
But, even American and Canadian Indians have the right to vote in Federal elections, and the right of movement. Israel could not tender even that simple natural right to the Arabs.
Israel – in order to be safe – has to so severely circumscribe the rights of the Judean/Samarian Arabs – FOR SECURITY REASONS – that the Arabs would have no natural rights.
There is no way that Israel could make a reasonable offer, since any reasonable offer would be dangerous to give the Arabs.
There is really nothing Israel can offer the Arabs safely, so, no, the Arab lives would not improve if they negotiated, since Israel cannot safely give them anything.
That is the weakness in Ted’s point. Israel cannot make the Arabs a genuine offer without endangering Israel. There is no possible solution.
Therefore … There is only one solution left: Removal.
Martin (my preference) or Kahane?
You weigh in with your opinion.
Anything else is waste of time. Even Bennett’s proposal.
This is not prejudice, this is cold hard truth.
@ Ted Belman:
This is the ONLY solution.
Anything else is fluff.
Israel’s offers were NOT generous because Israel could not and cannot safely make generous offers with the Arabs. They are too dangerous.
Not even Rabin would have given the Arabs free unpoliced borders which are the sine qua non of statehood.
In other words, while claiming to work for a two-state solution, Israel could never safely offer the Arabs are real free state.
The whole thing was a charade.
I ADMIT THE ARABS WERE WORSE, but rather than addressing how bad the Arabs are – which is obvious – the idea is how to get Israel to be more effective.
Let’s start off with some basic truths
1) Israel cannot give the Arabs a real state with unpoliced borders.
2) Ergo, Israel was never seriously offering the Arabs a state
3) Ergo, the Arabs would never accept Israel’s offer even if the Arabs accepted a Jewish state, because the Arabs would insist on free borders
4) Ergo this was a total waste of time.
Pay them to leave or drive them out. These are your only two solutions.
Bennett’s solution is not addressing the issue.
A) If Bennett annexs C, it will still leave 2 Million Arabs in A&B.
B) They will be even more engraged.
C) Violence will occur
D) The world will turn on Israel more.
There is no stable solution apart from removal.
I prefer Martin’s ideas over Kahane.
Everything else is a waste of time.
Ted you like to talk about Israel’s rights.
1) Rights or not, will not solve the problem. Removal will.
2) Bennett’s partial annexation will not solve the problem. Removal will.
3) Glick’s annexation and enfranchisement actually would be in line with standard international practice. BUT IT WOULD BE SUICIDAL.
Were you dealing with Danes, I would prefer Glick’s solution. You are dealing with Arabs. So only Sherman’s or Kahane’s will work.
The only thing to discuss is whether by payment or force.
I agree with Martin.
But the only thing which will bring peace is removal.
The only thing to debate is whether Sherman or Kahane is the better method.
I agree with Martin.
Intro note:
For those who cannot read – I am recommending removal. It seems that only Ted reads my posts. The others react without analysis.
————
Ted, by citing 242 you admit some authority to the UN, which one should not do. One should not want to give the UN standing in this matter. Therefore appealing to 242 is a two-edge sword.
You do not want to use Res 242, here is why:
Res 242 allows Israel in the land but only under the limits of military ruler.
It may allow Israel to stay, but only under limited permissions. Until annexed, the land has to be held in trust, not settled.
Again, I have no problems with Jewish communities; but citing 242 as your authority puts Israel under the limits of an “occupier” since 242 assumes the land is not Israeli yet, and cannot be used for Israeli benefit.
First mistake! Since you know the Arabs are incapable of peace, the only solution is removal.
Where I disagree with most of the board is the means of removal.
Their basic demands: The right of return for Palestinians which would destroy Israel.
Israel’s basic demands: Control of the Jordan River Valley, and no open borders.
There is absolutely no common ground.
Israel would be foolish to give the Arabs an open border even if the Arabs recognized a Jewish state.
No leader of any country – even a rational country like Denmark – would agree to unfree borders. Israels offer would not be acceptable even to the Danes,
Basically both sides have positions which are so high that the other side will not agree.
This was a waste of time. The $100 billion lost could have paid 1 million Arabs to leave for somewhere else.
Admitting the Arabs are violent and nuts, Israel’s terms of no open borders would have been unagreeable, even to the Danes.
Just admit it. No solution was possible.
The Arabs are violent murders, but even the the peaceful Danes would not have agree to unfree border access.
They cannot have everything they want nor are they entitled to it. But they can better their position if they accept our terms.
I do not see how. If they agree to your terms, would you give them open borders? I would hope not.
As one Israeli said, the minimum an Arab could accept is far less that any Israeli could safely give.
This line of reasoning is going no where.
Remove them! Decide whether by payment or force.
See above. Since Israel will offer them nothing but autonony, not a real state, their condition will not improve.
I do not blame Israel for this. But I do think this charade should end.
Remove them, whether by payment or force.
Double talk. They have no vote in the government which rules over their borders. C’mon Ted.
Remove them. You cannot safely give them rights, so remove them.
48 years of this attitude has not brought peace.
Removing them would.
=================
To the rest here: Try and read what I write, rather than acting with knee-jerk response.
I am advocating removal. I am using logic to show that Israel’s offers do not address the issue.
Did any of you – apart from Ted – read my post
Here is what I wrote:
CuriousAmerican wrote:
If you had read my post, I noted that the ONLY ones who identified the problem were those who advocated getting rid of the Arabs.
I then went on to say:
Had you read that – rather than glancing at it – I was recommending that Israel get rid of the Arabs, and noticing that I only differed from the majority view here in the means of removal I recommend.
Yet, you howl as if I was saying the opposite.
mar55 wrote:
Yes, I have mar55, which is why I recommended removing them. Did you read my post, or just reply without thinking?
SHmuel HaLevi 2
I recommended removing them. Yet, you are mad at me?
Did you even read my post?!
Or do you react against some imaginary slight, which says more about you than me.
@ CuriousAmerican:
I believe that Ted has provided you with adequate information and more to satisfy your “curiosity” with reference to our Land of Israel and non negotiable rights therein.
And not to be left owing you Curious, here is my poem for you, not mine but borrowed from the Archiprieste de Hita, Spain, circa 1100…
A DIOS ROGANDO
E con el palo dando
That is our motto Curious.
Do not be concerned. I will not send you back to attend to your 400+ “Indian Reservations”, or to WACO, Texas, or to Watts, or Ferguson either. Not even to attend to your sovereign debt mounting by the hour and now over 18 trillion dollars. No Curious, do not worry about any of that, neither about the condition of the US military readiness profile.
We love you to pop here with your brilliant thoughts and assault us and our rights. After all, you solved all you own subjects in need of attention. Correct?
Now about that poem above…
The inserted hordes from Islam have two options. Either they leave with some form of compensation that we will consider and we alone or…
Be sent out by all means required.
Would you like to read about true history? Yes?
Curious, after the British tried to fabricate an ancestor for themselves, the PILTDOWN “man”, the grotesque fraud was found out. They intentionally attempted to defraud science and truth until the 50’s.
But it did not end there.
Having been found out, they simply shifted into creating “peoples” before running away from their Empire.
Their intent was to assuring that they could retain control by creating chaos and mayhem in their way out.
They did that in India, and nearby region. They did it in the Arabian peninsula and thereabout and of course here as well.
Enter the Jordanian “royal house” and the fabricated “pilestines”. Of course both are bogus just as PILTDOWN was. And they will end just as PILTDOWN ended… period.
As to the Abbas try at being in.
It failed and will never happen Curious.
And now something that will make you even happier.
You know of course about Arab Islamic construction in our Land is going full steam, illegally but not challenged. I can assure you that we know why… Why would we not send in the D9’s?
If you guess correctly you get a chupete… 🙂
@ CuriousAmerican:
In reply to an email I received, I wrote:
@ CuriousAmerican:
To Ted’s comment, I must add to your comment how many of this Arabs were Jordanian citizens and at some point since Jordan did not want them for the inconvenience that they might cost their kingdom took away their citizenship. That is right Curio, they disenfranchised their own citizens who for decades had been citizens of Jordan. The majority of their citizens and even their Majesty’s guards are Bedouins. Why on earth don’t you learn about the history of the region before you come here pontificating without knowing “jack”? of
what you are talking about. Haven’t you read numerous times and in different publications their statement saying that they do not want to negotiate. They want the total destruction of ISRAEL. Wiped out to take over what during their occupation of the region was nothing but an unproductive desert? Having you notice that if you read the news even without going deeply into it they have been destroying lives. Decapitating children and teaching their children to hate and even how to decapitate other people. To these savages is you want to give them land or authority over anything? I suggest you go where you can find valid information and read. Read a lot before you come here pontificating about what you know NOTHING about.
Since you find them so denied of everything consider joining the Jihadists in their crime wave. Gaza Khaled Mashaal honest? You most be kidding or, did you add some acid to your regular diet?
Go where you belong which is NOT here.
CuriousAmerican Said:
Sorry CA but you fail to factor in something even more fundamental.
We conquered the land.
Res 242 said we could stay in the territories until we had an agreement .
We didn’t promise them a rose garden.
We signed the Oslo Accords giving certain rights and control to the Arabs on the basis that they would not incite or be violent. Furthermore we agreed to negotiate certain final status issues but we had no obligation to give them what they want. At any time they could have cut a deal on our terms. But they refused. They cannot have everything they want nor are they entitled to it. But they can better their position if they accept our terms. But they refuse our terms so don’t better their condition. They are fully enfranchised within the confines of Oslo. They agreed to the terms. They must live by them. End of story. We owe them nothing.
Happy New Year Ted. May your fortunes be wonderful.
May you be healthy and prosperous.
In some ways, you are easy to figure out. Your generic platform is basically:From the River to the Sea:
Israeli Sovereignty.
From the Riv-er to the Sea
Is-Ra-El-I Sov er-eign-ty
A sort of Iambic pentameter
Any Israeli government action which works to that end, you approve. Any Israeli government action which diminishes that goal, you detest. This can, to the undiscerning, lead to some seemingly confusing opinions from you, as you do not hew to party lines; but once the reader discerns your singular focused goal – and its independence from party platforms – the formerly “inconsistent” opinions become quite consistent, almost predictable.
However, what you, and the strong Israeli right, never aqeduately address is the bull in the china shop, the elephant in the room.
Israel is faced with 2 Million, plus or minus, Arabs in Judea and Samaria. These Arabs have absolutely no say in the Israeli government which has ultimate control over their borders, their entrance, their exit, their population registry, their movement, etc. Essentially, these Arabs are in a second, or third-class, diminished status. Dare I say “dhimmi” status, regarding the state of Israel.
An Israeli arrested by the IDF in Judea and Samaria might not have full civil rights, but he is tried under a civil court, while a Judean/Samarian Arab arrested by Israeli forces is under military interrogation and prosecution. There is a hierarchy of status, and the Judean/Samarian Arab is clearly at the bottom.
Now, the key to a Republic – I have noted that you do not have a high opinion of democracy; neither did our American forefathers – the key to a Republic is direct representation, under constitutional limits. The Arabs in Judea and Samaria have no such representation, or any hope of acheiving such representation. They are essentially permanently disenfranchised. Albeit for security concerns, but disenfranchised nevertheless.
These Arabs in Judea and Samaria are the ulitmate problem. Not Oslo. Not annexiation. Not the UN. Not Obama. Not the EU.
The Israeli right wing confabulates all these wonderful maps, these glorious plans, these beautiful ideas on how to make a more Jewish, Jewish state; how to incorporate the empty spaces and redeem the land; how to become a light onto us Goyim from Zion.
But they never grapple with the elphant in the room: The 2 Million Arabs in Judea and Samaria. Oh! The right wing will annex area C, and will settle it with the Jewish people, and make it a central thriving part of the ever increasing Jewish Commonwealth.
But do they think the 2 million Arabs in Judea and Samaria will remain passive and content in this diminished status? That question is never addressed.
Some suggest that the Arabs in Areas A&B be given Jordanian citizenship. Wonderful! The only problem is: NO ONE ASKED JORDAN!
Jordan stopped giving citizenship to Judean/Samrian Arabs in 1988, and is actively removing citizenship from many Palestinians in their country, right now. Many of the Arabs in Judea/Samaria have roots in Jaffa, Haifa, and the coast. They have no connection to Jordan, and Jordan will not accept them.
The idea was wonderful – it looked good on paper – until it ran into reality.
Mordecai Kedar suggests breaking down the Arabs to eight clan based city-states, except that they won’t be city-states in as much as Israel will control their population registry, their movement, their borders. What they actually will be is concentrated clan-based reservations. If Dr. Kedar actually said that, it would not sound so nice. It would sound rather ugly. So he pretties it up with murky terminology – maybe in the hopes that fancy words will make it easier to hoodwink the Arabs.
Wonderful idea! Did Dr. Kedar ever ask the Judean/Samarian Arabs if they would agree with his spectacular plan?
If he did, I am sure he would find them most unamenable.
The Arabs are violent, irascible, and insane; but they are not stupid, a quality needed for Kedar to sell his plan to them.
There are those on the right who suggest that if the Arabs do not like it, they can leave.
To where? The other Arabs states will not accept them. The 1965 Casablanca Protocals prevent Arab states from assimilating them. Those who make that suggestion are either ignornant of that central fact or dishonest – which is typical of Israel’s ineffective hasbara.
The USA and the EU may take some of those Arabs, but not enought to prevent Arab population growth.
Some will say: We do not ask for Arab approval, we will just implement the plan.
Good for you! That has brought peace to Judea and Samaria for the last 48 years. Hasn’t it?
The Israeli right has done everything but address the bull in the china shop: You have two million Arabs in Judea and Samaria.
What will you do with them?
Israel cannot claim to be the ONLY DEMOCRACY IN THE MIDEAST while permanently denying the vote to 20% of the population under its direct control. Yes, the USA has non-citizen residents, but they have the option of taking citizenship. Jenin’s Arabs do not.
I am not even adding in the 1.8 Million in Gaza whose coastline is blockaded by the Israeli navy, which is very much a sort of control. Adding them in, 33% of the population Israel has control over are NOT enfranchised.
This is Israel’s ONLY PROBLEM, and until you address it, all your theories are just that: theories, and nothing more.
Only two Jewish intellectuals have squarely identified and faced the problem honestly:
Martin Sherman who suggested Compensated Reimbursement to Leave (Paying them enough to go, and enough that other Arab states would overlook the Casablanca Protocols to take them in. Or failing that, South America might take them in.) It will not be cheap.
Meir Kahane who suggested ethnic cleansing [Let’s be honest. He suggested ethnic cleansing]
Yes, Jews were ethnically cleased in the 1950s. But counter-ethnic-cleansing is still ethnic cleansing.
I am more favorable to Sherman’s idea. Kahane’s solution will finalize Israel’s pariah status. Most of the others here prefer Kahane’s solution.
But inspite of their different solutions, Sherman and Kahane at least identified and addressed the problem rightly.
Everything else is sheep dip. Everything else is delusional speculation until you address the elephant in the room.
Until you tell me how Israel is going to stop avoiding the problem with ridiculous plans that will only provoke more violence from the Arabs, and finally deal with the Arabs in Judea and Samaria [and possibly Gaza], every suggestion you make is fanciful fluff.
In this, the Arabs have more clarity than Israel. The Arab are violent, hateful, vicious, and insane; but the Arabs do not mince words concerning what their solutions are.
If Israel’s politicians were as honest as Gaza’s Khaled Mashaal, then something might be done,
One State.
Eretz Israel as it has been for thousands of years. Rome set in place its paws to deny our rights and the Empire successors assumed Rome’s role since. Nothing doing. All foreign and internal enemies attempts to partition our Land must be rejected forcefully.
Only the Jewish people in Eretz Israel and faithful residents have the right to live within our ancestral geographical borders.
One State. Eretz Israel.
I hope in2015 we can FINAlLY stop using the word Peace Process, and acknowledge it for what it is, Israel in Pieces process. Face reality and stop the discussion already, how much evidence, how many Israeli deaths, now many wars will it take for Jews and Jewish leaders to finally admit reality.
And, while I am at it, can we also STOP using the word, Palestinians. These folks are Arabs who are claiming Israel for themselves. The true and only Palestinians are the Jewish people, and the only true and only Palestine is Israel. We stopped using the terms, Wandering Jew, West Bank, Wailing Wal, Giving back (should be giving away)l. By using certain words we are giving them OUR legitimacy.
And finally, will N and any other political leader finally STOP travelling to speak with the leaders of Europe, the Vatican, the US, the UN; begging for these Jew-haters to do the right thing; it shames the Jewish people. Enough. Demand that who vote against Israel do the explaining to THEIR people.