SO GO ALREADY

The Hassidic Belz community, one of the largest Hassidic courts in the country, is threatening to leave Israel if the proposed military draft law is passed by the Knesset, Maariv reports.

THEY SHOULD GO.

THEY CAN STUDY IN NEW YORK AS WELL AS IN ISRAEL.

IF THEY ARE NOT CONTRIBUTING TO OUR SOCIETY BY JOINING THE ARMY (OR DOING NATIONAL SERVICE) AND PAYING TAXES, WHO NEEDS THEM.

March 2, 2014 | 203 Comments »

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50 Comments / 203 Comments

  1. @ yamit82:
    Pay them [the Ukrainian Chabad Jews] to move to Chile. Better move fast before they all get drafted at least all the young males.

    So unless the Ukrainian Jews practice Yamit’s version of Judaism, Yamit doesn’t want them.

    I am enjoying this, Yamit!

    For months you and dove slandered me as a bigot.

    Now your real colors are coming out … and the real bigots are being revealed.

    Kept it up! You are only digging your hole deeper.

  2. Haredim Being Drafted – to Ukrainian Army Will the Haredim escape to Israel before or after the gates are closed.

    If not in Israel, then in the Ukraine. 🙂 Seems G-d has a sense of humor.

    Ultra-Orthodox yeshiva students in Kiev and other Ukrainian cities received draft notices to report to the Ukrainian army draft center, according to a report in Maariv. Yeshiva students from multiple yeshivas in Kiev, including Chabad students, were told to report to the draft center, in response to the increasing tensions with Russia. Ba’alUnlike in the IDF, Jewish soldiers in the Ukrainian army cannot get kosher food, cannot have beards, and must work on Shabbat – which is they day they clean the base. Some of the students are considering running away to Israel. The only question is, this time, will the Jews in the Ukraine decide to run away before it’s too late, or only after it’s too late.

    Rabbi Friedman says: March 4, 2014 at 7:10 PM What are Jews doing in a country that has centuries of bloody anti-Semitism? The Svvodba party has neo-Nazis in it! The heads of the Yeshivas there are playing with Shifchas Domim chas vchalilah! Shame on the Judenrat secular and religious leaders of that country

    Yechiel Baum says: March 4, 2014 at 9:44 PM TIME OF THE HAREDIM TO WAKE UP AND REALIZE THE REALITY OF TRUE LIFE AND NOT THE MAKE UP WORLD OF KOLLEL AND LIVING OFF SOMEONE ELSES HARD WORK SO LETS SEE THEM PROTEST AGAINST UKRAINE AND CALL THEM BAD WORDS LIKE THEY DO IN ISRAEL SINCE THEY CALL UP WHEN INNEED.

  3. @ CuriousAmerican:

    I am not the bigot here.

    probably not- probably much worse. Why don’t you spend your time straightening out your own denominations. They could use a lot of work..

  4. @ yamit82:
    I believe you want us to import hundreds of thousands of non Jews mostly christians to Israel.

    Never entered my mind. Seriously.

    But you are paranoid.

  5. @ dove:
    @ CuriousAmerican:
    Stop telling we what I think. A BAD habit of yours. Jews are not clones. Yamit and I disagree on MANY things. Neither YOU nor HIM understand the Jews in the diaspora the way I do!

    Do you think I don’t know what happened to the Ukrainians in WWI or the Jews in WWII? I live it everyday.

    You owe me an apology. 🙁

    I owe you nothing!

    I want those people – your Jewish kin – to live.

    You want to put them through an acceptiblity test, first.

    And you call me the bigot?!

  6. CuriousAmerican Said:

    But then I read IN JEWISH PAPERS how your rabbis scour birth records to weed out the unJewish.

    You do it to yourselves.

    I am not the bigot here.

    SAVE THE UKRAINIAN JEWS! FRUM OR NOT. MATERNAL OR PATERNAL LINES!

    They are your kin.

    🙂 🙂

    The Jewish agency operates in Ukraine and any Jew can meet with a representative and apply to immigrate to Israel under our Law of return. Those unable to finance the move will be taken care of and the Jewish Agency will pay for the trip and shipment of personal possessions. There are no restrictions barring Jews from leaving the Ukraine except those self imposed by the so called Jews themselves. If they don’t want to leave or move to Israel we ain’t got no say in the matter. If they don’t meet the very liberal standards of who is a Jew under the Israeli law of Return then you must conclude they are not Jews, period. Civilian flights travel between Israel and the Ukraine if not daily then weekly. If there is a demand the number of flights can and will be increased.

    “Operation Solomon” came about because the Jews in Ethiopia were in absolute physical danger and then only after our Chief Rabbis declared them as Jews. I know because I took part in the operation. We paid $50,000 for each Jew to the Ruling Military dictator and supplied them with various quantities of weapons.

    I believe you want us to import hundreds of thousands of non Jews mostly christians to Israel. Matter of fact you are quite transparent.

  7. Lech k’biddy mot@ CuriousAmerican:
    During one of the sieges of Jerusalem by the Romans (there were more than one) competing sects of Jews – with different definitions of who and what a Jew was – had stored up food for 5 years each to hold out against the Roman siege.

    This is a true story. I saw it on a Jewish documentary about Jewish revolts on PBS.

    Because you saw it on PBS it must be true????

    Total BS and fabrication!!!!!

    If you want a credible historical overview read it here!

    The revolt was a Messianic revolt

    “… there is no direct expression outside Josephus of the ideology of revolt” (Rajak 2002, 177). Yet much recent scholarship has attempted to appreciate the full force of the messianic character and apocalyptic beliefs and professions of many of the revolutionaries, and their impact on the prewar Jewish population at large. The scant indications in Josephus of the messianic nature and eschatological message of many of the rebels – the Sicarii if not the Zealots, and the many “prophets” and unnamed militants mentioned by Stern – combined with the relatively substantial but enigmatic corpus of apocalyptic and messianic texts from the period (e.g., Psalms of Solomon, Assumption of Moses, Sibylline Oracles III and IV, et al.), have been marshaled to create a picture of pervasive messianism throughout Palestinian Jewish society in the first century. But, except for the messianic texts from Qumran (of which the sectarians played no known role in the war), it is not possible to associate any known apocalyptic text with a revolutionary group. Nor should one expect to do so. There is no reason to believe that known groups such as the Zealots or even the Sicarii with their “fourth philosophy,” or unnamed groups, wrote their own manifestos or inspirational texts. Messianists who repeated the widely known prophecy of the next world ruler arising from Judea (recorded by Josephus, War 6:312) needed to cite no more than Numbers 24:17, or the eschatological visions in the book of Daniel. It can be said from the available evidence that messianic hopes affected all societal sectors, definitely motivated many of the revolutionary groups agitating for war with Rome, and drove the diehards in Jerusalem to expect salvation until the very end. On the other hand, Josephus tried to demonstrate in his life and writings that it was possible to be a strongly believing Jew and accept accommodation with the Roman Empire, postponing eschatological hopes for an undetermined, distant future.”

    [Jonathan Price (2nd ed.)]

  8. yamit82 Said:

    cheeks

    You need transplants then. Bet you have NEVER turned a cheek but I bet you show a few, especially the ones with horns. I’d like to pinch those cheeks .

  9. CuriousAmerican Said:

    When you start fearing Islam more than Christ, you will be in a better position.

    The only thing I fear is the Almighty.

    I do recognize enemies and never never turn the other cheek. What happens when you run out of cheeks? 😛

    The two sectarian cults that claim Judaism has been superseded by their own screeds are our enemy. Both have in different ways not only negated the truth and authenticity of Judaism but of Jews as well. Both have over the past 2 millennium tried and are still trying to eradicate Jews in the belief that they can eradicate Judaism by eliminating it’s adherents, (The Jews). Most of us know the history even up to and including the present.

    ” If you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss”. Sun Tzu

  10. CuriousAmerican Said:

    When you start fearing Islam more than Christ, you will be in a better position.

    The only thing I fear is the Almighty.

    I do recognize enemies and never never turn the other cheek. What happens when you run out of cheeks? 😛

    The two sectarian cults that claim Judaism has been superseded by their own screeds are our enemy. Both have in different ways not only negated the truth and authenticity of Judaism but of Jews as well. Both have over the past 2 millennium tried and are still trying to eradicate Jews in the belief that they can eradicate Judaism by eliminating it’s adherents, (The Jews). Most of us know the history even up to and including the present.

    ” If you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss”. Sun Tzu

    Obscenity Incorporated

    Do we not have a problem with Christian tourists in our land? The Jewish law, even Rambam the progressive thinker, categorically forbids “strange worshippers” from the Land of Israel. And don’t tell me that “worshipers of crossed planks” refers to pagans rather than Christians; reserve that nonsense for your interfaith dinners.

    Fine, no religion for a moment. Those Christian tourists are direct descendants of the crusaders, of the Christian throngs who murdered us for fifteen centuries. The cross on their necks is the same one with which the Franciscans forcibly converted our children, with which the Inquisition burned the Marranos, with which the priests led the pogrom mobs on our ghettos, and with which Christian armies annihilated us even in the twentieth century. Yes, in the early twentieth century, in Ukraine, more Jews were murdered at once than ever before the Nazis. And now the Israeli government negotiates visa-free entrance for Ukrainians. We don’t want them here at all, not a single one. Let them repent first, let them stop desecrating our synagogues and cemeteries in Ukraine, stop attacking Jews there and disseminating anti-Semitism. Let them return all the Jewish real estate they looted after massacring us—and then we might talk about normalization. Instead, the Israeli government allows commemorations of the Ukrainian famine of the 1930s. What next, are we going to shed tears over inflation in pre-Nazi Germany?

    Even for atheist Jews, is it not offensive that Christian tourists with crosses on their necks come here specifically to deny our religion? We detest anti-Zionists like Jimmy Carter coming to Israel, but those tourists reject the foundation of Zionism: Jewish faith. They go to Golgotha where their deity was executed—and all of them believe he was executed by us, and that we Jews shouted, “Let his blood be on us and our children.” Before feeling sorry about Shulhan Aruch lambasting Christians, ask them first about the decuman wave of Jew-hatred in their own scriptures, which they are coming to our country to venerate. And yes, this is our country, not an “international enclave.” When they could, they razed our synagogues and yeshivas, and it’s unimaginable that now we allow their churches to dot our holy city. Still more obscene, Israelis sing “Jerusalem of Gold” praising the Muslim gold domes and Christian bells’ chime. Even this is nothing compared to welcoming high-ranking Germans with an Israeli military (!) band playing “Deutschland Uber Alles.”

    Tourism is a source of income, that’s what you think? Better recall Voltaire, a wise anti-Semite who remarked correctly that should the Jews get their own state, they would sell it.

    More Jews were murdered in the name of Jesus than on the orders of Hitler—who was approved by Christian clerics. The Germans only carried the Christian ideas to their logical conclusion. Up to then, royal defenders of Christianity only expelled us, but murder is more logical. It does not matter whether Jesus was a good Jew or the founder of the worst anti-Semitic movement ever. We detest Wagner’s music not on its merits (and it is very bad), but because Hitler loved it. Christianity is not a theoretical discourse to be judged on its merits, but a deadly practical weapon against Jews.

    Churches in Jerusalem are a celebration of Auschwitz.

  11. @ CuriousAmerican:
    Stop telling we what I think. A BAD habit of yours. Jews are not clones. Yamit and I disagree on MANY things. Neither YOU nor HIM understand the Jews in the diaspora the way I do!

    Do you think I don’t know what happened to the Ukrainians in WWI or the Jews in WWII? I live it everyday.

    You owe me an apology. 🙁

  12. @ CuriousAmerican:
    Stop speaking for me please. A bad habit of yours. Jews are not clones. Yamit and I disagree on many things. Neither YOU nor HIM walk in MY shoes. I have a much better understand of Jews in the diaspora than either YOU or HE has.

    Do you not think that I am not aware of what happened to the Ukrainians in WW1?? I LIVE it EVERDAY along with the events of WWII.

    You oweme an apology!!

  13. @ honeybee:
    Dove is a bit of a zealot!!!

    Asi tambien es Yamit. Tú tienes que conseguir más sabiduría.

    Su opinión sobre Yamit está deficiente.

  14. @ dove:
    Excuse me? That is not what I said!

    But that is the inevitable consequences of your opinion, so you said it, whether you recognize that you said it or not.

    During one of the sieges of Jerusalem by the Romans (there were more than one) competing sects of Jews – with different definitions of who and what a Jew was – had stored up food for 5 years each to hold out against the Roman siege.

    Together these two sects of Jews could have fed Jerusalem 10 years and waited out the Roman siege.

    But they detested each other.

    One was more Orthodox. one was secular. One kept Torah with Torah giants. The other was not Frum. One group read the parshas. The other group read Greek poetry. One group segregated genders. The other group danced with the opposite sex a bit. Who knows? some ate some pork, and maybe had some half-Jewish kids.

    In modern terms, one was 100% Rabbinically approved Torah observant; the other was more secular. Who knows? maybe some were the offspring of Jewish fathers and Gentile mothers like Obed, grandfather of David, was.

    Did it matter? They were in Jerusalem; holding out against Rome.

    Well, apparently, it did matter!

    It seems the more Orthodox among them decided to impose its version of Judaism on them. So they attacked the silos of the secular Jews; and burned 5 years worth of food.

    “That’ll teach ’em to ignore Torah”

    Now, the secular would be forced to come to Torah, and get frum; or the rabbis would let them starve to death.

    But it seems the secular Jews were not so quick to forgive. The mitzvah of vengeance cuts across Jewish denominational differences. So they burned down the Torah observant frum Jewish silos.

    “That’ll teach the frum to be more tolerant.”

    Only now the Jews had no food, and the Roman siege could not be waited out.

    Jerusalem fell.

    This is a true story. I saw it on a Jewish documentary about Jewish revolts on PBS.

    You know … with all due respect … You do it to yourselves. Who needs Arafat to kill Jews with your attitudes?

    It is just as arbitrary as the Hungarian Judenrat, Rudolf Kastner.

    You got Jews in the Ukraine. You want Jews in Israel. You want settlers in Judea and Samaria. Jews from the Ukraine would be facts on the ground.

    Does it matter if it is only the Father’s side, or if they are observant? THEY ARE YOUR KIN! They might even become Frum if you do not force them.

    To you it matters!

    If they are not frum, 100% Orthodox Rabbinacally approved … who needs ’em?! Right?!

    And you call me the bigot?!

    I knew a Christian guy who was born in Germany right after the war. He said his parent had to go back to the 18th century in birth records to prove they were Aryan. It was a requirement for all Christians in Nazi Germany. Purity of Blood.

    I thought it was crazy. Nuts!

    But then I read IN JEWISH PAPERS how your rabbis scour birth records to weed out the unJewish.

    You do it to yourselves.

    I am not the bigot here.

    SAVE THE UKRAINIAN JEWS! FRUM OR NOT. MATERNAL OR PATERNAL LINES!

    They are your kin.

    And yes, your attitude says that you would let them die whether you acknowledge it or not.

  15. @ CuriousAmerican:

    Cat got your tongue? No apology? We the Jews are not clones. Yamit and I disagree on many things. Neither YOU nor HIM walk in MY shoes. I accept my circumstances but that doesn’t mean I have to like them!

  16. @ CuriousAmerican:

    Sometimes outsiders are more objective

    Not when it comes to you – You haven’t a clue!

    So if they do not do it your 100% Orthodox Rabbinical way, they deserve to die. Is that right?

    You are a sweetheart, aren’t you, dove?

    Excuse me? That is not what I said!

    Not that it is any of your business but my husband happens to be Ukrainian – so He is one of the .05% that Yamit is talking about. This hits very close to home for us. How the hell do I know what Hashem wants them to do? Stand up and fight back on the soil they are on or go to Israel and fight the war there! Either way – we (the Jews) are at war!

    and also……I said that even in the Reform that has nothing to do with Orthodox if a person has a Jewish father was not raised Jewishly they still have to go though conversion to be a Jew. They need to know and understand what it means and accept or reject it. They have free will!!

  17. @ honeybee:
    Oy honeybee……
    You are killing me!!!!
    OF COURSE THERE IS (quite a few versions for tht matter)
    What I meant was that bibi would have never uttered that….

  18. @ honeybee:

    How do you say “Piss on You” in Russian

    Ask the illegal occupant of the WH. The sob must have heard it MANY TIMES in his conversations with Putin… And surely he must remember…
    For that matter, I am sure he heard it in many many languages
    EXCEPT
    Hebrew…. 🙁

  19. @ the phoenix:

    I don’t want you to shill, I want you to bid. Any one who make jewelry is my type. TX said only my over wrought brain is for sale, the rest he keeps .

  20. @ yamit82:
    Dear yamit,
    Thank you for helping me see what I would have NEVER even contemplated to look for…
    I’ll just leave it at that.

  21. the phoenix Said:

    Once again, yamit, a real question. That comes from the quoted paragraph.
    Could you please give me an example of WHAT is it that these Haredim are contributing with their study, and what would be the “great loss” if (khass v’khalilah… 😉 ) they would devote time to OTHER endeavors.

    What benefit to your society where tens and hundreds of thousands of Canadians and Americans devote their full time and energies to non economic productive pursuits.

    Why study philosophy? Theoretical sciences? And a myriad of other subjects deemed of little value to their societies? Yet they exist and millions study them and millions are supported financially by their societies to study them.

    The Rabbis were always careful in making their rulings to distinguish between what was written expressly and what they had learnt through studying the Hebrew expressions employed in Scripture and applying logical constructs. Their aim was always to discern the intention of the written word and to apply it. This is their duty.
    To learn and study the Word of the Almighty is what we are commanded to do.

    Joshua was commanded:

    [Joshua 1:8]THIS BOOK OF THE LAW SHALL NOT DEPART OUT OF THY MOUTH; BUT THOU SHALT MEDITATE THEREIN DAY AND NIGHT, THAT THOU MAYEST OBSERVE TO DO ACCORDING TO ALL THAT IS WRITTEN THEREIN: FOR THEN THOU SHALT MAKE THY WAY PROSPEROUS, AND THEN THOU SHALT HAVE GOOD SUCCESS.

    In the Talmud all learned scholars are exhorted to study astronomy.
    From a scientific point of view the Rabbinical computations cannot be dismissed as unreliable.

    http://www.science.co.il/Hebrew-Calendar.asp

    According to the Talmud, one complete cycle of the moon around the earth takes 29.53059 days (Masechet Rosh Hashana). This value is very close to the average value measured by NASA: 29.530588.

    The difference between NASA and the Hebrew Calendar is only 00.000001!
    Maybe NASA is wrong?

  22. @ dove:
    Here we go again. A non Jew telling a Jew who is a Jew.

    Sometimes outsiders are more objective.

    @ dove:
    This is bang on. I have read many books on this. Those with a Jewish father only in most cases were not raised JEWISHLY but rather the religion of the mother so therefore even by Reform standards would have to go though the conversion process.

    So if they do not do it your 100% Orthodox Rabbinical way, they deserve to die. Is that right?

    You are a sweetheart, aren’t you, dove?

    And you call me the bigot?!

  23. @ the phoenix:

    I am certain that not to be the case

    Probably not. At an authentic kiddush there will be everything available from water to whiskey to everything in between. I usually go for a glass of wine!! 🙂 It goes very good with challah!

  24. @ yamit82:

    So, let get this strait!!! You don’t like the guy!!!!! Let me know how you are, I worry about pneumonia. Hear a Meadow Lark that is good sign!!!

  25. @ the phoenix:

    (I reiterate the medicinal value of cognac

    Unless you give it to the wrong person. I frequented this building doing research. The security man was very personable. He escorted people on and off the elevator. He told me one day that he use to work for NASA but he pushed the wrong button and ended up with this job. He said how he loved cognac – a luxury he could no longer afford. Since he was such a gentleman and very good at his job one day I brought him a bottle of cognac as a thankyou gift. He disappeared for months!! 🙁 Someone said that he was caught drinking on the job and he ‘fell off the wagon’. Yikes!! He did get his job back but no more cognac!

  26. @ yamit82:

    I admit there are some young men who excel so greatly at the study of Torah that one minute spent away from the study hall would be a terrible loss to our nation. But let’s be honest, not every young man who sits down with a book has the capacity, the intellect or the drive to become a Torah giant.

    We need a compromise that acknowledges the importance of true Torah scholars while providing the opportunity for the rest to participate in the mitzvah of defending the Jewish nation.

    Once again, yamit, a real question. That comes from the quoted paragraph.
    Could you please give me an example of WHAT is it that these Haredim are contributing with their study, and what would be the “great loss” if (khass v’khalilah… 😉 ) they would devote time to OTHER endeavors.

    A balance, somewhere?
    Some degree of multitasking?
    Am I asking the wrong questions?

    I hope you feel better… (I reiterate the medicinal value of cognac… 🙂 )

  27. @ yamit82:

    Frum or not, many of those Ukrainian Jews are the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, even if only their father was Jewish. By Genesis, they are descendents of Jacob. The Nazis considered them Jewish enough to be killed, but you do not consider them Jewish enough to live.

    Here we go again. A non Jew telling a Jew who is a Jew.

    That would make them Israelites but not Jews. A Jew is a descendent of those primarily from the tribe of Judah and have accepted the yoke of heaven meaning they accept the revelation of Sinai and are committed to observing the commandments G-d transmitted through Moses. Since anyone can become a Jew through proper conversion

    This is bang on. I have read many books on this. Those with a Jewish father only in most cases were not raised JEWISHLY but rather the religion of the mother so therefore even by Reform standards would have to go though the conversion process.

    In Judaism tribal affiliation and identification were for legal reasons mostly concerning inheritance. Defining a Jew solely on race (gentics) without the observance, belief and mitzvot is racist

    This is also bang on. If a person was not raised Jewishly how would they know if they are suppose to be Jewish or not? The ONLY way is through conversion where they will learn what is expected of them in living a Jewish life. Some will opt out and some will carry on.

    In North America however many rabbis are getting desparate and converting people who are not true converts. That gets dicey.

  28. @ yamit82:
    1,000 Missionaries Seek Phony Conversion Certificates to Enter Israel Under Law of Return

    When you start fearing Islam more than Christ, you will be in a better position.