The Anniversary of Oslo: 20 Years of Fiction, Fantasy and Failure

By Matthew M. Hausman

The Oslo Accords have dictated the quest for Arab-Israeli peace since the 1990s, and yet they constitute a profound threat to Israeli sovereignty in the Jewish homeland.  Focused on validating Palestinian peoplehood, the Oslo process came to control the dialogue as if it had been the paradigm from the beginning.  However, at the time of its inception Oslo was only the latest in a succession of resolutional frameworks after San Remo, the League of Nations Mandate, and U.N. Resolution 242, all of which had presumed the historicity of Jewish claims, not the ascendancy of a Palestinian nationalism that did not yet exist.

Indeed, until the mid- to late-1960s, the Arab-Muslim world had steadfastly refused to impute a separate national identity to Arabs who resided in Mandate lands before 1948, the majority of whom were immigrants or the progeny of immigrants who had no ancestral connection to the land.  Palestinian nationality was invented only later as a dissimulative tool for repudiating Jewish historical claims.  The Palestinians have never seriously sought peace with Israel, and their push last year for upgraded U.N. status served only to illustrate their cynical contempt for both concept and process.

Article 31 of the Oslo Accords specifically states: “Neither side shall initiate or take any step that will change the status of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip pending the outcome of the permanent status negotiations.”  The Palestinian Authority’s U.N. initiative clearly violated this provision and arguably abrogated the accords.  Although this breach was glaring, it was by no means the Palestinians’ first substantive violation.  Since the beginning of the Oslo process, the PA has failed to honor its obligations, minimal though they have been compared to the demands placed on Israel.  In contrast, Israel has honored her commitments, even when doing so has threatened her security and national integrity.

Israel granted Palestinian autonomy in much of Judea and Samaria, permitted the PA to arm itself, unfroze and transferred funds to the Palestinians, and fueled a territorial economy that provides the highest standard of living in the Arab-Muslim world.  She has also tolerated Palestinian military activity, though the PA’s security forces have been linked to terrorism, and has continued to service the electrical and utility needs of the territories.  As a recent concession to induce the Palestinians back to the negotiating table, Israel released from her prisons a cohort of jihadists and terrorists responsible for the deaths of many men, women and children.

In contrast, the PA has failed to renounce terrorism, foreswear antisemitic incitement, or truly amend the language of its charter calling for Israel’s destruction, despite ambiguous claims to the contrary.  It has also stated repeatedly that it will never recognize a Jewish state.  Consequently, no one should have been surprised when the Palestinians walked away from negotiations after Israel took preventive military action against three terrorists in Ramallah who were poised to attack Israeli soldiers and civilians in Bet El.

Ever since the signing of the Interim Agreement of 1995 (“Oslo II”), the PA has been in perpetual breach of Article XVII (1a), which prohibits it from operating in Jerusalem and deciding “issues that will be negotiated in the permanent status negotiations: Jerusalem, settlements, specified military locations, Palestinian refugees, borders, foreign relations and Israelis.”  The PA has breached this provision by illegally operating ministries and institutions throughout Jerusalem.  The rogues’ gallery of unlawful PA entities includes: the Palestinian Ministry of Education, which disseminates antisemitic and anti-Western educational materials; the Ministry for Jerusalem Affairs, which organizes and sponsors protests against Israel; the Ministry of Information/WAFA, an official Palestinian news agency that routinely publishes antisemitic content; and the Office of the Mufti of Jerusalem and the Holy Land, which prohibits land sales to Jews, denies the historical Jewish connection to the Temple Mount, rejects Israel’s right to exist, and sponsors sermons at the Al-Aksa Mosque calling for jihad and genocide.

The same hypocrites who accuse Israel of obstructing peace routinely ignore the PA’s blanket disregard for a treaty that it endorsed officially, albeit disingenuously.  They denounce Israel for violating the accords, although she is the only signatory to have upheld her obligations.  The refusal of the Obama Administration and the European Union to condemn PA violations, and their willingness instead to reward the Palestinians for their continuing acts of incitement, violence and terror, only reinforce the need for Israel to reject outside pressure in favor of alternatives that make historical and strategic sense.

The land-for-peace formula presumes that the conflict is about geography and that all the Arabs want is yet another independent state of their own.  However, the refusal to recognize Israel’s right to exist and the doctrinal prohibition against permanent peace with a subjugated people expose the concept as an exercise in taqiyya – religiously mandated dissimulation for the purpose of deceiving “infidels” and furthering the aims of jihad.

Many people today believe that creating an independent state called Palestine will resolve the Arab-Israeli conflict and bring peace to the Mideast.  However, this belief presumes that the Palestinians – not the Jews – were indigenous to the Land of Israel, that they lived there for thousands of years until their displacement in 1948, that the Jews are colonial occupiers, and that the conflict is driven by Palestinian dislocation.  In truth, however, the Palestinians are historical latecomers to the former Mandate lands.  There never was a country called Palestine or an ancestral, native culture that could be remotely construed as “Palestinian.”  Only the Jews have had a continuous presence in and connection to the land since antiquity.

 

The Arab-Israeli conflict is not a dispute over the rights of the Palestinians.  If it were, Jordan and Egypt would have created a Palestinian state when they occupied Judea, Samaria and Gaza from 1948 to 1967.  However, there was no outcry for the establishment of a Palestinian state – either from the world community or from the Palestinians themselves – during the nearly 20 years of illegal occupation by Egypt and Jordan.

The ugly truth is that the Arab-Israeli conflict is not about repatriating Palestinians to a land they never owned in the first place, but about destroying the Jewish State.  Establishing a Palestinian state will not facilitate peace because the ultimate objective of the conflict is the extermination of Israel and her people, not amicable coexistence.  The two-state paradigm is merely a stealth strategy in a war of annihilation that is being waged against Israel in many forms and on many fronts, and the creation of a Palestinian state is intended only as the first step towards achieving this malevolent goal

The Arab-Muslim goal of destroying Israel has never changed, only the method for achieving it.  Those who naïvely believe the PA has ever acted in good faith would do well to review its charter, which refuses to recognize a Jewish State, or examine its officially sanctioned educational curricula, which teach genocidal antisemitism and revisionist history to impressionable school children.  The purpose of this indoctrination is not to teach truth or morality, but to assure the growth of yet another generation willing to kill and be killed for a cause that is based on hatred, rejectionism and myth.

Israel cannot survive as a secure Jewish homeland by continuing down the Oslo path or by participating in a process imposed by outside powers that respect neither her sovereignty nor her historical validity, regardless of whether that process is being peddled by the Obama Administration, the European Union or the Saudi royal family.  Though there are pros and cons to any potential alternatives, Israel can at least take charge of her own destiny by unilaterally pursuing a resolution that makes legal, historical and demographic sense, and which presumes her moral legitimacy and sovereign integrity.

If she continues to proceed under Oslo or some other misguided framework that elevates the revisionist Palestinian narrative over Jewish history, Israel will risk compromising not only her security, but her continuity as the Jewish national homeland.  At the end of the day, only Israel has an interest in ensuring the survival of her national character in a manner consistent with her historical rights and cultural values.  No foreign intercessor will do it for her.

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September 22, 2013 | 61 Comments »

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  1. @ dweller:
    Yochanan ben Zakkai never laid eyes on Hadrian, and Hadrian never laid eyes on R. Yochanan. They were not contemporaries.

    Good catch, but then where does this quote come from. I have found it in more than one source.

    In an ancient text of the Jews, we read an astonishing description of some of these gigantic Amorites whom the Israelites conquered. In Buber’s Tanhuma, Devarim 7, the text tells us of a Rabbi Johnanan ben Zakkai’s encounter with the Roman Emperor Hadrian. This event occurred in about A.D. 135, soon after the Roman victory in the Bar Kochba war, when the Jews rebelled against the Romans. The text reads:

    Perhaps a descendant of ben Zekkai

  2. @ dove:
    Are you implying that it is because of the sins of the JEWS? What about the sins of others? Bad things happen to good people. Read the book of Job….carefully. There is no shortage of Job’s in the Jewish world.

    According to the quote I cited: Rabbi ben Zekai said it was the sins of the Jews. He did not mince words. Take it up with him.

  5. honeybee Said:

    I like Bob Marley’s for the beat,

    that version was the melodians and bob marley was not a part of that group, the poster made an error in his video. I post for you another version with the same group (melodians) + “I roy”, including a “dub”, and some instrumental only with some interesting rasta, reggae, ska beats at about 2:40 3 minutes to 4.5 minutes
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JT3fnWzRols

  8. @ CuriousAmerican:

    “The Jews were expelled by Romans, not Arabs.”

    As I said above, this is not true.

    Part Two

    The sixth century saw some “forty-three Jewish communities in [the country from which they had supposedly been forcibly ‘exiled’ by Rome]… twelve towns on the coast, in the Negev, and east of the Jordan, and thirty-one villages in Galilee and in the Jordan Valley,” all of which are noted by name in the few surviving sources ascertained by Samuel Katz. To the South, however, things were changing.

    THE COHORTS OF MOHAMMAD [AD 570-632], having first wiped out (by the edge of the sword) the most prominent and flourishing of the eternally conversion-averse, Jewish communities on the Arabian Peninsula, and having then driven out of the region by main force many lesser ones — as a prelude to plundering their property (now conveniently free for the taking) in order to finance the attacking armies of jihad—the aforesaid fractious Arabian tribes, long acclimated to raiding and being raided but united now under the banner of an appetite-indulgent Islam, and finding themselves aroused and rampant at the prospect of spoil, had stormed explosively northward, bursting out of the peninsula and into the Levant.

    Four years after “The Prophet’s” death, the newly-Muslim, Arabs, commanded by Khalid bin al-Walid, the Blade of Islam, at the Battle of the Yarmuk River, decisively defeated (and then proceeded to massacre the surrendering forces of) the Byzantine [Eastern Roman] Empire that had “inherited” the Land of Israel from pre-Diocletal (viz., still administratively unified) Rome: thereby ending, after 636, Byzantine rule south of the Anatolian Peninsula.

    Unlike earlier occupiers, however, the (contemporaneously named) “Ishmaelite conquerors,” or sarakenoi [hence, “Saracens”], promptly set about systematically colonizing the Jewish homeland militarily.

    Wave after wave of Ishmaelite warrior adherents of the Prophet — together with their sprawling and swiftly proliferating, four-wife (and limitlessly concubinous) families — followed the victors of the Yarmuk, and proceeded to pillage the countryside and smother the land like a pestilence. Half of all homes in the cities of Tiberias and Beit She’an were expropriated — confiscated and given to the Islamic battalions for armed settlement, without compensation (let alone, consent) of the owners. The new Arab government went even so far as to deliberately separate the Jews from their native soil.

    The dispossession, progressive marginalization and displacement of Palestine’s non-sovereign, and thus exceedingly vulnerable, Jewish community, was a prolonged affair, and over time became an accomplished fact through the routine seizure of Jewish land and dwellings, and the conscription of Jewish labor.

    The rest of the discussion explores the Pact of Omar, which facilitated the separation of the Jews from their land and made inevitable their journey out into the world.

    Netanyahu devotes a few pages to this, as I recall, in A Durable Peace: Israel and Its Place Among the Nations.

    Anyway, the bottom line is that it was indeed the Arabs — and not the Romans — who effectively exiled the Jews.

    “The wicked emperor Hadrian, who conquered Jerusalem, boasted, ‘I have conquered Jerusalem with great power.’ Rabbi Johanan ben Zakkai said to him, ‘Do not boast. Had it not been the will of Heaven, you would not have conquered it.’ Rabbi Johanan then took Hadrian into a cave and showed him the bodies of Amorites who were buried there. One of them measured eighteen cubits [approximately 30 feet] in height. He said, ‘When we were deserving, such men were defeated by us, but now, because of our sins, you have defeated us’” (quoted in Judaism, edited by Arthur Hertzberg, p.155-156, George Braziller, New York: 1962).

    Don’t think I’ve seen the book, and I dunno what essay or other document Hertzberg found this story in — but I can tell you one thing for a fact:

    Yochanan ben Zakkai never laid eyes on Hadrian, and Hadrian never laid eyes on R. Yochanan. They were not contemporaries.

    R. Yochanan did not witness the Bar-Kokhba revolt [AD 131-36] — also known as the “Second Jewish War.”

    He witnessed the first one, which culminated in the destruction of the Temple in AD 70 (lived maybe another 20 yrs after that).

    The emperors he dealt with directly were the Flavians: Vespasian, Titus, maybe Domitian.

    “Why was it the will of heaven that the Jews were defeated and dispersed?”

    Where does he say “dispersed”?

    — “Defeated,” yes; but where does he say “dispersed” (whomever he supposedly said it to)?

    “What were the sins asks this Gentile?”

    Are you suggesting they were emblematically national sins

    — as distinct from personal ones taken in the aggregate?

    @ CuriousAmerican:

    “Idol Worship was not common in Israel around the First Century AD, so that was not an issue. The Babylonian Captivity pretty much ended idol worship.”

    Nonsense. Idol worship is as common today as it was in 1200 BC, and in First Century AD — in Israel and everywhere else.

    Doin’ the bougalou in front of a statue may not be much in vogue in many circles these days, but idolatry itself has NEVER ceased to be an issue.

    “Neither was sexual immorality common.”

    Nu, so how did John the Baptist lose his head? (or how did the head lose the body?)

  9. @ CuriousAmerican:

    “The Jews were expelled by Romans, not Arabs.”

    Popular mythology — and like much of the genre, quite UNTRUE.

    My online time is limited, so I’m taking the liberty of lifting a chunk of something I wrote some time ago

    — and without editing it for this medium.

    So if it seems a trifle stilted & formal, forgive me — but I think you may find it constructive:

    Part One

    It is quite true that the Jews were subjected to genocide and divested of their sovereignty by the Roman Empire. It is further true that Rome prohibited Jews from entering the renamed Jerusalem-qua-“Aelia” after the AD 135 collapse of the Bar Kokhba Revolt. However, it is a misstatement of history — an all-too-common-one, alas — to assert that the Jews were also flatly ‘exiled’ from all of Judea (now “Palaestina”) by the Mistress-on-the-Tiber or any of her agents, envoys or delegates. There simply was no such policy.

    Many were deported to the Galilee region [Tiberias, Tz’fahdt (Safed), etc], the northernmost part of the Land, where the Mishnah and the Jerusalem [“Palestinian”] Talmud were later completed. The Negev and the Jordan Valley also acquired greater focus of Jewish activity in the wake of the upheaval. But the actual Jewish dispersion — out of the Land altogether — had another source. And did not occur till centuries later.

    The myth of a Roman-imposed exile is one which acquired purchase as developing Christianity — having lost its Jewish roots (and with it, arguably, its authenticity) and, in place of that loss, acquired a pagan overlay in its bid for a broader acceptance (which was non-essential to the Judaic faith) — was seeking to promote itself as a separate, fresh, and distinctive faith: the ‘new & improved’ rendition of Judaism and ‘inheritor’ of the original article (and heir, then, as well, to the much-vaunted Promises attendant thereto).

    Convenient (if not essential) to the Augustinian narrative was that the “demise and dispersion abroad” of the Jewish People were evidence of the Almighty’s final displeasure with, and ultimate rejection of, His original choice for the Chosen — notwithstanding that “the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable” [Rom 11:29] — whereby of course the field could now be seen as open for a new ‘choice.’

    Or, in the name of universalism (an easy way of denying His authority & purpose), no choice whatsoever. Handy, to be sure.

    Therein lay the basis for Replacement Theology [AKA “Covenant Theology”]: Supersessionism, which (operationally) holds that the Infinite Intelligence and Creator of the Universe is really no better, in the end, than His finite creation, man — when it comes to keeping His word…. (‘God as Indian-giver’—no offense to our Native American friends).

    Either that, or that “everlasting” doesn’t mean everlasting.

    In any case — and to return to the point — it was not the Romans that saw to the Jewish dispersion… [I]t was, in fact, the Arabs.

    I’ll give you a little of THAT discussion in another post, as this one is already running long.

  10. @ CuriousAmerican:

    “I agree the Jews have a better claim on the land; but I am NOT so sure that the Arabs in the area were recent arrivals.”

    If they existed on the land in numbers, they must have had a collective immunity to malaria (formerly known to European visitors as “Jerusalem Fever”) that nobody else had.

    If you can find substantive evidence of this, you should contact the Guinness people; there may be a reward for the data — and you’ll have EARNED it. . . .

    “Joan Peters’ work, [FROM] TIME IMMEMORIAL does not hold up.”

    A few of the footnotes were garbled. Aside from that, however, the book is a towering achievement.

    If I were a betting man (I’m not, but if I were), I would wager that you haven’t read the book.

    You should — and not just a page here & a couple paragraphs there, but the book in its entirety.

    — Then you can make up your mind for YOURSELF — instead of relying on critics with axes-to-grind telling you what to think about how well it “holds up.”

    “Palestinians were defining themselves as Palestinians even around 1900.”

    Ask the people who told you this for contemporaneous, documented evidence of it

    — because it sounds to me like either

    A. somebody’s pulling your leg, OR

    B. somebody’s pulling THEIRS.

  11. Curious American said

    Because of their sins … What sin was Johanan ben Zakkai referring to? Why was it the will of heaven that the Jews were defeated and dispersed?

    Don’t blame me for asking about Rabbi Johanan ben Zakkai‘s comment.

    Why were the Jews dispersed? Because of their sins, said the Rabbi.

    What were the sins asks this Gentile?

    I know you will go berserk, but I think Rabbi Ben Zakkai’s assessment is better than your

    Are you implying that it is because of the sins of the JEWS? What about the sins of others? Bad things happen to good people. Read the book of Job….carefully. There is no shortage of Job’s in the Jewish world.

  12. @ yamit82:
    srael’s Great sin Johanan ben Zakkai‘s comment refers to is “Sinat chinam” (groundless hatred.) in violation of the commandment in (Leviticus19:17) lo tisnah at ahicha blevavecha, do not hate your brotherAnd what is my assessment? in your heart.

    The principle and belief was well established in Judaism by the time of the Jewish Revolt. In the Talmud (Yoma 9b) records that the First Temple was burned down because of idol worship, sexual immorality and bloodshed.

    Jewish guilt: Whenever their was a national tragedy against the Jews they always asked ‘what did we do wrong’?

    It was more than that, but that is as far as you will concede at this time.

    Idol Worship was not common in Israel around the First Century AD, so that was not an issue. The Babylonian Captivity pretty much ended idol worship. Neither was sexual immorality common.

  15. CuriousAmerican Said:

    Because of their sins … What sin was Johanan ben Zakkai referring to? Why was it the will of heaven that the Jews were defeated and

    Don’t blame me for asking about Rabbi Johanan ben Zakkai‘s comment.

    Why were the Jews dispersed? Because of their sins, said the Rabbi.

    What were the sins asks this Gentile?

    I know you will go berserk, but I think Rabbi Ben Zakkai’s assessment is better than your.

    And what is my assessment?

    The Jewish Bible emphasizes the communal responsibility of the whole nation.
    Jews were to become, A KINGDOM OF PRIESTS, AND AN HOLY NATION [Exodus 19:6].

    The emphasis is on the nation as a whole.

    The Community of Israel accepted an obligation to enforce the SAME Law on all members of the Community!

    [Deuteronomy 29:29] THE SECRET THINGS BELONG UNTO THE LORD OUR GOD: BUT THOSE THINGS WHICH ARE REVEALED BELONG UNTO US AND TO OUR CHILDREN FOR EVER, THAT WE MAY DO ALL THE WORDS OF THIS LAW.

    The Torah was given to the whole of Israel as a group and they were commanded to be mutually responsible for each other in keeping it.

    Jews believe that their national fortunes are a reflection of their collective behavior and loyalty to the the commandments of the Torah.

    When Jews are victorious they attribute the victory to G-d and when they are defeated they also attribute the defeat to G-d as a collective punishment.

    Israel’s Great sin Johanan ben Zakkai‘s comment refers to is “Sinat chinam” (groundless hatred.) in violation of the commandment in (Leviticus19:17) lo tisnah at ahicha blevavecha, do not hate your brotherAnd what is my assessment? in your heart.

    The principle and belief was well established in Judaism by the time of the Jewish Revolt. In the Talmud (Yoma 9b) records that the First Temple was burned down because of idol worship, sexual immorality and bloodshed.

    Jewish guilt: Whenever their was a national tragedy against the Jews they always asked ‘what did we do wrong’?

  18. CuriousAmerican Said:

    Islam is just as territorial or we would not be having this problem.

    Not in a national sense but a theological one. Has to do with the concept of the supremacy of Islam not as it relates to any specific territory in a national or religious sense. For Allah to be seen as supreme conquest must be successful or if lost reconquered.

    Under Islam, land once possessed by Islam, if subsequently lost to an invader, remains land that is holy to Islam. It is especially imperative that such lost lands be restored to the rightful rule of Islam. Historically, of course, such lost lands now lost to Islam include not only Israel but large portions of Southern Europe, Spain and North Africa. Since Allah’s will is for the entire world to come under subjection to the rule of Islam, whether by peaceful means or by the sword.

  19. yamit82 Said:

    Thank you the inormation on Judaism. I was thinking of the Navaho and their sacred ground.

    Supper is finish ,what we had,can’t say not kosher,but baked potato, fruit salad and apple sauce and peanut butter-chocolate ice cream. The Broncos are playing so I am going to sneak up-stairs and watch Antique Road show.

    I shall send you those names manana, did you recieve the information on Sophia Herzog MD of Brazoria,TX?

    Have a good rest and good blood test. As we are prone to here “G-d Bless”!!!!!!!!!!

  20. CuriousAmerican Said:

    There was a Palestinian nationality; but most of its adherents were Christians.

    anecdotal, has no basis in fact with regard to christianity.

    “Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and unto god the things that are god’s” “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But now (or ‘as it is’) my kingdom is not from the world” (John 18:36); i.e., his religious teachings were separate from earthly political activity. This reflects a traditional division in Christian thought by which state and church have separate spheres of influence.

    The Land of Israel is a necessary component of Judaism but not in christianity or Islam nor is any other specific territory except possibly the Vatican and Mecca

  21. honeybee Said:

    I may have found two interesting Jews for you tomorrow[I am fixing supper} I will send you their information. They lived in O.K. territory.

    Cool.

    What are you making for supper? I’m getting hunger pangs for food. Haven’t eaten all day. I have blood tests tomorrow and have to fast 12 hrs.

  22. @ honeybee:

    Judaism rests on 3 legs. Torah, the land of Israel and the people of Israel.

    To be complete you need all three.

    Jews are a chosen people and Israel is a chosen land.

    “If I forget you, O Jerusalem, withered be my right hand! May my tongue cleave to my palate, if I ever not think of you, if ever I not set Jerusalem above my chiefest joy!”

    King David didn’t pen these words as just a pretty poem. On the wings of Divine Inspiration, he is teaching us that our love for Jerusalem is to be the guiding principle of our lives, even greater than the joy of our wedding, more cherished than our spouses, families, our villas, our Audis and Mercedes, more valued than our bank accounts, professions, and university degrees. We are to set Jerusalem above our chiefest joy, to struggle in its behalf, and to dedicate ourselves to its holy rebuilding.

    “How can we sing the Lord’s song in a foreign land?” King David asks.

    The answer is that we can’t.

    To sing the Lord’s song, you have to sing it in Israel, as Shir HaMaalot (Psalm 121) teaches: “Our mouth was filled with laughter and our tongue with ringing song” (Psalm, 126:2).

    When?

    “When the Lord brought the exiles back to Zion” (there, verse 1).

  23. yamit82 Said:

    Only Judaism is territorial. The land of Israel is one of the legs upon which Judaism is based.

    Do you mean as a religion or as a people? I may have found two interesting Jews for you tomorrow[I am fixing supper} I will send you their information. They lived in O.K. territory.

  24. @ Salubrius:
    They were referring to themselves as “Palestinians” meaning that they were from a territory called Palestine. But there was never any Palestinian “people”. There was no peoplehood,

    Not exactly, true!

    Actually the correct answer is more complicated.

    The Christians did have a strong concept of Palestinian nationality (which is a Christian/European concept). The Muslims did not.

    So most of the early Palestinian nationalists (around 1900-1920) were Christian.

    There was a Palestinian nationality; but most of its adherents were Christians.

  26. @ yamit82:
    Jews never gave up their claim to the whole of the Land of Israel. The thief and beneficiary of the theft has no rights and should not be allowed to profit from the murder and forced expulsion of Jews in prior generations.

    The settlement of Israel by Islam is not that easy. The Jews were expelled by Romans, not Arabs.

    But let’s get down to Torah, since that is what you want. Torah!

    I believe it was during the Bar Kochba revolt at the end that the Romans bragged to a rabbi how good Roman soldiers were.

    “The wicked emperor Hadrian, who conquered Jerusalem, boasted, ‘I have conquered Jerusalem with great power.’ Rabbi Johanan ben Zakkai said to him, ‘Do not boast. Had it not been the will of Heaven, you would not have conquered it.’ Rabbi Johanan then took Hadrian into a cave and showed him the bodies of Amorites who were buried there. One of them measured eighteen cubits [approximately 30 feet] in height. He said, ‘When we were deserving, such men were defeated by us, but now, because of our sins, you have defeated us'” (quoted in Judaism, edited by Arthur Hertzberg, p.155-156, George Braziller, New York: 1962).

    Because of their sins … What sin was Johanan ben Zakkai referring to? Why was it the will of heaven that the Jews were defeated and dispersed?

    Don’t blame me for asking about Rabbi Johanan ben Zakkai‘s comment.

    Why were the Jews dispersed? Because of their sins, said the Rabbi.

    What were the sins asks this Gentile?

    I know you will go berserk, but I think Rabbi Ben Zakkai’s assessment is better than your.

  27. CuriousAmerican Said:

    Maybe so, but Muslims, Buddists, Hindus, Agnostics, Secular Jews, Mainstream Christians, etc will not accept the Bible. So you should start with the first 4 reasons.

    Religious Jews, and Fundamentalist Christians are a small minority on the planet.

    Only Judaism is territorial. The land of Israel is one of the legs upon which Judaism is based.

    “Our land is not only a Homeland in the sense that Poland is a for the Poles or Korea is for the Koreans, but rather it is the Land in which we can “Go up to appear and bow down.” The Temple Mount is not sufficient without a good, spacious land around it, but neither is such a land sufficient without the Temple Mount. We are not like the nations of the world, they belong to a land; transfer them to another land and they will belong to it. Nor is this land like the lands of other nations, take away one nation, they will belong to another. Here a third factor comes into play, supreme and decisive, which does not permit the above occurrences. Jerusalem and the Temple Mount transform our tie to the land into a weltanschauung.

    This weltanschauung is symbolized by the Temple. This centralization, this facing toward one spot wherever our people have been, is what has kept us together for thousands of years.” (Israel Eldad)

  28. Bill Narvey Said:

    If anyone has an explanation for how Israel’s acceptance and tolerance of the Palestinian 5th column in East Jerusalem and her agreeing that the final status of East Jerusalem is yet to be determined, somehow in the grand scheme of things including the TSS peace process Israel is committed to, advantages Israel, let’s have it.

    Myopically stupid and suicidal. There is no advantage other than possibly brief respites of pressure from America the EU and Israeli Post Zionists which include most of the Elites and business and financial interests in Israel.

    Nobody reaches the pinnacles of power without accruing debts and obligations and outright IOU’s along the way.

  29. @ CuriousAmerican:

    The principle is ““Thus said the Lord: Would you murder and take possession?” Thus said the Lord: “In the very place where the dogs lapped up Naboth’s blood, the dogs will lap up your blood too”(1 Kings 21:17–19).

    Jews never gave up their claim to the whole of the Land of Israel. The thief and beneficiary of the theft has no rights and should not be allowed to profit from the murder and forced expulsion of Jews in prior generations. when Elijah confronts Ahab, the prophet predicts instead how the queen will die: “The dogs shall devour Jezebel in the field of Jezreel” (1 Kings 21:23) Poetic justice, the prophet demands that Jezebel end up as dog food. Ashamed of what has happened and fearful of the future, Ahab humbles himself by assuming outward signs of mourning, fasting and donning sackcloth. Didn’t help him.

  30. CuriousAmerican Said:

    Palestinians were defining themselves as Palestinians even around 1900. Does not matter what the Jordanians or Syrians thought.

    They were referring to themselves as “Palestinians” meaning that they were from a territory called Palestine. But there was never any Palestinian “people”. There was no peoplehood, a unique commonality of language, culture, no government with a capital in Palestine, no common coinage coinage. As individuals they were identifying themselves as coming from Palestine. The Palestinian Arab People were invented by the Soviet Union dezinformatsiya in 1964. You can see them in the preamble of the 1964 PLO Charter, drafted in Moscow. See: Soviet Russia’s creation of the PLO and the Palestinian People.
    Was it by coincidence that two years later we find at the UN the International Covenant of Civil and Political Rights, and also, the Internatonal Covenant of Economic, Social and Cultural Rights? Each of of themimported into International Law this right from natural law, the right of a people to self-determination. However if you look further, the right is to be balanced against the territorial integrity of a sovereign state that has been the mainstay of world order since 1648. Ergo, when a quest for political self determination would change a boundary of a sovereign state, the territorial integrity trumps the quest for political self-determination.

    After 1950 when Soviet Russia determined that Israel was not to go Communist, it believed that Israel was in its way toward establishing hegemony over the MIddle East as a stepping stone to hegemony over Western Europe according to Eugene Rostow an International Lawyer and Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs under Johnson. He was also Dean of the Yale Law School. He noted in an article about Palestinian Self-Determination that exploitation of Arab hatred of Jews was a way to overcome Israel as a barrier to that goal. It major weapon was to use the KGB dezinformatsiya and the SIG program (see Pacepa, Russian Footprints) to exploit Arab hatred of the Balfour Declaration, the Palestine Mandate and the existence of Israel. It pushed Palestinian right to self-determination at the UN and also the slogan “Zionism is Racism” Part of that push was to invent the Arab People living in Palestine that were no different from Arabs anywhere else, as “The Palestinian Arab People”. Then, in 1966 there suddenly appeared at the UN two International Covenants that morphed the natural law of the right of a “people” to self- determination” to International Law. But it is only one factor in that determination. International Law only supports self-determination in de-colonization. If a boundary of a sovereign state is involved, territorial integrity trumps political self-determination. Ergo, the Arab People in Palestine west of the Jordan River, do not have the right to self-determination for that reason. They also do not have the right to self-determination because it was implicitly denied them in the Balfour Declaration and in the Palestine Mandate when the Principal Allied War Powers chose to recognize the Jewish People as the owners of the political rights to Palestine. The Balfour Declaration saves only the Civil and Religious rights of the non-Jewish communities in Palestine. The French proposal on April 25, 1920 to add “political rights” in the savings clause was rejected.

  31. @ yamit82:
    Nevoraya, a Jewish village that existed until the Arab-Muslim Period / DR.Rivka Shpak Lissak

    ACRE HAS BEEN SETTLED BY JEWS ALTERNATELY SINCE THE 3rd CENTURY BCE, UNTIL FORCED TO LEAVE DURING THE ARABIC REVOLT IN 1936 😛 art Two / DR.Rivka Shpak Lissak

    ACRE HAS BEEN SETTLED BY JEWS ALTERNATELY SINCE THE 3rd CENTURY BCE, UNTIL FORCED TO LEAVE DURING THE ARABIC REVOLT IN 1936:Part One / DR.Rivka Shpak Lissak

    Today’s Yafa was An Israeli/Jewish Town for About 2,000 Years / Dr.Rivka Shpak Lissak

    Deir Hanna Was the Jewish Kfar Hanun(or Kfar Yohanna) / DR.Rivka Shpak Lissak

    Arabic Fassouta Was Once A Jewish Village /DR.Rivka Shpak Lissak

    Umm El Fahem Denies the Jews the Right to a National State / DR.Rivka Shpak Lissak and DR.Shaul Bartal

    Dalton Was Jewish in the Past and is Now Jewish Again / Dr.Rivka Shpak Lissak

    Meyron was Jewish until the 12th Century and resettled from the 18th / DR.Rivka Lissak

    Biriya was a Jewish Village and is Resettled Today / DR.Rivka Shpak Lissak

    Some of that stuff is fascinating. I read some, and will read more.

    But it still begs a question. Ghassanid Christians have been in the area since around the 3rd century. I knew an Arab Ghassinad Christian from Ramallah.

    Yamit, I know you would happily – and with gusto – toss out any Christian family whose ancestors have been residing in the land for 1700 years; but not before your humiliated them. It is just your style.

    But I have difficulty with that.

    Some of your sources say that much of the Arabs have been only in the land for 300 years, as if that voided them of consideration. Most whites in the New World have been here for less than 300 years. 300 years is enough time to plant real roots. Real roots.

    I do not deny Israel’s claim to the land; but when I hear an Israeli scholar saying that Arabs who have resided in the land for 300 years or 200 years have no residency claim … I can’t buy that.

    Israel is still the Jewish state; but someone who has been on the land for generations still have rights which have to be considered. NOT BY YOU, YAMIT. YOU ARE HEARTLESS! But by normal people.

    I agree the land was never as Arab as the Arabs claim; but neither was it as empty as some of your sources claim. In fact, they even admit it was not empty. They now assert it was merely Arab for only a few centuries.

    Only a few centuries?! Here are some nations that are ONLY a few centuries old. Argentina-1810, Australia-1906, Belgium-1830, Brazil-1822, Canada-1867, Chile-1810, Italy-1871, Germany-1871, Mexico-1810, Uruguay-1810, USA-1776, Finland-1918, etc.

    You would be hard pressed to find any government on the planet more than three centuries old with the exception of the UK, and even then the UK went through a major revolution in 1688, a dishonest incorporation of Scotland 1707, etc.

    So when an Israeli academic says the Arabs have been in this or that area for 350 years, she may be right in saying the land was not eternally Arab as the Arabs claim, but she is wrong in dismissing three centuries as a minor claim.

    This is just utterly amazing.

    Even 100 years of presence has some merit.

    Israel is still a Jewish state, but you cannot reduce the Arabs presence into nothingness, even though Yamit would love to.

    In any event, thanks for the sources, Yamit.

  32. Yamit #7, the 1st part of the Samson Blinded article you referred me to is interesting, but the author is way out there in an alternate universe as he seeks to make his case for the creation of 2 Jewish states that he introduces in the portion of the article you quoted.

    The article however, does not at all answer the question I posed to conclude my comment #5, which I will repeat here in the hopes that others might have a plausible explanatory answer:

    If anyone has an explanation for how Israel’s acceptance and tolerance of the Palestinian 5th column in East Jerusalem and her agreeing that the final status of East Jerusalem is yet to be determined, somehow in the grand scheme of things including the TSS peace process Israel is committed to, advantages Israel, let’s have it.

  33. @ CuriousAmerican:

    CA said Religious Jews, and Fundamentalist Christians are a small minority on the planet

    Please refrain from comparing us and making us the same as this is not true. Judaism is not a religion in itself. It is a way of life. Being ‘religious’ is not necessarily a good thing.

  35. @ Shy Guy:
    Ironically, it is the linchpin reason that really counts. The first 4 will not help us without the 5th.

    Maybe so, but Muslims, Buddists, Hindus, Agnostics, Secular Jews, Mainstream Christians, etc will not accept the Bible. So you should start with the first 4 reasons.

    Religious Jews, and Fundamentalist Christians are a small minority on the planet.

  36. CuriousAmerican Said:

    5) The Bible: Both Christian and Jewish portions. Not everyone accepts the bible though. The first four reasons are incontrovertible.

    Ironically, it is the linchpin reason that really counts. The first 4 will not help us without the 5th.

  37. @ yamit82:

    Once again I must offer my condolences on the killing of the IDF soldier. I think these two recent murders of IDF soldiers says all that needs to be said about the Oslo Accords,

  38. @ yamit82:
    Let’s hear your vision then…. Why don’t to give us an explanation of how you envision the opposing arguments both weak and strong especially what you think are our strongest arguments.

    1) History: All competent histories shows the Jews returning whenever possible UNLESS driven out It would cycle. Jews would start to return, until reaching a critical mass. Then they were driven out. Then they would start to return and the cycle would start over. This was independent of who ruled: Crusader or Muslim. During the rule of the Frankish Christian Barbarosa, the Christians won back Jerusalem from Saladin’s descendents. An agreement was made. Christians controlled Jerusalem, Muslims could control Muslim holy places, and both agreed that the increasing number of Jews had to be driven out. All competent histories show this recurring cycle.

    2) DNA: DNA shows a connection between modern Jews and ancient Jews

    3) Anthropology: Every time you stick a shovel in the soil, you hit a Jewish artifact

    4) A degree of continuous presence: While not a majority, Jews were aiming to become a majority always … until driven out per the cycle. There was always immigration in, indicating a presence. Had that immigration NOT been interfered with, a majority would have been established earlier.

    5) The Bible: Both Christian and Jewish portions. Not everyone accepts the bible though. The first four reasons are incontrovertible.

  39. The Denial of Jewish Self-Determination / DR.R.S.Lissak

    An anomaly of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is that a 3000 year old nation must justify its right to self- determination, while a nation less than 100 years old epitomizes national legitimacy.

    Less than 100 years ago a group of Arab migrants decided they were a nation and declared themselves Palestinians. Under the Oslo agreements

    Israel recognized the Palestinian right to self-determination as part of a compromise solution predicated on 2 states for 2 peoples. Partition into 2 national states offers a solution when 2 nations have rights on the same piece of land. More than 60% of Israeli Jews endorsed this solution but the details remain elusive.

    The Clinton – Barak proposal in 2000 addressed the thorniest issues: the Palestinian refugees, the Jewish settlements in the Western Bank, Jerusalem and the holy places. This appeared equitable but was rejected by the Palestinian who are encouraged by post-Zionists.

    While post-Zionists espouse Palestinian self determination, they deny the 3000 year old Jewish nation the same. They favor boycotting and imposing sanctions against Israel until it respects, protects and promotes the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN resolution 194.

    Compliance with this demand is delusional and suicidal.

    These refugees were never Israeli citizens. The 1947 UN partititon resolution called for the establishment of 2 national states to succeed the British mandate, as a solution to the Jewish – Arab conflict. The Jews accepted the resolution the Palestinian Arabs with the help of 7 Arab states, resorted to war to liquidate the Jewish state, but unfortunately for them, they lost the war. Wars the world over cause displacement and most Arab refugees responded to their leaders’ suggestion to evacuate the area in order to return after the Jews have been “thrown into the sea.”

    The Palestinian refugees were not ethnically cleansed innocents but active participants in a program “to throw the Jews into the sea”. Had their program succeeded no Jewish refugees would have remained.

    Resolution 194 if implemented would inundate Israel with a hostile population that would turn the Jews into a minority and “peacefully” terminate the Jewish state.

    The libel that Israel is a South African style apartheid regime is another ploy of post-Zionism.The Palestinians were never Israeli citizens and the territories were never part of Israel. The term apartheid applies to citizens who are deprived of their rights as citizens. The issue here is not apartheid but a war between 2 nations who have claims on the same territory. For post Zionists the comparison helps them ignore the partition resolution establishing a Jewish state. They demand that “all Arab lands” be returned to the Palestinians. Zionism the handmaiden of European colonialism has no right to any land.

    This also explains the virulent campaing against the security fence. They want one Palestinian state from the sea to the Jordan river. The fence while subject to modification establishes a border between 2 states.

    The post Zionists harp on the inequality suffered by Israel’s Arab citizens a situation complicated by the state of war with their brothers. They are not content with the progress achieved but have an ulterior agenda consonant with 4 recent manifestos published by Arab- Palestinian leaders and intellectuals in Israel. Alongside the Palestinian state on the Western Bank and Gaza Strip the Jewish state will become “a state of all its citizens,” following the return of all the refugees. The Arabs will become the majority in Israel and will merge with the Palestinian state with a Jewish minority. This is “the just solution” .

    Such a solution rewards Arab conquest and denies self-determination to a nation 3000 years old.

    The Arabs invaded this country from the Arab peninsula in 630 C.E. and conquered it from the Byzantine Eastern half of the fragmented Roman Empire. The Roman Empire had conquered the country from the Jews, and changed the country’s name from Judea to Palestine to humiliate the Jews who remained in the country following the crushing of the Bar Kochva revolt in 135 C.E. Palestine was named after the southern sea shore, Pleshet, where the Philistines (a maritime people from Crete) settled in the 12th century B.C.

    The Jews under the Byzantine and Arab occupations suffered religious and economic restrictions and sometimes experienced persecution and other problems and were forced to leave.

    Following the Arab conquest, Arab settlement waves in “Palestine” commenced. Ironically the largest wave coincided with the Jewish return from the mid 19th century to the mid 20th century. They were attracted by the Zionist movement’s economic success and expanded job opportunities. (These historical facts are substantiated by Ottoman and British records).

    Arab conquest and colonization does not make the land Arab because the: Jews never renounced their homeland, and once proper conditions matured, they returned. Following the First World War the “League of Nations” ratified their right. The denial of Jewish historical rights is the ultimate historical revisionism and falsification. While the Jewish claim is stronger and more ancient.

    Oslo was an attempt by Arabs and Post Zionists to reach an accommodation which has failed to achieve their utopian vision of 2 states.

  40. CuriousAmerican Said:

    But let’s go to a Jewish Zionist Source to settle the matter:

    The Jewish Virtual Library admits that there 276,000 Arabs in the area in 1882.

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/israel_palestine_pop.html (Check the source)

    At a 2.3% per year growth rate (which includes deaths) you would have 1.2 Million Arabs by 1947. Arab birthrates have tended to be much higher.

    What people forget is that around 1880, worldwide population numbers started climbing rapidly. Areas of the world which were static started zooming. Why?! The introduction of soap, and western methods made it into even remote areas of the world. Hygiene increased. No a lot, but enough to create population booms.

    more reading: Links at bottom of page
    Nevoraya, a Jewish village that existed until the Arab-Muslim Period / DR.Rivka Shpak Lissak

    ACRE HAS BEEN SETTLED BY JEWS ALTERNATELY SINCE THE 3rd CENTURY BCE, UNTIL FORCED TO LEAVE DURING THE ARABIC REVOLT IN 1936 :Part Two / DR.Rivka Shpak Lissak

    ACRE HAS BEEN SETTLED BY JEWS ALTERNATELY SINCE THE 3rd CENTURY BCE, UNTIL FORCED TO LEAVE DURING THE ARABIC REVOLT IN 1936:Part One / DR.Rivka Shpak Lissak

    Today’s Yafa was An Israeli/Jewish Town for About 2,000 Years / Dr.Rivka Shpak Lissak

    Deir Hanna Was the Jewish Kfar Hanun(or Kfar Yohanna) / DR.Rivka Shpak Lissak

    Arabic Fassouta Was Once A Jewish Village /DR.Rivka Shpak Lissak

    Umm El Fahem Denies the Jews the Right to a National State / DR.Rivka Shpak Lissak and DR.Shaul Bartal

    Dalton Was Jewish in the Past and is Now Jewish Again / Dr.Rivka Shpak Lissak

    Meyron was Jewish until the 12th Century and resettled from the 18th / DR.Rivka Lissak

    Biriya was a Jewish Village and is Resettled Today / DR.Rivka Shpak Lissak

  41. Dabburiya,An Arabic Village was formerly the Israeli/Jewish Davarita

    Modern Alma was a Jewish Town Until the 17th Century

    The Arabic village Alma was established not far from Alma’s ancient site. This village’s residents were Arab refugees who fled the French occupation of Algiers during the 19th century and were given permission by the Ottoman Sultan to settle in Alma.

    The British Mandate Period (1917 – 1947)

    According to the 1931 British Mandate census, 712 persons were living in the village in 148 houses. Alma’s Arab residents lived there until the end of October 1948, when they were expelled during Operation Hirram.


    Migdal Was A Jewish Town Up to the 7th Century

    The Arabic village Al Majdal was conquered during the War of Independence and its residents were taken by bus to Jordan. The buildings in the village were demolished in the autumn of 1948.
    When the State of Israel was established Migdal absorbed new immigrants who were housed in a transitional camp. In 1953 new residential estates were developed to house Migdal’s increased population.
    Several Arabic families settled in Migdal in 2004. This trend was stopped due to opposition from Migdal’s residents who wished to maintain its population’s status quo. A group of Germans who had converted to Judaism settled in Migdal and became integrated in the Jewish community.

  42. CuriousAmerican Said:

    But let’s go to a Jewish Zionist Source to settle the matter:

    The Jewish Virtual Library admits that there 276,000 Arabs in the area in 1882.

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/israel_palestine_pop.html (Check the source)

    At a 2.3% per year growth rate (which includes deaths) you would have 1.2 Million Arabs by 1947. Arab birthrates have tended to be much higher.

    What people forget is that around 1880, worldwide population numbers started climbing rapidly. Areas of the world which were static started zooming. Why?! The introduction of soap, and western methods made it into even remote areas of the world. Hygiene increased. No a lot, but enough to create population booms.

    Most Palestinians Penetrated into the Land of Israel Between 1870s’- 1948 / DR.Rivka Shpak Lissak

    The Arabs conquered the Land of Israel between 632 – 640 A.D from the Byzantine Empire. They occupied the country from 640 until 1099, when the Crusaders coquered the country.During those years the country became a battle field between Arab families, and suffered from invasions of Bedouin tribes who robbed and murdered the population, and the Byzantines and others who wished to occupy the country. The wars destroyed the economy and the country was deserted by some of its old population: Christians, Jews and Samaritans. But, although Arabs immigrated to the country, they did not become a majority as was proved by the Archeological Survey made by M.Aviam.The economical and security situation did not encourage immigration.

    The Arabs immigrared into the land of Israel in 4 waves.

    The first wave was after the occupation of the country by the Arabs in the 7th century. Most scholars agree that the composition of the population did not change from the days of the Byzantine occupation, and the majority of the population was composed of Greek Orthodox Chrisians and 2 minorities:Jews and Samatitans. Some Bedouin nomad tribes lived in the south.Arabs settled in cities along the coast and in some other cities such as Jerusalem, Tiberias and more. The soldiers who conquered the country belonged to Bedouin tribes who settled on the borders.

    The second wave came between the middle of the 9th century and 1099. During those years Bedouin tribes from the desrerts of Arabia, Trans Jordan, Syrian desret, Sinai and Egypt invaded the country and robbed its people. Some of them settled in north Samaria, and some other places after they have driven out the local peasants.Lack of records makes it difficult to evaluate the number of Arabs who settled during this period. Still, according to Latin and archeologial data , brought in Prop.Roni Allenblum’s study on the Kingdom of the Crusaders, we know that the country was settled along religious- ethnic lines with small enclaves: The north of Samaria became Arabic, the south and the Jerusalem area was mostly Christian, and so was the western Galilee. The eastern Galilee was Jewish with some enclaves of Christians and Arabs, and the cities along the coast were of mixed population.

    During the conquest,in 1099, the Crusaders massacred many Arabs and many others ran away.

    The 3rd wave began after the occupation of the country by the Turks(1516)during the 16th and 17th centuries. Arabs and Muslims from many countries came to settle in the country. According to the Turkish census of the 16th century, there were about 300,000 people
    in the country, mostly Muslims.But, the economic situation and the lack of personal safety, caused people to leave, Muslims included. During the 18th and the first half of the 19th centuries, the population became smaller and smaller. Tourists from Europe and the United States described the country as deserted by its population and the land uncultivated.

    The last and largest wave came between the middle of the 10th century and 1948, when Israel was established. Arabs andMuslims from the Islamic countries entered the country illegally during the Turkish and latter the British rule. They entered through the northern, eastern and southern borders, looking for jobs created by the Zionist Movement, Jewish investors and by the British Mandate(1918 – 1948).

    The Arab and Muslim population grew espacially in those areas were Jews settled because these were the places were jobs were available. Thus, tha Arab population between Tel Aviv and Haifa grew between 1922-1944 from about 10,000 to more than 30,000, and the Arab and Muslim population along the sea coast from Jaffa to the Egyptian border grew between 1922- 1944 by more than 200%.

    From 1870s’ to 1948, the Arab and Muslim population grew by 270%.Even in Egypt, the Arab country with the highest birth rate, the population grew by inly 105%. The 1931 British census in Palestine(the name the British Mandate gave the country)showed that more than 50 languages were spoken by the Arab and Muslim population. The rate of childrens’ deaths, the low life expectanfy, and the lack of health services in the country, made it impossible to reach 270% of birth rate.
    In short, from about 250,000 around the 1880s’ the Arabic and Muslim population grew to almost 1,200,000 in 1948. A large percent of these people were immigrant workers. Since, the Palestinian refugees(the Arabs defined themself as Palestinians since the 1960s’ only)came from the area of the Jewish state, its reasonable to say that many of the so called Palestinians are Arabs and Muslems from the Arab and Muslim countries.

    The Palestinian claim that they are the indigenous people of the Land of Israel has no ground.

  43. CuriousAmerican Said:

    But let’s go to a Jewish Zionist Source to settle the matter:

    The Jewish Virtual Library admits that there 276,000 Arabs in the area in 1882.

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/israel_palestine_pop.html (Check the source)

    At a 2.3% per year growth rate (which includes deaths) you would have 1.2 Million Arabs by 1947. Arab birthrates have tended to be much higher.

    What people forget is that around 1880, worldwide population numbers started climbing rapidly. Areas of the world which were static started zooming. Why?! The introduction of soap, and western methods made it into even remote areas of the world. Hygiene increased. No a lot, but enough to create population booms.


    Arab Immigration into the Coastal Plains of Israel (the Sharon) During the British Mandate

    Summary

    Jewish settlement in the Sharon during the British Mandate period and development works by the government brought about the elimination of malaria and the provision of medical services which improved the health conditions in the Arabic villages, reduced the infant and adult mortality rates, and increased the longevity rate. New and varied industries created an abundance of work places, attracting Arabs and Bedouins to the Sharon, many of them from Egypt. During World War II, the British Army further created employment and increased demand for agricultural produce. The increase in sources for livelihood brought about an increase in the Arabic population in the Sharon, from 10,000 to 30,000 in less than 30 years.

    Nazareth Was A Jewish Town for Hundreds of Years

    city was Jewish until the 4th century A.D according to the historian Epiphanes. But, in fact, It lasted until the 7th century.

    Nazareth Was A Jewish Town for Hundreds of Years

    Kafar Canna was a Jewish town for almost 3,000 years, today it’s all Arab.

    The Immigration of Egyptian Workers to the land of Israel during the British Mandate

    According to Braver’s study, an immigration wave from Egypt into Israel accompanied the British army as it conquered the land from the Turks in 1917- 1918 , and contiued until the mid- 1940’s(i.e.,the end of Second World War. Egyptian workers who were employed to service the British army in Egypt followed it ino Israel.Egyptian immigration was also greatly influenced by the growth in the Jewish citrus agro-industry which expanded 10-fold in the 1920’s and 1930’s and required many workers. The British military camps which were set-up in the area, the Jewish construction works, and public works initiated by the Mandate government and the Jewish Agency required workers as well. Egyptian workers made good of the extensive employment opportunities these offered and settled in the Land of Israel on the southern coastal plains.

  44. CuriousAmerican Said:

    I support Israel over Palestine, but these arguments are weak.

    Let’s hear your vision then…. Why don’t to give us an explanation of how you envision the opposing arguments both weak and strong especially what you think are our strongest arguments.

  45. Bill Narvey Said:

    If anyone has an explanation for how Israel’s acceptance and tolerance of the Palestinian 5th column in East Jerusalem and her agreeing that the final status of East Jerusalem is yet to be determined, somehow in the grand scheme of things including the TSS peace process Israel is committed to, advantages Israel, let’s have it.


    Judea, a second Jewish State

    “Jewish society is deeply split. On one hand, many Jews believe that preserving Eretz Israel within the boundaries of the Promised Land is the Jews’ utmost obligation. That Jewish opinion is valid, since it is based on Torah, and some degree of adherence to the Torah is that which makes Jews Jews. Other Jews, mostly secular-minded but some deeply religious Jewish people as well, believe that no Israeli territory is worth the life of a single Jew, since the commandments were given the Jews for life, not for death.”

    “Both kinds of Jews have many other valid arguments. While Jewish adherents of Eretz Israel argue that only acquiring all the Promised Land fulfills the Jewish nation’s destiny, the opposing Jews just as reasonably point to the practical impossibility for Israel of attaining the goal of Eretz Israel in the foreseeable future after Israel transferred Sinai to the Egyptians. Israel conquering Jordan and Iraq to the Euphrates is a long way off. If Jews cannot fulfill the covenant promise now, why kill a lot of Jewish and Arab people and spend a lot of Jewish money for the Arab territories, which have no value in themselves and, except Sinai, lack significant defense value for Israel? Jewish opponents of the Eretz Israel-now goal believe that economic growth of Israel unhindered by Arab-Israeli war would be a better source of Jewish national pride, prevent emigration from Israel, and attract Diaspora Jews to Israel.”

    “The Israeli government vacillates between those views on the future of Israel. One Israeli government builds a tremendously expensive Bar-Lev line to protect Israeli Sinai forever; another Israeli government gives up the land, biblically and strategically important for the Jews, for paper guarantees of Egyptian-Israeli peace. One Israeli government encourages and finances Jewish settlements in the Palestinian territories; the next Israeli government dismantles the Jewish settlements. Such wild swings of Israeli policy indicate the relative balance between two Jewish visions of Israeli goals and the impossibility for Israel of bringing the two types of Jews together.”

    “That is only natural, since anybody’s worldview is just a set of axioms. Some Jews believe that the size of the Land of Israel the Jews control is more important, while other Jews believe that preserving Jewish life and its quality take precedence. It is almost futile to argue about Jewish axioms, which are matters of conviction.”

    “Israel, however, cannot have two mutually exclusive policies. Under pro-expansion Israeli governments, even the Jews who do not want more territory for the Jewish state have to fight and die for it, as well as suffer economically from Israeli taxes that finance Arab-Israeli war. Under conciliatory governments, Jewish biblical partisans watch helplessly as Israeli government gives Eretz Israel away. In the long run, no Jews are happy with Israeli government. Everyone, both Israeli groups, want coherent Jewish leadership that shares their vision of Jewish destiny. That can be achieved.”

    “In ancient times, two Jewish entities, Israel and later Galilee, formed an economically viable, cosmopolitan Jewish state. Judea, centered in the barren hills, was content with a subsistence economy, jealously guarded Jewish religion, and Jewish national consciousness. In our time, Jewish history repeats itself. Israeli zealots flock to kibbutzim and other Jewish settlements, where the priority is not economic development but preserving certain ideological goals and values—which many Jews do not share. Jews’ military and fiscal obligations to Israel are also different. Everything is in place for a split of Israel into two Jewish States.”

  46. Since 1967 when Israel won control, imposed her authority on East Jerusalem and began asserting her rights in that regard by establishing a presence there, the UN world community of nations has expressed it’s strong objections in that regard. First the UN did so by UNGA Resolutions and then by Security Council Resolutions which were presented and passed following Israel in 1980, officially declaring the annexation of East Jerusalem by passing the Jerusalem Law in the Knesset, declaring all Jerusalem, West and East, as the united capital of Israel.

    For a list and content of those Resolutions, both UNGA and the more recent UNSCR’s 476 and 478 of 1980, see the link to UNSCR 478 which has a link to UNSCR 476, which latter web page has links to previous UNGAR’s on the same issue:
    http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/DDE590C6FF232007852560DF0065FDDB

    Hausman notes regarding Article XVIII (1a) of the interim Oslo II agreement of 1995 that:

    the PA has been in perpetual breach of Article XVII (1a), which prohibits it from operating in Jerusalem and deciding “issues that will be negotiated in the permanent status negotiations: Jerusalem, settlements, specified military locations, Palestinian refugees, borders, foreign relations and Israelis.” The PA has breached this provision by illegally operating ministries and institutions throughout Jerusalem. The rogues’ gallery of unlawful PA entities includes: the Palestinian Ministry of Education, which disseminates antisemitic and anti-Western educational materials; the Ministry for Jerusalem Affairs, which organizes and sponsors protests against Israel; the Ministry of Information/WAFA, an official Palestinian news agency that routinely publishes antisemitic content; and the Office of the Mufti of Jerusalem and the Holy Land, which prohibits land sales to Jews, denies the historical Jewish connection to the Temple Mount, rejects Israel’s right to exist, and sponsors sermons at the Al-Aksa Mosque calling for jihad and genocide.

    Israel, having in defiance of world and UN opinion, almost immediately after the 6 day war begun establishing her control of and presence on the ground in East Jerusalem and then in 1980 annexing East Jerusalem and declaring the united Jerusalem to be the capital of Israel, it begs the question why has Israel allowed the Palestinians to fortify their own presence in Jerusalem, especially for the purpose of undermining Israel’s determination to assert her rights to all of Jerusalem and have all of Jerusalem as her capital?

    Add to that the question of why in speaking of the TSS peace process, Israel gives credence to world opinion and the UN’s position on Jerusalem when it says that one of the final status issues, is the status of Jerusalem?

    The significance of a 5th column’s treachery is well known.

    In the case of Israel, it is almost as if Israel has invited in and tolerated the Palestinian 5th column presence in East Jerusalem. By that act against her self interest and by further agreeing that the status of East Jerusalem is still up for debate, takes away sincerity, credibility and strength from Israel’s position on East Jerusalem and that a united Jerusalem is Israel’s capital and gives it to the Palestinians to fortify their own position.

    If anyone has an explanation for how Israel’s acceptance and tolerance of the Palestinian 5th column in East Jerusalem and her agreeing that the final status of East Jerusalem is yet to be determined, somehow in the grand scheme of things including the TSS peace process Israel is committed to, advantages Israel, let’s have it.

  48. Indeed, until the mid- to late-1960s, the Arab-Muslim world had steadfastly refused to impute a separate national identity to Arabs who resided in Mandate lands before 1948, the majority of whom were immigrants or the progeny of immigrants who had no ancestral connection to the land.

    I agree the Jews have a better claim on the land; but I am NOT so sure that the Arabs in the area were recent arrivals. Joan Peter’s work A TIME IMMEMORIAL does not hold up.

    But let’s go to a Jewish Zionist Source to settle the matter:

    The Jewish Virtual Library admits that there 276,000 Arabs in the area in 1882.

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/israel_palestine_pop.html (Check the source)

    At a 2.3% per year growth rate (which includes deaths) you would have 1.2 Million Arabs by 1947. Arab birthrates have tended to be much higher.

    What people forget is that around 1880, worldwide population numbers started climbing rapidly. Areas of the world which were static started zooming. Why?! The introduction of soap, and western methods made it into even remote areas of the world. Hygiene increased. No a lot, but enough to create population booms.

    Palestinian nationality was invented only later as a dissimulative tool for repudiating Jewish historical claims.

    Palestinians were defining themselves as Palestinians even around 1900. Does not matter what the Jordanians or Syrians thought.

    The Palestinians have never seriously sought peace with Israel, and their push last year for upgraded U.N. status served only to illustrate their cynical contempt for both concept and process.

    I support Israel over Palestine, but these arguments are weak.

    Though there are pros and cons to any potential alternatives,

    That is what I have been saying here to much disdain.

    Israel can at least take charge of her own destiny by unilaterally pursuing a resolution that makes legal, historical and demographic sense, and which presumes her moral legitimacy and sovereign integrity.

    This part I sort of agree with. I would not have used the legal sense, though, as that is up for definition by all parties. Which legal sense?! The legal sense of the UN or of the Basic Law, or the Torah?

    Historical and demographic imperatives should determine Israel’s decisions, not a legal system in flux.

  50. The Arabs murder Jews in cold blood – what more proof does the Israeli government really need that they are not interested in peace with Israel?

    But don’t expect Israel’s pusillanimous government to denounce the Oslo Accords, break off for good pretend peace talks with the PLO or to stop releasing Arab killers of Jewish children from its prisons.

    After all, what will the Americans say?