T. Belman. If this is legal, the law is an ass. The only justification of torture is to save lives which are imminently in peril. No such thing was happening here. There was no justification for this torture.
The prosecution has no evidence that the two Jewish defendants have any connection to this crime. They have confessions which the Shabak admits it obtained after mercilessly torturing those young Jewish boys for two weeks.
What is currently happening in Israel is inconceivable. The Jewish world is silent as two Jewish boys have been brutally tortured and subsequently incarcerated for over two years.
I am referring to the so-called “Duma affair”. I will not delve into the legal aspects of this case. The evidence for the defendants’ guilt is perceived as fictitious and baseless by many.. I will instead focus on the human dimension…. on the severe, unrelenting pain of parents and children who are tormented by unspeakable and intractable human suffering.
There are many signs indicating that the arson in Duma, in which 3 Arabs of the Abu Dawabsha clan were killed, was the result of an internal Arab dispute within the Dawabsha clan. Additional cases of arson occurred in Duma after this case, where the unanimous consensus of Israeli police and army was that the fires were started by Arabs of the town. A calligraphic analysis of an anti-Arab Hebrew slogan found in Duma indicates that it was written by Arabic speakers …
From a legal perspective, the prosecution has no evidence that the two Jewish defendants have any connection to this crime. The only “evidence” they have are confessions which the Jewish section of the Shabak obtained after mercilessly torturing 16 year old Elisha O. and 18 year old Amiram Ben Uliel for two weeks. Unbelievably, the Shabak committed these acts with the imprimatur of the highest levels of government, starting from the office of the Prime Minister, the office of the Attorney General, the police and the head of the Shabak.
I would like to focus on the harsh tortures suffered by several Jewish youths, the majority of whom were released without charge, while two others have been languishing in jail now for over two years. The courts are now weighing whether their confessions can legally be used to convict them even though the prosecution admits that these confessions were obtained under severe torture.
One of those interrogated boys testified that the Shabak interrogators placed him on a low chair with no backrest, shackled to a chair, with his legs bent back and tied to a chair. The interrogators then forcibly bent his back until his head touched the floor and his back formed an “opposite arc”. They held him in this position for several entire nights. The pain caused by this torture was unbearable. The interrogators screamed in his face that if he wanted to be freed, he must confess to the arson and crimes they accused him of.
The torture lasted for two weeks. It included prolonged sleep deprivation, slapping, beatings, curses, threats, being tied into impossible body positions which caused excruciating pain and fainting.
One of those interrogated boys testified that an interrogator beat his stomach while another interrogator threw his head back until a doctor had to be called.
Another time, one of the boys was shackled with his feet to a chair, his hands cuffed behind him. The interrogators raised his hands back until they formed a 90-degree angle with his back, thus stopping the flow of blood into his hands. The boy, then 17 years of age, felt numbness and freezing cold in his hands due to the cessation of the blood flow. Then the interrogators gave him an electric shock and he felt his hands burning with terrible pain. The shock was so strong that the boy was thrown to the ground.
There are other terrible and horrific testimonies that I will not describe here. The two boys were eventually willing to say anything to stop the suffering, the pain, and the agony. One of the boys, Elisha O., who was a mere 16, tried to commit suicide. He begged the torturers to tell him what they wanted him to admit. He said he would admit to anything to make them stop – even the assassination of Rabin, the murder of John Kennedy or the murder of Arlozoroff.
It was reported that during a closed-door trial, one of the defendants asked his parents to leave the hall when he was called to testify. He did not want his tormented parents to hear about his harsh suffering.
For over two years, caring and moral individuals have tried to knock on the doors of Members of Knesset, politicians, members of the judiciary, journalists, spiritual leaders … to no avail. Today, two families whose sons have been detained in inhumane conditions for more than two years remain alone.
Where are the voices of the Institute for Democracy, the Council for Child Welfare, the Association for Civil Rights and the Rabbis of Israel?
Imagine the scale of the suffering and the intensity of the worry. Try to imagine how you would feel if your child was tortured and imprisoned and you were helpless to help him. Inconceivable. Unbearable. Suffering beyond the pale.
In order to justify the use of “special measures” (harsh torture), the interrogators claimed that this was a “investigation of necessity” (to prevent future terrorist activity). This claim was totally unfounded and fictional.
And recently, the prosecution requested that the court “recognize torture as lawful” – an unprecedented request in the State of Israel. This is a continuation of the State Attorney’s Office’s attempt to convince the justices that despite the use of torture, the confessions were given “willingly” and are legally admissible. They furthermore wrote that the torture was conducted “while maintaining the defendants’ dignity (!)” Is it possible to grasp the magnitude of this absurdity?
I do not know the outcome of the trial, but can only pray that at last, Elisha O. and Amiram Ben Uliel will be treated with justice. What is clear is that the harsh torture of two Jewish boys must be thoroughly investigated. The heart and mind do not tolerate that the Jewish state treats Jewish boys where there is no clear evidence of guilt in a manner that is harsher than they treat Arab terrorists whose bloody hands are held up for all to see.
@ Sebastien Zorn:
I’m sure you did..No doubt at all. As to “why” ..?? I have no idea, as I con’t read your mind.
@ Edgar G.:
Another Brezhnevist, I see.
Gesundheit.
@ Edgar G.:
Tell it to Herr Hitler.
Images – The Military, Foreign Policy, and War
Cheering Austrians Greet Adolf Hitler in his Hometown of Braunau am Inn (March 12, 1938)
http://ghdi.ghi-dc.org/sub_image.cfm?image_id=1989
@ Edgar G.:
Yes, I said that. He was nothing like Von Clausewitz or Metternich whom you lumped him together with.
@ Edgar G.:
I read them all when I was a kid. Why?
@ Sebastien Zorn:
D’Israeli, according to all accounts, (I have a couple of biographies) was an essentially romantic character in himself, It can be traced in what he says, does, has written and proposed to do in his very varied life. For instance in that he invented famous forebears for himself, “Vivian Grey” and “Contarini Fleming” are amongst other examples. His dress extravagance and his manners towards the female sex, are other indications.
Romanticist as he was, he made Victoria an Empress. For Victoria he was HER Prime Minister and she “could never abide that man” Gladstone.This was one of the attractions that he had for Queen Victoria.
@ Sebastien Zorn:
Of course, and I’m sure you have understood this from the beginning of this futile, partially coursing discussion, that, the reverse is also true with basically the same meaning (when not splitting hairs)…a kind of textual palindrome.
A question, do you like the Sherlock Holmes character….?
@ Sebastien Zorn:
May I suggest a board certified degree swathed gentleman who is qualified to untangle your confused thoughts, because I see you are stuttering. You should not “think for me” I’m amply capable in that direction, thinking for MYSELF of course, not for you.
Perhaps if you explain in words of 3 letters or less, I might be able to understand your undoubted accurate meaning. I don’t know what you are trying to DRIVE through my skull, but i can tell you now that you won’t succeed.
Metternich was a little before Clausewitz and certainly The Congress of Vienna, (late 1814-mid 1815) where he uttered his “immortal” -and thousands more, during the 7-8 months the Congress lasted. It ended at least about 15 years before Clausewitz began to write on military theory. Tallyrand was born and was active at least 20 years before either of them. And, as I said earlier, Clausewitz and Metternich were likely not the first, perhaps by thousands of years, to have made a similar comment.
17th century Gustav Adolf and Wallenstein both adhered to the same goals although using different words.
@ Sebastien Zorn:
Well, let me be a little picky in return. Austrians are not “exactly Germans”. . Austria has been a country for many centuries before Germany was,_(and please do NOT go back to Caesar’s Gallic Wars) It was when the Hapsburgs came to power, And they are intermingled to a certain degree with Hungarians. For example Berlin and Vienna are as different as chalk from cheese. The Austrians are light-hearted and full of music and romance, the Germans are dour, obedient and obsessed with the “peaked cap and brass button” syndrome (Jerome K. Jerome-“Three men on the Bummel”.)
Generally speaking only of course. I haven’t looked it up on google.
@ Edgar G.:You are just repeating the point I refuted. That is not what he means, or I suspect, what you mean, either, since you cited Metternich who agrees with him. Frankly, I’m not sure what you are trying to say. I doubt I am alone.
Why don’t you just restate your point in a different way.
@ Edgar G.:You are just repeating the point I refuted. That is not what he means, or I suspect, what you mean, either, since you cited Metternich. Frankly, I’m not sure what you mean.
Sorry, double comment came up and I erased it.
@ Sebastien Zorn:
I said that “Politics in only a “furthering” (emphasis) of WAR by other means”. So stop twisting my comment. Neither of us says essentially the same thing, in exactly the same terminology. You would have done well in Talmudic days when
“splitting hairs” could occupy the over-active mind, into an all consuming obsession.
And of course I do no instantly recourse to the internet, which you, with your nimble fingers, play on like a Wurlitzer. I give MY OWN recollections and words, and of course cannot compete with yours, culled from the vast internet selection at your fingertips.
You quote scenes from MOVIES for goodness sake, to bolster your assertions.
I do not want top get into the politics (or war) of cut&paste.
And please don’t ask me for a link, a proof, a pint of blood,……This is a site for serious people.
Remember the piece in Kohelet, that “There is nothing new under the sun”, and let that suffice for the answer as to who said what, when, where, how, and who said it first, because likely it goes back into far antiquity and cannot be pinned to the first utterance which was likely in a language which had 25 meanings for each word. It’s not worth a cut and paste competition.
This may also fit to the person,
Parnoid
Paranoia refers to the perception or suspicion that others have hostile or aggressive motives in interacting with them (for example, “they are out to get me”), when in fact there is no reason for these suspicions. People experiencing paranoia believe that others are persecuting them and have delusional ideas about themselves as central figures in scenarios that in reality have little relevance to them.
Again this is a possibility. A Professional would need to examine in person to know and make a determination.
@ Bear Klein:
Are you clinically trained and board certified in this field?
@ Sebastien Zorn:
There is a distinct possibility that one of the posters could be psychotic in my view and not for purposes of insult.
@ Bear Klein:
That’s called rambling and every student who hadn’t read Strunk and White Elements of Style whose paper I graded would be labeled psychotic then.
Also, recall, people are not just posting publicly in order to be read by the poster being responded to. Every commenter here and on every site could be described as a micro-columnist.
Also not accurate. This definition I found just from googling it covers it nicely:
“psy·cho·sis
noun
a severe mental disorder in which thought and emotions are so impaired that contact is lost with external reality.”
Surely, you don’t think anyone who has posted here could be described thus. Except, perhaps, for purposes of insult.
@ Sebastien Zorn:
Psychosis can be exhibited by:
Disorganized Speech or Behaviour
Examples of disorganized speech include:
slipping off topic
going off on tangent
answering a question in a way that doesn’t make sense to the other person
talking about things that seemed unrelated to the conversation
@ Edgar G.:
Yes, Metternich is offering the same sentiment. Germans (Austrians are Germans).
Germans. Von Clausewitz’s quote reminds me of this scene from “Judgement at Nuremberg.”
Judgment at Nuremberg 1961: “It’s Not The Killing [that’s the problem, it’s the disposing of the bodies that’s the problem]…”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=187tCWVzAFo
@ Sebastien Zorn:
Correction: “War is a continuation of policy by other means” is the accurate quotation. He is just saying that war is just as much another tool of statecraft as legislation as opposed to something to get all romantic or horrified about*. He is not making some grand Hobbesian philosophical statement about all political endeavor being sublimated warfare.
*as opposed to say Disraeli who wrote of war as something terrible and while at times unavoidable, ideally to be avoided:
“But this principle of race is unfortunately one of the reasons why I fear war may always exist; because race implies difference, difference implies superiority, and superiority leads to predominance.”
“Speech in the House of Commons (1 February 1849).”
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Disraeli
Von Clauswitz is saying war is no big deal, it’s just one of the tools at government’s disposal, not substantively different from legislation or peacetime policy-making, nothing to shrink from, on the one hand, or romanticize, on the other. It’s just about cost benefit analysis. So what, if it happens to be violent and lots of people die. Just a detail, you know?
@ Felix Quigley:
That article is from three years ago. Her department just re-opened the investigation. Maybe three years ago, she didn’t have enough power to go up against the Shin Bet. Look at all the necessary and positive structural changes she has effected since then. Three years ago, people calling for sovereignty were a fringe. It has since become mainstream, and only Netanyahu and maybe Kahlon, he did before, are blocking it. Thanks to her.
@ Edgar G.:
You seriously believe that Von Clauswitz’s (and not Disraeli’s, if you google Disraeli on the subject, you will see that he romanticized war) “War is policy by other means” has the same meaning as your “Politics is war by other means?”
@ Felix Quigley:
That very thing struck me as being a lot more than naive. They obviously would be the ones who would assure her that everything was according to law, since it was they who were inventing and implementing and permitting it. I thought she was more canny than that. As it will all come out now, she will realise that she had been duped. As was Bennett.
The criminals here are the Attorney General, Ya’alon especially, Even more than the Shin Bet head who does all this as a normal way of carrying out his “duty”.
Disappointing. I thought she was the “bees-knees” when it came to logic and intelligent interpretation of information.
THE OLD FALSE MOVE OF FALLING AT THE LAST DITCH
There was something weird about the video that Yaalon brought into the Knesset. Groups such as that (anarchist a little in outlook perhaps? I have no idea!) are always very problematic as to what comes out because if you are a special branch anywhere (N Ireland was the laboratory for this kind of “modern” activity) that is the very first place you put your agent provocateurs. The video and in general the visual media are all very problematic at any time, we learned this in Yugoslavia, because they are so easy to falsify, pictures even worse, then videos of pictures and so on.
Yaalon really whipped up the feeling. He was obviously working with the police.
I have always noticed and it applied very much to trade union leaders that it was always the most militant looking guy who was leading the workers who would bring the workers to the final ditch as it were, and then would betray at the last moment. Bennett and Mrs Shaked are in that category if I translate this to nation politics. With these types of politician you have to double study their utterances because they are the ones who will at the last ditch (just before the dash to the line in the Grand National) cause the big fall, and you lose all your money. There is such a divide between those leaders who will go all the way and those who have a chink in their armour and will (maybe even sub consciously) let you down and betray.
It seemed to me to work out like this in this case. A lot of people were looking at her and Bennett. AS IS NORMAL IN THESE CASES! They went through the motions. Then Mrs Shaked stuck the knife in. As the report below makes clear, at least to me.
That would not stop me supporting her on issues or defending her (I wanted Netanyahu to defeat Labour in the last election and thought it very important he won), but if I was involved in a party and sadly do not have one, I would above all maintain my independence, and never ever liquidate my politics into that sort of politician or movement. I think Martin is in somewhere the same mentality. Yesterday I was watching on this theme a very important video presented on facebook…rectifying the narrative.
Extract from the report…I am not even sure what “law” Yaalon is rambling on about, is it the “law of torturing jewish youth, that is youth being grandchildren of those gassed by the Nazis”…you know THAT law.
“It was important to broadcast the video released this week in which extremist youths are shown celebrating the Duma murder, Ya’alon said, because it convinced many of those who doubted that the arson was an act of Jewish terror.
“When the Prime Minister brought this video to the cabinet a week ago, we saw the shock in the eyes of those who had doubts about whether the ISA tortures suspects or not. A law is a law, with no ifs or buts,” he said.
“I see a direct link between non-compliance with the rule of law and the fact that, ultimately, irresponsible young people take the law into their own hands, burn a family intentionally, and later celebrate in this disgraceful manner,” Ya’alon added. “We have Jewish terrorism here, I call it terrorism from the start. Terror is terror is terror, whether it is carried out by Arabs or Jews. We must take measures against this.”
Shaked later responded and strongly rejected Ya’alon’s criticism of her party.
“I regret the fact that there are some trying to make a political gain in this situation,” Shaked told Channel 2. “[Jewish Home chairman Naftali] Bennett was the first leader from the right who stood up [against Jewish terrorism] in the most decisive manner. I have a post from July 2013 in which Bennett wrote that ‘price tag is immoral and not Jewish’.
“Do not try to stain the religious Zionist movement, an entire community that serves and contributes to society, because of a group of terrorist anarchists who Bogie knows are outlaws who do not listen to rabbinical and educational authority,” added the Minister of Justice.
Shaked rejected the criticism that was leveled against her when she met with relatives of the Duma detainees following reports that the detainees were severely abused, before she concluded that the investigations were conducted in compliance with the law.
“As Justice Minister, if someone comes to me with complaints about rights being violated during an interrogation, it is my duty to look into it. I checked with the Attorney General and the head of the Shin Bet and saw that everything was done according to law,” she said.
“If Palestinians were to come to me and ask me, I would certainly also investigate. I spoke with the Attorney General and I saw that everything was done according to the law and was supervised by the legal system,” added Shaked.”
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/205505
PS You will notice at the end the equivalence she has between the “Palestinians” and the Jews. THAT is the problem right there with Mrs Shaked and Bennett. Perhaps some Jewish wag will write up a play on Mrs Shaked called “And I checked with the Attorney General and Shin Bet….”
@ Sebastien Zorn:
The “dictum” being reversed as you say, doesn’t mean a thing, and I’m surprised that you would think it neccessary to devote a whole lengthy post to it. I certainly have come across it said by other famous people of the past, in their own words. But they all mean the same thing.
I believe I recall a comment by a European statesman that “when the political agreement can go no further then it’s continuation is usually by war” It may have been Metternich. I’m a bit hazy on these obscure remarks from th dim distant past. so apologies in advance..
I think I first came across it when I was 17-18 years old… a very long time ago. I had a book on saying by well known people, for instance like Oscar Wilde, G B Shaw, Boney, Disraeli, even Gladstone and many others. Churchill, Lady Astor, (his nemesis) Tallyrand actually, in his 18th century style discussed something similar to the Clausewitz observation, when the potential independence of Sicily was the subject.between him and the British Minister (at the time) Charles James Fox.
@ Bear Klein:
So, would you apply that Brezhnevist diagnosis to Moses Hess when he published the first Zionist manifesto 35 years before anybody was ready to be receptive? Is it crazy to be unpopular?
@ Edgar G.:
You have the author right but the dictum reversed.
“This chapter contains Clausewitz’s most famous saying about war, that it is the continuation of politics (policy) by other means. Here is the passage in full:
24. WAR IS A MERE CONTINUATION OF POLICY BY OTHER MEANS.
We see, therefore, that War is not merely a political act, but also a real political instrument, a continuation of political commerce, a carrying out of the same by other means. All beyond this which is strictly peculiar to War relates merely to the peculiar nature of the means which it uses. That the tendencies and views of policy shall not be incompatible with these means, the Art of War in general and the Commander in each particular case may demand, and this claim is truly not a trifling one. But however powerfully this may react on political views in particular cases, still it must always be regarded as only a modification of them; for the political view is the object, War is the means, and the means must always include the object in our conception…”
http://oll.libertyfund.org/pages/clausewitz-war-as-politics-by-other-means
@ Bear Klein:
Well;;;;Yes, thank you. There are actually 2 1/2 people on this site to whom that could apply, although only one is present at the moment. Let’s say one… plus one veering….
One thing ….”Politics in only a furthering of WAR by a different means”. which was Clausewitz. And maybe perhaps D’Israeli using different words.. .And I think something like that came up at one of the Congresses which were held during the Napoleonic Wars, Maybe at Vienna, Not sure just guessing. But in different eras it was pretty much accepted, whatever the terminology..
@ Edgar G.:
Clue it is not you. It should be obvious who it is.
@ Felix Quigley:
Just one observation Felix. I do not see how you can say that Shaked is working against the good of the people. This could not be true, just as Netanyahu and Bennett are not working against the same good. They have risked their lives many times, fought militarily and lost blood and relatives for the good of the state. So Felix, come on…
@ Edgar G.:
Apropos of nothing, your comment reminds me of my wry observation to an inconsolable chap who’d just been given the proverbial heave-ho, “When a woman tells you, ‘It’s not you, it’s me,” rest assured, it’s you. Though in this case it’s obviously Felix. Felix the trot, not Felix the cst.
@ Bear Klein:
Why be so coy about it. This is “Free Speech Zone”. Otherwise i’ll be wondering…WHO COULD IT BE (shades of Jackie Mason) .”Did he mean ME Then I’ll be feeling all over my body to ensure that every part is in the right place,…Which reminds me of a sudden joke that a meek and mild cousin told me as we were cycling along a winding road,on the road to go fishing at Cobh, the sea port of Cork City Ireland. I was lucky that no traffic was approaching, I wobbled all over the road, helplessly.
@Felix Quigley:
“There was systematic political abuse of psychiatry in the Soviet Union,[1] based on the interpretation of political opposition or dissent as a psychiatric problem.[2] It was called “psychopathological mechanisms” of dissent.[3]
‘During the leadership of General Secretary Leonid Brezhnev, psychiatry was used to disable and remove from society political opponents (“dissidents”) who openly expressed beliefs that contradicted the official dogma…
‘Article 58-10 of the Stalin-era Criminal Code, “Anti-Soviet agitation”, was to a considerable degree preserved in the new 1958 RSFSR Criminal Code as Article 70 “Anti-Soviet agitation and propaganda”. In 1967, a weaker law, Article 190-1 “Dissemination of fabrications known to be false, which defame the Soviet political and social system”, was added to the RSFSR Criminal Code. These laws were frequently applied in conjunction with the system of diagnosis for mental illness, developed by Academician Andrei Snezhnevsky. Together they established a framework within which non-standard beliefs could easily be defined as a criminal offence and the basis, subsequently, for a psychiatric diagnosis.[7]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_in_the_Soviet_Union
One poster here exhibits some of the following:
Signs Of Early Or First-Episode Psychosis
Determining exactly when the first episode of psychosis begins can be hard, but these signs and symptoms strongly indicate an episode of psychosis:
Hearing, seeing, tasting or believing things that others don’t
Persistent, unusual thoughts or beliefs that can’t be set aside regardless of what others believe
Shaked investigated it in 2015, what happened? she needs to be queried in public Q&A sessions.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/shaked-met-with-duma-suspect-s-mother-1.5381858
Oh, sorry, and thanks to Yamit82 for posting
http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Israel-opens-brutality-probe-against-Shin-Bet-security-service-540404
Feb 1 this year. Shaked is, as ever, on the ball. I guess she can only be in so many places at once.
The Left controls the repressive apparatus and the right in office conforms out of fear for their own hides, e.g., Sharon, Olmert, Bennett. With no evidence at all, Bennett joined the chorus of baying wolves and put himself at the head of the pack calling for the persecution of these kids and creating a witchhunt atmosphere:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/bennett-authorities-looking-at-one-or-two-rabbis-who-helped-radicalize-hilltop-youth/
@ Felix Quigley:
FELIX- You are bringing out into the open some very sensitive things that show up how badly the Israeli social structure is fractured. It seems to have the 3 monkeys syndrome, which allows certain cruel, insensitive, psychotics to run riot, but with innocent Jewish kids, instead of against guilty Arabs where their sadistic practices would really pay off in better safety for Israel.
I don’t see where it matters about left-right in Israel over this particular problem. How does it apply, and why should it be brought up. It is simply what I have stated above. A ruthless group of semi-assassins have been allowed to give free rein to their most rabid animal-like penchants….and with innocent Jewish kids….
AND NOBODY IN GOVERNMENT EVEN SAYS A THING ABOUT IT…NOT EVEN A LOW WHISPER.
Do we have an Israel style KGB lurking in the cesspits of Israel,our Holy Land. The Land of Milk and Honey…….that we prayed to return to for thousands of years,…..?????. We just finished Pesach with “HaShana HaBah BeYerudhalayim”
But not to return to the 2 year incommunicado torturing of innocent Jewish minor children.. Israel. with
“THE MOST MORAL ARMY IN THE WORLD…..”..
The Israeli police persecute and even torture innocent Israeli citizens, while going easy on Arab terrorists. And they commit these serious violations of human rights with the full support of the Israeli supreme court and attorney general, This is because they are Arab sympathizers who raged Israeli society as “racist” and think that Israel is the guilty party, and the Palestinian Arabs the wronged party, in the Arab-Israeli dispute. Israel is in deep trouble when these unpatriotic “leftists” run the government, and under current law cannot even be fired. God help Israel-and I mean that very literally.
@ Felix Quigley:
Marx was right when he wrote that to communicate, one must refer to groups and tendencies by the names they call themselves and by which they are generally known. In Israel, Left means pro-Arab. Right means pri-Jewish. The traditional right supports a generous safety net This should be obvious from a cursory reading of the political debates played out in the Israeli press online.
i am an ex-Stalinist, an ex-Anarchist Communist, an ex- Leninist who didn’t take sides between Stalin and Trotsky, in high school I was a social-democrat and before that a liberal, none of which is.relevant now. I am just a Zionist.Period.
Very good indeed! But I do not think they are inactive, Shaked and company are not inactive but plotting against the needs of the Israeli people.
“This coalition of inactivists also include the civilian bureaucracies and Israel’s intelligence and police communities . The Prime Minister and Cabinet do not have the power either to appoint or dismiss the real decision makers who control the IDF either directly or indirectly. Hence the “political echelon” also lacks the power to order decisive action by the iDF.” (Adam Dalgliesh)
POLITICS IS WAR
politics is war and war is politics
It is in the interest of the career bureaucrat dressed up as an IDF leader to look after his career niche but Israel will MEANWHILE go down the drain.
Who is responsible? The present Cabinet and all Cabinets from Ben Gurion down.
It is the difference between revolutionary government and profit mongering parliamentary democracy. Note I am not throwing parlaiment out nor democracy.
But be aware this is where it leads.
The problem is not giving autonomy to the Army leadership. But the army leadership!
Ask what did Leon Trotsky do in a very similar situation. Situation Civil War 1918…22…he was a political leader first and last and he knew nor pretended to know anything about warfare.
But his political vision was revolutionary and totally political. His mind was able to encompass very many differing data areas, both national and international. And develop a synthesis.
He was based on a mentality that would use the highest level of culture in all senses of that word.
And consider his solution for which he was criticised then by the proto Stalinists. He took on board the old Czarist officer cadre, that is of the Czarist army.
As Martin keeps repeating, it is in Israel the political vision that lags behind.
Can Netanyahu, Bennett or Shaked do this…I think not because I do not believe they are revolutionary people and have little backbone.
I am not starting in this from what is available on the surface but from what is needed.
Behind the decision of Trotsky to base his war, fighting on the experience of Czarist officers, required what? Certainly NOT DOGMA.
I hope Martin reads this. It was the quality that distinguished Trotsky all of his life.
I would say that dogma is the great curse of Israeli leadership today.
Political consciousness in Israel is lagging behind events. As Martin asserts the action in Gaza is one of total war and time for Israel and Israelis very limited.
@ yamit82:
I pity you you poor old sod you!
@ Felix Quigley:
You continue to comment and interject your commie Trotsky crap in all comments…. you have no clue and never will ,,you are incapable of understanding our situation or anything to do with Jews and israel!! Stick to your commie crap with like minded zombies all 2 of them in the world…..
ISRAEL OPENS BRUTALITY PROBE AGAINST SHIN BET SECURITY SERVICE
It marks the first time that an investigation has been opened since the Justice Ministry established a unit called Mivtan about 18 years ago.
Is Sebastien Zorn on Israpundit a Stalinist? it is known that he was involved with “groups” in America. We have witness on Israpundit of the severe neurosis of Zorn towards Trotsky and Trotskyism and he never retracted one word, which had its origin in Stalinism.
In fact in this situation of the torturing of Jewish youth Zorn deflects into a left/right rigmarole and the misuse of these terms in the Israeli context is opposed by many, but only by me consistently. I have never let go of this misuse.
This is the Jewish Homeland we are talking about. Jewish youth, from the hillsides or wherever, have a right to celebrate their Jewishness in whatever way they see fit.
In fact this case always went to the very heart of the Israeli ruling capitalist class of our times.
The talk of left and right as put forward by Zorn is a great big fat distortion. Leon Trotsky was taking the same position (according to reputable historian Joseph Nedava) as Jabotinsky in the 1930s, and the position of Ben Gurion was treacherous.
These youth are not left, not right, they are on a different plane, they are into Jewish nationalism, and nationalism including Catalan nationalism as well as Jewish nationalism is a very progressive thing.
Everything else is a distortion.
Perhaps I am unkind but there seems to be an absence of real proposals as to what to be done in this case. What can and should be done? The arrest of Yaalon and others. The dismissal of the whole of the Israeli Government. A new election called on this issue.
@ Sebastien Zorn:
You immediately go into left/right mode but what has this to do with right and left?
Therein lies the real distortion and it is propagated by YOU
I hope this is not true. If it is true it is horrific.
I’ve posted about this before. Liberals who remain silent about this while pontificating about how torture is counter-productive and inhumane when practiced on actual jihadist terrrorists are disgusting hypocrites. They are always demanding the right to be critical of Israel from the Left, i.e., pro-
Arab, will they support the same right from the right, i.e. pro Jewish? Dershowitz has shown he can blow either way, and he has the public podium. He should really be asked to take a position on this publicly. Now.
Terrorist Arabs are treated better then this. What is wrong with the Israeli government? And that includes Netanyahu.
I had no idea that these 2 boys were in jail all of this time. This incident more than any other in Israel’s modern history will be forever a bloody, permanent stain. Israeli citizens need to protest loudly about this and get these boys home ASAP! Thanks so much for posting this Ted!