T. Belman. This plan is already 6 years old and yet they stick to the idea that when Area C is annexed Israeli citizenship should be given to Arabs living there. The Jordan Option proposed by me and Zahran, which is close to fruition, provides Jordanian citizenship for these people so there is no need to give them Israeli citizenship. Bennett’s plan does not discuss how Israel will prevent Palestinians from taking up residence in Area C or Israel. Nor does it discuss how we maintain a border between Israel and Areas A and B.
In foreign press briefing, justice minister calls for annexation of Area C, claims Palestinians may in the future agree to her plan
By RAPHAEL AHREN, TOI – 29 November 2018,
Justice Minister Ayelet Shaked speaks at the Maariv Conference in Jerusalem on October 15, 2018 (Yonatan Sindel/Flash90)
Justice Minister Ayelet Shaked has proposed a “confederation” between parts of the West Bank, Jordan, and Gaza.
“Our plan is to apply Israeli sovereignty on Area C and give the Palestinians living there full citizenship. Areas A and B will be part of a confederation, together with Jordan and Gaza,” she told journalists Wednesday in Jerusalem.
“There’s a large Palestinian population in Jordan and the Palestinians already have a state in Gaza. In the distant future, a confederation of these three entities will be the right way forward,” she added.
Responding to a reporter’s question about how she envisions the “end-game” of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Shaked, a member of the nationalist Jewish Home party, seemed to endorse party chairman Naftali Bennett’s so-called Stability Plan.
First published in 2012, that plan calls for Israeli annexation of the West Bank’s Area C, where most of the Jewish settlers live. According to the Oslo Accords, Israel has full military and administrative control over Area C, which comprises about 60 percent of the West Bank’s territory.
According to the plan, the Palestinians who reside in Area C would be offered Israeli citizenship or residency, while those living in areas A and B — which are under full Palestinian or joint Palestinian-Israel control — would govern themselves, though they would not have a sovereign state.
Bennett, whose party is categorically opposed to Palestinian statehood, has in recent months repeatedly spoken of “a Palestinian autonomy on steroids” in areas A and B.
In June, he once more dismissed the two-state solution, saying in an interview that he is “open to other ideas, like a Jordanian confederation,” though it was unclear what exactly he was referring to.
Shaked, speaking at a foreign press briefing organized by The Israel Project, acknowledged that the Palestinians currently vociferously oppose Bennett’s plan, insisting on an independent state based on the 1967 lines, but argued that their position may change over time.
“Today, they don’t agree; it may look like science fiction. But not too long ago, Israelis were sent to prison for talking to [Yasser] Arafat,” she said, referring to a time during which contacts with the Palestine Liberation Organization were illegal in Israel.
“Things change,” she added. “In the international community, they like to say that Judea and Samaria [the West Bank] are under occupation — they’re not. They’re areas under dispute. Right now the Palestinians are opposed to our plan, but maybe in the future they will agree to a confederation.”
The idea of a confederation, though in a different form, has been floated in recent months in the context of the US administration’s much-awaited peace proposal.
In September, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas said President Donald Trump’s senior peace envoys had asked him what he thinks of a confederation between Palestine and Jordan.
“I said [to the envoys, Jared Kushner and Jason Greenblatt]: Yes, I want a three-way confederation with Jordan and Israel,” Abbas said at the time.
But Greenblatt denied that a confederation was part of the plan. “We’re not looking at a confederation model,” he told The Times of Israel in September.
Last week, Shaked, a member of the security cabinet, predicted Trump’s efforts to broker an Israeli-Palestinian peace would fail.
“I think that the gap between the Palestinians and the Israelis is much too big to be bridged,” she said in an English-language interview on stage at the Jerusalem Post diplomatic conference.
“I think personally it’s a waste of time,” she added. “Although I want peace like anyone else, I think I’m just more realistic. And I know that in the current future, it is impossible.”
@ Felix Quigley:
Thanks, Felix. Perhaps you can help call attention to this regrettable situation in Israel by publicizing it in your circles and websites. Best wish, Adam.
@ Felix Quigley:
My point is that if you analysis excludes what I know then it has no merit.
@ Ted Belman:
I have long given up on following the permutations of your brain and strange practices ensuing thereof. So I simply was resorting to the interpretation of Sebastien Zorn. Do not blame me take it up with Zorn!
Adam that is exactly what needs to be put into the forefront of discussion. This is going to be an issue involving the youth of Israel, all of them, and it was the youth that carried the fight against Gaza withdrawal.
On my Facebook I am going to place a photo of Arafat kissing Khomeini. Khomeini is slobbering all over the wizened reactionary neck of Khomeini. It is a picture which is very valuable because the issue that has to be brought to the fore is that the enemy of Israel is Islam. That has to be what really sinks into the consciousness of the youth. This is also the method to defeat the antisemitism of Podemos and Corbyn etcetera. Your piece is really a mental image and is very valuable.
@ Felix Quigley:
Felix, the following article from Arutz Sheva reveals the incredible difficulties Israelis face from their own government when they attempt to “settle” in Area “C,” and the almost incredible deference of the Israeli government to Arab interests and demands in this area,.and in all of Judea-Samaria:
Sebastien Zorn Said:
You got to where I got to longtime ago! Felix to put it nicely is a waste of time and space on this blog.
@ Felix Quigley:
You know nothing about what is going on.
@ Sebastien Zorn:
“he fact remains that from Israel’s point of view, there is no urgency whatsoever in resolving these questions”
Forgive me having this thought, sounds very much like what Jews were saying round about 1931 to 1933.
Ted Belman
According to Sebastien Zorn you are depending on Trump but is is becoming ever more unlikely that Trump would ever put a finger on any present ruler in the area (actually here I am being deliberately a little vague), much less rulers that have been there a very long time, and that removal would tend towards revolution. You may have fallen victim, many do, to a feature of American political power, there are actually thousands of individuals and groups, spouting this that and the other, with their own theories.
Practically waiting for Trump may be a long wait. It therefore becomes an action in inaction.
Secondly a rule of politics is to do everything up front and to involve the greatest masses or people, in this case the Jews, in the political struggle.
No Ted Belman I think what I and Adam are saying on Section C will be very interesting to you. It will involve what is the essence of the Jewish life on earth in 2018 and gets to the essence of how to win in 2018.
@ Felix Quigley:
I would add two points…
I think this puts me in conflict with no less than Martin Sherman but what I am saying is very different to the strange politics of Caroline Glick. Sherman objects because of the long border to be defended. That is a point but in relation to what I propose a very defensive point.
I think we are all tired of Martin spouting this pay to go mantra. It has become nearly meaningless and a tad defensive.
One of the greatest things of doing what I am suggesting in Area C is that the Jews get moving on their own account and place their independence tot he very fore in relation to America, Trump, or whoever, Pence if Trump is knocked off, just anybody and anything American.
Second point is I would place the Jewish youth, and youth in the world, to the fore in this. The banner could be the young guys who were framed by your special police over that issue of the Arabs killing themselves in that feud. The youth are totally being framed by these present politicians. See what I mean.
This type of politics is ALSO the opposite of Ted Belman and this Arab guy which is also as far as Sebastien understands it a matter of Trump doing the spade work and then the Jews adapting to an American President once more. Which was never successful anywhere in the whole world. Jews at the centre of a coup yes that will do it!!!
@ Sebastien Zorn:
The term complacency oozes out of you. The concept of “wait” also.
Rather than waste a moment there is need for the most stringent critique of the present Government which as you say is a coalition. But I do not see any REAL difference between them.
Netanyahu is wasting time and my discussion with Adam is about NOT wasting time.
Plus I question EVERYTHING about Netanyahu and the whole of this Israeli clique leadership which Sherman goes on about left and right.
As we write Francoism returns to Spain that should be a danger signal for Jews so no room for this complacency.
All of these people in the leadership of all parties in Israel are more and more an irrelevance in this fast changing world. YOU OOZE COMPLACENCY!!!
@ adamdalgliesh:
I will be keen also to hear what ALL have to say on this. I do not want this to be a two way between you and me. How stupid is that idea! But with me involved with my commie horns and all that it will be!
But I thought we were focussed on Area C. It is doable nearly immediately here. And if doable here it prepares the ground for the other areas you mention. I thought that was the idea.
If not doable here not doable anywhere. Also I meant it in a very practical manner. Jews living alone. Jews on the very cusp of the modern world. All issues like Global Warming taken into account. A masterpiece. A Showplace. Defended in every way from every angle in every place on earth. The thing about Netanyahu is that he is a master at “doing nothing at all” and that has never served Jews very well at all.
The bigger question Sebastien Zorn is why you have this obsessive hatred for Leon Trotsky who many, not just me, argue as the greatest Jew in our time and here I tell people to get on kindle the trilogy by Isaac Deutscher which is great value, because many I meet are speaking out of ignorance, and that is a class act in every way.
https://www.amazon.com/Prophet-Life-Leon-Trotsky/dp/1781685606/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_14_t_0?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=KB4T8VREWAHCX917T4Q6
Sebastien Zorn as I never cease to point out Trotsky is of a different era, and I am not connected personally, but it is a political matter and although a different era with huge differences, it is the SAME essence as you can see easily in Spain where Franco is is being recreated as we speak. I do not know you and so I am not in the slightest degree antagonistic to you on a personal basis, and I wish you wealth and happiness on a personal level, but politics is a different matter entirely. As they say you may not want to talk to me but I WILL talk to you.
I will say, however, that, whereas in the long run, I am much more sympathetic to Bennett and Shaked than I am to Bibi on internal questions usually — I think this warmed over confederation nonsense is ridiculous and frankly disappointing — the fact remains that from Israel’s point of view, there is no urgency whatsoever in resolving these questions. Things can remain just as they are for quite some time if need be. The most urgent questions are questions of war and peace, diplomacy and hasbara and Bibi has shown himself to be of Churchillian caliber in these areas. This last abortive stunt by Bennett as well as his poor performance with hostile interviewers on BBC shows him to be no match for Bibi in competence, issues aside. Israel is surrounded by enemies preparing for war and this is no time to switch horses in mid-stream. I support the continuance of the present coalition government and I would hope that Shaked would go back to doing what she does best as Minister of Justice.
@ Felix Quigley:
If you think my talk is meaningless, there is no further point in responding to you. I have been more than polite in recent posts, despite your obsessive compulsive mania about inserting Trotsky into everything and engaging in gratuitous ad hominem attacks. Talk about irrelevant. Bye.
@ Felix Quigley: I agree with You , Felix, that this is not the right time or place to discuss these issues. Best wishes, Adam.
@ Felix Quigley: You are very welcome, Felix. I have a lot of urgent busines that I have been neglecting today, and possibly tomorrow as well. But as soon as I can, I will get back to you with some of my ideas for improving Israel’s situation in Area “C” as well as elswhere in Judea, Samaria, Jerusalem and Gaza (all part of the Land of Israel in my opinion), and solicit your feedback and suggestions. Thanks for volunteering your help. Best wishes, Adam.
Sebastien Zorn…Your talk is meaningless. In the next election who will you vote for. Netanyahu? After ISIS on the border?
@ Felix Quigley:
Well, if you look at what Ted has said and written, that is the essence of the Belman/Zahran plan. The U.S. controls the Jordanian military, and the U.S. President can simply tell the King, who spends most of his time abroad, anyway, not to return home and install Zahran. In the meantime, Israel can certainly apply full sovereignty to Area C, and there is no reason why the Palestinian Arabs there should be treated as anything other than foreign residents. In any case, even before or without the Belman/Zahran plan coming to fruition. Israel should maintain, legally and in principle, if not in practice at the moment, full sovereignty over all of Israel from the river to the sea, to appropriate the opposition’s slogan, while deferring full application for obvious reasons. Compensated emigration is still the way to go. Not only should terrorists’ houses be blown up but the land on which they stand should be nationalized — Basic Law forbidding alienation of national lands including waste lands — and warehoused – possibly as garbage dumps to avoid re-occupation by the Arabs – until such time as enough have been cleared to make new Jewish neighborhoods contiguous with the rest of Israel. Thus, in a small way, each murder will serve to push them out, one family at a time, instead of their stated intention of doing the same to our people.
Well Adam my brain is pretty fried this morning as well. I woke up late to hear a bitch on local radio telling the world how she put up her Christmas decorations. Then she played a song by this horror Maria Carey all she wants for Christmas is YOU!!! So I struggled out and when I started the car I had Mozart on a disc and bit by bit I felt the tension oozing out of me.
So with Mozart at my side I realized it is another day worth living for.
And bloody hell. I quote you.
“In 1967, there were no Arabs living in Area C. Even in 1993, when the Oslo Accords were signed, there were still very few Arabs in these areas. It is not clear that there were ever any Arabs who lived there.”
Indeed I have seen references to this. For example I remember one reference in an article which was exposing the role of the EU in promoting some such thing in Area C, with pictures of a group of huts if I remember it right. But overall and especially the issue of the Media of today throwing so much divergent “information” at us a picture has not truly formed inside of my “European brain. That is the harsh reality. Maybe that is partly my fault as well. You see what enemies the Jews have. They the enemies are so conscious of the reality.
But there has never really been a focused campaign.
So for a start it does not enter into the general Jewish minds.
Your piece above is most valuable to me. Thank you.
@ Felix Quigley:
@ Felix Quigley:
Hi Felix. I will do my best to brainstorm with you about what to do about the Area C situation. After a night of celebrating Hannukah, however, my brain is pretty fried and I won’t be able to come up with solutions. The best I can do for now is prode a little bit of background information.
In 1967, there were no Arabs living in Area C. Even in 1993, when the Oslo Accords were signed, there were still very few Arabs in these areas. It is not clear that there were ever any Arabs who lived there.
However, since then, the PLO “Palestinian Authority” has systematically settled tens of thousands of Arabs there to “compete” with the Jewish settlements there. They have spent hundreds of millions of dollars and have established hundreds of Arab settlements in these areas, in order to be able to lay claim to them and eventually expel the Jews.
The European Union states has worked very hard and spent hundreds of millions of dollars in “aid” to the PLO in order to finance this Arab settlement program. European diplomats from their consulates in Jerusalem, which work only with the Palestinians, not with Israelis, not only supervise and direct the establishment of these Arab settlements, but harass and even physically assault Israeli soldiers and police who try to evict any Arabs from these illegal (from Israel’s point of view) Arab settlements. This creates a major problem for the Israelis, because these European “diplomats” (some of the musclemen) have diplomatic immunity, and arresting them or even removing them from the scene creates a diplomatic incident.
Until recently, the diplomats from the u.S. consulate joined with the Europeans in financing these Arab settlements and physically harassing the Israelis if they attempted to demolish any illegal Arab buildings. This was U.S. ‘diplomatic” behavior under Obama. Just recently, when he moved the u.S. embassy to Jerusalem, Trump finally put a stop to this behavior by the U.S. Jerusalem consulate. But the Europeans have continued this behavior without interruption.
The European behavior and financing of the illegal Arab settlements in “Area C” also presents a major dilemma for the Israelis, because Israel has very extensive and profitable trade with the Europeans, which are very important to the Israeli economy. The Israelis fear that if they crack down on this European support for the illegal Arab settlements, the Europeans might retaliate by imposing economic sanctions on Israel, such as probiting trade with any Israeli company that does business with Israeli settlements in “Area C.” The Europeans claim that the Israeli settlements in this area are illegal, while the Arab settlements are legal.
A further wrinkle is that many officials of the Israeli so -called “civil administration” of this area (actually a military administration) are also sympathetic to the Arab settlers and hostile to the Jewish settlers–even though the Israel settlers have actually lived in these areas for a longer time than the Arab “counter-settlers.” These Israeli military officers often destroy Israeli so-called “outposts” in these areas, and also expel Israeli residents without trial or evidence on suspicion that they might have harassed Arabs. But these Israeli officers often refuse to demolish illegal Arab settlements, even when the Israeli government orders.
them to do so.
These are the dillemas that Israel faces in “Area C.” But at this hour of the night (10.21 EST) I am completely unable to come up with solutions, other than the suggestions I have made earlier. I will be very busy tomorrow, but will do my best to find some time to work with you on this issue. Best wishes, Adam.
Directed to Adam but really to anybody…
In relation to the Arabs that are living in Area C this is why we need to tell the Jewish story. Put very simply the history of the Jews demands that they live alone. Area C would be a test place. Could it be that Adam?
The Arabs that are there need to be found an alternative place. Look very closely at their title deeds. Certainly no aid at all. I would start there not Gaza because that is more doable quickly.
People in Europe are not realizing. In less than 40 years there is a Muslim majority winch is the same as saying Sharia rule.
Everything else fades into inconsequence. But why do people not get that? I say and argue it is because there is no socialist party.
Look at this Vox in south of Spain Andalusian election. Social Democrats are shattered, The Podemos frauds are shattered.
But how do I measure them? They oppose immigration and I agree with that and will say so. Bu then look…for Franco, for Bull Fighting, for crass capitalism such as pig production on massive scale, then they are gassed. No mention of the 40% unemployment among the youth. Iberian Lynx extinct. Dogs horrible place. Cats feral everywhere. No hope for youth, so who says THEY (calling themselves Vox (some voice!) are any answer. A very backward party in other words.
Again no alternative at all.
But you seem to be asking me not to discuss an alternative on the basis of programme while the programme of Sebastien is to wait for Trump. Come on!
There is a comical side to this. But in essence I have answered you elsewhere in speaking to Edgar. I am not personally connected to Trotsky…It is not a personal thing at all…it is just I believe that to survive we have to drive for the truth.
Let me explain better the reality of the past. It is a fact that I did not answer you in the past because what you wrote was so biased, so full of easily corrected errors. But what would it achieve. Same With Sebastiens cut and paste hatchetry.
We Trotskyists have had all of that up to our necks and paid dearly for it just as you have had Antisemitism.
I will come back to that again when the time is right and in my own organization. This is not the place.
Learning has to take place in a definite context. It is best to have calm and to be calm.
I really do want to explore this area C issue and I needed your input as well as Edgar. Problems that I did not realize there are still according to google quite a number of Arabs in section C. All aid should be removed from them. The Jews can do without them very well.
It is all interconnected. For example there are a full 5 million of Jews in America. I fight very hard against writing them off as many do…Then I see it as necessary to tell the story of the Jews abroad in perhaps a new way.
Other things strike me as relevant…What kind of housing should be built there? I will argue on the basis of global warming so that again Jews be a guide to the world.
Perhaps try to build on the basis of Jewish culture which is not the same as capitalism, because Jews existed long before capitalism.
On what basis would the children and youth be educated.
For example why not a Jewish learning and culture and atheism option.
Put it another way (these are just jumbled ideas) is it possible to remove the need for oil?
Is it possible for Jews to stride into the future on the basis of their Jewish culture, celebrations etcetera, and with or without their God. It is not a big area and it could be a model for the world with totally free electric travel.
But hard political reality…The Arabs seeing such a place will try so hard to get in…but NOT ONE
I think these Arabs will produce only Fascism and the killing of Jews and Christians and others too. This is Islam.
This is my main difference with this plan for Jordan. Also I think the main preparation should be how to refute Trump and his phoney thinking for a second state which is what he is angling for.
Unlike the last election I will not this time call for a vote for Netanyahu no matter what the cost. There needs to be an alternative party and an alternative way. I had a belly full of Netanyahu and co over Assad and Syria.
@ Edgar G.:
It is POSSIBLE that Bibi will have to leave the political landscape to end up defending himself against the ever growing allegations and quite possible legal charges against him, prior to the next elections which if conjecture is correct will happen around May of 2019.
If this ends up being the case it is possible someone like Gideon Saar could take the mantle of the Likud and hopefully he would lead legislation that will provide sovereignty in Judah/Samaria.
Felix, I withdrew from this thread because a) I didn’t want to offend Ted any more than I already had by disagreeing with his assessment of Mudar Zahran’s prospects. b0 I didn’t want to offend you by repeating my disagreement with you about the achievements and ideas of Leon Trotsky. You know that like Edgar I don’t share your admiration for him. But I don’t enjoy upsetting you by reiterating our disagreements. Sometimes in life I have withdrawn from confiversations to avoid or cool off conflicts. But it seems when I do that, I offend peope all the more? Tact has never been my forte.
Edgar I will tell you I am not personally involved with Leon Trotsky. I did not know the man. Did not meet him.
Marx did not agree with the word “Marxism” Similarly with Trotsky.
These are simply ideas, concepts that these people developed, changed some of these ideas. were in transition as experiences cut in.
The thing that I am very opposed to is the falsification of history.
Trotsky did not believe in God. He was a materialist. He also paid attention to
1. the ever changing nature of matter
2. the concept that matter can not be created or destroyed.
3. that matter preceded thought
And much more. These were very bright people.
Engels and Marx were right on top of the Darwinian revolution as it happened.
So basically what does this mean. It means that in this period of the deepening crisis in this the capitalist system everything is to play for.
It is not personal. It is a question of ideas not being shut off. And I sense that happening right across the board.
Jews have lived for 3000 years. They have persisted because of their culture.
I do think it is necessary to be able to hold on to that culture and to understand how and why, at the moment I am reading some on the Jews of Cork and the closure of the synagogue there a few years only ago…I have strong views on that.
Did Marx do that…No!
Did Lenin…No!
Did Trotsky…No nor his Father, his Mother a little!
But everybody can change and Trotsky changed very far…But that is what Sebastien Zorn lied about. I simply have a quality I got from the Celts I do not like lies.
I do not agree with what you wrote about the American Jews but that is also OK it is necessary to hold difference and explore further.
@ Edgar G.:
First point here is that Europe is finished. We need to go back to independent states. Israel could lead the way on this…I said “could”!
Second point is that Israel did have the greatest potential friend, that was Assad, at the point where Gadhafi was being butchered, and Assad saw that as him too. He was desperate.
In this keep in mind who was Obama?
Obama was Muslim Brotherhood and also Muslim Brotherhood morphing into ISIS.
Netanyahu played it wrong because he is who he is…
Where has Adam gone? perhaps down with a heavy flu? He suddenly stops in mod conversation!
For the record Edgar is the only person I have met who as a Jewish man proudly stands up and meets me in conversation. You can realize how I feel about the rest.
I made two points, going by memory and not checking on it, one that it would be a very good idea to ditch this Supreme Court. The country should be based on the will of Jews expressed in a national vote and that is it! The second point I made in direct response to Bear Klein, agreeing with his point, was the need to settle Area C, for all I know he may have spat on the pavement as an answer to me. Coz he ignored me. As for Old Gerry he and his old mates probably gathered and did a ritual dance on the photos of Marx, Engels, Lenin and Trotsky to trample them into the mud. That is right is it not Old Gerry?
I also agree in general with what Adam wrote. And so does Sebastien so I agree therefore with much of the line of Sebastien too. However I have to question this from Sebastien Zorn…
“The Belman/Zahran plan would solve the problem without putting Israel at risk but it’s up to President Trump, so it doesn’t much matter what anybody says.”
Well Sebastien wait a moment. At the very least that needs conversation.
Number one what plan? At many levels it is questionable in its content and approach. At another level what organization in Jordan does this character have? After ISIS why should we believe anything, or this or that will happen if…From past experience the Muslim Brotherhood which was ISIS will take control.
I am really sorry to say this to you Sebastien but for a long time you have been a busted flush.
Your most disgusting time was when you hacked quotes to pieces to tell lies against Leon Trotsky. So childish that I would not even start to answer because I do think most readers of Israpundit have more intelligence and saw what was happening. Also it takes so long and I do not have the time. Trotsky faced the exact same situationas the Stalinists used such lies and lying tricks.
But in the present Sebastien usually injects his piece of poison. It is at the point where he says Jews have to wait on Trump and he seems to be paralyzing Jews in the face of this nonentity. History will show him to be this (although I defend him against the Fascism of such as the CNN)
The Belman/Zahran plan would solve the problem without putting Israel at risk but it’s up to President Trump, so it doesn’t much matter what anybody says. Meanwhile, Iran has switched from its emphasis in Syria to directly supplying Hezbollah in Lebanon and is focusing on turning Lebanon and Iraq into Iranian bases to be used in future war against Israel. Iran is in Syria, Gaza, Lebanon and Iraq. In any case, any and all agreements or compromises that involved loss of Israeli security control or loss of Jewish right over land or anything else will only serve the enemy. Only Israel will consider itself legally bound by such agreements anyway in the ever-shifting sands of Arab/Muslim political entities. So, binding treaties can only hurt Israel in the long run. Was there even one example of violence and threats coming from Jordan between the Six Day War and the treaty in the 1990s? Only fear of consequences can inhibit Israel’s Muslim enemies so imposing a new legal framework — that will also be distorted in such a way as to harm Israel in the international community, as has been done over and over — will definitely come back to bite Israel.
I agree with what Adam said is the best that can be done other than wait and hope for President Trump. “I favor more practical although less dramatic measures: Forbidding the Supremes from recognizing Palestinian land claims based on alleged Jordanian land grants; requiring Arabs who claim land to prove it in a court hearing and provide documentation; recognizing Jewish declaring all land in Judea-Samaria to be state land unless proven otherwise; recognizing privately owned Jewish land and all Jewish land purchases from Arabs; allowing Jews to settle privately owned Jewish land and to settle state lands not owned by anyone, in accordance with the League of Nations mandate document; ending the destruction of Jewish “illegal outposts” (which are or should be completely legal).” Everybody is forgetting that there is a war on.
@ Felix Quigley:
As far as my experience goes…which is not great, what Israel should do is what it has been doing…that is; placating the antagonistic states, and forging greater and stronger ties with the friendly ones…which, if they hold up, will be invaluable for the future. .
Any Israelophobia of the EU will be taking a back seat to what I believe is going to happen to their over-strained “unity”….. but when…..I don’t know?. If it survives as a unit, which looks less likely today, it might emerge as a loosely knit Federation of Sovereign States each with it’s own national imperatives. with a different method of deciding Foreign Policy. Or alternately remain a smaller core of the committed states, with a fringe of former, but now Sovereign states again. They, still occupying the same land areas, will still have some common aims and goals, It’s unavoidable. Politics are like a quicksand…anyway.
Just my opinion from what see happening today. I am no political maven and could be completely wrong…
@ Felix Quigley:
The problem with me Felix, is that I have very little empathy with Trotsky. My top personal component is that I’m 100% Jew -which Trotsky showed amply, in my terms of understanding, he was not. Everything else comes well below that. And I am definitely NOT a socialist, although I have certain Liberal leanings under specific, although wide-ranging circumstances So I cannot find that there is anything that I can do PERSONALLY having, first, not the inclination (which in youth I DID have) and at my advanced age, no capability. MY thoughts and feelings on the matter cannot compare n any way -except infinitesimally- with yours, who have spent a lifetime steeped in its tenets.
I am not against the fact that Trotsky, as well as so many Jews, burdened for centuries by the horrendous Russian persecutions, became Bolshevists, and eventually a reputed 60%of the first Douma. In fact I applaud it, and it might have failed but for Trotsky’s Jewish mind and brain. But by that time he’d thrown away his Jewishness, which he may-or may not- have repented later when hunted by Stalinists.
But, as we ALL know, just like they excoriate (deservedly) Soros today, as “the Jew Soros” with Jew Hating implications….. for Goyim, when it suits them, a Jew is ALWAYS a Jew, even if he’s abandoned his faith in youth…like Soros….and Trotsky.
@ Bear Klein:
Israel will only be able to attain this if there is a smaller party which he absolutely needs to make up his coalition, which has Sovereignty at the core of it’s raison d’etre, and insists on it before entering the coalition. Then when in, if it sees typical Netanyahu politicking, malingering and faltering, be unambiguous in threatening “pullout” unless……
My opinion.
Israel hopefully will in the next elections find leadership that is bolder than Bibi in applying Israeli sovereignty to all the Land of Israel plus work on solutions that enhance security plus diminish the amount of Arabs in the Land by encouraging plus facilitating Arab emigration.
I have placed on my facebook, first article on http://www.facebook.com/felix.quigley what I think is a serious refutation of the deceased Bush in reference to his father and this disastrous family, based on writings of Duncan Campbell. Is of particular importance for Jews. This is indeed a very nasty outfit.
Edgar…The first thing that is absolutely the very first requirement, a thousand times over, is a Trotskyist Party of the youth in Israel.
I am afraid that Eliyokim (Jews News) has probably fallen into a Facebook trap. Like this Arab guy who Ted talks about I think or at least suspect he has not one youth to place at the disposal of revolution.
And it is indeed revolution no matter what way you think of it.
Europe breaks up. Europe divisions intensify. The guys in these yellow jackets are the beginnings of the socialist revolution.
May may very well lose this upcoming vote.
Ireland, the Irish Catholic bourgeoisie adeadly deadly breed, looks more and more to be ganging up on the little protestant state of the north. The PM is Indian and will ring that bell.
Spain has STILL about 40 per cent unemployment. As PSOE and Podemos inviote refugees from here there and everywhere.
People are being driven tot he stake by “Islamophobia”.
They WILL destroy Trump because Trump still does make concessions.
Syria I had better not say…
So situation for JEWS is critical and any tendency to wait and see what will turn out (The Irish version Och shure it will be all right, or the more nasty version “Shure what do you know anyway” could lead to big dangers immediately and down the line.
But I am going to go ahead and launch a party even though I have just in all honesty solo uno.
But one thing is sure…the types of Eliyokim will DO nothing, and Adam did not respond to me above re my strongly argued two proposals of action, and is more concerned about having offended Ted Belman, which in any case in my opinion he did not do in any normal extent of serious political debate, so he wasted time apologizing for nada.
@ Edgar G.:
Good analysis Edgar. I agree. There will be plenty of UN and EU resolutions. And total sanctions probably. But what else is new!
But I am anxious to know from your experience and reading on this what then is the next practical step to take.
Bear Klein if I read him right tends to be awaiting. I do not. I want to be proactive.
What is the next thing to do to not fall into the mentality of Bear Klein?
Bear Klein
“Applying Israeli sovereignty on Area C is entirely within the hands of the Knesset and not dependent on Pals or Jordanians. This should be done when political feasible within the political structure of Israel. While Bibi is PM it is not likely to happen however, unless he can the USA on board ahead of time.”
The above is both politically astute and also leaves so many inadequate things unexplored.
So you are accepting that under Netanyahu Israel is a vassal of the US?
That under Netanyahu Israel can do nothing without the direction of the US.
Thereby my main question is this what has become of the great Jewish nation which at its centre seeks to be a guide to the nations of our troubled globe?
If this is the case should this not be stated openly by somebody on the Jewish side, anybody?
And Bear Klein do you accept this state of affairs and if not what are you doing?
@ adamdalgliesh:
don’t think there would be any “conflict” with the UN and EU…beyond verbal. They are far too busy trying to keep themselves viable and together, with so many states acting against the EU “government” in Brussels. Besides, the Eastern European members, on very good terms with Israel, would cast a no vote, further alienating them from the Western states. There is an incipient breakup looming here, I think, although it may struggle on for some time yet.
Teds posting of the article on conditions in France today are devastating for any unity. The French are always “traditionally” the first to take to the streets and defy government..
Applying Israeli sovereignty on Area C is entirely within the hands of the Knesset and not dependent on Pals or Jordanians. This should be done when political feasible within the political structure of Israel. While Bibi is PM it is not likely to happen however, unless he can the USA on board ahead of time.
@ Ted Belman: I apologize, Ted, for the harsh tone of my comment earlier today. Sometimes I get carried away and indulge in dubious rhetorical flourishes. Specifically, I need to clarify that I know there is absolutely nothing wrong with your brain. I happen not to agree with your assessment of this particular matter, although I agree with you about many other issues. But I respect your views and your intelligence, whether I agree with you or not.
@ adamdalgliesh:
I have no interest in convincing you to believe me. I am simply telling you what I think.. You have a choice. You can ignore what I said or you can hope I have reason to say it. Time will tell.
@ adamdalgliesh:
The Bennett plan is also completely unrealistic, if as Shaked implies, it would only be done with the Palestinian’s consent. That is extremely unlikely ever to happen.
Answer…It will not happen. The whole purpose of “Palestinianism” a phony ideology is as the spear tip of Antisemitism, I mean world Antisemitism, the Antisemtiism still to come, the Antisemitism in an ever more deadly form, the Antisemitism that will engulg all of us
The rest of what you write is also bang on
“And I agree that adding still more hostile Arab citizens to Israel is a bad idea. If done unilaterally, this move would provoke a major conflict with the UN and EU, possibly resulting in government- enforced BDS by the EU countries, Britain, Russia, and possibly other countries.”
ANSWER…But here what is needed is far more urgent and considered action, action that must be defended, for example what is it of interest to anybody in the world how the Jews rule themselves. This supreme court is nothing but a fake copy of fake “bourgeois democracy”.
Why not have a JEWISH government that makes laws by the vote of the people and which thereby has no need for a supreme court.
THAT can be defended totally by all.
By the way the Arabs have their MKs but they must abide by the rules and no Antisemitism or they are out. That is arguable as well anywhere.
It is nobody’s business but the Jews business whether they need a “supreme court” or do not need same.
This is the ground that I on the outside prefer to fight on.
THE JEWS HAVE WENT THROUGH MANY HELLS. IT IS THEIR BUSINESS. KEEP YOUR DAMMED NOSES OUT.
You see what I am saying here Adam.
This takes the argument to a whole new level.
Keep your dammed noses out of the present affairs of the Jews.
Then education which I am convinced can only be done by a party inspired by Leon Trotsky. Read his material in the late thirties, the critical time.
For goodness sake who and what else on the outside will do this?
Name it!
I really do need an answer to this…Name it!
The Bennett plan is also completely unrealistic, if as Shaked implies, it would only be done with the Palestinian’s consent. That is extremely unlikely ever to happen. And I agree that adding still more hostile Arab citizens to Israel is a bad idea. If done unilaterally, this move would provoke a major conflict with the UN and EU, possibly resulting in government- enforced BDS by the EU countries, Britain, Russia, and possibly other countries. I favor more practical although less dramatic measures: Forbidding the Supremes from recognizing Palestinian land claims based on alleged Jordanian land grants; requiring Arabs who claim land to prove it in a court hearing and provide documentation; recognizing Jewish declaring all land in Judea-Samaria to be state land unless proven otherwise; recognizing privately owned Jewish land and all Jewish land purchases from Arabs; allowing Jews to settle privately owned Jewish land and to settle state lands not owned by anyone, in accordance with the League of Nations mandate document; ending the destruction of Jewish “illegal outposts” (which are or should be completely legal). In time, this would result in an increase in Jewish population and the gradaul departure of the Arabs, and wouldn’t even cost Israeli taxpayers anything.
“Close to fruition?” We have only your word for this, Ted. Not a scintilla of evidence. Your friend Mr. Zahran is not even mentioned in any of the USG’s websites. No reference to his ever having met a USG official , or much the less Trump. Also, no evidence that I have been able to find that he has substantial support in Jordan. He is a good guy and I wish him well. But his ambition to rule Jordan “close to fruition?” The only evidence for this is in Ted’s brain.
When you see the WHOLE sometimes you make a decision to act partially…that is the essence of area C
The Israeli leaders…let us see if they can act…Netanyahu had the power but did not act…that is THE essence
For Edgar…must see as Gestalt…understand well each part…then see the whole…yes C is the immediate
For Edgar…must see as Gestalt…understand well each part…then see the whole
OFF THE TABLE…possible and correct…also doable
The plan by Bennett & Shaked is a little bit smoke and mirrors. It is a broad blue print actually and not a detailed plan.
In reality they mean it is possible to have Arab residents of Area C become citizens sort of like in Jerusalem but in actuality just like in Jerusalem it may not actually happen accept in a minority of cases. Also they the plan is subject to great change.
What is important is to apply sovereignty to Area C and all the Jewish Towns. Then to build extensively. Take this land off of the table for good.
Yes the details are very important and the points Ted brings up are important. To start this plan takes no outside forces to be involved for approval.