By Ted Belman Dec 26/14
The Holocaust didn’t occur because of Hitler but because of the Church. Hitler merely built upon the policies of the Church and drove them to their logical conclusion.
Of course I am familiar with the idea that but for Christianity, the Holocaust wouldn’t have happened, but wasn’t fully aware of the debt owed by Hitler to precedents set by the Church for the details of his policies, including the final solution.
R. Hilberg’s classic The Destruction of European Jews provides the link. Hilberg begins his introduction with these words:
The German destruction of the European Jews was a tour de force; the Jewish collapse under the German assault was a manifestation of failure. Both of these phenomena were the final product of an earlier age.
Anti-Jewish policies and anti-Jewish actions did not have their beginning in 1933. For many centuries, and in many countries, the Jews have been victims of destructive action. What was the object of these activities? What were the aims of those who persisted in anti-Jewish deeds? Throughout Western history, three consecutive policies have been applied against Jewry in its dispersion.
The policies referred to included 1) conversion, 2) expulsion and 3) extermination. The first and second were often accompanied by the threat of execution; all of which were sanctioned by the Church.
Hilberg explains:
The first anti-Jewish policy started in the fourth century after Christ in Rome. In the early 300’s, during the reign of Constantine, the Christian Church gained power in Rome, and Christianity became the state religion. From this period, the state carried out Church policy. For the next twelve centuries, the Catholic Church prescribed the measures that were to be taken with respect to the Jews. Unlike the pre-Christian Romans, who claimed no monopoly on religion and faith, the Christian Church insisted upon acceptance of Christian doctrine.
For an understanding of Christian policy toward Jewry, it is essential to realize that the Church pursued conversion not so much for the sake of aggrandizing its power (the Jews have always been few in number), but because of the conviction that it was the duty of true believers to save unbelievers from the doom of eternal hellfire. Zealousness in the pursuit of conversion was an indication of the depth of faith. The Christian religion was not one of many religions, like other religions. It was the true religion, the only religion. Those who were not in its fold were either ignorant or in error.
The Jews could not accept Christianity.
The same might be said of Islam, though it allowed Jews and Christians, “peoples of the book”, to be dhimmis and pay a tax, Jizya”, for the privilege. The Church also imposed a similar tax on Jews.
In the very early stages of the Christian faith, many Jews regarded Christians as members of a Jewish sect. The first Christians, after all, still observed the Jewish law. They had merely added a few non-essential practices, such as baptism, to their religious life. But this view was changed abruptly when Christ was elevated to godhood. The Jews have only one G-d. That G-d is indivisible. He is a jealous G-d and admits of no other G-ds. He is not Christ, and Christ is not He. Christianity and Judaism have since been irreconcilable. An acceptance of Christianity has since signified an abandonment of Judaism.
With patience and persistence, the Church attempted to convert obstinate Jewry, and for twelve hundred years, the theological argument was fought without interruption. The Jews were not convinced. Gradually the Church began to back its words with force. The Papacy did not permit pressure to be put on individual Jews; Rome never permitted forceful conversions.
However, the clergy did use pressure on the whole. Step by step, but with ever widening effect, the Church adopted “defensive” measures against its passive victims. Christians were “protected” from the “harmful” consequences of intercourse with Jews by rigid laws against intermarriage, by prohibitions of discussions about religious issues, by laws against domicile in common abodes. The Church “protected” its Christians from the “harmful” Jewish teachings by burning the Talmud and by barring Jews from public office.
And yet it is the Jews who are always attacked for their separateness.
The clergy was not sure of its success – hence the widespread practice, in the Middle Ages, of identifying proselytes as former Jews, hence the inquisition of new Christians suspected of heresy, hence the issuance in Spain of certificates of “purity” (limpieza) signifying purely Christian ancestry, and the specification of half new Christians, quarter new Christians, one-eighth new Christians, etc.
Hitler’s racial purity laws found their antecedent and precedent in these laws. And so did his order that Jews identify themselves by wearing a yellow Star of David.
Efforts to convert the Jews were spectacularly unsucessful, even aided by all the restrictions placed on the Jews.
Too much had been invested in twelve hundred years of conversion policy. Too little had been gained. From the thirteenth to the sixteenth centuries, the Jews of England, France, Germany, Spain, Bohemia and Italy were presented with ultimatums which gave them no choice but one: conversion or expulsion.
In 1542 Martin Luther rejected the authority of Rome and started the Lutheran Church. He, too, hated the Jews. He and others who broke away from Rome became known as Protestants. There followed hundreds of years of war between Catholics and Protestants.
At the end of the Eighteenth Century, the French Revolution took place, a by-product of which was the liberation of the French Jews, who thereafter enjoyed equal rights. The armies of the revolution, headed by Napoleon, spread the values of “liberte, fraternite and egalite” to the east, including in Germany and Italy. With the defeat of Napoleon in 1815, the Bourbons in France kept the liberating legislation, but the monarchs in Germany and Italy cancelled it. Nevertheless, Jews embraced the belief, after a taste of liberation, that full equality was the inevitable corollary of the emerging secular-political order throughout Europe. In Germany, Reform Judaism was founded and in Russia and Poland, Jews flocked to the Communist banner.
But many segments of society remained deeply anti-Semitic, leaving many Jews to conclude that the promise of “liberte, fraternite and egalite” was a pipe dream even though the society was now secular. And so was born the the movement for the Auto-Emancipation of the Jews, which became known as Zionism. Jews had to reconstitute themselves as a nation in their own land.
In Christian Europe, the Jews had only to convert to be accepted. The Christians were against the practise of Judaism. In secular Europe, the Jews themselves were rejected as a race. Thus, conversion was not open to them. But expulsion or emigration was still available. Thus millions of Jews in the Pale of Settlement beginning in 1880 emigrated well into the nineteen thirties. Hitler searched in vain for a country to which to expel Germany’s Jews, but no one wanted them. In 1942 he instituted the final solution, extermination.
R. Hilberg in his masterful study, argues:
if we analyze that singular massive upheaval, we discover that most of what happened in those 12 years, 1933 to 1945, had already happened before. The Nazi destruction process did not come out of a void, it was the culmination of a cyclical trend beginning in the Fourth Century in Rome.
During the conversion era, the Church said, “you have no right to live among us as Jews”. Then in the segregation/expulsion process, “you have no right to live among us” and finally in the extermination process, “you have no right to live”.
These progressively more drastic goals brought in their wake a slow and steady growth of anti Jewish action and anti-Jewish thinking…. The German Nazis then, did not discard the past, they built upon it. They did not begin a development, they completed it. In the deep recesses of anti-Jewish history we shall find many of the administrative and psychological tools with which the Nazis implemented their destruction process. In the hollows of the past we shall also discover the roots of the characteristic Jewish response to an outside attack.
To better understand this statement, Hilberg presents a table of Canonical Law restricting the Jews beginning in the Fourth Century opposite which he places similar Nazi measures.
Then writes:
No summation of Canonical Law can be as revealing as a description of the Rome ghetto, maintained by the Papal State until the occupation of the city by the Royal Italian Army in 1870. A German journalist who visited the city in its closing days, published such an account:
“To rent any house or business establishment outside the ghetto boundaries, the Jews needed the permission of Cardinal Vicar. Acquisition of real estate outside the ghetto was prohibited. Trade or industrial products or goods were prohibited. Higher schooling was prohibited.. The professions of lawyer, druggist, notary, painter and architect were prohibited. A Jew could be a doctor provided he confined his practice to Jewish patients. No Jew could hold office. Jews were required to pay taxes like everyone else and, in addition, the following: 1) A yearly stipend for the upkeep of the Catholic officials who supervised the Ghetto Finance Administration and the Jewish Community Organization, 2) A yearly sum of 5250 lira for Casa Pia for missionary work among Jews, 3) A yearly sum of 5250 lira to the Cloister of the Converted for the same purpose. In return the Papal State expended a yearly sum of 1500 lira for welfare work. But no state money was paid for education or the care of the sick.”
Hiberg also provided a table of Pre-Nazi and Nazi Anti-Jewish Measures. As can be seen, the destructive process was at work in Germany long before the Nazis came to power.
But all this in no way is meant to excuse Hitler.
After the Holocaust, the manifestations of antisemitism became very subdued. It was not “cool” to express such feelings in any way. Unfortunately, the haters began expressing the antisemitism as anti-Zionism. These expression are now commonplace and the hatred of Israel is growing exponentially. As a result, the movement to exterminate Israel has become very strong.
But we Jews will survive that too.
***
ADDENDUM 2022
”Ever since Rome adopted Christianity in informally 325 AD and formerly in 381 AD,” the Church vilified the Jews. Christians, for centuries, hated or feared the Jews culminating in the holocaust. There was a little respite during the Enlightenment.. Hitler came along and stoked the fire of hatred using the big lie as a major tool. It was easy to do because any civility that existed was skin deep only, thanks to the Church.
“Mohammed first tried to win the Jews to his side in the 7th Century and modeled his religion on the Hebrew bible.. When the Jews rejected him, he turned on the Jews and rejected them. Then followed 1500 years of Islamic Dhimmitude for the Jews to the present day…Remember this was a time in which the Muslims conquered and converted a huge part of the East. Even so the Jews were better off living among the Muslims then they were living among the Christians.. Under the Muslims, the Jews were considered people of the book and were relegated to dhimmi status but not killed or forced to convert in the main..
“This changed in the 20th Century after the Balfour Declaration.. The Jews reasserted themselves as Jews and not as Dhimmis and this outraged the Muslims.. They wanted us to remain as Dhimmis.
“In 1919 Britain created the position of The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem as the Sunni Muslim cleric in charge of Jerusalem’s Islamic holy places, including the Al-Aqsa Mosque.
“In 1921, , Mohammad Amin al-Husayni was appointed as the Grand Mufti. Unfortunately, he aligned himself with Hitler, and wanted to be in charge of the final solution in the Arab world. And so began the Arab embrace of Jew hatred.
“The PA stoked the fires of antisemitism with the big lie just as Hitler did.. Thus the PA induced propaganda war against the Jews/Israel has led to an exponential rise in antisemitism and Jew-hatred.
“So the cause of much antisemitism over the millennium was .various actors who fanned the flames in order to achieve victory over the Jews. But it all started with the Jew-Hatred of the Church.
@
EJM-
How can you say, “most true Christians are not connected, not involved,
don’t use internet,” etc. I do NOT believe this is so. There is a strong Group of “True Christians” of perhaps millions, , which are very well connected, very involved, and definitely USE internet: They certainly believe themselves to be “true Christians”.
They support Israel against against ALL negative attacks, and tirelessly work to benefit Israel.
There are other “true Christians , of course who believe that they have replaced the Jews as G-Ds Chosen People.. Many in the Military Forces of nearly all countries except Muslim, perhaps, are “true Christians”.
Are you saying that the “true Christian”, climbs up on high pillar for 30-40 years, ir locks himself away in a remote monastery and prays all day…. What??? , Please give a better description, of the daily life of your version of “a true Christian”, of which you undoubtedly seem to be one. This is becoming an interesting top0c.
..
@ EJM_
rms”….
“we strongly condemn violence in all it’s forms” ..Lovely, sweet-natured,nonsense.
What do you do when violently attacked, possible with knives, cudgels of guns…..turn the other “cheek”…abjectly kneel down for the fatal blow run for the nearest policeman, or try to resist, your life in at stake.
One must be careful as to scattering generalities like yours. The consequences from an ignorant, degraded individual who is looking for easy pickings are too lethal.
https://homecomers.org/mirror/martyrs041.htm
Hi Ted
have no quarrel with this?
But are you saying that these obedient Christians have no duty to the world to publicly condemn what is being done in their name. If not them, who?.
Or to condemn what was done by the Church or Christians in centuries past? I think not.
What so few understand is the tiny minority constitutes true Christianity.
How few are actually Christian, not in name only.
While no denomination holds exclusive rights to “Christion”
Most true Christians are not connected, don’t use internet, are not involved in this worlds politics.
We strongly condemn violence in all of it’s forms.
We never participate in war or violence against anyone, ever.
We do not believe in doing anything to anyone accept loving all exactly as Jesus did. That is why the oppressed and downtrodden flocked to him.
And the politicians and leaders hated him,
He did not demonstrate a self righteous, holier than thou attitude.
Do you know even one Christian that actually practices this?
We never owned a slave, we don’t file bankruptcy or divorce our wives.
We believe that Jesus said, not everyone who says Lord, Lord will enter His kingdom is true.
Only those that believe, do His will and keep His commandments, all of them.
And no Christian that does those three things will ever practice violence against anyone, ever, even in self defense.
A side note on how awful we believe war is, If the revolutionary war would not have been fought, neither would the war of 1812, or the civil war. Slaves were freed in the UK in 1833, hence no need to fight if the US would not have rebelled.
Canada did not rebel, is there less freedom in Canada than the US?
You will not find this truth in any history book.
I repeat myself, Jesus said, fear not little flock, it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the Kingdom.
The Catholic/Protestant organization never was a little flock, and never will be.
We are not responsible for what anyone does in the Name of Christianity.
And we completely condemn any violence against any for any reason, especially Jews.
And we have done so for about 2,000 years.
Read the following for atrocities by the CC
I think that Jews should focus entirely on themselves and making aliyah rather than desperately trying to figure out who hates them and why and whose fault all of this really is.
There are signs that there will be serious attempts to destroy Israel in 2022-2023, and if there is no Israel, we are finished.
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/when-the-world-votes-unanimously-against-you-it-is-time-to-wake-up/
Israel made themselves a colony of the US – this is where the greatest problem lies.
@Edgar
The explanation for “Let’s go Brandon”:
https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/01/politics/lets-go-brandon-joe-biden/index.html
The link to the clip is inside the article, it’s on Twitter and was a bit slow to open.
The Explanation (from the BBC World Service)
Last night just past midnight the BBC put this on featuring long time Israel hater Jeremy Bowen – which would be like asking Himmler for his view of the Holocaust. The big question though is where does the bias of Bowen come from? I argue that Bowen and the BBC are representative of British Imperialism. It is not an individual issue at all. The BBC serves always the interests of the British ruling class in the world. So why in the present is the British ruling class opposed to the Jewish state of Israel and supporting Palestinian hatred of Israel. The answer is Antisemitism linked to declining empire and historical new interest – oil. All three. The hatred of Christianity to Judaism returns to the fact the Church was born out of Antisemitism. All of this is totally proven by history. The Church is at the service of Imperialism. Born in that past and adapting it’s self serving interest in the present!
The programme last night by the BBC, the Explanation, actually is quite the explanation in this regard too. For the simple fact it is obvious that Bowen is immediately seeking to distort history. His take begins with Herzl and Zionism. This method is a distortion though because modern Zionism was based on 3000 years of Jewish nation building. The roots of the Zionism of our day lie far in the past. It exists inside of 3000 years of cruel reality. This Bowen seeks to destroy. It is about having a modern homeland in the land they were driven out from. The Arabs, Islam, Christian, Muslim and Imperialism – they are the interlopers! Hence the perverted hatred. The aforementioned interlope on Jewish nationhood that is in essence Jewish land. And perverted hatred is the worst.
@
SEBASTIEN
Surprise surprise…!! By chance I just happened to Key in Brandon on youtube, and lo..there were several 6-7-8 minute excerpts from his books including the Zealotes..
Also a few on the same subject by others…
Scrolling don to near the end , I came across “Let’s Go Brandon’….. !!! Some idiot performer of a kind I suppose. Did not bother further.
@
SEBASTIEN
Was only successful on “My Heritage”, and there, could only get as far as a 14 day free trial, inserting my name and hotmail add. But the “next” wouldn’t budge. don’t know enough about a computer to even know what I did wrong or how to correct it.
So….!!
@
SEBASTIEN
Once again you turn up with the goods. You always seem to. Yes the prices are horrendous. But I’m glad, because I have a few of his books, soft cover. I was very impressed with his clarity and focus.
I don’t get “let’s go Brandon” except that it seems a natural….You caused me to seach all my posts trying to find where I said it.
Since my books are in storage for many years I haven’t read him since then and thanks to you I can read his Zealot investigation and opinion..
I meant to begin with “Very glad to see you back on”, so let me conclude with it- stay for a while. And I’m happy that someone else has heard of Brandon, as nobody else seems to have…
@Edgar G It can be borrowed for an hour at a time at archive.org. I also found the essay Brandon wrote reviewing and critiquing the critiques of his book, entitled, “Jesus and the Zealots:Aftermath” someone uploaded in PDF form on Scribd, Scribd gives free access to a wide selection of books, articles, podcasts for $8 a month. Scribd.com
Wasn’t just Amazon with the crazy prices. Abe Books, which sells used books has it for close to $300. Seems to be a rare, in demand, collectors item.
@Edgar G. Available on Amazon for reasonable prices.
Jesus and the Zealots : A Study of the Political Factor in Primitive Christianity Hardcover – January 1, 1967
by S. G. F. Brandon (Author)
4.8 out of 5 stars 10 ratings
See all formats and editions
Hardcover
$90.45
8 Used from $86.45
1 New from $351.08
1 Collectible from $304.95
Paperback
$394.64
@Edgar G. No pun intended in your choice of reference, I presume?
“How ‘Let’s Go Brandon’ became code for insulting Joe Biden”
https://apnews.com/article/lets-go-brandon-what-does-it-mean-republicans-joe-biden-ab13db212067928455a3dba07756a160
@EJM
All obedient Muslims will become ISIS. Only the nominal do not advocate Jihad.
Exactly the opposite in Christianity,
All obedient Christians are non-violent.
I have no quarrel with this?
But are you saying that these obedient Christians have no duty to the world to publicly condemn what is being done in their name. If not them, who?.
Or to condemn what was done by the Church or Christians in centuries past? I think not.
@ ejm
Forgive me for butting in. But , I believe you are right. All Muslims are not responsible for the ravages of ISIS. This is only because the ethics of modern civilisation have had an effect on them. But the devout Muslim must take at least an associated share of blame. Regarding this “blame” as our advancement from the equally monstrous atrocities of Medieval -and much later- Christianity, to today’s relatively civilised behaviour such as you describe.
The Evangelical Christians, Friends of Israel, stand out.
The ISIS type Muslim is deeply ensconced in 7th century “fairy tales”, which resulted in “Allah or the Sword” , spreading over vast minimally organised areas where still they hold sway.
Which reminds me…you seem to forget , that one of the things that “Jesus” said, was “sell everything and go and buy for yourself swords.”.
This text alone, never mind many other conflicting and aggressive “sayings”, gave great purchase to Biblical Historians, who, for the sake of argument, allowed the existence of a Jesus, but averred that he was one of thr Sicariki/Kanna’im., the Zealot revelutionaries. They were well described by Josephus. Both Menahem and his son (years later) were eventually captured and crucified by the Romans, but that didn’t damp their spirits.
S.G. F. Brandon, a most interesting and methodical biblical scholar, makes a very good case for this. And he was not alone.
Ted, You said
That’s not what I meant.
Muslims must be accountable for what ISIS does in the name of Islam. They cannot say that what ISIS does doesn’t reflect on their religion. Of course it does. Good Muslims have a duty to eradicate Islamist doctrine else they will be tarred with the same brush.
There is a big difference between the analogy of Islam and Christianity.
All obedient Muslims will become ISIS. Only the nominal do not advocate Jihad.
Exactly the opposite in Christianity,
All obedient Christians are non-violent.
Those who practice violence are not Christian, regardless what they call themselves.
Mahatma Gandhi said, I really like your Christ, Christians, not so much, they are so unlike your Christ.
Gandhi apparently never met a practicing Christian.
Is there such a thing as Jewish in name only?
How about Muslim in name only.
There are/were billions of Christians in name only.
I repeat, Jesus (who was born a Jew) said Why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not he things that I say? .
@ PELONI-
To get such plaudits from a person of your erudition is praise indeed. I thank you for it, As the saying goes. “It’s nice to feel appreciated”…. and that’s how it makes me feel.
|
As I have a birthday arriving in about 5 weeks, I’ll regard both TED’S and your laudations as natal day gifts. They seem to come around so quickly that they crowd against one another.
One thing I meant to include , but became sidetracked with the rubbish, is that MY own opinion, is that, the age of around 13 is about the time that a young boy enters puberty and becomes capable of procreating. And was eventually made into a celebration. In Torah times children grew up very quickly, and it was even a matter of survival..
@Raphael
That’s not what I meant.
Muslims must be accountable for what ISIS does in the name of Islam. They cannot say that what ISIS does doesn’t reflect on their religion. Of course it does. Good Muslims have a duty to eradicate Islamist doctrine else they will be tarred with the same brush.
If the actions of a few Christians or Muslims sully the image of Christianity or Islam, they must condemn said actions and eradicate the few, Otherwise their brand will be tarnished.
The same goes for Jews.
@ RAPHAEL,
Your comment about the Barmitzvah boy is just arrant nonsense, and you know it. This outworn cliche is often used by Anti-Semites, You should be ashamed to mention it. You KNOW it is a tradition stemming from about the 16-17th century only. The 13 year old buy that YOU heap all sorts of adult responsibilities on, is the same after the ritual as he was when only 12 years and 364 days old. He has his hormonal and other battles ahead of him. As well as his new clothes and sparkling bicycle.
Not before, of course, he counts the number of fountain pens he received as gifts.
Today, and for many years before I was born, it was/is an excuse for a simcha.. In the US, it has, naturally, become a HUGE money churner, for all concerned in the “business”…
I see other posters also getting into the mix, and to save posting separately, I’ll mention just a few. like “The Whore of Babylon”, beloved of religious lunatics…I never met her -that Nafka. “The Wandering Jew:, The Protocols”, and other garbled rubbish, are all from the same cess pit, but of different toxic effects.
Even the “Lost Ten Tribes”, is related to them.
So enough is enough. !! For me anyhow. You surely know that TIME eventually changes, either for better or worse, the result is yet to come.
I feel embarrassed to be discussing such garbage on a Jewish site noted for the intellectuality of it’s posters- generally that is. You guys seem to get great pleasure form agreeing with one another , and not entertaining lucid arguments on either side.
@ RAPHAEL
I think you are wrong. Everybody in the Western Civilised world knows what the meaning of “Church” is.. It used to be only (and still is for Catholics, the Catholic Church, The Russian Orthodox Church, After Luther, for his folowers, it was the Protestant Church,, of various splinter sects. They fought bitter, bloody wars over the
doctrines, but those against the Jews were still the same.. Anglccism, Calvinism, Wesleyism…tTy all had their anti-Jew section.
The weary treks of expulsions from one Principality or Duchy, either Catholic or Protestant, fto another, or centuries in Europe, tells the poignant story. They would be sheltered, used , wrung out, and then deported. Lenient rulers were put under heavy pressure from their CHURCHES.
They either had to kill them or convert them. It was only that civilisation marched slowly on, and more sensible, liberated from dogma prominent people appeared that it became less bloody but turned to Missionising. .The Founding of the US, Oliver Cromwell, and others, were big factors.
The “churches”, which, you say, had nothing to do with the Holocaust, were not yet formed, but when they were,”4 Sqare ” “Baptist”t etc, their doctrines in at least ONE clause, was as antagonistic to Jews as the major entities.
“The Jews killed “Christ”…I do no include present day Christian Evangelists in this mish mash)
So I don’t see, (again only MY thought) that your post says anything constructive
This is not to denigrate but merely to disagree with you.
@ejm , I like your example:
That’s spot-on, I think.
@Ted Belman, I must disagree with your comment:
That is so easy to say, but totally unfair.
Let me ask a question. When a Jewish boy becomes ‘bar mitzvah’, does he not at that point become accountable for his own actions, and are his parents not released from responsibility for any sins he commits against Torah commandments, even though he still bears his father’s name?
Do we not all bear (alone) the responsibility for our sins?
You are right Ted,
But the whore of Babylon is NOT the church, neither are her daughters.
(Rev 17:5)
This godless institution does not represent Christianity anymore than Biden, Harris Pelosi, and their ilk represent America. Hopefully this makes sense.
Interestingly, the whore and her daughters hated all God’s people.
True Christians and Jews. (and still do)
Jesus said, Love your enemies, do good to those who curse you.
Jesus said the time is coming when they (the whore) will kill you and think they are doing God a service.
Jesus said, why do you call me Lord. Lord and do not the things that I say.
Those that do not what He says are NOT Christian!
And bear no responsibility for what the whore does, or did.
You have my email, I would like to send you links to prove what I say if you are interested in truth.
“The Church” is the institution representing and governing Christianity and Christians..
It may or may not embrace Christian values. This raises another question. What are the Christian Values?. Doesn’t the Pope who is at the head of the Church decide?. Are there different values for Christians and the Church?. Are Christian values what they preach or what they practice.
In any event, the Church and the Christians must take responsibility for what is done in their.name.
Interesting article,
However based on the huge misconception that the “Church” is Christian.
No one is vegetarian unless they follow the rules, don’t eat meat.
likewise no is Christian unless they follow the rules. Resist not evil.
Christians never persecuted anyone, ever.
I quote from the Jewish encyclopedia, ” the Book of Revelation remains, under its Christian cloak, a Jewish document.”
With this in mind read chapter 17 and 18 from Revelation.
This is clearly describing the Catholic Church and all who practice evil as this wicked institution.
The Catholic church, (CC) is not Christian, never was, never will be.
The call is clear in chapter 18:4
Come out of her my people, lest you partake of her sins and receive of her plagues.
The Protestant movement came out of the great whore but as one old minister said, it did not come out far enough.
However the true church existed since Jesus founded it, although tormented and killed, persecuted and butchered as were the Jews.
Catholic Cardinal Hosius ( president of the counsel of Trent) in the 15th century wrote thus, If we would not have put the knife to the baptists for the past twelve hundred years they would swarm in greater numbers that all the reformers.
Jesus said, fear not little flock, it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the Kingdom. The “church that killed Jews and Christians was not and is not a litte flock.
A 15th century publication details much and can be read online,
homecomers.org/mirror
@Kossi and other Christians friends here on Israpundit
I think Edgar’s well stated comments on your people are well earned so I will highlight them again here:
For my part I would like to note that it is only with a great effort that evil practices well established as routine and normal, after hundreds of years, could be so strongly set aside. It is a true statement of the modern character of your people to be able to both recognize the past as profane and reform you community practices as you have. You hold my strong praise and very great admiration, for what its worth, for blazing a brighter future for both our peoples. Additionally, I thank you for both your strong friendships and your many supports, all of which are most welcome.
@Edgar
I have to echo Ted’s perfect comment that your knowledge is truly breathtaking. Your extensive encyclopedic collection of details is evermore enhanced by the ability to examine them from both a broader and more precise level of context – the mark of a great historian. I have read on Israpundit for many years prior to my postings here, and your comments have always served to enlighten me on too many matters, some of which I had previously felt I had a certain command, even as I came to see them with new eyes through your summaries. So well done once again.
How do you define “The Church”? It means vastly different things to different people. I can see, perhaps, how some people might be tempted to say that “the Church” was responsible for the Holocaust, but others can rightfully say that “the Church” had nothing whatsoever to do with the Holocaust. How can these two views be reconciled? Is one wrong and one right? The problem is in which definition of “the Church” you are using. We are truly talking about two (or more) completely different things, while trying to use the same word. It can’t be done, nor should it be.
I am distressed by this anti-Christian thread. Stalin (in Hell ) and Putin must be smiling. Soviet propaganda still lives on !
I have already posted earlier evidence above of the Holocaust origins: racialist Aryan beliefs promoted by National Socialists, Hitlers hatred for BOTH Christians and Jews, and Hitlers friend: the Muslim Mufti of Jerusalem – who opposed Germanys earliest plans to expel Jews, esp to Muslim majority Palestine ! All confirmed in the historical record and by Israel’s Yad Vashem (the World Holocaust Remembrance Center)
The addition to this thread of centuries of evil Catholic and Lutheran historical behavior towards Jews is IMO simply more confirmation of a genuine desire by Leftists to divide Jews and Christians (natural allies in the fight against the MODERN-day evils of atheism, socialism, and radical Islam ).
That such Jew-hating evil occurred at the hands of political and religious leaders.. (over many centuries ! ) does not confirm Christian doctrine or Church policies as the root cause of Hitler or Germany’s hatred for Jews and the Holocaust in the 20th century.
Surely such policies or doctrine would be identified by Yad Vashem – which has as its mission – the study of the Holocausts origins, and prevention of future genocidal events ?
Is Yad Vashem complicit ? in covering up the origins of the Holocaust ?
I think not. They place the blame squarely on the shoulders of Hitler and Germanys National Socialist racialist Aryan Nation policies and beliefs.
# TED_
Thank you for your kind words, which honour me. . But as an explanation, I have been reading since age 2 1/2, and progressed to adult books by age 6 or 7. Since then I’ve read every day, I have some 7000 books, and read as many more in various libraries. am about 1/10h of the way through Gutenberg, Roy Glashan’s Library and a few more..Often read through the night beginning another book around 4-5 a.m. It became, and is a settled obsession. I have been interested, at different periods in different subjects reading everything I could on them.
I have Meinertzhagen’s Diaries. Very revealing. (I have Potash & Perlmutter)
After barmitzvah, became particularly interested in books with Jewish content and have acquired quite a few. At one time, I collected material for a book, to debunk Christianity, but other matters interfered, so it never was completed. But my memory, , has always been very good
Today, and for many years, I have read voraciously for about 15 hours a day. every day. And all subjects, now going back over some early Edgar Rice Burroughs, for about the 2rd go round. A few months ago I went through Harrison Ainsworth, then Fenimore Cooper, Earlier I disposed of Thackeray for about the 4th time. Never liked Dickens. Like O.Henry. Many biographies and Auto’s. US Civil War, Napoleonic period, Betsey Balcome,, Gorrequer’s Diary. (highly recommended to those interested in the Exile at St. Helena). Charles Lever and Somerville and Ross I love. And much more.
If you want to read a REALLY Humourous essay please read Mark Twain’s criticism of Fenimore Cooper, entitled “Fenimore Coopers Literary Offences”.
It is a howl from start to finish, and I believe absolutely true, although drawn with a “long bow”-or “tongue-in-cheek.” Twain quotes directly from Fenimore’s texts.
Sorry for such a long “babble”, but when I talk about books…..this was actually very short, -not long.
Yes Kossi has a lot of interesting and factual content, but with just a quick glance i waa not able to more than pick out an item or two.
One thing Kossl., Thr Roman Empire did NOT become Christian in 325. Christianity merely became an “accepted” religion., along with many others. The Empire was Pagan, along with it’s god Emperors until Theodosius in about 380, as I previously posted) and then not by conviction, or proselytizing, or conversion, but only by Imperial Edict.
Most of the Empire only became Christian, centuries later.
A little story…but true, and amply documented. The last place to become Christianised was along the Baltic Coast, specifically Lithuania, in about the 14th cent.
But a century or so before, inroads had reached around Northern France and the Denmark area.. There are many written documents of the social aspects, where the various chiefs and prominent men were, on meeting one another, boasting (or complaining) about the numbers of white cassocks or shifts, they had acquired from missionaries, who at that time, would preach, and baptise, none of which was understood by the pagans, but also they would bestow on a new “convert” a white shift to emphasise that he was now “clean” of paganism.
I have read where some had as many as 12 or more white shifts, and it became a competitive “sport” to acquire more., There are recorded instances of some complaining to others that they had fewer than their companions.
I am grateful for the comments by Kossi and Edgar which add to my knowledge.
Edgar your extensive reading and knowledge are truly breathtaking. I will try to read The Devil and the Jew. It sounds very interesting.
I totally agree with TED. ..But the Church did not just “plant the seeds” , they nurtured them into full grown, blazing, out of control holocausts. There were many of these, aptly described indiscriminate slaughters, They were minor ONLY by comparison with the German slaughter to end all slaughters.
And they began long before the 4th century. Do not be fixed in the 4th century Ted, have a look at a few seminal publications which more aptly describe the beginning and massive growth of Jew-hate-murder industry, which really has never stopped, although temporarily faltered now and then.
Read Solomon Zeitlin’s “The Rise and Fall of The Judean State”, the early chapters show the earliest beginning of Jew Hatred, based then more in superstition than Christina Dogma, which however, was never absent.
Then Joshua Trachtenberg’s “The Devil and The Jew”. a rightly described book as being the definitive book on the history of irrational hatred of the Jew.
Do not be stuck in the 4th century. I suspect that you are meaning the Council of Nicaea, in 325, presided over by Constantine, a lifelong pagan and a god himself being the embodiment of Sol Invictus and a lot more. This was a political arrangement not a religious one, for Constantine.
The first Christian emperor was Theodosius 2 around 380 , and then only in later life, after he became very ill.
The pope cabal, were almost unrelentingly Jew Haters, except perhaps for Alexander 6th, the father of the Borgias, and several other children. he was more a fond family man than a Pope.
I don’t want to go into your article Ted, in any detail, but please recall that centuries before Nicaea (where a few “bishops” were murdered in doctrinal quarrels) the Church Fathers (so-called) were violently Jew haters, issuing tracts and denunciations against us. The more they did this the more famous they became in Church History.
And, going into the Torah, they fabricated and twisted texts to show “prophesies” against the Jews. Eusebius, the Church “Historian” was acknowledged by today’s experts, as a prime example of “interpolation” as required, To clarify…”interpolation” it is a polite way of saying “pious fraud”. The ends justified the means.
Luther , after a beginning where he tried to entice the Jews to his “new” faith…-in vain-, violently denounced and persecuted them , said they should all be locked in their synagogues and burnt up. Bestowed “the Synagogue of Satan” on us.
It is a major credit to today’s Christian Community, which totally supports Israel, that they have relinquished, the wickedness of the past. All credit to them. They are good people on the whole. Their expectation of an outcome suitable to them, may not be the same as ours, but nevertheless they are staunch friends.
I could go on for hours, but much of the above I have posted here more than once with little notice, nor response.
Another book I HIGHLY recommend is “The Nizzahon Vetus” Edited by (Eabbi) David Berger,, with an excellent Foreword, and a page by page English translation. Zeitlin and Bergman were issued by The Jewish Publication Society. |Not sure about Trachtenberg, but easily obtained, Library or purchase.
TED-ARE most of our readers Christian..???????? I thought the opposite.
Ted, your article about the horrors the Roman Catholic Church’s has inflicted on the Jews should be widely disseminated. As an Evangelical Protestant (still protesting the theological abominations of the Catholic Church!), I would like add to the discussion on a few points that I think are important.
Belman:
Throughout Western history, three consecutive policies have been applied against Jewry in its dispersion. The policies referred to included 1) conversion, 2) expulsion and 3) extermination. The first and second were often accompanied by the threat of execution; all of which were sanctioned by the Church. Hilberg explains:
The first anti-Jewish policy started in the fourth century after Christ in Rome. In the early 300’s, during the reign of Constantine, the Christian Church gained power in Rome, and Christianity became the state religion.
Kossian:
I fully agree that this was the history of the Roman Catholic Church starting in the 4th Century. When true (PreRoman) Christianity became the State religion under Emperor Constantine, Christianity had become fairly prevalent and the State saw this as a way to consolidate power. Christianity (from a Protestants view) became completely corrupt both theologically and part of that was the Catholic theological underpinnings against the Jews. For a detailed but concise understanding of the theological errors of Roman Catholicism vs Biblical Christianity, see Keith Greens https://www.spiritwatch.org/catchron1.htm . These differences cannot be overstated. As a Protestant, I have had conversations with many Catholics and found that almost none have any Biblical understanding and only follow and trust Pope to Priest.
It is often left out though, that Pre Roman Christianity, while certainly evangelistic (and the vast majority of early Believers in Jesus as Messiah, were Jews, as recorded in the Book of Acts in the New Testament) to my knowledge did not forcibly convert people. While there are some references in Acts to the Jewish religious leaders being responsible for the killing of their own Messiah, that is not a racist Jewish thing as again, virtually all the early Christians were Jewish and elsewhere in the New Testament there is the understanding theologically (largely ignored by Catholics) that each of us are responsible for the death of Christ by our sins.
Belman: In 1542 Martin Luther rejected the authority of Rome and started the Lutheran Church. He, too, hated the Jews.
Kossian: Luther persecuted Jews too. It has taken many hundreds of years for the falsehoods of Roman Catholicism theology to be torn out of Protestant theology and depending on Protestant denomination, (especially those whose Leftist political beliefs have largely usurped religion), there remains today much Jew hatred. But by and large it is also true the the more conservative Evangelical denominations are about the only only true supporters of Jews and Israel. Few secular people care, except perhaps from a military perspective. It was also almost exclusively, the Protestants in Europe, like the Corrie Ten Boom family who all but Corrie Perished in death camps) that were those who risked their own lives to save Jews. Also, among many of particular note was Protestant pastor and theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who was involved in plot to kill Hitler as part of his Christian duty. https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/gallery/german-churches-and-the-nazi-state-photographs
Lastly, there are Evangelicals such as myself, who have done everything possible to save Jews from the exterminations of the covid vaccines, which as in the days of Noah, corrupt human genes. G-d has compelled me to do so. Interestingly, I have talked to many of my insurance agency clients, and almost without exception, those with the most spiritual connection are those who are refusing the shots. My guess is that is true in Israel as well. The Pope, of course, is advocating covid vaccines.
Trevor Loudon has a new film with Director Judd Saul: “Enemies Within: The Church.” https://enemieswithinthechurch.com The movie is available on DVD, live stream and for theaters – it is intended for individual and group showings.
In case you may have missed it, Trevor Loudon was interviewed as guest on the King’s Report on 2021.11.22. I encourage you watch this 30 minute interview with Dr. Richard Panzer and Trevor Loudon which is posted at https://rumble.com/vpmd2v-enemies-within-the-church-interview-with-trevor-loudon-11222021.html.
Trevor Loudon discusses the infiltration of Marxism into the mainstream Churches that has been taking place since the 1920’s. Now, in the past fifteen years, there has been a concerted effort to infiltrate Marxism into the Evangelical and Southern Baptist Churches. If this infiltration is successful in moving the congregations to the Left it will have a massive impact on the United States of America. The Evangelicals and Southern Baptists are the people who voted for Ronald Reagan and Donald Trump and set back the Marxists Agenda for decades.
‘Enemies Within the Church’ will draw a line in the sand to see what side you are on. It might cause some people to make a better choice in what Church they attend. Trevor Loudon says the Marxists analyzed what makes America strong and determined it’s Christianity so Christianity (Churches) are the main target.
The movie is intended for the congregations because if the Pastors are doing and saying nothing about the infiltration of Marxism into Churches in America then they are not credible. We are inviting Trevor Loudon to a conference we are planning in early Spring. We welcome your comments and opinions about the movie ‘Enemies Within The Church’.
Most of your readers are Christians. The only reason Israel has any support in the west is because of Christians. Unsubscribed. Go f— yourself.
“Liberal Jews”: the lost XIVth tribe (forever)!
A very thought-provoking article. I will tell you that the only way anti-Semitism will vanish is if our entire humanity, with its 200 nations, became united as the United Planet Earth. It is even in the Bible. There will come a time when nations are no more, and the welfare of the planet is foremost.
It is said that environmentalism would become the new religion. That is, the welfare of Earth, not just a nation or a block of nations, would be the central belief. This time will soon arrive.
Jesus predicted that there would come a time when no nations would exist. So did Nostradamus. But before that occurs, there will be a great war and changes in the Earth. Put simply, the Third World War and changes because of global warming. Continents will change shape, and land will go under water. Other land will arise from the sea.
A century after the start of the Second World War, 1939, Earth will finally be united. This will take place in 2039. That is more than 150 years after the United States adopted a strong federal constitution .
A century after the Great Depression of 1929, the Great Flood shall come. It will be in the year 2029. The cause shall be global warming, a shift of the poles, and the Earth’s resistance to a tyrant who wishes to control it.
The Planetary Reconstruction shall take place at least a century, from 2029 – 2150 or more. By then, antisemitism will be gone.
“The Holocaust was Caused by Hitler who followed Church doctrine and practices”
This idea is likely the spawn of Soviet propaganda… the same which tried to identify the wartime Pope Pius XI as “Hitlers Pope” (recall the Catholic Church under Pope John-Paul championed Polish anti-communisim and led to the fall of entire Soviet Union. Marxists everywhere have always feared Christianity !
The threat to Jews and Israel is the same as it was in the early 20th century. Leftists, Socialists, atheism, and Islam. That includes the Christian Left which supports Hamas and BDS.
Hitlers friend and likely progenitor of the Holocaust was the Mufti of Jerusalem !
Hitler did not follow ANY church doctrine. He almost destroyed the Lutheran German church and abused German Catholics as well. He is reputed to have tried to force a union between the German Catholic Church and the Lutheran Church. His National Socialist doctrine was a “pseudo-religious cult” in no way consistent with ANY Christian teaching.
At Yad Vashem, I learned about early Christian antisemitism (rooted in the brutal Jewish-Roman wars), 19th century economic antisemitism (rooted in envy), and 20th century National Socialism antisemitism (rooted in racialism)… No where in that sacred place, is Hitler portrayed as a follower of Catholic doctrine.
Historian Burleigh calls Hitler “a lazy, dilettantish autodidact rather than a systematic thinker … a cavernous blank behind the impassioned postures … rabidly anticlerical, rarely missing an opportunity to make snide and vulgar comments, in private, about the pope, priests and pastors. His sallies into theological matters were unimpressive, the musings of a saloon-bar bore.”
Critics who claim that Hitler’s persecution of the Jews was the logical consequence of the Church’s anti-Judaism seem unaware that this argument was regularly advanced by the Nazis and Fascists themselves, only to be as often refuted by Church spokesmen.
Six months after Pacelli’s election as Pope Pius XII, he issued his first encyclical, Summi pontificatus. The New York Times called it “a powerful attack on totalitarianism and the evils which he considers it has brought upon the world. … It is Germany that stands condemned above any country or any movement in this encyclical – the Germany of Hitler and National Socialism.”
The head of Hitler’s Gestapo agreed: “The encyclical is directed exclusively against Germany, both in ideology and in regard to the German-Polish dispute” — a reference to the pope’s explicitly expressed sympathy for Catholic Poland, then at the beginning of its long agony at the hands of Nazis and Soviets alike. If Vatican Radio soon ceased broadcasting accounts of these atrocities, this was in response to pleas from bishops in Poland, who reported that the broadcasts had provoked reprisals which worsened the suffering of their people.
“The Church’s response to Mussolini’s racial laws was unequivocal. “It is not possible for Christians to take part in anti-Semitism,” the aged Pius XI told a group of Belgian pilgrims in September 1938. “Spiritually we are Jews.” Both the Pope and Pacelli (later Puis XII) materially aided Jews… (John Jay Hughes, May 18, 2007 7:45 NRO)
@ seymour:
80 percent of American Jews vote Democrat but, for the last 70 years, at least, it has been the Republican Party, far more than the Dems, that has been supportive of Jews and Judiasm. No? Compare Ike and Trump with Obama and Roosevelt.
In Canada the same situation exists. We Jews were supported most by the Conservatives, Diefenbaker and Harper, but neither received much Jewish support at the polls. Going back to the pre WWII era it was W.L. Mackenzie King, the LIBERAL Prime Minister who, referring to the admission to Canada of Jews escaping Nazi persecution in Europe, famously stated “None is too many” and he continued to receive the support of our people at the polls.
“But we Jews will survive that too.”
Well “we” survived the Holocaust. But how many didn’t? Based on 80
Percent American Jews voting for Democrats there’s no reason to be complacent. American Jews (and Canadian I would guess) are good examples of the aphorism “Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.”
@ keelie:
I highly endorse Keelie’s implied recommendation to read “Constantines Sword: The Church and the Jews” by James Carroll. It’s a comprehensive study of anti-Semitism from the crucifixion to the Holocaust. It’s was a “headshaker” for me as well. The salient takeaway after reading this book is the fact the anti-Semitism has been thoroughly ingrained into the the essence of Western consciousness for 2000 years. Anti-Semitism is here to stay. No amount of Holocaust education, interfaith dialogue, whatever, will eradicate Jew hatred. The only defence against anti-Semitism is self-defence as history teaches us that anti-Semitism ultimately leads to murder. In the final analysis, it is axiomatic that any Jew who is not a Zionist is an idiot who is ignorant or denies the history of this most enduring hatred.
Raphael Said:
People do not know how bad Christianity was to the Jews beginning in 325 AD. But knowing this, makes it all the more remarkable that the evangelical Christians have escaped the siren call and are now Israel’s fervent supporter.
I in no way smear them by writing about it. In fact, their acheivement is all the more remarkable and they should be praised for the turnaround.
@ archie:
That’s a very ambitious book. I hope I get a chance to read it, someday. On the face of it, it seems rather absurd to try to connect Hitler and health food fad diets. That said it may well be so, as we witness the current pervasive, farcical attacks on every facet of Western culture.
@ Ted Belman:
Yes, the Roman Catholic church has always been highly problematic both in doctrine, and in actions. To my mind, it is unfortunate that when the word “Christian” is used, many people, especially outside of the US, automatically think “Catholic”.
I admit up front that I am not a scholar on the subject of historical anti-semitism, but from what I have read, Hitler’s anti-semitism was more of a parallel track, with traditional “christian” anti-semitism, rather than springing from it. Hitler did not get his Jew hatred directly from the church. As a matter of fact, Hitler was an avowed anti-christian occultist, and also persecuted many devout Christians, especially those who helped Jews, during the war.
While historical Christian anti-semitism is certainly a matter of deep shame and guilt, trying to tie Hitler and modern-day Christianity together is a disappointing distortion of reality. In 2019, alone, 2.5 million Christian tourists visited Israel, and need I even mention that Israel is supported by the greatest Christian, Jew-loving, nation in the world.
Yes, Christians have a shameful history of anti-semitism, but is it really a good idea to tar and feather your friends, for the sins of their ancestors?
Email rec’d:
Extremely important book on the roots of anti-semitism as a function of the rise of Enlightenbment romanticism and its continuation into German romanticism by U of Georgia classicist Dorothy Figueiras – “Aryans, Jews, Brahmins: Theorizing Authority Through Myths of Identity”.
This is my Amazon review of the book_
I’m not a quarter of the way through this book and yet it is recognizable as one of the most important books I’ve ever had the pleasure of reading. One cannot properly understand Western History since the Enlightenment without knowing its contents. Ms. Figueira is an erudite scholar citing reference upon reference in the philosophical, philological and anthropological literature of the Romantic movement with special attention on the influence of Far Eastern exoticism upon a European culture searching for some way to eclipse the power of a corrupt church and its Old Testament antecedents. From Voltaire and Rousseau to Nietsche, we see how ill conceived, unscholarly and politically motivated concepts of the Hindu scriptures slowly and inexorably pushed mainstream and heretic writers, poets, composers and philosophers of the 1800’s and early 1900’s towards anti-semitism, racism and caste based economics. These occult saturated concepts fed directly into the twisted cosmologies, sociologies and ideologies of the various proto Nazi occultists such as Lanz Von Liebenfels, Hans Horbigger, Houston Stewart Chaimberlain, Arthur de Gobineau, Helena Blavasky and others, which groundwork shot Adolph Hitler & Co. out of a circus canon and into the pages of abject history.
Finally one can assemble from the facts in this book, a big picture account of, not only the Nazi phenomenon, but a host of satellite and derivative social agglutinations such as radical environmentalism and Nature worship in general, New Age spirituality, alternative healing, various “health food” diet fads, eugenics, contemporary occultism and other so-called “progressive”: throwbacks. Without this overarching interpretive framework, we could never fully understand the current mania for dissatisfaction with Western values among various irrationalist demographics which represent an infantile, if sublimated, id monster overlay upon human affairs. I’m hoping that this book represents an emerging school of thought in academia and I look forward to the fruits of its seeding.
First we have to understand that no matter what, “Jesus the Jew” had nothing whatsoever to do with the Church, which, as this author said, was defined and set up almost 400 years after Jesus walked the Earth.
The newly established Church went out of its way to turn the Jewishness of Jesus on its head, establishing ideas which were in many cases diametrically the opposite which he as a Jew, would have practised.
Now as for this:
It is the most fundamentally true statement written by the author. Christianity was established at Nicea as a means to take over and control pagan Europe as it was then. In order to do this, it was essential to have an “other” that could be used as a convenient scapegoat (a concept of the Jews), and it was thus that the Jews were defamed from the outset. So the Church was essentially based on lies propagated from its initial and subsequent hierarchies, down to the people; the masses kept in ignorance.
The book I read on the subject was called “Constantines Sword: The Church and the Jews” by James Carroll, a former Catholic priest. It’s what I would call a “headshaker” in that when you read it (and it’s a big book), you end up shaking your head so much that you think you have developed a “palsy”.
As for the current attitude of the Church in the Middle East, if one reads Giulio Meotti’s book, “J’Accuse: The Vatican Against Israel” (advertised above right on this site), you will see that the Church, having defined the Jews as being cursed for all eternity, are actively working to ensure this definition will remain correct… for eternity. If the Jews are successful in re-creating their own state it would be a slap in the face of the Church hierarchies in the Middle East. Thus they are, by their policies, condemning to death their own flocks directly, and Western Civilization in the somewhat longer term.