T. Belman. David Singer has been an advocate of this deal for decades. A year ago when I posted The Ultimate Alternate Solution he argued in detail for his deal (negotiate with Jordan’s King and give them half of West Bank) rather than my deal (put Mudar Zahran in power and keep all of the West Bank). Neither of us has changed our respective positions. I submit that Bolton, when viewing the benefits of my deal, will opt for it. After all, there is nothing to negotiate and it is easier to effect.
[..]
Bolton has an answer – provided with amazing prescience on 5 January 2009 in his Washington Post article headlined “The Three-State Solution”:
“Let’s start by recognizing that trying to create a Palestinian Authority from the old PLO has failed and that any two-state solution based on the PA is stillborn. Hamas has killed the idea, and even the Holy Land is good for only one resurrection. Instead, we should look to a “three-state” approach, where Gaza is returned to Egyptian control and the West Bank in some configuration reverts to Jordanian sovereignty. Among many anomalies, today’s conflict lies within the boundaries of three states nominally at peace. Having the two Arab states re-extend their prior political authority is an authentic way to extend the zone of peace and, more important, build on governments that are providing peace and stability in their ocome close to what is necessary; we need real states with real security forces.”
Bolton still retains these views – telling Eric Shawn on 21 January 2018:
“I hope at some point the Administration recognizes and perhaps it is already quietly – that the two-state solution isn’t going anywhere. If anything I would say to King Abdullah of Jordan – “Be prepared to reassert Jordanian sovereignty over part of the West Bank – negotiate with Israel”. I think that’s a far better outcome than the continued pursuit of a mythical – I believe – unattainable viable Palestinian state”
Jordan and Egypt occupied the West Bank and Gaza respectively between 1948 and 1967.
Bolton’s appointment is shaping up as yet another Trump-inspired circuit breaker. Ambassador David Friedman has already said Abbas’ be?havior may make him irrelevant in negotiations.
Trump’s decision to accept Bolton’s advice would spell curtains for Abbas and the PLO and give Trump the momentum he needs to get meaningful Israel-Arab negotiations started.
@ Michael S:
Thanks for making that clear, you are correct I did not understand what you wrote.
@ Bear Klein:
Bear, you seem to have missed the point. I have not invited the Jordanians into Israel nor anywhere else. What I have said, and what I believe John Bolton believes, is that Jordan, Israel and Egypt are the only parties with real interests in the outcome of the Yesha dispute. Whether they come to agreement on a “chilly” or friendly basis, they still are the essential players in coming to an agreement.
@ Edgar G.:
Hi, Edgar
I regard ISIS as surrogates of Turkey.
@ Michael S:
The latest reports say that ISIS is beginning to regain strength, and perhaps flow back into that “void”………
@ Michael S:
Next time you\re talking to Yehezkel, tell him that I also have a gog -my pronounciation is difficult as I have a gumboil- but his name is “Bonzo” I wonder if there’s any connection……..? Ask him if he might have the number for the coming Mifal Hapayis… and send it on to me…Thanks .
@ Michael S:
The “Territories” you mention so offhandedly, happen to be a major part of Eretz Yisrael, and are called Yehuda and Shomron….have been for 2600 years. Only called the “Territories”, an androgynous term, for a few recent years, and by Goyim, not the indigenous people of the country.
@ Bear Klein:
Your last postulation would possibly be the best solution. THEN…Israel could go full force no holds barred, tell the UN to go to hell, and wipe up the Jordanians the way they should have been long ago. Occupy part of the country, still San Remo Eretz Yisrael.
I commented elsewhere on the very subject you mention, the infilatrators. To keep half of them for 5 years. Kids will be born, the 16,000 will have turned into 20-22 ,000 Then they’ll resist helped by the lefties. It’ll go to the \High Court in about 15 years, with about 10,000 kids who never knew another country and speak only Hebrew. They’ll gravitate, some fo them, to the Black Hebrews, adopt Polygamy and flood the country with their offspring…and more….and more Israel will be exactly where it is now with a much larger problem getting rid of them. And much more I could say.
Observation to all. Look how screwed up and complex getting rid of less than 40K illegal infiltrators from Africa is for the government of Israel.
What are the implications for actually getting rid of large amounts Arabs here? This is why I always say you start with applying Israel Law first to Area C, maybe even just the Jewish Towns and the Jordan Valley, (Towns plus all the land in the Jordan Valley as it is very sparsely populated Jew or Arab) and it is vital for security.
The intent is still in the long run to apply Israeli Law to all of Judea/Samaria but do not create extra headaches by making more Arabs residents who will be able to travel, live anywhere in Israel and have certain legal rights. Going step by step.
If Jordan became Palestine that might take heat off from the international community for Israel but it does not solve the root cause of the conflict. The Muslim “Palestinians” do not agree to a permanent Jewish State of Israel. It is even possible that a “Palestine” Jordan would make war on Israel if run by “Palestinians”.
@ Edgar G.:
You can find it with a google search done correctly.
@ Bear Klein:
Perhaps it was not you. Arnold Harris, Yamit 82, Ted and others were right there, whom we rarely see today, and I could be in error. I recall that “Justin” complimented you as being the only “fair” poster at one point. There were 167 (or 187) posts; well into the 3rd page..
I see the heading has been removed from the list at the end-or the beginning-which shows all subjects recently discussed. It was there a couple of days ago.
@ Edgar G.:
I reviewed my postings during the debate with Justin. I was basically advocating at the time for what is Bennett’s position. Israel annex all of Area C and the Pals get to run their own affairs in A/B on a municipal level control.
@ Edgar G.:
I would be curious to see what you said I wrote because frankly what you are describing I do not recall. I remember debating with Justin and pointing the errors of some of his comments and beliefs but do not remember advocating what you are describing or at least my understanding of it.
@ Michael S:
Jordanian soldiers are NOT friends of Israel and have no business west of the Jordan River. PA yes can go away especially if the stop the security cooperation. Right at the moment that is still working.
The Jordanians hate Israel and it would be very dangerous to have them in Judea/Samaria. We fought a war to get rid of them. It is a very chilly peace with them. Anyone who believes they should be in our midst does not understand the nature of the beast.
@ Bear Klein:
“USA had Israel’s back at UN again and squashed investigation by Security Council.”
I noticed that. Good job by Trump and Haley.
Concerning Bolton’s “Three State” solution, I suggested that myself to the President. It is not about “Relying on Arab countries to solve Israel’s problems”. It is about:
1. dropping the PA, which has shown no proclivity toward a realistic solution of matters, ANY matters, as an interested party, and
2. engaging the three parties (Israel, Jordan and Egypt) to solve something that only the three of them can solve. All three have been actively engaged in dealings with the Israeli & Palestinian Arabs since 1948
Unless someone advocates Israel being policed by armies and NGOs from all over the world, Bolton’s plan is the only sensible one. The Arabs in Israel & the Territories need to be effectively governed and policed. This can only happen, it seems to me, if an agreement is reached on the matter between the only entities with a history of constructive efforts in that area. Israel has already concluded peace treaties with Jordan and Egypt, despite great opposition to these moves by large numbers of people in all three countries.
Concerning Ted’s plan, I do not see how it would obviate Bolton’s underlying reasoning: Jordan, Egypt and Israel are the only states that can negotiate and carry out an effective solution to the Pal problem, no matter who is is power in any of those countries. The matter is driven by geography and history, not politics.
Israel’s northern frontier, meanwhile, can only be protected by war at this point. Syria and Lebanon are still technically at war with Israel, and both countries have not only fragile governments, but fragile prospects of continued existence as countries. Ultimately, the outcome on that front will be decided by conflict between Israel and the only effective local players: Turkey and Iran.
The Turkish position is clear:
“memri
March 7, 2018 Special Dispatch
No.7371
Turkish Newspaper Close To President Erdogan Calls To Form Joint Islamic Army To Fight Israel
“…On December 12, 2017, ahead of the summit of the Organization of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) in Istanbul, the Turkish daily Yeni ?afak, which is close to President Recep Tayyip Erdo?an and his ruling AKP party, published an article titled “A Call for Urgent Action,”which also appeared on the paper’s website under the title “What If an Army of Islam Was Formed against Israel?”…”
— https://www.memri.org/reports/turkish-newspaper-close-president-erdogan-calls-form-joint-islamic-army-fight-israel
This Turkish-led attack on Israel was foretold by Yechezkel 2500 years ago, in Ezekiel 38-39 (“Magog” does, and always has, correspond to modern Turkey geographically). Agnostics like Edgar G. have pooh-poohed this prophecy all along, yet it continues to proceed to fulfillment. At present, Turkish troops control a large chunk of NW Syria, and have three permanent bases in Iraq, while their radical Arab proxies control Idlib and other parts of Syria. Erdogan, the modern-day “Gog”, is steadily on the march, and shows no sign of letting up. After crushing the Kurds, he will be the ONLY effective advocate of the Sunnis in Iraq and Syria, and he promises to fill the vacuum left by the defeat of ISIS.
So much for Israel’s northern border. For the rest of the country, Bolton’s ideas seem like good advice.
BEAR KLEIN…I think it was You. I read Ted’s re-posting of that to-and-from with Justin from 2014 and I believe that in one post you clearly laid down what you hoped or expected would happen in Jordan,and it mirrored exactly the actions and expectations we’ve been seeing lately from Ted and Mudar Zahran.
I read every single one of the posts and the erudition of the posters amazed and subdued me. I could not have dared to contribute on that intellectual level. The marshalling of the facts and figures, as well as the one by one picking out answering “Justin’s” accusations was so unerring that those posters much have had computers and recorders inside their heads. It was a great reading and educating experience, so thanks to Ted for re-posting it.
We don’t see several of those posters these days..I wonder why…?
Very Prescient Indeed.
Pity did not squash the bug. Should make a motion “this disorganitation as in violation of its charter as has not made its annual financial statements available to all and its support and sponseship of terror should close up untill its confirmed the moon is made of blue chèese.”
@ Edgar G.:
USA had Israel’s back at UN again and squashed investigation by Security Council.
@ Bear Klein:
Yes you did, and you were right. Unfortunately not enough to make a ripple. Although the UN want’s an immediate “investigation”, knowing that Jews will not be represented because of Pesach. They can then enjoy an untrammeled Jew-hate Fest.
Like an Oktober Fest without the beer. They’ll have champagne. Pol Roger or Remy Martin VSOP.
@ honeybee:
Thank you! So Bees are not extinct!
@ Bear Klein:
Howdy Bear !!!! out of hibernation ? Stay safe
@ Edgar G.:
You once asked or commented what would happen if the Gazans would try in mass to cross into Israel. I believe I told you they would get shot.
Every plan that has included compromise and land give-a-ways has arrived stillborn. Resuscitation attempts took years, but the plan was still dead. There is no reason to think these plans will fare any better. I trust President Trump and Bolton to do their best. But their plans still include failed ideas.
None of the negotiators seem to understand that God does not want Israel to lose any more land.
Any plan that is God approved will success spectacularly. I am hopeful that Ted’s plan will bear fruit.
Chag Pesach Sameach to you too, Edgar.
SarahSue
@ Colorado Rose:
SaraSue, You’re MY Colorado Rose indeed…Chag Pesach Sameach.
I still like my plan best. One state, all of Judea, Sumeria and Gaza. All Israelis and no muslims.
God Bless America, God bless Israel.
SarahSue
Relying on Arab countries to solve Israel’s problems is fraught with uncertainty and instability. Israel needs a plan. Get rid of terrorists plus their supporters and reduce Arab population with creative humanitarian approach or a version of it.
Sovereignty Bill should be the first step.
http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/West-Bank-sovereignty-bill-on-ministerial-agenda-despite-PMs-reluctance-542254
@ Edgar G.:
The government of Israel needs a plan.
@ Bear Klein:
Someone should send him Ted’s essay or speech on “The Plan” featuring Mudar Zahran prominently highlighted or marked.
@ Sebastien Zorn:
Bolton’s exact words were:
@ Sebastien Zorn:
Heard him say it in a speech last year, “that he knows his idea is not perfect and is open to better ideas”.
Bear Klein Said:
Yes, he has.
Bear Klein Said:
You know this how, exactly?
@ Edgar G.:
Don’t ask so many questions. I can’t get into details. I don’t know what Trump will do.
@ Ted Belman:
If it does begin to happen do you envisage any interference from Trump, considering he has troops and advisors in major positions in Jordan, and seems leaning towards a different plan. Unless Trump is au fait with this expected move, it might be problematic…
@ Edgar G.:
I am hoping for that time frame.
@ Ted Belman:
Do you expect your well thought out plan with Mudar at the helm to begin in 4 weeks……??
@ Bear Klein:
Correct. How about in 4 weeks.
@ Abu Maven:
Thanks. I fixed it.
Ted, the link to the Ultimate Alternative Solution appears not to be working.
1. The peace treaty with Jordan is at the River Jordan. Israel has enough
trouble with the King at the Temple Mount. No one in their right mind is letting
Jordan get more involved in internal affairs of Israel. Jordan is not completely stable and the King and regime are subject to change. (Singer writing from Australia is not aware of this it appears).
2. Even if the King was removed and replaced the only army that should be
west of the Jordan River is the IDF. Israel fought hard and lost soliders in the 1967 war to expell the Jordanian Army from Jeruasalem, Judea and Samaria.
3. If Jordan wants to welcome Arabs from Judea/Samaria/Jerusalem as
citizens sure why not and let them move to Jordan absolutely.
4. Egypt can not handle the Siani Pennisula terrorists it is not equiped to run
Gaza nor will it want to. Neither should Israel agree to this. Egypt will not
agree to this.
5. Bolton has floated this idea for years as he believes correctly that the two
state concept is not viable. He realizes this idea of his is not perfect and is
open to new ideas.
6. Israel needs to present its paradigm needs to apply Israel Civil Law to Area C immediatedly or minimally all the Jewish Towns and the Jordan Valley as starters. It needs to reserve the right apply Israeli Civil Law to Areas A/B.
7. Real solutions will involve the destruction of the terrorists in Gaza plus Judea/Samaria. Reducing the amount of Arabs in those locations and Israeli control of all these areas. This may take a while but it is the only thing that will work in the long run. Singer and Bolton mean well with these ideas but they are potential disasters and not solutions.
Have we now forgotten that Jordan and Egypt were part of the group that attacked Israel in 1948 and have been involved in all attempts to destroy Israel if not directly but by supporting those that were directly attacking. Jordan even failed to manage the Temple Mount fairly, demonstrating their bias and fear of other Muslim states and has been belligerent on numerous occasions. Now why give them any “legal” right to any part of Judea/Samara. They cannot be trusted. Why give Gaza to Egypt whom you also cannot trust indefinitely, they also may change government at the drop of a bullet and turn on you. No the truth must be implemented and if necessary, fought for until a definitive victory is achieved