My very good friend from Toronto, Salomon Benzimra, wrote THE JEWS: A PEOPLE, A NATION, A STATE in 2006. Specifically he highlighted the ingredients of nationhood and the requirements of citizenship within the democratic model. A brilliant essay and a must read. Ted Belman
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Being a citizen of the Jewish State of Israel is not a right to which its entire population is entitled: it is a privilege that should only be bestowed to those who accept the responsibilities inherent to citizenship.
[..]
On the other hand, the state must also embrace democratic principles not only because democracy is the widely accepted norm or advanced societies but because the democratic principles of equality, liberty and justice are embedded in Jewish thought. However, there is a difference between the people and the population. The people in a democratic nation-state are all citizens, as sharing in the sovereign power. For the Arab population to share sovereign power in the state, they must first become citizens, that is embrace the common goals and spiritual principles of the founding nation. If not, this segment of the population is reduced to subjects or residents living under the laws of the state but deprived of any sovereign power. The question of democracy is therefore closely linked to the criteria of citizenship.
Conferring the privilege of citizenship to the Arab population living in Israel should be done through an oath of allegiance to the State. I suppose many of the Arabs presently living in Israel would not object to swear allegiance. But the growing Islamist groups within Israel would refuse any such allegiance to the State, since they are committed to the destruction of the Jewish State of Israel and its replacement by an Islamic entity ruled by Muslims. Their opposition to Israel was made quite clear last week when Ibrahim Sarsur, who heads the southern Israel Islamic Movement, said: “The Judaization of the state threatens us. But we want to be Israelis in the civil sense of the word.” Here is an Arab Israeli, who is presently a “citizen” of the state (because of the unfortunate laws of citizenship currently in force in Israel), and who does not understand the nature of the Jewish State of Israel. And that is why he wants to be “Israeli in the civil sense of the word”, because in his mind, already deeply confused by the nature of theocratic Islamic states, he believes that Israel is also a religious state based on Judaism, rather than a nation-state centered on the Jewish people.
People harboring such views should not be citizens of Israel. Neither should be citizens those secular Arabs — such as Ahmed Tibi and Azmi Bishara, both MK at the Knesset — whose main purpose seems to be the destruction of the state in what can only be defined as sedition. In the same way, the Neturei Karta and other secular, rabid anti-Zionist Jews should have their citizenship revoked and not partake in the political life of the country.
Being a citizen of the Jewish State of Israel is not a right to which its entire population is entitled: it is a privilege that should only be bestowed to those who accept the responsibilities inherent to citizenship.
Nothing in the above is anti-democratic. Israel, as a nation-state, is entitled to formulate laws that protect its unique character. The Canadian province of Quebec does the same by promulgating its French language laws; Switzerland too has its own restrictive citizenship laws. All the ruckus about “Israeli apartheid” emanates from groups intent on the destruction of Israel. In Europe, there is another anti-Israel dimension fuelled by their distaste for nation-states, following their endless succession of bloody wars in past centuries. But as long as any people is accepted by the community of nations to live and flourish in their own land, the State of Israel should not be apologetic, it should stand tall, and be rightly proud of its outstanding achievements under uncommon hardship.
@ yamit82:
Thanks for the info, I sent it to my “yids list”. Of the members of this list only one has two Jewish parent and only one is relious. Proof of your arguement.
Have a good week-end.
Salomon Benzimra Said:
I said not a people based on the definition you submitted, I didn’t say the Jews were not a people.
Not at all!
The Seven Wonders of Jewish History
‘Vehi Sheamda’
“Judaism, being a religion, is not an independent nationality.”
Judaism is an ideology encompassing nationhood and the dilineation of a people. Of course the PLO charter would be designed to “negate” the very obvioius peoplehood/nationhood of the Jew as defined in Judaism: they refuse to recognize Israel as even existing in the Middle East. No surprise there. Why would you even bring up this insidious document? You are giving it credence simply by mentioning it. I would use it for toilet paper.
“Behold! It is a nation that will dwell in solitude and not be reckoned among the nations.”(Num. 23:9) and (Lev. 20:26), “I have separated you from the nations,”
My point exactly, Yamit. Awesome. But quoting the Torah to someone who considers its ideas and prescriptions as mere “oxymoronic endeavour(s)” is pointless. This is why the world refused to tolerate Rabbi Kahane: he was the real Jew, the “original shell” and not some Diasporic invention that might encompassed most of Judaism even but not Torah Zionism in particular. Torah Zionism is a touchy subject for those who have decided the mention of G-D is a cause for embarrassment among their peers. “The fool has said in his heart, There is no G-D.” And the G-D they deny, the G-D many Jews and gentiles refuse to proclaim “primary loyalty” to is the G-D who prescibes Torah Zionism as the means of perpetuating the survival of the Israel the nation and the people. Without Zionism (as defined in the Torah), without the land of Israel, the divine mission of the Jewish people is rendered inefficacious. I know I am deep waters here, not even my waters (I’m a gentile), but this is the way I see it.
Let me understand your logic here:
In your posting #38, you refer to the definition of “People” I suggested in my article, based on the six typical attributes listed in Webster – a definition that is, by the way, universally accepted.
You then maintain that “Jews have no common culture, language, history and institutions” and on that basis you conclude that, according to “the definition I supplied,” the Jews “are not a people [and] that’s unambiguous.”
In other words, what is unambiguous is that you reject the generally accepted definition of a People as non-applicable to the Jewish People. You prefer to limit the Jewish attributes of peoplehood to your religious interpretation of what is exclusively contained in Judaism.
In doing so, you are unwittingly giving credence to the negationist nonsense proffered in the PLO Charter: “Judaism, being a religion, is not an independent nationality. Nor do Jews constitute a single nation with an identity of its own; they are citizens of the states to which they belong.” (Article 20).
yamit82 Said:
You have a very strong point.
Salomon Benzimra Said:
Don’t know that disparage is the right term. I am critical and see things differently from a different perspective.
A fondness for kreplach and klezmer and Isaac Bashevis Singer does not make a Jew Jewish.
Jews in the diaspora are pushing a culture, complete with Sholem Aleichem and dreidels and lithographs of the Western Wall. But for a culture, no matter how engaging, no one is ready to sacrifice one’s life – nor the love of one’s life. Against Christianity American Jews have pitted not Judaism, but Judaica. And you are losing the battle.
History shows that substitutes for halachic Judaism have a shelf life of four generations or less. Reform Judaism’s founder Moses Mendelssohn had nine grandchildren; eight of them were baptized as Christians. Zionist founder Theodore Herzl’s children were not only not Zionists, they were not Jews. How many of the grandchildren of the great Yiddish writer I.L. Peretz married under a chupah? How many of his great-grandchildren know what a chupah is?
To perpetuate Jewish culture, outside of museums and university courses, at the very least you need Jews. But Jews, as all the population surveys prove, are rapidly disappearing. The first step in the multi-million-dollar enterprise of passing Jewish culture on to the next generation is to ensure that there will be a next generation.
I maintain that assimilation in North America is irreversible. I maintain that If the Jewish people are to have a Future, it will only be found in Israel. American Jews can either be a part of that Future, or they can simply disappear.
American Jewry will not vanish overnight. But its days are numbered! Should Israel and Israeli Jews seek to become more like American and Canadian Jews? Take advice from American and Canadian Jews? Would an enterprise seek to emulate failures of other like enterprises?
The Biblical injunction: “Behold! It is a nation that will dwell in solitude and not be reckoned among the nations.”(Num. 23:9) and (Lev. 20:26), “I have separated you from the nations,” Was the primary method of Keeping Jews, Jews and if the truth be told in many if not most cases the Jews created their own Ghetto-ization for the obvious reasons of maintaining Jewish identification and Judaism in the diaspora.
The Interdependency of the Jewish People and the Land of Israel
Salomon Benzimra Said:
In response to your statement defining a people:
I wrote:
Based on the definition you supplied above, the Jews are not a people. That’s unambiguous. The only definition of Jews as a people is determined and found in foundational Jewish Sources not Webster.
I repeat the Jews have no commonality with regard to History, language, culture and I will add common land. The History of the Jews of Europe, Iraq and Persia for example is much longer than Jewish history in the land of Israel. No common language (obvious) Hebrew was only a liturgical language not a common spoken one till: Eliezer Ben-Yehuda & the Revival of Hebrew
I reject the principle of primary loyalty to countries of residence for Jews in the diaspora. A Jew regardless of religious identification who does not place Israel and other Jews as their first loyalty cannot truly be a religious or good Jew by definition. Firstly the Commandment to conquer and settle the Land of Israel is the primary overriding commandment in the Torah. One could say it is the primary national commandment in Judaism and is not time bound or restricted. It’s applicable at all times and in every generation. Therefore I credit a secular even atheist Jew who makes Aliyah more Jewish than the most pious Orthodox practitioner of Jewish ritual whose sojourn in an Exile two millennia old has corrupted and perverted the most basic of real Jewish values. “Bearded and piously payotic; or cleanshaven and woolly skullcapped, they join with all the others in the ecumenical worship of the Golden Calf of our times: The Golden Exile.”
The overriding Litmus Test of who is a Jew is whether their children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren will remain Jewish.
You can’t argue the results and conclusions of the following Surveys depicting the Jewish condition in America and probably Canada as well which graphically and statistically supports my stated positions and demolishes yours.
Let’s just see you separate the “Islamists” from those Muslims you deem worthy of Israeli citizenship. You must think you’re the Moshiach. You don’t get it. Let’s see what the “language of nations” says about those laws. Here’s a hint: it will condemn those laws. You use Marois’ Quebec as an example of your stratagem for Israel and her Muslim population? The Muslims will never pack up and leave like English Quebecers are doing. Not even the “moderate” types (who become suicide bombers too) will be happy about their Islamist heroes being denied citizenship (hence they then become the “Islamists” you’re trying to get rid of). Not very prudent of you.
Muslims aren’t stupid. They don’t foresee a Jewish state as resembling a Muslim caliphate. That’s not it at all. You make them sound like stupid olive farmers every one. They simply don’t like Jews, with or without their Judaism and democracy. You talk about them like they have no grasp of Israel’s modernity. They get it, but they just don’t want a democracy with Jews in it. You are only complicating an already complicated situation with your ideas about imposing Western style democracy upon a preponderant Muslim Middle East (which would necessarily include Israel’s Muslim population) which hates beyond any human comprehension anything Jewish and not Islamic. A spurious idea, as I pointed out before.
I’m not twisting your words. You just haven’t caught up with me. You’re stuck in your very own “oxymoronic endeavour.”
“I will refrain from addressing you any further.”
You can’t defend your imprudent and unrealistic ideas, and you surely cannot abide someone like me pointing out their obvious inapplicability within the borders of Israel. You have no balls. Your cowardice proves you have no faith in your silly notions of bringing democracy to a people who never wanted it in the first place. You can’t make cheesecakes out of snow.
@ M Devolin:
Not again! Arguing with you is like enduring another visit to the dentist, and probably worse, since there is no constructive end to it.
If after reading what I wrote you still keep hashing and rehashing…
– that “I denigrated Zionists”;
– that “I mourn my Muslim buddy because he dislikes the idea of too much ‘Jewishness’ in Israel”;
– that I presumably “don’t believe that Muslims hate Jews and the very idea of Jews living in the Middle East”;
– that “Jews should curtail their Judaism and their Torah for the sake of the Muslim world”;
– that “I would kiss Musslim ass” (as you put it so elegantly);
– that I presented “Zionism as ‘cultural isolation'”;
– that “I condemn as a foolish and ‘oxymoronic endeavour’ those who sacrifice ‘for Zion'”;
– that “I am trying to deny the efficaciousness of Torah and the ‘religious aspects’ of observant Jews”;
… you will understand, I hope, that I am a bit tired of having my words “twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools”, as Kipling aptly said. And so, with all due respect, I will refrain from addressing you any further.
“You disparage the “non-religious Jewish identification,” and their attachment to Israel, while conveniently forgetting that this type of Jews are he ones who launched the Jewish nationalist movement known as Zionism…”
Where did Jabotinsky learned his Zionism? Where did Herzl learn his Zionism? Are purporting that no “religious” Jews fought for the establishment of the State of Israel? Are you saying that only non-religious Jews (Jews without any measure of regard for Torah) are responsible for the continued existence of “a nation of Jews”? Are you saying that ancient Torah Zionism has nothing to do with Jabotinsky and Herzl coming up with the idea of leaving the Diaspora and moving to the land of Israel? Without the Jewish consciousness of the Torah prescribed Zionism, without the longing for a land for the Jewish people to be safe and secure, Jabotinsky and Herzl would have been satisfied with Madagascar or Libya for that matter. You’re trying to deny the efficaciousness of Torah and the “religious aspects” of observant Jews.
“…not blurred by emotional or religious aspects.”
King David complained, “they take away the hope of the poor.” This is you. You believe only what the non-religious are comfortable with. This is why you regard real Zionists (not those who’ve borrowed the term and transmogrified the original, Torah-defined national dream) as moronic and obtuse. You regard a belief in G-D as an irrational adventure. You are trying to obfuscate the Torah-defined delineation for the Israel which will someday become a “light unto the nations.”
“The fool has said in his heart (intellect), ‘There is no G-d.'” How can you speak of Israel as a “light unto the nations” (a “light” created by “religious Jews” to teach non-religious nations about the G-D of Israel and how these non-Jewish nations should behave and “walk before HIM”) when you condemn the “religious aspects” of the Torah and the observant Jew? Why are you doing this? You don’t even live in Israel. I’ve read about how Jews who survived the camps immediately, when their freedom was realized, held religious services. This is the Zionism that effected Jabotinsky’s dreams about the land of Israel and how JEWS (the original shell) should RETURN there. Even when the non-religious Jew returns to Israel, he is being religious in doing so. All those non-religious Jews who returned to the land of Israel during and before the Holocaust committed a religious act in doing so. Why should the argument for the survival of Israel’s “original shell” (the observant Jew and his Torah) be obscured by “the language of nations”? Define the language of nations. Do you mean like the UN? Have you listened to this language in the last few decades? They refuse to acknowledge (never mind listen to) the “rational arguments” of Jews. Jews should speak this language? To what end? Jabotinsky and Herzl tried this. It didn’t work. Jews tried speaking this language before the Six Day War (remember?), and what was this “language of nations”? The French and Russian texts differed from the English in resolution 242. Israel was being ordered around like some cabin boy on a pirate ship after having defended herself against nations whose language is still rather quite clear as regards their opinion of the “nation of Jews”: they want them removed from the face of the earth. This is the language you “enjoin” the Jews of Israel (not, comfortably enough for you, the Jews of Canada) should speak while responding to those Islamic nations (and your Muslim buddy who doesn’t like Judaism) who wish the Jews dead and gone?
“This is totally irrelevant to what I wrote when I mentioned the “original shell,” i.e. the religious foundation which gave birth to every great civilization…”
You missed the point: the Jew and his observance of Torah is the “religious foundation” which gave birth to Israel. Remember the title of the article: ‘The Jews: a people, a nation, a state.’ You denigrated Zionists, and Zionism is part of Judaism.
I was not worried about any contradiction. I was pointing out two different applications of meaning to two different contexts of the term “isolation”. And I did not say Israelis should not “interact” with other nations. I referred to your Muslim buddy, whom you mourn over because he dislikes the idea of too much “Jewishness” in the land of Israel. My point was that Jews cannot “interact” with a people whose religion forbids and condemns the Torah, Judaism and the Jew. Are you going to tell me you don’t believe Muslims hate Jews, hate the very idea of Jews living in the Middle East? I have no problem with Israel “interacting” with nations willing to hear and respect the voice of a nation of Jews. What I will not consent to (although I will probably never visit Israel), unlike you, is that Jews should curtail their Judaism and their Torah for the sake of the Muslim world, the majority of whom want the Jews of Israel dead and forgotten (You don’t believe this, oh wise man?). You would rather, as a Jew (albeit a Jew living in Toronto, Canada), kiss Muslim ass? This is the point you missed.
“…engage in non-sequiturs, resort to ad hominem attacks, and keep squaring the circle”
Sounds like you’re the one worried. You resort to old and worn out, rote-learned phrases that sound as empty when they were dreamed up back in the sixties as they do today. You didn’t rebut any of my post. You simply resorted to the kind of contention you describe above. Tell me what I don’t understand. “Cultural isolation” is not Zionism in the context you present. “Cultural isolation” is a segmental part of Judaism in the context of Torah observance. Israel can only be a “light unto the nations” to those nations who do not wish her dead and gone. I am not worried about any contradiction. Articulating one’s statements is not something remarkable. You are asked to explain yourself to those whose sacrifices “for Zion” you condemn as foolish and an “oxymoronic endeavour.” And then all you can say when your insults are rebutted (rebuttals which were quite relevant to the title) is that we don’t understand. “Cavil will enter at any hole.”
@ yamit82:
You ask me to “make my case” and I will gladly oblige:
In your posting #10:
– You almost denied the existence of Jews as a people, by dismissing the common attribues that make a people a people, and retaining only orthodox Judaism, which you acknowledge “most people have rejected.” So what is left for a “non-people” to aspire to nationhood and create a State?
– You disparage the “non-religious Jewish identification,” and their attachment to Israel, while conveniently forgetting that this type of Jews are he ones who launched the Jewish nationalist movement known as Zionism, which led to the establishment of the State of Israel, and still form a substantial portion of the Israeli population.
– You stated that “belief and faith” are essential in “debating Zionism” and that I am “not rational” if I don’t share this view. Had you read the full article and my posting #21, you would have noted that religious beliefs have always been the foundation of great civilizations; that Jewish civilization emanated from the Torah and the Biblical literature; that this civilization produced a definite people conscious of its heritage and universal values; that after two millennia this people had its nation reconstituted in its ancestral land; and that the people, the nation and, eventually, the State are the result of that religious “original shell.”
– You rightly cling to Israel’s mission to be “a light unto the nations” but you believe that this can only be achieved through “Cultural Isolation” This is what I found appalling, as I stated in my posting #21, since these two goals are mutually exclusive and putting them together is nothing more than an “oxymoronic project.”
You and other Othodox Jews believe that God gave the Land of Israel to the Jews and that is an open and shut case for the legitimacy of Israel, thus making any further justification futile. As I pointed out in my posting #21, I respect those who harbour that belief. But since we are living in a world of nations, to make the Case for Israel (the real “Case for Israel” and not Dershowitz’s version) enjoins us to speak the language of nations and to present rational arguments not blurred by emotional or religious aspects. That is what I have been trying to do for the past several years.
In closing, I wish you all the best for the New Year 5774. Shana Toba!
Salomon Benzimra Said:
I have re-read your comment and I have seen nothing there to change my first opinion. I never asked you to justify anything but since you reject my understanding of yours, you could try to explain what you meant and where I have misunderstood your meaning. Brushing me aside for distorting your views is intellectually dishonest. Where is the distortion? Calling me “self-righteous” ignores the merits of mu arguments and opinions. Make your case if you really believe I have regularly distorted your views and show with examples how I am self-righteous.
For your information: Israel has become the world’s largest Jewish population center, overtaking America for the first time.
The total Jewish population of six million in the country carries added significance, as this was the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust.
Census statistics revealed that Israel’s total population has reached eight million, with the surge in the Jewish community thought to have been fueled by returning members of the diaspora. On the contrary, world Jewry has experienced negative growth.
How Religious are Israeli Jews?
Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs Survey
Ten year follow-Up Study by the “Israel Democracy Institute”
Survey conducted by the Guttman Center for Surveys of the Israel Democracy Institute for The AVI CHAI–Israel Foundation
A Portrait of Israeli Jews Beliefs, Observance, and Values of Israeli Jews, 2009
The present report surveys stable and changing trends in the self-defined religiosity of Jews who live in Israel for the period from 1991 to 2009, the date of the last survey. These years have seen certain changes in how Israeli Jews define their religiosity and the extent to which they observe religious tradition : exceeded the figure in 1999 (22% and 16%, respectively). Similarly, more respondents said that they observe religious tradition to a great extent (26% and 19%, respectively). Correspondingly, a smaller percentage of Israeli Jews defined themselves as “secular but not anti-religious” or as “anti-religious” in 2009 than did so in 1999 (46% and 52%, respectively). The downward trend in the percentage of Israeli Jews who say they observe religious tradition to a great extent, observed from 1991 to 1999 (apparently under the impact of the mass immigration from the former Soviet Union), no longer exists. From 1999 to 2009 there was an increase in the percentage of Israeli Jews who observe Jewish tradition to a great extent. This reversal of the trend (between 1999 and 2009) may be evidence that the immigrants from
the former Soviet Union have been assimilated into Israeli society and have adopted Jewish customs and traditions; it may also reflect an increase in the demographic weight of the Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox. It seems plausible that, were it not for the mass immigration from the former Soviet Union in the early 1990s, the increase in religious observance from 1991 to 2009 would have been linear.
The Trends of Diaspora Jews is the inverse of the that of Israeli Jews. From negative population growth to the near abandonment of Judaism and lack of identification with Israel puts our two communities on a collision course
The war over intermarriage has been lost. Now what?
Across the spectrum of observance, Jewish leaders are embracing rather than shunning Jews and their gentile partners
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Stating the facts does not make one self righteous. Ignoring them makes one irrational as are conclusions based on the same irrational POV.
I just waited a while for the avalanche of non-constructive criticism and nonsensical constructs to subside, before responding to this thread:
To Yamit:
The last thing in my mind is having to justify to you my attachment to Israel. It is up to you to dig a bit deeper to understand opinions which differ from yours and read (perhaps, re-read) what I wrote instead of regularly distorting my views to satisfy your self-righteousness.
To M Devolin:
You should control your urge to write before you read and understand. See Yamit’s comment #10 (who introduced “light unto the nations” and “cultural isolation,” a contradiction in terms, if there ever was one)and, perhaps, you should take this fight with him.
But this, apparently, did not prevent you from digging yourself a deeper hole, when you added:
Relax! You shouldn’t worry about another contradiction.
You may also believe that Jews/Israelis should not interact with any group/people/nation because the non-Jewish world “wants to destroy the very idea of [Jewish] existence” (#23). That is the ghetto mentality of the eternally persecuted, which the State of Israel, to its credit, has been (and still is) trying to eradicate.
Again, it would be helpful if you could read and understand before you get foolishly carried away with your misguided indignation.
This is totally irrelevant to what I wrote when I mentioned the “original shell,” i.e. the religious foundation which gave birth to every great civilization, but perhaps you are not prepared to understand even a straightforward statement.
In conclusion:
What I learned from this brief exchange can be summarized as follows: True believers (of every hue) and those with little understanding would ignore factual evidence, distort opposing arguments, clutch at any dubious straw, engage in non-sequiturs, resort to ad hominem attacks, and keep squaring the circle by any illogical means available to uphold their cherished, half-baked ideas. And they still believe they can be convincing. Good luck!
Yamit:
Thank you for the articles clarifying the story of the Korean’s interest in the Talmud.
On another subject matter, there is an article about the Haim Shore’s book “Coincidences in the Bible and in Biblical Hebrew”? It is posted in Jerusalem Post under “Mere-coincidence-or-divine-truth”.
It is said that it “offers dozens of incidents in which the Hebrew words in the Bible offer hidden information about the objects or people they represent, information which, in many cases, couldn’t have been known or measured until modern times. “This is not gematria,” Shore says.”
Shana Tova!
I have two posts which seem to contradict each other. In the first one, I’m rebutting the Toronto writer’s derogatory slant when using the term “cultural isolation.” In the other I’m explaining (as a Gentile), as best I can, the Torah-prescribed “cultural isolation” for the Jew. One “cultural isolation” is quite different from the other. Benzimra’s version insinuates that Zionism is inefficacious and outdated; the Torah version, on the other hand, is absolutely salubrious (but not always welcomed or accepted by the Gentile world).
@ XLucid:
Debunking the Korean Talmud Story
Update to the Korean Talmud Story
More on Korean Talmud studies – not quite as it was reported
@ yamit82:
Salomon Benzimra Said:
“Self -crippling principle”??? Says it all. You support an Israel that mirrors your world view. Sounds like Dershowitz. Sounds to me your support for Israel is conditional. If so that separates those like you from religious Zionists who accept the country unconditionally.
It seems that the said “””self-crippling principles” fascinate at least some people:
“Charlie Park, Vice President of Samsung Korea, visited an Israeli Yeshiva at Shalavim last week, accompanied by a South Korean camera crew, and met with the program directors and with students to document how students study Talmud at the Yeshiva.
The South Koreans have developed a fascination with the study of Talmud. The country’s ambassador to Israel, Ma Young-Sam, has told the “Culture Today” TV show that Talmud study is now a mandatory part of the country’s school curriculum.
In addition, it is said, almost every home in South Korea boasts a Korean version of the Talmud, and mothers commonly teach it to their children, who call it the “Light of Knowledge.” Young-Sam explained, “We were very curious about the high academic achievements of the Jews, who have a high percentage of Nobel laureates in all fields – literature, science and economics.
“This is a remarkable achievement. We tried to understand: What is the secret of the Jewish people? How are they, more than other people, able to reach those impressive accomplishments? Why are Jews so intelligent? “
The conclusion we arrived at is that one of your secrets is that you study the Talmud… We believe that if we teach our children Talmud, they will also become geniuses.
This is what stands behind the rationale of introducing Talmud study to our school curriculum. I, for example, have two sets of the Talmud.” While touring the Beit Midrash, the study hall, he said he now felt he understood “the growing grounds” of the Jewish genius. Park was at the yeshiva to get a first-hand account of this wonder, but his trip also involved business. He was in Israel to review possible acquisitions of Israeli startup companies.”
@ Salomon Benzimra:
@ M Devolin:
Jewish atheists and ultra-Orthodox have found a common point: the ostensible Jewish purpose of light unto the nations. Atheists love its universalist Christian tint, and haredi take it for confirmation of their superiority.
The best thing about this doctrine is its justification for staying in the Exile: in order to bring light to the nations, Jews have to stay among them. Both camps are lying.
Nothing overrides the explicit commandment that Jews are “the people that dwells alone.”
Atheist Jewish liberals would not dare say to their gentile friends that Jews possess something which gentiles lack; that the Jewish way of life is inherently better. Atheist Liberals have no right to say this, as their way of life is not Jewish in any sense, but indistinguishable from the gentiles. A Jewish atheist liberal who speaks of Judaism somehow being equal to Jeffersonian political utopia—what can he teach his gentile acquaintances? His “Judaism” only includes the points acceptable to his fellow gentile liberals; all the rest is abandoned. It has not even been eradicated, as that would have required knowledge of Judaism on the atheist liberal’s part, but simply abandoned, left unlearned and unknown. The atheist liberal’s Judaism is narrower than gentile ethics, a subset of it. Such “Judaism” includes what gentiles accept, but not everything that they accept. It contains only the things which gentiles have long adopted anyway, and therefore cannot serve as a light unto the nations.
Rather, the light is similar to the beacon’s. Ships sail toward it, but it doesn’t go forward to the ships. The beacon stays on its island; the ships move. Nations can start admiring the Jewish way of life only if we prove it to them. After the 1967 war, Jews became hugely popular around the world. By staying in Israel and making it into a strong, daring, unusual state, Jews have the best chance to draw gentiles to our values.
Salomon, come out to the Pamela Geller/Robert Spencer event on Sept 17 in Toronto (you live in Toronto, right?). You can hear about another flavour of “cultural isolation,” a most insalubrious and dangerous kind; the kind that makes “interaction” virtually impossible for the Jew in the Middle East. The Islamic kind. I’ll be there with JDL Canada and some Zionist Jews who served an “oxymoronic endeavour” in the IDF. You can tell these guys why you think it’s a bad idea that Israel become more Jewish or culturally isolated. Your writing could use a good dose of reality.
“light of the nations” cannot happen without “cultural isolation.” That’s a Torah precept. Or as Confucius said, “First you carve, then you polish.” How is such a Torah- prescribed stratagem become, in your opinion, “an oxymoronic endeavour”? How do Jews become more observant of Torah laws, the laws that also are intended, by way of Jewish teachers, to enlighten the non-Jewish world when there is no safe haven to meditate (also a Torah precept) on those laws? And how do you “interact” with those who want to destroy the very idea of your existence? You can’t talk sense to a shotgun. Don’t blame your dilettantish efforts at Torah Judaism on those Zionists who, through their “oxymoronic endeavour,” lived and died to give you the Jewish nation you may (or may not) choose to live in someday.
Don’t ever write that you respect the “minority opinion” of Zionists when with the same pen you slander their dreams and their children and their G-D. You should be ashamed of making such impudent statements.
“…interacting with others. That’s what the Jews have been doing for centuries and the State of Israel ensures and strengthens this continuity.”
And which Jews would they be? Those who “interacted” with the German Weimar Republic? Look where their WW1 medals got them. A pile of ashes in Treblinka. Or with Islamic kingdoms and clans past and present? Where is the fruit of such interaction between Jew and Arab Muslim? Perhaps you can tell me. Jews were so courteous to “interact” that they were willing to share the land of Israel with Arab Muslims way back when, even before Jabotinsky began to dream his dream, even when Arab Muslims were committing pogroms upon good-hearted Jewish families long before the Holocaust and long before sophists like you pretend upon the smell of a democracy that will never work with those who despise democracy, namely Arab Muslims. What is the Arab Spring? Not a lust for democracy but a lust for the violence of Islam. Don’t lecture anyone here about “cultural isolation.” The only “cultural isolation” evident here is that created by Islamic-taught hatred of the Jew.
“Light unto the nations” cannot be, nor was ever intended to be, a form of “cultural isolation.” The very phrase denotes something quite the contrary. The Arab Muslim you quote in your silly article wanted nothing to do with this light. Apparently you want nothing to do with it either. Light reaches ourward. The Zionist of the Torah (past and present) demands (not asks nor apologizes) borders large enough to become and remain a “light unto the nations.” It is not about “cultural isolation,” it is about a secure place beyond dilettantish sentiments like yours where Jews–observant Jews–can walk their national covenant with G-D (which cannot be experienced to its fullest measure in Toronto, Canada) without fear of suicide bombings and genocidal stratagems.
The “original shell” is the Jew. When the Jew teaches me, a gentile, he is going beyond his shell. That is all that is required of him. No law, whether man-made or not, whether democratically drawn up or invented by the Hitlers of this present age, can demand with any measure of authority (not even from Toronto Canada) that the Jew has to cease being a Jew nor that the Israel prescribed in the Torah should be tossed aside for your avant-garde and immediate wishes. Temporary fantasies have not prolonged Jewish life for millennia: the dream of a Jewish Israel, even from within the barracks of extermination camps or shitty little hovels constricted within Islamic androcracies, have given the Jews the eternal driving force to keep going, keep fighting back and keep listening to a Jewish conscience and to disregard the roaring of fools who cannot think beyond their own stomach and their penis. Think of the Warsaw Ghetto fighters, the Jews who prayed at the Wall the day they walked over their dead brothers and sisters to get there, you impudent man, and then tell me about this “cultural isolation” you imagine has plagued the Zionist Jew. If not for the Zionist Jew, you wouldn’t have the freedom to sit comfortably on your ass in Toronto and harangue about an Israel that exists today because of their “oxymoronic endeavour.”
@ yamit82:
Yamit and his like-minded commentators are religious Zionists. I respect their minority position. But the Nation of Israel that was reconstituted around a century ago; the Israel we all love and support; the Israel that has flourished in a wide variety of areas in the past decades and has a bright future was not, fortunately, based on self-crippling principles.
All great civilizations originated in religious beliefs. Many vanished but the ones which survived and had a universal impact did so by expanding beyond their original shell and by interacting with others. That’s what the Jews have been doing for centuries and the State of Israel ensures and strengthens this continuity.
Expecting Israel to be a “light into the nations” while promoting the notion of “cultural isolation” is an oxymoronic endeavour.
Thanks for the link with Rabbi Kahane, Yamit. Awesome.
yamit82 Said:
The difference now of course is the Jews have their own country again and the sky’s the limit in terms of population growth from both births and aliyah. The Chicken Littles on Jewish demography have been wrong time and time again – and yet Israel’s leaders use their scare-mongering as justification to cede Judea and Samaria to the Arabs.
“Israel’s raison d’être is redemption and it’s mission statement is to be a light to the nations which can only be accomplished within the construct of a Jewish politi in the Land of Israel. Assuming Jewish laws, Jewish language (Hebrew) and a Jewish (Hebrew) culture with as much separation from the influences of the worlds cultures as possible (Cultural Isolation). Jewish existence is predicacted on being different than the nations (Havdala).”
This is exactly what I’ve been taught. Thank you, Yamit.
And sorry I didn’t wish my Jewish friends here a Happy New Year. Happy New Year, everyone!!
NormanF Said:
Logical fallacy. Jews were never more in numbers than what we have today except for a brief period before the Holocaust. Assimilation has been the greatest curse in depleting our numbers, more so than all the tragedies that befell the Jews throughout history.
“It has been prophesied in the Torah that Jews will survive as an eternal nation despite dispersion and being few in number:
“God will then scatter you among the nations, and only a small number will remain among the nations where God shall lead you” (Deuteronomy 4:27).
To every other people, a small population spells extinction. We know from the records that the Romans kept about 2,000 years ago, there were between 8-10 million Jews living in the world. How many Jews do demographers say should be in the world today?
If in the same period of time, the Chinese went from a population of 30 million to over 1 billion people, there should be approximately 500 million Jews alive in the world today. After the Chinese and the Indians, the third largest ethnic group on the planet earth should be the Jews! But there are only 14 million Jews alive today.
There are virtually no more Jews in the world today than there were 2,000 years ago and yet throughout all this time, the Jews remained a distinct people. ” http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/7-wonders-of-jewish-history/#3
yamit82 Said:
Strength in numbers is necessary for both power and safety. A great nation is exceedingly numerous. There is no shame if Israel becomes the most populous nation in the Middle East. And given the Arabs propensity for killing other, that’s a doable objective if the Jewish people retain their unity.
yamit82 Said:
That is based on a literal interpretation of the Torah – where it describes Israel’s kings as being punished for holding a census. The problems with a plain interpretation of the Scriptures are too clear – every one has a different feel for what it common sense. In the end, Karaite Jews found themselves back in the same place as other Jews. In the Middle Ages, their leading lights were among the greatest exponents of Judaism – one thinks of Isaac Troki and his classic “Faith Strengthened.” Much of the impetus that once animated them is spent. There are more differences between the Reform and the Orthodox than between the Karaites and the rest of Judaism. Differences among Jews can be addressed but differences between Jews and their enemies can’t be. There is a Jewish nation – whether or not Jews accept that their enemies will never accept their existence amongst them.
the phoenix Said:
Thanks, and same back to you and yours.
NormanF Said:
“For you are a holy people to HaShem, your God; HaShem, your God, has chosen you to be for Him a treasured people above all peoples that are on the face of the Earth. Not because you are more numerous than all the peoples did HaShem desire you and choose you, for you are the fewest of all the peoples. Rather, because of HaShem’s love for you and because He observes the oath that He swore to your forefathers did He take you out with a strong hand and redeem you from the house of slavery — from the hand of Pharaoh, king of Egypt.” (Deut. 7:6-8);
Anybody can become a Jew through proper conversion. We don’t want or need them as things stand and it’s not in Hashems plan for them to become Jews or anyone else except some few here and there. Converts must be few in number so we can assimilate them without creating internal disharmony. The numbers maximally should not exceed those who leave the Jewish fold.
@ yamit82:
Thank you, yamit.
My warmest and kindest wishes for a happy new year, to you and yours.
the phoenix Said:
Smart guy!!! 🙂
Jews have no common culture, language, history or traditions and institutions. The only thing in common is orthodox Judaism and even here most Jews have rejected that.
Non religious Jewish identification has a shelf life of no more than 3 generations. Cultural or secular non practice of Judaism is akin to Judaica; non sustaining & not sufficient reason to sacrifice and certainly not give up ones life for.
You cannot avoid injecting of belief and faith when debating Zionism or the Jewish question. In my opinion it’s those like you who are not rational not those who are believers and have faith in G-d.
Israel’s raison d’être is redemption and it’s mission statement is to be a light to the nations which can only be accomplished within the construct of a Jewish politi in the Land of Israel. Assuming Jewish laws, Jewish language (Hebrew) and a Jewish (Hebrew) culture with as much separation from the influences of the worlds cultures as possible (Cultural Isolation). Jewish existence is predicacted on being different than the nations (Havdala).
Principles for a Hebrew Liberation Movement
My definition of Zionism
The Jewish people is a National-Religious people whose fulfillment of purpose rests in the reclamation of Eretz Yisrael and in the Jewish institutions that govern it. Unique among the nations, only the Jewish people is a people for whom it is a religious and national obligation to establish an independent polity. As important to the physical reclamation of the land is the physical return of the Jewish people to the biblically promised lands of our forefathers.
@ yamit82:
Dear yamit,
On the subject of Judaism…
What is your opinion on rabbi ken spiro and aish.com ?
NormanF Said:
You are correct we can’t. They must all go willingly or by force.
NormanF Said:
LOl Who are you trying to BS? They are not good Jews or bad Jews they are not Jews!!!! The difference between Jews and Karites is as wide as Islam and christianity. They are a cult a separate religion and if you want proof? During World War II, the large Karaite community in the Crime was spared by the Nazis who also did not consider them to be Jewish. In any event it is impossible to live a Jewish life without the Oral Torah as so much of the Written Torah is not specific enough. Thus, where the Torah commands “and you shall write them [these words] upon the doorposts of your home,” how can anyone know which words of the Torah, or indeed, if the entire Torah is to be written on the doorpost? It is the Oral Torah that explains that this passage refers to the words of the Shema prayer, which are to be written on a parchment scroll and then affixed in a specified place and manner on the doorpost. The mezuzah!
As a result of their literal reading of the Torah, the Karaites came to observe Shabbat in total darkness, unable to leave their homes all day except to go to the synagogue. They did away with the observance of Chanukah because it is not mentioned in the Written Torah, as well as with the separation of meat and milk for the same reason. Ironically, because so many statements in the Bible cannot be explained with out the Oral Law, the Karaites had to create their own oral law as a way of translating these statements in the Bible into practical applications.
There is a small number of Karaites left, living chiefly in Israel, though no one is sure how many as the Karaites forbid census-taking. Their population has been variously estimated at 7,000 all the way up to 40,000. They are forbidden to marry other Jews and marry only each other.
“If a person is to accept that he is Jewish then he must define this concept upon viable and authentic Jewish sources and render precise his own actions accordingly. Any other alternative to this is something other than Judaism. That is, a person may, given free-will, live according to what is right in his own eyes, however, he must be rationally forced to understand that it is of his own devise and should be so called as such.”
The Jewish identity is defined as being the unification of three factors: (i) the People, (ii) its Soul (ie through Torah), and (ii) its adhesion to the Land of Israel (integrally and not a portion thereof).
The Declaration of Independence was based upon the said three factors as mentioned therein: “The land of Israel was the birthplace of the Jewish people. Here their spiritual, religious and national identity was formed. Here they achieved independence and created a culture of national and universal significance. Here they wrote and gave the Bible to the world.”
With the time passing, the three factors have been disjointed, and the two factors of the soul and the adhesion have been diluted, resulting in the terrible imbalance prevailing currently.
Nothing would have hindered Israel from being a modern Jewish democratic state. Democracy is a universal system of governance, areligious by its essence; therefore a democracy may adopt any religion.
An authentic Jewish State would have never agreed to cede territories or to flout the rights of the Jewish People throughout discriminations and expulsions.
As to Arabs in Israel, an authentic Jewish State would have never witnessed a terror-deputy Zahalka telling during a Knesset debate: “We were here before you, and we’ll be here after you.”
An authentic Jewish State would have taken draconian measures against all the traitors and negationists, and certainly not the following mere response from Mr. Netanyahu: “The first part is not true and the second part will never happen“.
Israel is actually a State for Jews rather than a Jewish State.
“Only Israel West of the River”
Mordechai Nisan
http://www.btzedek.com/law/law04.html
Some Excerpts:
yamit82 Said:
If they could be made good Jews – that eliminates one more anti-Semitic source of hate in the World. We cannot leave them as they are! The Karaites are good Jews – they may not agree with the Oral Law and the differences between them and mainstream Judaism is miniscule. The Samaritans are dying out and won’t be around in a few generations. If non-Jews want to reside in the Land, they must take an oath of loyalty to the Jewish people – which by definition – precludes the present-day Arabs. I want more good Jews in the world. The fewer Muslims, the better off Israel will be.
NormanF Said:
Even if they could somehow be assimilated they still must be transferred out. We don’t want them here. I oppose any non Jews residing in the land and that includes the sectarian Karites and Samaritans.
@ yamit82:
Either assimilate them or remove them.
Can Israel remain Jewish and one-third Arab? Its a contradiction in terms.
“What is Zionism”
“Can Democracy and Zionism Coexist?”
What is Zionism? A Jewish Guide…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPPKMCU4oTY
“For the Arab population to share sovereign power in the state, they must first become citizens, that is embrace the common goals and spiritual principles of the founding nation.”
I cannot see Arab Muslims ever embracing “the common goals and spiritual principles of the founding nation [Israel].” Show me one Muslims ready to “embrace” the “spiritual principles” of a Jewish nation. Not going to happen. It’s anathema for the Muslim to “embrace” anything of the Jew and his Judaism. Besides, democracy is not the vision the Torah has for Israel. Ibrahim Sarsur’s statement is a perfect example of why Arab Muslims living within such a Jewish state will never be anything else but a security risk (because we all know how Arab Muslims react when they perceive that their Islam and its egregious cultures are being “threatened”): “The Judaization of the state threatens us.” This was always the covert complaint of Christians in Europe centuries before the same religiously taught Jew-hatred precipitated the Holocaust. And now this guy foretells that Arab Muslims will be “cool” with a Jewish state? Not. The “spiritual principles” of Torah Zionism (not the secularist, transmogrified version) are what brought back the Jews to Israel and established once again, a second time, a sovereign nation there. Democracy followed after, over the graves of dead Jews who knew even then, before the Arab Muslims murdered them, that these animals would never accept a Jewish state and the “spiritual principles” that propelled its emergence far and away from the ashes of Auschwitz and Sobibor and Treblinka. We are forgetting the Holocaust. This is why Jews dream up such ridiculous and spurious ideas about their mortal enemies and why groups like the EU are now dictating how Israel and her Jews should commit national suicide.
“From all over the Reich information is now flowing in: 50, then 70 synagogues are burning. The Fuhrer has ordered that 20-30,000 Jews should immediately be arrested…In Berlin, 5, then 15 synagogues burn down. Now popular anger rages…It should be given free rein.” -Joseph Goebbels, night of Kristallnacht pogrom