REDACTED
T. Belman. I have taken a lot of heat for siding with Putin and not Biden. Yesterday I posted a video by Dr Turley with whom I often agree. But the comments totally rejected him. REDACTED totally agrees with Turley too. So does Alexander Mecouris whom I also follow as does TFIG.
It doesn’t matter whether the west recognizes the annexation of the Donbass. The West has to reconsider whether they will attack the Donbass when Russia claims it as their sovereign territory. I think the West will back off.
I highly recommend this video.
@Tanna
@Mike What, you find tee-shirts old fashioned and funny you GenZer. 😀
Harumph, these young whippersnappers, today.
https://youtu.be/VVN6riqhuio
Hi, Seb. 😀
Hi, Tanna. You said,
All is forgiven. I don’t know where that “Rosh=Russia” stuff originated, but American Evangelicals really ate it up. It was an early eruption of “RussiaRussiaRussia!” super-patriotism. I never took the cool aid
Around 10-20 years ago, Putin never missed an opportunity to portray the he-man image: doing tae kwan do, and using every opportunity to take his shirt off in public. The photo is of a genuine Russian Orthodox baptism ritual, in ice-cold water. He is indeed Russian Orthodox, and panders to the vast RO majority in that country. He also is no friend of Israel, though he has often cooperated with the IDF by temporarily shutting down Russian-supplied air defense systems in Syria. At heart, he appears to be completely self-serving in both religion and ideology. I think he was genuine about martial arts, though, having been a KGB agent.
In the city I grew up in (Milwaukee), chopping through the ice and swimming in Lake Michigan was an annual event, sponsored by the “Polar Bear Club”. I never participated. In the summer, I did swim there in the typically 60 degree F water. It goes with the climate.
Michael,
Maybe I misremembered? But I was sure several years ago you equated Rosh with Russia. My bad! as to the picture. What does it mean? Is it a Mikva, Christian baptism or just swimming in cold water for health reasons? Years ago, I use to watch an old Chinese man swim out into the ocean ever morning as far as the eye could see. Ice was in the water. He had nothing on but the smallest swimsuit. When he came back on shore he was as orange as a carrot. All I could say was: WHAT A MAN!
@Michael There should be tee-shirts, hata, bumperstickers and billboards that say, “Gen 12:3”
@Michael Genesis 12:3 applies to everyone.
Tanna,
Is this the Putin you’re referring to?
https://imgs.search.brave.com/yrR4slAb_7Ms14j5ugVz2EP725_TtZKgW2hKEeKQZj4/rs:fit:1000:541:1/g:ce/aHR0cHM6Ly9jZG4x/LmltZy5zcHV0bmlr/bmV3cy5jb20vaW1n/LzEwNjA4Ny80OC8x/MDYwODc0ODI1XzA6/MjA0OjMwMjU6MTgz/N18xMDAweDU0MV84/MF8wXzBfMzE3MjM2/OTNiYmMwZjdjZjFk/MDg5ODM3NjQ1NjFi/ZGYuanBn
Tanna, you said,
See my response to Sebastien: I do NOT believe Gog and Magog is (sic) Russia; nor do I know which “Gog and Magog” you are talking about
Are you implying that Jews should be biased in support of Putin? I never read this in my siddur.
Hi, Sebastien. You said,
My bad — I didn’t bother looking up Gen.12:3, which is,
Gen.12:
[3] And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
It never occurred to me, that you thought Gen. 12:3 referred to Russia. Some people (I not among them) believe “Magog, Meshech and Tubal” somehow refer to Russia:
Gen.10:
[1] Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.
[2] The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.
The answer to your initial question, then, is, “Gen.12:3 says nothing explicitly about Russia”.
Years ago, I wonder into a group, quite by divine providence of Academics. PHD’s setting around discussing the issue, the current topic of the evening.
We were like a group of old friends who met on occasion to sip wine, drink beer, smoke a few cigars while we solved the problems of politics, religion and any other world problem of the day. I was like an orgasmic fly on the wall. The highlight of one evening was when one scholar stopped the discussion, looked straight at me called my name and wanted to hear my thoughts on the subject at hand. Less than a minute in another PHD stopped me because I did not have a PHD, but the one whom asked for my opinion shut him down and said….. let him finish. The point of the story! I learn so much listening to you guys and gals…….
Peloni said:
“The US can’t successfully fight Russia beyond a nuclear exchange, and I believe this is what has kept the Deep State from directly engaging Russia. I believe that this same realization keeping the US from acknowledging their role on the battlefield in Ukraine will similarly result in the ruling powers within the Deep State respecting Russia’s new borders while they continue to pontificate about ‘Russia’s outrageous actions’. But we will soon see if this conclusion is accurate.”
I agree, there may be a nuke exchange, but I do not believe it will be to American soil. Someone made a comment that this has nothing to do with Israel. I think differently.
Each of you need to listen to John Mearshimer’s talk in 2015.
Then listen to the Utube of his about 5 months ago.
Then listen to the one 2 months ago.
He’s been correct since 2014 or so on this Ukraine issue. I know he’s not too keen on Israel. I’m not for Putin….. I’m for truth and justice. America has been controlling the world all my life. Comparing Russia with the USA is like comparing to fat ugly sisters. I believe time for the USA to rule is coming to an end. Does not mean they will disappear!
Europe and Germany and all the guilty ones have not paid for their sin against the Jews during WW2. Neither do I think America has either. Somewhere the scales have to be balanced. The Rabbis teach repentance and suffering both bring the same result.
Attached is a link to what is happening on the other side of the world our news media acts like nothing happens anywhere but, in the USA, and then they lie about everything. America and Israel are attached at the hip, maybe unlike any other nation. One must go down in statue before the other can come up. Israel is on the way up!
https://asiatimes.com/2022/09/vostok-2022-the-military-convergence-of-eurasia/?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email
I can see no further into the future than anyone else here. But Hashem is in control of everything and if not, Hashem is not in control of anything!
Michael S. me thinks you’re to bias against Russia due to your Christian misunderstanding of who Gog and Magog is. Don’t ask who it is I don’t know…. just not Putin!
@Michael What table of nations. I said, Genesis 12:3 regarding Russia.
“I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.”
I was though also thinking but didn’t say
Numbers 33:55-6
55 “‘But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land, those you allow to remain will become barbs in your eyes and thorns in your sides. They will give you trouble in the land where you will live. 56 And then I will do to you what I plan to do to them.’
@ketzel2
No. That’s why I can’t keep it up because I can’t produce the sea of information required to explain things to you, and even if I did, it wouldn’t change your opinion about what is going on in Ukraine – I think it is impossible to change anyone’s opinion about anything, anyway.
So, let’s agree to disagree.
Shanah Tovah!
@Reader wrote:
Is that your idea of a conversation?
@Michael
Really? No one has ever tried?
How about the Second World War – here is some info on the topic:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost
I am convinced that “the Western world” is now replaying WWII but instead of using the German proxies who proved to be too violent, they are using their favorite anti-Russian weapon – Ukraine.
This is much “nicer” because the only blood being shed is that of the Slavic “Untermenschen” while the “Aryans” get to pour gasoline onto the fire and watch the slaughter on their big screen TVs while munching popcorn.
I am afraid that the US will use nuclear weapons in Ukraine and say that the Russians did it.
@ketzel2
I am not a fan of Putin or any other politician, and I said many times on this forum that I don’t idolize politicians, I don’t view politics as sports or gladiatorial games, I am convinced that no single person is capable of running a country all by himself even if he is an absolute monarch.
Putin or anybody else in Russia is not “out to get us”.
It is the US and “the civilized Western world” who are out to get Russia (as usual).
The US has 900 military bases around the world and more than 4500 military bases in the US – WHY?
Because the US government wants to impose its will on the rest of the world or else!
Russia has 8 or 9 military bases outside of Russia.
This sounds completely paranoid.
The BRICS nations want to work together, not rescue anyone from from their government or “take their stuff”.
Anyway, you seem so brainwashed, it is impossible to reason with you, it is exhausting.
Hi, Peloni
I think I totally agree with your most recent post to me 😮 I really enjoyed the “official sock puppet” remark
https://frankspeech.com/sites/default/files/styles/large_teaser_card/public/2022-09/biden.shutterstock_1362500387-758×506.jpg?itok=SALTHGe6
Some people think Obama is the one pulling the strings; but I think he’s just the “straight man” puppet to Biden’s clown. You mentioned “rule by committee”. Yes…
Just a self-talk interlude here: The New Testament talks about a three-part government in the end of days: The front man is the ( 1 ) False Prophet — which could be thought of as a person such as Fauci (“Mr. Science”), the MSM, AI, etc. He does the bidding of the “chief puppeteer”, aka ( 2 ) “the Beast”, which has a collective consciousness similar to the DAVOS agenda; and the one behind it all is the great hypnotist himself, ( 3 ) the Devil.
Yes. I accept your suspicion that
Biden could very well go off the handle, even with the nuclear codes; but I think those are actually controlled by the DOD and NSA, in consultation with the likes of Pelosi. We do have a “fail-safe” mechanism, in that respect.
For the time being, “The Three Kings” (the NSA/ G7, Putin and Xi) seem to be keeping the show going for their mutual self-benefit. Of course, any or all of them could collapse at the drop of a hat.
Shalom shalom. L’shanna tova 🙂
Yes, I agree, nothing.
By the way, I have no ‘beef’ with anything outside of the comparison which you made between the what is going on in Europe and ‘the struggle’ between Israel and the PLO, or the Arab nations surrounding her. I believe it is a false comparison, as I have explained. It’s not personal, I just disagree with the comparison as being valid.
In any event, regarding the subject of Biden being rational, I would suggest, and I believe there is ample support for this, that Biden is not making decisions guiding US policy. The war between Trump and the Deep State did result in a Biden presidency*, but this presidency* has only empowered Biden to fulfill the role of the national sock puppet in chief reading from a prepared script. The consequence of this it that he utters contradictions everytime he offers an unscripted comment of his own. This contradiction of the actual policies being enacted by the govt and the presumed chief executive’s statements has resulted in the govt later issuing “corrections” to the president*’s statements. In essence, I believe the outcome of the war between Trump and the DSeep state was to see the Deep State ruling the country. Biden’s input beyond making public statements which his masters later correct, is minimal. His words are damaging to the US of course, but do not represent US policy.
Meanwhile, the Deep State itself is caught in a bit of a struggle as to what policy is to be followed. I believe saner minds will take hold in the Ukraine scenario and prevent any actions being taken against Russia’s new borders. Of course, it is not a certainty, and rule by committee never provides a steady, consistent policy, but the US has specifically and consistently hidden its direct role in the Ukraine war, such as when they failed to take credit for the sinking of the Russian flagship. Russia has allowed the US to maintain her keystone cop distance from responsibility upto this point, and the Deep State took full advantage of this fact in fueling the contest in Ukraine thus far. However, Putin has now drawn a line in the sand, and unlike the US, Russia will respond to any violation of her Red Lines.
The US can’t successfully fight Russia beyond a nuclear exchange, and I believe this is what has kept the Deep State from directly engaging Russia. I believe that this same realization keeping the US from acknowledging their role on the battlefield in Ukraine will similarly result in the ruling powers within the Deep State respecting Russia’s new borders while they continue to pontificate about ‘Russia’s outrageous actions’. But we will soon see if this conclusion is accurate.
Peloni,
BTW, I don’t know how you’ve veered so far from understanding some pretty simple things I posted here in the first place. Ted started it all, by gushing with praise for Peterson’s logic. You chimed in, agreeing with Ted. Well enough, but I honestly said I disagreed; and the reason I disagreed, which nobody seems to have really considered, is that Peterson was playing the same game of “Russian Roulette” as Ted, Putin, Biden, the whole slew of them.
Peterson flatly said that he didn’t think Biden would retaliate to Russian nukes because “there’s nothing in it for him”. I disagree. I don’t believe Biden is rational; and if this game is allowed to continue, we all very well could be sheltering in caves and listening to our Geiger counters click.
None of this, of course, has anything to do with the Jews or Israel — this conversation has veered WAY off course.
@Michael
I was trying to understand the reason for your statement, so if the first paragraph is wrong, accept my appology and address the rest of the post which you seem to have ignored entirely and which is directly responsive to your very words, as was my previous post.
Hi, Sebastian. You said,
I don’t know what you mean by the “biblical post”. The only mention of the Bible I recall, concerned Genesis 10’s Table of Nations. Someone else may have said God commands (the Jews?) to “drive the bastards (the Pal Arabs?) out.
God did indeed command the Israelites to drive out the aboriginal Canaanites — whose descendants, it could be argued, are the modern Lebanese. Israel obviously HASN’T driven them out, nor the Gazans nor the Damascene Syrians nor the Israeli Arabs, nor does the current government intend to; though the Arab League has made several serious efforts to drive Israeli Jews off their rightful inheritance. I really don’t have a dog in that race: If even the Israeli Jews don’t want to take possession of their own land, how can I be expected to criticize them? I’ll let the Jews decide their own business.
As for a referendum in parts or all of Yesha, you know as well as I do that Israel’s enemies will use ANY pretext, legitimate or not, to steal Israeli land by any means. This is nothing new.
Hello again, Reader. You said,
Yes, the two operations have similarities — especially if one is to believe Putin genuinely believes the G7 et al want to exterminate the Russian people, as the Arab League vocally announced their intention to exterminate the Jews in 1967.
My understanding of history leads me to believe, however, that this is not reasonable: Israel truly was wiped off the map circa 70 AD/ CE, for an incredible 1900 years. Several attempts have been made to subjugate Russia (The most successful having been the Mongols making vassals of Novgorod); but nobody has even tried to exterminate the Russian people.
Also @Reader
you say their separatist position is justified because Ukraine won’t let them be educated in their language. In the USA, all ethnic groups speak English in school. Some blue states used to have separate programs to educate immigrants in their native language, and they were rightly ridiculed. The refusal to learn and use the official language of the country of which one is a citizen is already a separatist act. I still want to know more, but the language thing is not a good reason to secede and steal territory. I assume the Mexicans in Chula Vista speak good American English in school. If they refused, what would you think of that? Should they seize Chula Vista from San Diego?
Hi, Reader. You said,
I’m glad you weren’t accusing me of the things you identify with “the Western world”.
Peloni, you said,
Why are you pretending I implied things that I’ve never dreamed of? What the hell is your beef!
@Reader Your comment shows why I have to keep saying I’m neutral, I despise the corrupt puppet Zelensky, etc etc. I am not a fan of Ukraine. But I have questions for the fans of Putin. That’s all. I think its a mistake to be fans of someone who is out to get us. One can think the BRICS project makes sense, but the problem is, it will wreck us just as much as our own government is wrecking us. There is a third way, and it’s not to be partisan against ourselves. The BRICS nations want to kill us and take our stuff, not rescue us from our government.
I watched the video where the commentators played Putin’s speech. Putin said the violence started after the people of Donetsk and Luhansk refused to recognize the elected government. So this is a provocation. I wouldn’t have bombed them regardless, but Putin himself said the territories were rebellious before the bombing started.
I am genuinely curious to know more about this. What is the exact timeline. I think Zelensky didn’t get elected until 2019, and his platform was to negotiate with Russia to resolve that situation, and then he did the opposite. So at least the Ukrainian people at that time wanted peace but didn’t get it because they voted for a NATO and NWO shill. Still doesn’t make Putin the good guy.
Also: in the 19th century, Russia suppressed the Ukrainian language. The literary figure Shevchenko was persecuted by the Tsar for publishing literature in Ukrainian. Just throwing that out there, people in Eastern Europe remember this stuff, so they may want their language to be the official language. Especially since Putin talks about Ukraine like he owns it, who wouldn’t feel threatened?
Yeah, I agree with you about attacking the nuclear plant. They’re out of their minds. That’s why I’m neutral. We should have nothing to do with crazy people on both sides. Putin is crazy too, people are fooled because he’s a good public speaker. His Russian is beautiful, I don’t understand a word but I can hear every syllable, very impressive.
Another point that isn’t discussed enough: almost every country in Europe has borders that are somewhat arbitrary, in that ethnic populations that “belong” to neighboring countries live in and are citizens of the country they lived in before the borders were redrawn as punishment after being on the losing side of a war, or for other reasons. There is a large ethnic Hungarian population in Serbia on the border with Hungary. They know who they are, still have lots of Hungarian bakeries etc. Should they vote to join Hungary? There are Hungarians in Romania. And Alsace-Lorraine has changed hands a few times. Let’s do it again, have a referendum and a war!
Why do Hungarians live peacefully in Serbia, even though their area used to be part of Hungary? It’s because no one is stirring them up. Hungarian citizens shop in the big market in Subotica, Serbia, then go back to Hungary. Everyone gets along. What would happen if the Hungarians in Serbia voted to move the border? Maybe Serbia would fight them; personally I think Hungary is a more pleasant country, but the Serbs wouldn’t be wrong to fight for their territory. This is why there absolutely has to be more to the story of, Luhansk and Donetsk want to be independent and then join Russia. This is illegal, everywhere in the world people refrain from doing that because it’s crazy. What kind of enabling and codependence is everyone showing, that they pretend not to notice that this is simply not done! If a Hungarian stuck in Serbia can’t live in Serbia, they can move to Hungary. The land doesn’t go with them! So the Luhansk Donetsk situation is an exception. Can someone explain why they’re so special that they get to vote on national borders?
Also: the situation re Armenia, Azerbaijan and Artsakh-Karabakh is somewhat similar, although the separatists in A-K seem to me to have a stronger case. And guess what, Russia has a treaty with Armenia to protect it. Why isn’t Russia doing more for those embattled separatists? I suspect the answer is the same answer to the question I asked in the first paragraph. Somehow, Donetsk and Luhansk are so special, they are an exception to every other similar situation in the world.
@ketzel2
In all of your examples the separatists would be justified in conducting a referendum if the PTB:
1) treated them as 2nd class citizens by forbidding them to speak their language, be educated in that language, etc.;
2) declared an “anti-terrorist” operation against their living areas and kept shooting at their residential areas hitting hotels, hospitals, schools, restaurants, etc. which would result in several dead civilians every day including women and children (tens of thousands overall);
3) bombed the local nuclear plant and its surroundings risking a Chernobyl-like nuclear catastrophe.
I think the fans of Ukraine tend to leave out a lot.
They left out a few things. They seem to take for granted that a referendum is the way to change the status of land. They briefly mention that the Donbas and Luhansk people didn’t recognize the new government, and ever since, Ukraine had been bombing them. Okay, so even if I personally don’t think these territories are our problem and we should be out of there, I still want to know, do people refuse to recognize a government, and decide to join their land to a neighboring country, and no one thinks the country that the territories are part of can respond militarily?
Example: there are many Cubans in Florida. Let’s say the Cubans in Miami, I know they’re anti-communist, but let’s say the trendy young people vote to join Cuba. They no longer recognize DC, and start organizing as if they were part of Cuba. What does the US govt. do? And Cuba accepts this, starts sending Cuban-Americans Cuban passports and other support.
Example: Puerto Rico votes to join Mexico, because they’re just fed up with being run by pinche gringos.
Example: Chula Vista, a Mexican-American suburb of San Diego, votes to join Tijuana. They move Trump’s wall a few miles north.
Example: Trump voters don’t recognize Biden, they say he stole the election. Several red states secede, after a referendum, and the new country is called Trumpland. What does the federal government do?
Remember the Civil War? What was that about, why didn’t Lincoln let them go, they wanted to do their thing, what was the problem?
Example: Taiwan votes to keep China out, they want to stay independent. No problem, China backs off, they had a referendum! See how that works, it doesn’t. It only works for the anti-American side, because some people who have youtube shows want to be edgy.
Also, please review how Russia took over Abkhazia. There were just as many Georgians living there as Abkhazians, but Russia decided the Abkhazians were oppressed, and helped Abkhazia drive out the Georgians, take their property, and voila. No referendum, just theft and murder. So Russia has done this before.
Some of you people should stop being so clever. Of course Putin is smart and makes his case well. That doesn’t mean he’s right. He and his fans are leaving out so much.
@Michael The 2 posts are unrelated and actually contradictory. The biblical one says just drive the bastards out. The legalistic one takes you up on your warning that a refererendum could apply to Yesha.
@Michael S.
Actually, there is a logical way to do this.
The “special operation” that Russia started on 02-24-22 is very similar in context to the preempltive Six Day War which Israel conducted after realizing that its very existence including that of its Jewish population was being threatened by the Arab countries that surrounded Israel.
Of course, the threats against Russia by “the Western world” were not expressed as publicly and vehemently as those by the Arab countries against Israel in the 1960s but it is well known (and it is not a conspiracy theory) that the West led by the US has been planning to break up Russia into a number of ethnic states (Russia actually has almost 200 different ethnicities – think of the potential!) and then take over its land (which occupies almost the whole continent – no comparison here with Israel) and resources.
In fact, the West has been trying to conquer Russia for a few centuries now.
It has never worked but hope is the last to die, I guess.
It must be comforting to fantasize about the “colossus on clay feet” and how it is going to finally collapse forever.
@Michael S.
I brought up Serbia as an example of “the Western world” letting itself to establish any precedents it wants with impunity and no regard for the UN or “international law” while denying any rights to the “Untermenschen” residing anywhere else outside of “the Western world”.
This has nothing to do with you personally.
Russia has destroyed The EU By putting forward it’s own Commodities based global financial system led by gold.Watch as the EU falls apart in a cold upcoming winter with little to Eat.
First will be the Germans who may be able to survive as an Industrialized Exporting Nation,…The rest of the EU will be like the Balkans!
@Michael
First, I believe the point you are trying to raise here is that Russia violated Ukraine’s borders, so any nation would have a similar right to do the same. In doing so, however, you eliminate the context of Russia’s actions, and pull Israel into a comparison which is not comparable in any measure.
Next, lets address this
I have made no reference or allusion to Area C, B or A. Please show me where you found an allusion to this in my statement. I re-read my words, and there is no allusion in them.
Secondly, don’t be disappointed in me, as I only responded to exactly what you actually did say:
so thank you for that.
Now you have somewhat changed that short statement into
This is a bit more specific than your previous statement which was a bit vague, so thank you for adding a bit of clarity in your meaning. You do, however, seem to raise the issue of Yesha after rebuking me for alluding to it, despite the fact I did not do so. This is a little ironic, so I thought I would note it 🙂 .
In any event, the false comparison you raise here in your revised statement still fails to improve. Russia is a recognized state going back centuries. Their neighboring state of Ukraine had been on very good terms with Russia as well as with their Russian ethnic citizenry, or at least they were not launching missiles, dropping bombs or burning them alive, in any event. That all changed with the NATO coup of 2014.
As you have stated, Russia has a right to defend itself from attack, just as any other nation does. She made it clear that she perceived Ukraine’s military build up along her border and the Ukrainian president’s statements advancing NATO membership to be a strategic threat. The result of sharing her concerns was to see the Ukrainian army begin a massive shelling bombardment along Russia’s border against the Russian ethnic Ukrainians, while Zelensky simultaneously threatened to re-acquire nuclear weapons specifically so he could better contend with Russia. Russia had a clear and present danger being made by a rabidly anti-Russian power, armed and funded by a rabidly anti-Russian intranational organization(NATO) with deep pockets, and Russia reacted as any rational country would. As Ted correctly noted, any country with an ethnic population under military attack would also reasonably have responded to such attacks as had been lodged against the Dombassers, only Russia held back from doing so for 8yrs. None of this is relevant to actions taking place in Yesha. There is no Israeli army massing along Jordan’s borders. No one is threatening Jordan. No one is attacking Jordanians living in Israel. The Israeli army is not trained or funded by anti-Jordanian extranational powers. Furthermore, if Jordan could find the means to conquer Yesha, she would not negotiate with Israel, she would offer no warnings to the Jews, and she would not hesitate to enter Israel and murder every person they found. Any metaphor comparing the struggle in Ukraine to that in Israel is simply a false one, and a fairly insulting one at that, if I might add.
Should Israel ever become dominated by a rabid Jordanian hating govt, intent upon the butchery of the Pals along the Jordanian border, and made every attempt to crush and destroy them, and Jordan waited 8yrs before responding to such a threat, but made serious efforts to prevent war before beginning hostilities, well, then we could take another look at your metaphor. Til then, I think it fails any logical comparison.
Hello again, Sebastien. You said,
Bring WHAT on? Cream for your tea? The Jews have been the majority in Area C since its creation. Have I ever mentioned Area C here? You know I’m a “Bible freak”. Does the Bible ever mention an “Area C”? How did that worm get into our tomato?
Hi, Sebastien. You said,
It’s a pleasure, to actually discuss the Bible here — with anyone!
Your emoji is right on. Russia is NEVER mentioned in the Bible. The “Rus”, a Scandinavian tribe from which the country derives its name (They ruled from Ki’iv, by the way, as you probably know) did not come on the scene until late in the first millennium AD/ CE.
Hi, Reader. You said,
“@Michael S.
And what the US and NATO did to Serbia in 1999 is not a dangerous precedent?”
Why are you bringing up Serbia? For the record, I supported Milosevic against NATO at the time, and said at the time that the US had no business in the matter; but I have said nothing about the matter lately. Are you trying to find some dry bone to hit me over the head with?
Ted, you said,
I have said nothing, anywhere, about war crimes. Are you trying to create some sort of straw man?
Did I ever say they did? What are you trying to get at??
I have never said this was NOT an internal Ukrainian affair to begin with, though it has obviously morphed into a proxy war.
BS. The intelligence services of both the US and Russia have both had their hands monied and bloodied by deals with corrupt players in the Ukraine, ever since its independence. I will not try to “prove” this to you. None of these dealings excuse either side from further interfering in this mess they both have created.
Peloni,
If you can’t understand the simple thing I said, I am very disappointed in you:
The Ukraine is an internationally recognized sovereign state (it has had a seat in the UNSC since 1945 — longer even than Israel); “the Dombassers (sic)” are not. This is EXACTLY THE SAME as the relationship between Israel and “the Palestinians”
There is no logical way, in which you can excuse Russia’s occupation of the Ukraine, without simultaneously recognizing the (absurd) “right” of an Arab state, such as Jordan, Syria or Iraq, to occupy (much less annex) Yesh.
Your allusion to “Area C” is likewise irrelevant. I did not even mention it.
@ Michael The Jews are the majority in Area C. Referendum? Bring it on! ?
@Michael Genesis 12:3. You love to quote the bible. Where does Russia fit in there, do you suppose? 😀
https://www.algemeiner.com/2022/09/24/iran-regrets-ukraines-downgrading-of-ties-over-drones/
Victory to Ukraine! Screw the Russkies.
@Michael
@Peloni
Very detailed. I always learn from you.
@Michael
Forgive me, but comparing the struggle between Israel and the PLO is quite unlike the struggle between Ukraine and the Dombassers in every way I can think of comparing them. In fact, I believe this is a statement made in bad faith, unless you care to supply an explanation as to how Israel’s struggle with the PLO is anything remotely similar to that of Ukraine with regards to the Dombassers.
This is not gaslighting, because it was a war of conquest. The term conquest is defined by Wiki as follows:
This is exactly what the Ukrainian Nazi/Nationalists were doing to the people of the Dombas. The Dombassers only became ‘separatists’ because of the persecution being perpetrated against them by the govt after the US coup in 2014. In fact, the Russo Ukrainians had no interest in being Russian prior to 2014, at least outside of Crimea, as they were proud of their Ukrainian heritage, albeit with a multicultural, Russo ethnic blend. The govt which the US put in place in Kiev raised a Nazi paramilitary group under the command of an unapologetic Nazi leader (Andriye Biletsky), intent upon the purification of the Ukrainian people. Biletsky’s Azov battalion was incorporated into the state sanctioned armed forces as it set about conquering and subjugating the people of Dombas. These forces were held as the elite role models for the Ukrainian military over the years. Believe it or not, they were quite bad but not the worst of such battalions. Excavation of mass graves from the butchery left in their wake in Dombass have been ongoing since 2017 by George Ellison.
With all due respect to Ketzel, and you as well, you are each wrong here. The dangerous precedent had been set more than 20yrs ago, in 1999, by NATO in their war of conquest over Serbia, followed by the establishment of Kosovo.
Despite this already established precedent, I suggest Russia had no desire to be where she is today, and it is only due to a lack of reasonable alternatives that she has come to this point, or she could have and would have arrived here much sooner. When first the Nazi’s and later the West, prevented the Ukrainian govt from seeking a settlement with Russia, what should the Russians have done? Left the people of Dombass to be butchered as the well over 100K NATO trained and armed forces, Nazis and Marines, raised the most intense attack in Dombas yet, all along the Russian border. While abandoning the Dombassers, should Russia also have ignored the threats of invasion by Ukraine? Should they have ignored the threat of Ukraine’s seeking to be a nuclear armed power to challenge Russia? No, Russia should have viewed the marshal nature of their neighbor, with its massive veteran army actively murdering ethnic Russians on the Russian border as a potential threat, which they did. Russia should have warned Ukraine to stand down, which they did. Russia should have attempted to negotiate a settlement with Ukraine, which they did. Russia should have entreated with the Americans to intercede as a referee, which they(Russia) did. They should have entreated with the European powers to do the same, which they did. And when all of these steps were taken and failed to gain any change from Kiev, then the Russians should have taken the Ukrainian threat on their border seriously, because the threat was serious, and they did this as well.
If there was any moral equivalence between the actions of NATO and the actions of Russia in Ukraine, Russia would have not made any such efforts to avoid or end the conflict. In fact, what was missing in Ukraine was some counterbalance to the NATO domination of the country, that is until Russia provided such a balance this past February.
Again, I am very curious to hear how you reconcile any similarity between Ukraine’s war against Dombas as being related in any way to Israel’s non-war against the PLO. There is no similarities between these ‘struggles’ as you suggest, and am frankly shocked that you suggest that there might be one. I do, however, look forward to your effort to prove me wrong here.
@Michael S.
And what the US and NATO did to Serbia in 1999 is not a dangerous precedent?
And scores of countries applying thousands of sanctions to a country who is fighting for its right not to be destroyed by the “Western civilization” is not a dangerous precedent?
These are the same countries who loved Hitler’s Germany and worked for it during WWII who are now replaying the war hoping to succeed in destroying Russia this time and taking its resources.
@Michael..
You are the one who is wrong. I just posted a video as evidence that Ukraine has been committing war crimes since 2014. Ukraine was oppressing the Russian areas since 2014 precipitating the desire fore separation. Even if Ukraine is fighting separatists, they have no right to commit war crimes.
The 2014 war was precipitated by a CIA orchestrated coup which placed a pro-Russian government with a pro-US government.
The US is the aggressor not Russia. It is just reacting.
Hello, Peloni. Have you read what you just said?
What kind of gaslighting are you working on here? Fighting against “separatists” in your own country is not a “war of conquest”. Israel and the PLO are in a similar struggle. In another post, Ketzel rightly pointed out that what Russia is doing is a dangerous precedent. The Ukraine conflict is, and has always been, an INTERNAL affair, into which both Russia and NATO have entangled themselves.
@Michael
I disagree.
In early 2022, Ukraine is in the 8th year of a war of conquest against the Dombas separatists. They have massed easily well over 100K NATO armed, NATO trained and battle hardened army which included significant numbers of Nazi oriented forces in the forward area near the Russian border. This was not something that originated overnight, it was also not something that Russia did not address as having a significant concern for the strategic defense of their nation. Under the principle of anticipatory self defense, as was employed to excuse the murderous outrage that took place in Serbia by NATO, Russia had a right to satisfy her own self defense, which does not require that she be faced with imminent threat of defeat. In fact, Russia saw the ongoing war in Ukraine as a threat to her security and made this fact clearly known, for 8yrs. There were internationally accepted accords (Minsk 1 and 2) which were designed to eliminate this threat, but these were never pursued, save for Zelensky’s failed attempt implement them at Zolote in 2019 when he was faced with threats of insurrection by the very Nazi elements whose presence on Russia’s border was listed among the issues raised by Russia leading upto the Russian invasion.
Ukraine was not neutral. In what way can a nation with a NATO armed, NATO funded, and NATO trained army be considered ‘neutral’, particularly in light of the NATO supported coup which displaced the legitimately elected govt, ignited the war in the Dombas, and placed Nazi troops along the border of Russia. It is true that Ukraine had not been accepted into NATO, but they were then, as they are now, clearly a NATO proxy, and as a NATO proxy they made significant threats towards Russia throughout the entire year prior to the current war while refusing to negotiate with Russia to avoid the obvious war which they seemed quite intent upon provoking. Additionally, following the outbreak of war, NATO has held ‘neutral’ Ukraine’s hand from day one as they have simultaneously pursued an economic and military proxy war against Russia, both of which have been proven to be quite impotent at defeating Russia.
In addition to all of this, the example of the Serbian “threat” which threatened NATO enough to bring them to invest the Kosovars as their allies and unilateral act to up-end the ongoing civil war there, provides ample precedent for Russia’s actions in Ukraine. The relevance of this comparison is made even more compelling for Russia than it was for NATO, given the fact that the war in Ukraine was conveniently situated along Russia’s border and Serbia’s civil war was situated more than one nation apart from the nearest NATO member state.
Russia has made several efforts to negotiate with Ukraine and have found the Ukrainians to be somewhere between non-responsive and completely untrustworthy. The investment of the territories into Russia was preventable, but not in the absence of a good faith negotiating partner, which was quite absent in Ukraine.
As to the threat of the use of nuclear response, Russia is a member of the nuclear club. All members of this club will utilize such weapons as are necessary to protect their sovereignty. As I said, the fact that Russia is investing the Dombas territories into their nation was a preventable event, but that page has now been turned for good. Any attempt to un-turn that page will be seen as an assault upon the Russian state and will be met with the same response as if it were lodged against St. Petersberg.
Since the beginning of the war, the US has made a particular effort to avoid any direct attacks from being made against Russia, at least openly, and I believe that they will continue to do so after the referendum, for the same reason that Russia failed to act to support Serbia in 1999 – they simply do not have any good choice alternatives available to them. And as the US knew this to be the case with Russia in 1999, Russia knows this to be the case with the US today.
Putin has unilaterally brought the whole world to the brink of WWIII. There is NO justification for this; and Clayton Morris is acting as a Russian shill
Let’s look at the FACTS:
1. Early 2022: Ukraine is universally recognized as independent and NO threat to vastly more powerful Russia..
2. March 2022 Russia has invaded neutral Ukraine and NATO has begun assisting the Kiev government. At this point, it is a proxy war. Russia’s rationale is that NATO might accept Ukraine as part of NATO (in effect, annexing it).
3. Now. Russia is about to annex a large portion of internationally recognized Ukraine. Russia has DONE what it accused NATO as having WANTED to do. The difference is enormous.