Proof of a Scandal: U.S. Policy is Making Syria into an Anti-Western, Antisemitic Islamist State

By Barry Rubin

In his article, “The Revolt of Islam in Syria,” Jerusalem Post, December 12, 2012, Jonathan Spyer, senior fellow at the GLORIA Center, points out compelling information about the new Western-backed leadership in Syria.

The bottom line: If this is Syria’s new government then Syria now has an Islamist regime. This is happening with the knowledge and collaboration of the Obama Administration and a number of European governments. It is a catastrophe and one that’s taking place due to the deliberate decisions of President Barack Obama and other Western leaders. Even if one rationalizes the Islamist takeover in Egypt as due to internal events, this one is U.S.-made.

Spyer points out, U.S. and European policy can be summarized as follows:

    “To align with and strengthen Muslim Brotherhood-associated elements, while painting Salafi forces as the sole real Islamist danger.   At the same time, secular forces are ignored or brushed aside.”

The new regime, recognized by the United States and most European countries, as the legitimate leadership of the Syrian people, is the Syrian National Coalition, which has also established a military council.

Spyer’s detailed evidence for these arguments–much of which comes from raw wire service reports, praise is due to Reuters in this case–is undeniable. And if we know about these things there’s no doubt that the highest level of the U.S. government does so as well.

Why is this happening? Because Obama and others believe that they can moderate the Muslim Brotherhood and it will tame the Salafists, despite massive evidence to the contrary. This is the biggest foreign policy blunder of the last century and the cost for it will be high. It should be stressed that such a strategy is totally unnecessary and the alternatives have been ignored, the real moderates are being betrayed.

Here is some of the proof for these assertions:

    “To align with and strengthen Muslim Brotherhood-associated elements, while painting Salafi forces as the sole real Islamist danger.   At the same time, secular forces are ignored or brushed aside.”

The new regime, recognized by the United States and most European countries, as the legitimate leadership of the Syrian people, is the Syrian National Coalition, which has also established a military council.

Spyer’s detailed evidence for these arguments–much of which comes from raw wire service reports, praise is due to Reuters in this case–is undeniable:

    “The founder of the Free Syrian Army, former Syrian Air Force Colonel Riad Asaad, is notably absent [from the leadership].  General Mustafa al-Sheikh, the first of his rank to defect to the rebels, is also not there. Sheikh is known for his fierce opposition to the Muslim Brotherhood.  Hussein Haj Ali, the highest ranking officer to defect so far, was similarly absent.” These men are all anti-Islamists.

    “A Reuters report on the new joint military council calculated that the Muslim Brotherhood and their allies account for about two-thirds of the 263 men who met in Antalya and formed the new body.  Salafi commanders are also there.”  In other words, the Islamists will get the overwhelming share of weapons provided under U.S. sponsorship, Turkish oversight, and Qatari and Saudi financing. And the United States has not objected to the arming of Salafist super-extremists as long as they aren’t affiliated to al-Qaida.

    -“The new council is headed by Brigadier Selim Idriss, who is described as a non-ideological military man.  But his deputies, Abdel-basset Tawil of Idleb and Abdel-Qader Saleh of Aleppo governate are associated with the Salafi trend.” In other words, there’s a non-Islamist front man for what will be an Islamist-controlled army.

    “The domination by the Muslim Brotherhood of the new military council mirrors the movement’s leading position in the new civilian leadership body – the Syrian National Coalition.  The leader of this coalition is Ahmed Mouaz al-Khatib, former Imam of the Umayyad Mosque in Damascus.

    “Khatib is closely associated with the Damascus Branch of the Muslim Brotherhood.   The leader of the new coalition has a long history of antisemitic, anti-Western and anti-Shia remarks. (He praised Saddam Hussein, for example, for “terrifying the Jews” and wrote an article asking if Facebook was an “American-Israeli intelligence website.”) He is also an admirer of the Qatar-based Muslim Brotherhood preacher Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi.

    “Within the body headed by Khatib, the Muslim Brotherhood dominated Syrian National Council controls around 27 of the 65 seats on the executive body of the new coalition.  There are also Islamists and fellow travelers among the non-SNC delegates. The Brotherhood is by far the best organized single body within the coalition.  One secular delegate at the first full meeting of the coalition accused the MB of `pushing more of its hawks into the coalition, although it already has half of the seats.’”

Let me add two other points:

    ‘he U.S. government backed the previous opposition “leadership,” the Syrian National Council, which was formed as a result of American initiative operating through Islamist Turkey. The fact that this council had a Muslim Brotherhood majority in the leadership did not deter the Obama Administration from proclaiming it to be the address for support. Only when the council had clearly failed–and despite the fact that months earlier several moderates had resigned complaining about Brotherhood domination–did the U.S. government change strategy to organizing a new, also Muslim Brotherhood dominated group.

    American intelligence agents in southern Turkey supervise the handover of weapons to the rebels. They make no attempt to stop arms from going to the Muslim Brotherhood and the Salafists while they make no attempt to funnel the guns to moderates. The only restriction is that they not go to al-Qaida affiliated Salafists. One day those guns will be used to commit unspeakable atrocities against Christians and other minority groups just as they will be used to install an Islamist regime and kill or intimidate its opponents.

How has the United States handled this threat? Well, it declared one Salafi group off-limits because it is linked to al-Qaida. That’s it.

As Spyer points out, there has been and still is an alternative: for the West to back non-Islamist leaders including liberals, Arab nationalists, and Kurdish nationalist forces. Such a strategy was not pursued either in Egypt or in Tunisia.

So when Syria gets an anti-Western, antisemitic, and anti-democratic (aside from holding elections) regime don’t be surprised. You can read it in the surprised and grudging admissions of the Western mass media a year or two after this regime takes power or you can know about it right now.

This outcome might have been inevitable any way but I don’t think that’s true. A vigorous policy of supplying non- and anti-Islamist forces while doing nothing to help the Brotherhood and Salafist militias plus the formation of a non-Islamist dominated political grouping that would receive Western aid could have produced a very different result.

But Western, and especially Obama Administration, policy is now putting into power yet another anti-Western regime that will oppress its own people and put a high priority on trying to wipe out Israel.

Barry Rubin is director of the Global Research in International Affairs (GLORIA) Center and editor of the Middle East Review of International Affairs (MERIA) Journal. His latest book, Israel: An Introduction, has just been published by Yale University Press. Other recent books include The Israel-Arab Reader (seventh edition), The Long War for Freedom: The Arab Struggle for Democracy in the Middle East (Wiley), and The Truth About Syria (Palgrave-Macmillan). The website of the GLORIA Center  and of his blog, Rubin Reports. His original articles are published at PJMedia.

December 18, 2012 | 54 Comments »

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  1. shachalnur Said:

    It’s my mistake, thinking that knowledgeable readers on this site are aware of the sources I bring into the discussion.

    I’m a wandering Jew,speak 7 languages ,and forget that most people don’t speak too many

    There is only one language here to use and you need to learn to use it effectively. Blaming others because you can not communicate is the essence of neurosis.

    I ask you to say clearly what you support, what you want and you write four times as much disorganized ramblings and I have to try to dig it out of that confused mess. You need to learn to write ONE simple sentence.

    Never mind the fantasy ‘State’, you din’t say except sideways what you want here in this real world.

    Here’s your mission statement what from all that verbiage I deduce – You want the state of Israel as it is destroyed (same as Dean Anderson) and you have hundreds of complaints against Jews of all stripes for some mysterious reasons.

    That’s all you are about – end of story -simple really..
    ..
    I suspect that you are presenting the real ‘you’, and that your subterfuge and obfuscation is not deliberate. You simply are not integrated as a personality. Four times you tried and couldn’t write a topic sentence about your motivations or intent!

    ..
    Now tell us clearly…What did they arrest you for – in plain words!
    Did you advocate the military destruction of Israel or any other Western country?

    That’s the only thing I can think of that would flag the attention of the authorities.

    I have the impression that after inspection, they decided you were a harmless confused person and let you go.

    I can just see some authorities questioning you for a couple of hours and ending up banging ther heads agaisnt the wall – they probably released you out of self defence for their sanity.

    Ok, you are entitled to your whatever’. Excuse me out, I don’t want any more.

    It was interesting to know about Dean Anderson but as regards international politics I saw the most significant thing he had to say was:

    “Israel has no right to exist. Viva Palestine!”
    ..
    And with that I say adieu – I hope you find your way out of the darkness…

  2. shachalnur Said:

    1.The claim that Israeli death squads did Sandy Hook or Breivik is ,untill proven,ridiculous.

    Yet this rag printed the story as new more than once. This rag in which you read every comment with adoration for the “battlefield of ideas” LOL!. This rag which you recommend for obtaining “information” The question begs as to why you rate such a rag so highly. The answer is simple. This rag, whose main thrust is “the jews did it”, prints what is attractive to you and supports your view of the world and of Jews. That you recomend this rag to Jews on a jewish site as a credible source for obtaining information is as ridiculous as the article on Israeli death squads killing the sandy hook children(although you are probably hoping for that “proof”).
    shachalnur Said:

    2. Dean Henderson is just one of many(some are Jews) investigating more than 200 years of European Banker history.

    shachalnur Said:

    I picked him,because for people that have no clue(“They’re aliens from Mars”),this is the fastest way to get a feel for the basics.

    shachalnur Said:

    If there’s details you don’t agree with,that’s normal in any historical study.

    Are you thick? I read articles of his, I quoted an article to you, the article asserted in the headline, the first paragraph and the last paragraph that THE SAUDIS ARE THE MOSSADS PAYMASTERS. Within this article of many paragraphs there was not one example offered in support of this assertion(I am not even talking about evidence) Dont chat rubbish! This is not a detail this is a symptom. There is no reason to keep reading your recommendations when every one that I went to was pure rubbish. Assertions made with no evidence given, referring to more incredulous sources. Your warburg statement is another BS: indicative of slovenly or disingenuous scholarship. It was a stupid statement to choose at it so obviously proved nothing and demonstrated your jewish conspiracy theory psychosis. I could not even call it “grasping for straws” as it was such an incredibly pathetic example. And yet you still do not notice that fact, you who are not ignorant and know how the world operates.
    what is pathetic is, like the emperor, you cannot see your own transparency. Here are some questions: For what reason does a self professed non religious jew choose a jewish source which occupies the fringes of judaism. Why don’t you go to a mainstream jewsih source. Further, what does it have to do with anything what they say about zionism. These have no meaning other than they fit into your “vision” and renforce the conclusion that “the jews did it”. You think quoting jews means somenting? Then quote the mainstream rather than the fringe. shachalnur Said:

    3.My vision in short; Rothschild ,Warburg,Shiff and co. hyjacked Judaism in 1897,with a political program called “Zionism”,and was recognized as such by most European Jews.

    this is why I wanted you to write your vision which turned out as I suspected. Everything you wrote in your “vision” leads to the idea that “the Jews did it” and “zionism is evil”. HMM? Has a flavor of the saudi globally financed “palestinian” narrative with a solid foundation on the “jewish banking conspiracy”. The worlds problems began with zionism and the 2000 years of christian, pagan,serial, chronic bloodlust and swindling dont exist. This is how I know you are not a Jew. Your perspective ignores any jewish interests and reflect those of the pagans. I guess you have gathered that I do not believe you are jewish or your grandmother storyshachalnur Said:

    She told me of Jewish bankers in Amsterdam collaborating with the Nazi’s,Jewish judges,Rabbi’s,academics,”Joodsche Raad”(Judenrat),zionist leadership in Britain and other horrors.

    Sounds like a generic infomercial. Where did she get this information, was everyone giving her this in news releases or did she get it from her banker meetings; maybe it was “books” like those you recommend?
    You and I cannot know the facts except from books and people. You choose sources which reflect your ideas and agenda and exist on the fringe. These are not sources but rather echos of your pathos. Stop the BS that your sources are anything more than those engaged in incitement against the Jews.
    shachalnur Said:

    The Zionist leadership whipped up hate against Jews,

    This is what you and your friends are engaged in.
    shachalnur Said:

    4. Solution?

    Interesting that your solution has nothing for the Jews and is a solution for everyone else: and this from a “jew”. It reads like a Pal “solution”.
    How convenient that this “wandering jew” stumbled upon this fountain of truth. HMMM? what could possibly attract a “jew” to such pagan concepts of jewish conspiracies? It is my belief that you are a total fraud! You are like a hog trying to pretend to be a cow among a herd of cows, only the hog does not notice.

    You see, when you state your vision and your solution everything becomes clear.

  3. @ Bernard Ross,Max

    Thank you for your replies.
    It’s my mistake, thinking that knowledgeble readers on this site are aware of the sources I bring into the discussion.
    Yeshayahu Leibowitz,Anton Chaitkin,Simon Shama,Rabbi Gedalya Lieberman,Rabbi Dov Weissmandl,Grand Rebbe Yoel Taitelbaum are examples of persons that are well known among the Ultra Orthodox and anti Zionist communities in Israel and abroad.
    I feel there’s a part of history Jews are unfamiliar with,mainly 1897-1949.
    I’m a Dutch Jew(1963),lived in Israel for 8 years.
    My grandparents and parents(they were children than) survived the Holocaust.
    Besides my grandmother ,nobody ever talked about ww2.
    My grandmother was “outed” as a resistance member by someone in the street in 1975 in Amsterdam.
    She refused a resistance pension later,saying it was “polluted” money,like the German Wiedergutmachung.
    The Holocaust in Holland was ugly,90% of Jews disappeared.
    My grandmother “educated” me.
    She told me of Jewish bankers in Amsterdam collaborating with the Nazi’s,Jewish judges,Rabbi’s,academics,”Joodsche Raad”(Judenrat),zionist leadership in Britain and other horrors.
    Another source is German -Dutch Concentrationcamp survivor Dr. Hajo Meyer,book “The end of Judaism” about Zionism and the Holocaust.
    There’s hundreds more Holocaust survivors telling another story than the “official” one.
    The large mayority of Jews before ww2 were anti zionist.

    To your questions;
    1.The claim that Israeli death squads did Sandy Hook or Breivik is ,untill proven,ridiculous.
    After Bulgaria(june 2012) another writer,Stephen Lendman(Jewish),immidiately claimed Mossad was behind that one.
    Didn’t get too much attention.
    Maybe you are aware of the USS Liberty attack in 1968.
    From than on every attack is being seen as a possible Israeli operation,especially by US and British war veterans.
    Also the Lavon affair,and 9/11 didn’t help(Building 7,five dancing Israeli’s arrested on 9/11(youtube) etc)
    When Netanyahu and Barak claimed Hezbollah and Iran were behind Bulgaria,within 5 minutes of the attack without a shred of evidence,is seen as just as ridiculous by the rest of the world.
    Israel urged the EU to place Hezbollah on the terror list after that,Europe said it’ll wait for the proof from Bulgaria before deciding.
    This piece on Vets today was about a former Republican candidate claiming something.
    If you read the piece well,Duff never claimed he’s right.
    It’s called “provocation” something used by everyone in times of war.
    Presstv posted it first.
    Manu commentators(including various Jews) reacted angrily on the piece.
    Like I said ,no censure.

    2. Dean Henderson is just one of many(some are Jews) investigating more than 200 years of European Banker history.
    I picked him,because for people that have no clue(“They’re aliens from Mars”),this is the fastest way to get a feel for the basics.
    The rest is thick books.
    If there’s details you don’t agree with,that’s normal in any historical study.(don’t believe him,check his sources,available)
    Can you explain me what happened in 1956 Suez war,Israel “liberating” the Suez canal,for whom?
    The bombing of the King David Hotel?
    Rockefeller,Rothschilds right hand in US,setting up the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Eugenics for Hitler,and supplying him with IBM computers,lot’s of money and scientists?(Please read Anton Chaitkin)
    The house of Saud will fall within a day without US,Rothschild support.
    In my eyes the Mossad is mainly Rothschild controlled(headquarters in Canada,80% of operatives are non-jews,motto”by way of deception ,thou shall do war”)
    Israel doesn’t trust the Mossad anymore,therefore Shabak is doing most of Israel’s (internet)spying now.
    The recently declassified CIA docs on Pollard(coincidence?) ,show a glimps of Israel’s interests not always running paralel with the Mossad’s.
    Rothschild bankrolling Europe in 1815 and creating the private Federal Reserve in 1913 is mainstream history,although mainly jews have no idea.
    3 years after signing the Fed into law ,Woodrow Wilson Us President said “I’m a most unhappy man ,I have unwittingly ruined my country……We have come to be one of the worst ruled,one of the most completely controlled and dominated governments in the civilized world….”(read the observations of congressman Charles A Lindbrgh in 1913,and hundreds off documents more )
    So ,Saudi’s financing Mossad?
    Not impossible,but not proven ,in my eyes.

    3.My vision in short;
    Rothschild ,Warburg,Shiff and co. hyjacked Judaism in 1897,with a political program called “Zionism”,and was recognized as such by most European Jews.
    In 1911,when Otto Warburg (Jewish banker) became President of the World Zionist Congress,things accelerated.
    1917-Balfour Declaration,a letter written by the British Foreign Minister promissing Lord Rothschild land that is under Ottoman Control,and inhabited by mostly non-jews(Palestinians)
    The Zionist leadership whipped up hate against Jews,coolaborated and did bussines with the Nazi regime.
    Sounds hoorible ,right,but read jewish sources I provided ,and you’ll see it’s real,however shocking.
    The bankers in Europe fully supported Hitler.
    Their aim was to create a United Europe,the United Nations(the league of nations failed before ww2) and the state of Israel as a means to control the Middle East.
    European bankers had no problem sacrificing millions of Jews in ww2 to obtain these objectives.
    Now they’re gonna do it again.
    The aim is creating a huge conflict(Leon Strauss-Chaos Theory)
    Implementing One World Government,enslaving and slowkilling the world population through Eugenics(have a look at the text on the Georgia Guiding Stones).

    4. Solution?
    One Country,three autonomous states,no internal borders,Israel(1949 borders),Palestine and Jordan,under Israeli nuclear umbrella(Jordan’s King will be very happy).
    Right of return for the Palestinians kicked of their lands in the last 64 years.
    Land is available ,Simon Shama(British jewish historian) shows that 80% of land in Israel is owned by Marsians called Rothschild.
    Jerusalem as the capital of both Israel and Palestine.
    If anybody wants to live outside their state,they should buy the land and not occupy it through ethnic cleansing.
    Israel should point their nuclear arsenal at the mansions,castles ,islands and bunkers of the European bankers,and explain the world why.
    Iceland did,Russia did,Argentina did,Venezuela did,Lybia tried(Kick out the bankers and bringing them to court,that is)
    Jews should face the ugliest part of Judaisms history(1897-1949)and free themselves from slavery,paranoia and behaviour unacceptable to almost everybody on this planet.
    True Torah Jews say; “Zionism has nothing to do with Judaism,Jews will rule in all of Israel ,AFTER the Meshiah comes,not before,so says the Torah,the Rambam and the Sages.
    Politcal Zionism will lead to a tragedy for Jews not seen since the destuction of the 2nd Temple”.
    And they’ve been saying this since long before ww2.
    By the way, I’m not religious,but it doesn’t stop me from learning their arguments.
    I’m not anti -Israel,but it doesn’t stop me from learning anti -israel arguments.

    Finally;
    This line of thought earns me the labels of “advanced Hasbarist””subtle disinformation artist””Kowtowing the Zionist-Talmudic Maffia agenda”,on anti Israel sites.
    And here I’m Hitler and a Nazi.
    Could it be that the opinions of Zionist Jews and Anti-jewish activists are so exteme that someone having an alternative view is being called traitor by both sides automatically.
    And the rest of the world can’t find itself in any of these extremes,eventhough they are tilting towards “Anti -Israel” ,or worse”anti Jewish)
    The bankers are setting us up again.
    The “Jewish ” bankers are only Jewish in name.
    Watch Phillipine de Rothschild,owner of Chateau de Rothschild wineries in France,showing off her satanic jewelry on every occasion she can.
    This stuff doesn’t show up in MSM,since Rothschild bought up the British ,German and French news agencies in 1904.
    Only on internet,Fellowship of minds.wordpress.com/The Satanic Rothschild.
    Yes,Cristians,so what,they show the pictures that MSM will never show,does that mean it doesn’t exist????
    Rothschilds serve something,and it’s not Hashem.
    Zionist, mainly non-religious/communist ashkenazi Jews have bought into this story,before the Holocaust ,with known results.
    If we do it again,the freight train coming at us,will leave no one standing.
    The biggest Rabbi’s,historians and acadamics warned for this since 1897.

    Keyser Soze said in “The usual Suspects”; ” the greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist”

    Rothschilds are no aliens from Mars.
    Neither is the Global Control Grid they’ve put in place.

    And me,I never touched a computer in my life until 1,5 years ago.
    Did the research,went to Israel to give it to people who needed to know;
    “Rothschild is gonna sacrifice another few million jews,and here’s the proof”
    It landed me in jail for 52 days,complete psy-op,they wanted to know everybit of my findings.
    Jail,for having ideas like that?

    That’s how ridiculous my ideas are,I must be delusional.
    But I have to speak out,6 million jews ,my family amongst them,slaughtered by the greatest criminals the world has ever seen.
    Many survivors spoke out,only to be called “Sabonim”(soaps) when they got to Israel.
    Because of their memory,I don’t mind you calling me Nazi,Hitler or whatever.
    “Eppur si muove”.

    I apologize for me using different languages in writing, links and youtube.
    I’m a wandering Jew,speak 7 languages ,and forget that most people don’t speak too many.

  4. shachalnur Said:

    You attack the Gordon Duff’s ,Dean Henderson’s,which I merely point out as sources of information ,from “out there”.

    NOt true. you gave these in your first post. I went to these sites, and Golden report, and authors and found all of them to be suspect as a basis for facts. You said you read every letter on veterans today and similar sites and it is a good source of info. I gave you detailed reasons as to why even linking to specific articles. Instead of answering to my reasons you simply give more names to go to. I have already gone to some of them and am stil unimpressed. You advised to watch lieberwitz”juif extraordinaire”. I searched but was unable to find a single link subtitled in english(strange to recommend to an english site) I went further and read about leibowitz as a Philosopher, again unimpressed and fail to see what your reason was to cite him. Same with the Lieberman and Jewish sources who say that the torah forbids aliyah until the messiah comes which justifies sects like naturei karta to aid and abet the killers of jews. What is your point in citing these sources? Is your point to prove that there are jewish kapo marionettes infected with the stockholm syndrome of fear of their christian pagan masters and will do anything to appease the pagans? We all know this already, it proves nothing. The real problem is it is impossible to know, from your writings, what your point is: the only thing that ties your sources together is their anti semitism, christian pagan conspiracies and similarity to other sites where the conclusion is always “The Jews did it”. You have as yet failed to answer to my original reply therefore I again submit the following queestions in a simplistic manner of capital letters and bold type so as to avoid your apparent avoidance of them:

    1-DO YOU BELIEVE THAT ISRAELI DEATH SQUADS MURDERED THE CHILDREN OF SANDY HOOK AND NORWAY?
    2-CITE YOUR EVIDENCE FOR THE HENDERSON ASSERTION THAT SAUDIS ARE THE “PAYROLL MASTERS” OF MOSSAD
    ….
    shachalnur Said:

    my vision seems to be a problem for both camps,either Hasbara or “spreading bloodlibels”

    3-WHAT IS YOUR VISION?

    shachalnur Said:

    If what I say is such rubbish,why do you take so much time and effort to counter me?

    I want to expose you to the other posters for the charlatan that you are.

    shachalnur Said:

    Please,a discussion on issues,let’s stick to jewish sources,if you feel more comfi with that.

    Lets stick to the first sources you already gave to which I replied and you avoided the answers. As you say a discussion of the issues which must begin with a discussion of your sources and the authors you recomended. Reply to capitalized questions above
    shachalnur Said:

    Paul Warburg(Yep,the Banker) testimony for the senate,stating that “We shall have World Government,whether we like it or not.The only question is whether World Government will be achieved by conquest or consent.”

    What is proved by this statement from the “zionist(jewish?) banker”. 99% of people who have watched star trek for 40 years will state exactly the same: that there will be a one world govt(when, who knows, but likely by the time of interplanetary travel)
    shachalnur Said:

    Can give you a few hundred more names if you want

    obviously your tactic of obfuscation. Finish the first names you gave and answer the questions you avoid.
    shachalnur Said:

    ..,that might lead to a solution for the predicament Judaism is in.

    4-WHAT IS YOUR SOLUTION?
    shachalnur Said:

    “First they ignore you,than they ridicule you ,than they attack you etc.”..Could it be you are trying to prevent readers to be exposed to ideas and lines of thought

    See a shrink: this mechanism is caled “projection”

    If you can answer the 4 capitalized questions, above clearly and without evasion, we will all know the value of whatever it is you are trying to communicate

  5. @ shachalnur:

    That’s almost total gibberish. Very convoluted. It could be deliberate obfuscation but I have a sense that you don’t have control of yourself ie like a disturbed personality.

    You didn’t make one clear statement of who your think is against who – not what you are for or what you are against.
    You mentioned Zionism and anti-Zionism over and over again without saying if you were for or against the existence of Israel. I think you must have very subterranean agendas.

    Only in your very last post finally almost seems to take a stand – you are against the existence of Israel.

    Zionism, Jews, religion – it all has no value per pound – this is not the study of money flow – Those things may be affected as end products they aren’t the motivations of profit.

    Dean Anderson is Anti-Israel, he wants to see it destroyed, That’s all that is – no complications there. That’s not a study of elite influence or sociology, that’s a open agenda that belies objectivity.

    As so you are decrying “Israel will be destroyed’ but actually it’s what you want – that’s pretty twisted.

    I’m sorry nothing you are saying has any credibility – it’s like Smeagel with his ring – twisted and slavering with hatred and confusion.

    The Dean Anderson site still might be good for doing some research on domestic economics just to get the raw data. Noam Chomsky was the same- he was an excellent sociologist and his sociology is worthwhile but both of them are the same when it comes to politics – twisted, vengeful and dishonest. Other people do the same on the other ‘side’ when they have ethnic hatred of muslims.

    When people have agendas of hate, they will try to corrupt any legitimate intellectual process to support that agenda.

    —-

    If you do feel inspired to post again – try to make one single statement clearly owning your intent – what you hope will happen, what you want to happen, who you support, who you don’t support.

    The factoids, the arguments this and that – they are not meaningful – make your intent known!

  6. @Bernard Ross,
    Thank you for your detailed reaction on my writing.
    It’ll go too far to answer to every detail,I understand your anger.
    But you missed the point.
    You attack the Gordon Duff’s ,Dean Henderson’s,which I merely point out as sources of information ,from “out there”.
    But not a word about; Simon Shama,Anton Chaitkin,Rabbi Gedalya Lieberman,Prof.Yeshayahu Leibowitz,Slomo Sand,Roi Tov,Albert Einstein,Hannah Arendt and my grandmother.
    Masada2000.com is a legitimate website run by Kahane adepts ,publishing lists of jews that should be (s)hit.
    And these are just the names I mentioned.
    If you’re upset about Dean Henderson,It might be you have a problem with his ideas.
    Why don’t you try Henry Makov ,who goes much further than Henderson,and he’s a jew.
    Then you can check a 1950 Paul Warburg(Yep,the Banker) testimony for the senate,stating that “We shall have World Government,whether we like it or not.The only question is whether World Government will be achieved by conquest or consent.”
    Can give you a fewhundred more names if you want ,of Jews that seem to have no problems with people that are very upset what Zionism is doing to the world AND Judaism.
    Your tirade is more a diversion tactic,since you don’t adress any of the Jewish sources I mention.
    All the other stuff you accuse me off(blood libels etc.),well ,you know.
    If what I say is such rubbish,why do you take so much time and effort to counter me?
    “First they ignore you,than they ridicule you ,than they attack you etc.”
    Could it be you are trying to prevent readers to be exposed to ideas and lines of thought ,that might lead to a solution for the predicament Judaism is in.
    You’re tactics are a bit like the “thought-police” I encounter on every site,Pro or Con Israel.
    my vision seems to be a problem for both camps,either Hasbara or “spreading bloodlibels”.
    Some of your attacks on me are exagerated,It looks like I hit a nerve,where I wanted a discussion.
    Please,a discussion on issues,let’s stick to jewish sources,if you feel more comfi with that.
    Can you explain where the 20 million jews went?
    I know hundreds of them,they “took distance in disgust”.

    @ Bernard Ross:

  7. shachalnur Said:

    I read every letter from sites like Veterans Today…

    this firms up that my opinion of you was right. I read Veterans today, gordon duffy,and Dean henderson as you recommended all qualify as having an anti semitic agenda masked in code words like zionist, zionist bankers, referring to the jewish names of bankers, the rothschild jewish banker conspiracy. The latest one being that Israel is mixed into the US/saudi/jihadi alliance. Just like the mixing the jews into the christian pagan conspiracy mythologies knights templars,illuminatis, sangreals, masons, etc and the only thing that the Jews have to do with this christian psychopathology is that he usually becomes the victims of their blood libels as you are now attempting along with your friends.
    shachalnur Said:

    So in short,please criticize me on the content and substance.

    that is exactly what I did: you recommended veterans today and I read it an found it to be an anti semitic rag, especially the editor gordon duffy. I read articles by your recommended author Dean Henderson and noticed a similar agenda; one example of which was about the saudis funding the mossad and although he wrote a long history with some actual facts of saudi funding of many things there was not one example or mention during the entire article of an incident of saudi funding mossad. Yet he titled the article, had the accusation in his opening and closing paragraphs. He writes in a style where unsupported allegations are expected to be taken as fact. His technique is typical of those proliferating disinformation to achieve an agenda. They start with their conclusions and then work out the facts. At the end of their stories their conclusions usually lead to or allow the reader to discover that “THE JEWS DID IT”
    I notice that you did not reply to the glaring example of your nazi site publishing and proliferating the blood libel that Israeli death squads murdered the sandy hook children. Perhaps this is because you are part of this cabal of blood libelers. You are a party to this blood libel and I accuse you of seeking to spread blood libels against the Jews for the specific purpose of incitement. Why didn’t Mike Harris accuse the Iranians of his act of terror why did he pick the Jews? Who really funds gordon duffy and mike harris?. Many of the articles on your rags lead to the same ugly taste in the mouth. shachalnur Said:

    The Elite is repeating the same tactics as before the Holocaust. Whip up hate against Jews,deflecting the attention away from the bankers

    This is what you and your ilk do. One of your peoples tactics is to proclaim that the jews are not the real jews it is the pals who are. You even use kapo, stockholm sydrome , useful idiot jews to facilitate your covert antisemitism.
    shachalnur Said:

    If you are afraid to confront,and discuss with your supposed enemies,you won’t know what’s going on “outthere”,and won’t see the freight train coming at you.

    I see the freight train and you are one of the drivers. It is for the others to see and recognizing the driver.
    shachalnur Said:

    It’s where the real war of ideas is being fought,with the extremes and everything in between,are you afraid of that?

    my name is on my post, is yours? This war of ideas is a bunch of wannabe jew killers in waiting trying to put the blame on the jews. If there were mossad death squads it would be easy to put these blood libelers out of their misery rather than shooting children as you and your friends are trying to proliferate.
    shachalnur Said:

    There’s real good Zionist fanatics like the Kahane,settlers

    the fanatics are your christian pagan conspiracy theorists of knight templars, sangreal, illuminati, etc. Jews are not into this shit.

    shachalnur Said:

    If you are afraid to confront,and discuss with your supposed enemies,

    Does one discuss with hitler? It is better to eliminate those who seek your demise rather than discuss. Let’s hope those Israeli death squads you believe in are out there doing that job.

  8. @ max
    Confusing?
    This is actually the jargon on the battle field of ideas.
    Is it the “Israel” lobby,the “Jewish” lobby,the “zionist ” lobby?
    OK. some order.
    Again on Veterans today there’s a man called Alan Hart ,pro “Jewish”,who is constantly hammering on the right terms.
    He’s been an ITN and bbc journalist in the middle east with very close contacts all the way back to ben Gurion,Golda Me’ir,Dayan etc.
    The term “anti -semite ” is false and confusing.
    Semites are originally the people that lived in the area that we cal I”Israel-Palestine” now.
    That’s mainly Spharadi jews anad Palestinians.
    There’s much doubt how “semetic” Ashkenazi Jews are.
    Slomo Sand,Tel-Aviv professor wrote a book called;”the invention of the Jewish People”.2009
    Are Ashkenazi Jews mainly converted Khazar’s, not related to semites?
    Most so called “anti semites” are not “anti-semites”,nor “anti Jewish”,but Anti-Zionist.
    Just like there’s Zionist Jews,anti-Zionist Jews,and Jews “that took distance in disgust”.
    The Jewish population world wide is stagnant since the end of ww2.
    13,5 million Jews in 1948,13,5 million Jews in 2012.
    Jews marrying outside their faith in Europe 1940 was 4%.
    Jews marrying outside their faith in Europe and US in 1990 was 52%.
    Jewish birthrates are higher than their (Cristian) surroundings.
    The world population almost multiplied by 3 since 1945.
    So where are the Jews? There’s about 20 million Jews “missing”.
    Where are the Israeli Jews? Another problem.
    About One million Israeli Jews are not living in Israel,but counted as “Israeli’s”.
    This includes Israeli’s permanently living abroad,with no plans of returning,or children of Israeli’s born abroad,even when they’ve never been in Israel.
    Then there’s about half a million Russian “Jews” in Israel,that are not Jews according to Halacha(One jewish (grand)father,).
    There’s people like “True Torah Jews against Zionism” that can explain you the real history of Zionism during the Holocaust.
    Don’t believe me,educate yourself.
    There’s real good Zionist fanatics like the Kahane,settlers “masada2000.com” that published a Jewish S.H.I.T. -list.
    Actually a “Hitlist” of Jews by Jews.(foreshadowing a conflict in Israel?)
    Max,Jews Are the worst informed,most brainwashed people in the world,if it comes to history in general or the Holocaust in particular.
    And there’s very intelligent and brave Jews trying to warn and wake up other Jews.I’m one of the stupid ones.
    Try a short youtube post,called “Un Juif Extraordinaire” about Yeshayahu Leibowitz,the biggest brain to have lived in modern Israel.
    Pay attention when he talks about Henry Kissinger,who just received the Israeli Presidential Prize out of Shimon Perez’ hands.(June 2012)
    The Elite is repeating the same tactics as before the Holocaust.
    Whip up hate against Jews,deflecting the attention away from the bankers(Like the MSM and the ADL did since 1913),and giving us der Fuhrer(Obama)and the Third Reich(the UN) as the solution.
    Israel,and Jews,are being thrown under the bus,just like European Judaism in the 40’s.
    And again there’s a part of Judaism that buys in to the story,that they’ll be exempted,as being part of the Elite.
    Don’t “x” Rabbi Gedalya Lieberman because he’s ultra orthodox,his “Zionism and the Holocaust” is not about religion,it’s about Ben Gurion,Weizman etc,BEFORE they became Israeli politicians,a part of history jews are being withheld by their own.
    Without facing the roots of Zionism and their sponsors,Judaism is in much bigger trouble than a conflict with Palestinians.

    @ Max:

  9. @ shachalnur:

    I can’t make head not tail of this. Who is against who? Who wants what?
    Jews against Whose? Whose against Jews? Jews against Jews?
    Zionist Jews against anti-zionist Jews?
    ????
    Clear summary statment SVP?

  10. @ bernard Ross
    Jews were caught before,because they could not believe that their anti-“jewish” masters were capable of such deep evil”
    Besides the ” anti -semite” part I totally agree with this frase.
    I mentioned Veterans today because there you can find many different opinions ,writers are diverse,30% of writers are jewish.
    This is a site without any censure or “thought police”.
    It’s where the real war of ideas is being fought,with the extremes and everything in between,are you afraid of that?
    Even the most ,what you call “anti semitic” ,garbage shows up there once in a while,but everybody can give his opinion ,and every reader can react.
    This is the real battlefield,and there’s people writing stuff there months or years before it gets to the main stream media.
    If you are afraid to confront,and discuss with your supposed enemies,you won’t know what’s going on “outthere”,and won’t see the freight train coming at you.
    I read every letter from sites like Veterans Today,Presstv,The Ugly Truth,Roi Tov.
    If you take some time to read ,most of the writers and commenters on these sites know more about Judaism,World religions,Middle East politics,Intelligence,and major developments than 99% of Jews.(or non jews ,for that matter)
    99% of them are not “anti -jewish”,they are “anti-Zionist”,together with an estimated 3 million anti-Zionist Jews worldwide
    Most sites where jews “discuss” world news looks like group masturbation.Je m’excuse du mot.
    And that includes “Mondoweiss”,the Zionist anti- zionist site.
    Controlled opposition and deadly for jews.
    I don’t care if jerry Golden is a blue kangoeroe from Mars,he did the research,took the pictures and told the story,the same story told by others but not as clear as he does.
    And the facts are correct.
    about the Mayans,@ Yamit82;I live among Mayans for 12 years now,and I can assure you that the idea of “the end of the world” is not a Mayan idea,it’s a vision of mostly American and European spin.
    The Mayans believe time is ciclical,21 dec 2012 is the beginning of a new cycle of 5126 years.
    Apocalypse stuff is for Mel Gibson,not Dean Henderson.

    So in short,please critisize me on the content and substance.
    What about Simon Shama,Anton Chaitkin,Rabbi Gedalya Lieberman,read that and you’ll see they say the same thing as these horrible “Anti -semites”,and than you’ll have to face the substance of the message ,and you can’t shoot down the messenger anymore.
    Can give you lists of thousands of jews ,coming out and saying the same thing.
    Try Masada2000.com(Kahane) there you can find the Jewish S.H.I.T.(Self Hating Israel Threatening Jews),8.800 jews.acadamics,writers,rabbi’s.

    Finally,About people saying horrible things about jews ,the following;
    “Goyim were born only to serve us,Without that they have no place in the world-only to serve the people of Israel.That is why Gentiles were created.
    (18 oct.2010,Jerusalem Post,quote Ovadia Josef,spiritual leader of Shas,a government party)
    How is the rest of the world supposed to think about a country,that has a man saying things like that,knowing he has been political Kingmaker in Israel for decades.

    @ Bernard Ross:

  11. yamit82 Said:

    Dean Henderson have to say about it?

    The Henderson site doesn’t seem to be associated or tainted with that other religious stuff. I actually searched his site for ‘Mayan’ – the only reference he had was to building a survivalist cabin which it seems he has the intention of living on on for many years to come and was interested in researching survivalist independent living.

    The other site he linked had a religious manifesto and nothing quite obvious about economy so I just x’d it off. I don’t see the point in looking at that stuff.

    Yeah the world ends tomorrow.
    Gee, that saves us a lot of grief. Time to party!

  12. @ shachalnur:

    Crazy? Sure,but this is what the Rothschilds left as a story in the centre of Jerusalem,a sword shaped diagram of buildings they build over 80 years,and it points at the Rock and the date is 2012.

    Secret message to all Jews

    STAY AWAY FROM 2012 celebrations

    According to Mayan Calender today is the final day of HISTORY< what does your Dean Henderson have to say about it?

  13. @ shachalnur:

    Super Viral: Israeli death squads involved in Sandy Hook bloodbath: Intelligence analyst
    http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/12/19/super-viral-israeli-death-squads-involved-in-sandy-hook-bloodbath-intelligence-analyst/

    This is a headline from the site you quote for “facts”. The story goes on to accuse Israel of the Norway massacre. Gordon Duff, of Veterans Today is a famous anti semite and Mike Harris also. I advise the readers to watch the embedded video of the mike Harris interview so that posters on Israpundit can see from where you come. The proliferation of such news is why the global anti semitism is at an all time high.

  14. shachalnur Said:

    you can find these pieces on Veterans today.com

    I went to this site and it appears to be a site dedicated to Jewish conspiracies. Here is a recent link from that same anti semitic site about sandy hook which basically accuses the Jews of the habit of killing children, killing them at sandy hook and in norway. You might be chagrined to find out that they did not accuse the jews of killing christian children for blood to bake into mattzoh.
    http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/12/19/super-viral-israeli-death-squads-involved-in-sandy-hook-bloodbath-intelligence-analyst/
    I also went to your link to the Golden report and found it was a site based on Jesus as the Messiah. These groups usually base their “news” to fit into their end of times formula. the Goldens call themselves “Jewish believers” but I do not beleive them. The hijacking of the Jewish religion by christians is the cornerstone of christianity along with their replacement theology. It is no mystery to see why such crimes must be covered up utilizing chronic, serial murder of the witnesses over 2000 years. You will be happy to know that Goldens report is quoted as evidence on sites such as “Stormfront”
    Veterans Today displays the deepest anti semitic evil and seeks on a daily basis to discredit and blood libel the Jews in any way possible; I assume with the age old goal of genocide. I am glad that Ted lets you publish here and I hope that jews visit such sites to see the incredible, deep seated, hardly muted, vitriolic hatred of those seeking harm for the Jews; and it is the the tip of the iceberg. Jews were caught before because they could not believe that their anti semitic masters were capable of such deep evil. It is growing exponentially and i fear another holocaust is coming. I cannot comprehend how anyone who seeks facts with confidence in Veterans Today would not be an anti semite of the most evil sort.

  15. shachalnur Said:

    Since you’re interested in the economics of it ,I can recommend you a writer called Dean Henderson.
    He focuses on who does what,not who’s a Jew or not.

    thanks, Yep, I don’t care myself it it’s Jewish or not,I just want to follow the money.
    With the G8, G20 and Bilderberg secret societies don’t have to be secret.
    If six billionaire meet at the Jockey Club , it’s going to be a Cabal.
    ‘Organized secret cabals existing and maintaining over history – large or small.’
    Yeah it’s interesting and they actually do exist in some form in some non-secret way. Any business group can be a cabal.
    It may or may not have functional use – it’s interesting to look at.

    “Dean Henderson’ – just had a glance. That’s a good one, bookmarked it.
    ‘Left Hook’ – don’t know what his intent is but very definitely it’s worthwhile examining his researches and source material – he’s looking at the money flow.
    “fabricated Fiscal Cliff’ oh yeah – he’s got it right – the bankers invented a ‘fiscal cliff’ in order to put the screws on the population. Good stuff there. The best thing that can happen to Americans is that “America’ (the .01 percent) will fail.

    good enough.

  16. @ max,
    I hope you have enough time for your research ,because things are speeding up dramatically.
    Since you’re interested in the economics of it ,I can recommend you a writer called Dean Henderson.
    He focusses on who does what,not who’s a jew or not.
    He just published 5 pieces on the Rothschild dynasty during the last two weeks,you can find these pieces on Veterans today.com
    If you want to have a feel of what rothschild is doing to Israel go to http://www.thegoldenreport.com/“therootsofevilinjerusalem.”
    A study of the Israeli Supreme Court build on Rothschild land,with Rothschild money and architecture.
    No jewish symbolism there,only Freemasonry,Illuminati and ancient Egyptian culture.
    Just have a look at the pyramid with the all seeing eye on the roof.
    If this interests you I can give you more info.
    The Rothschilds took control of Judaism in 1802,and left ample proof of their plans for Israel in Jerusalem.
    Israel is gonna be pushed into a war she doesn’t want,coming from Syria or Lebanon,if israel doesn’t go into a conflict with their neighbours,the Dome of the Rock will go up in the air.
    Crazy? Sure,but this is what the Rothschilds left as a story in the centre of Jerusalem,a sword shaped diagram of buildings they build over 80 years,and it points at the Rock and the date is 2012.
    I,m pleasantly surprised Israpundit allows ideas like mine to be published,because saying or spraypainting any of these ideas in israel,will land you in jail.
    There’s several groups in israel that are following the same line of thought,Neturei Karta,True torah jews against zionism,Satmar etc.
    Also non religious groups ,but they are stuck in seeing Freemasons behind all this,and they can’t make the jump to the real Puppetmasters.
    Kol hakavod,israpundit.

    @ Max:

  17. Bernard Ross Said:

    #27 in moderation

    But if it’s to me, I don’t care, I really don’t,

    Like I said, you haven’t said anything,I don’t know already. I already heard it, it’s variations on a theme. Unless you got some new song, I like my ideas better – nothing you can do about it.

    But if it makes you feel better, by all means go ahead. – Orate.

  18. shachalnur Said:

    I got educated by my grand mother ,Dutch Holocaust survivor.

    That’s good, the value of what many of them had to teach was in how they taught not in the subject matter specifically. Tough people!

    I’ll save the information and try to meld it with my other research – it takes a long time to research this stuff.
    Thanks

  19. Max Said:

    I told you before I don’t read what you write except inadvertently by glancing at the page.

    Really, and yet you write replies? Of course you must say that, you are unable to answer the questions as they poke the holes in your narratives. You wish to come here and pontificate rubbish without being questioned on its absurdity. Name calling is your only argument. Therefore, you run away!
    Max Said:

    If you got something to say, just say it.

    I have been saying it in question form so that your own answers should be even obvious to you. Here is more. You come to this forum and insult people with your self absorbed arrogance spouting the most ridiculous conclusions without any basis in logic.
    Max Said:

    One is that group that rescued him and got him safely to Turkey was ‘Islamist’ showing once again that not only are there fifty shades of Islam there are fifty shades of Islamists.More to the point the ‘fifty shades’ are humanist people not Islamist ideology ad it’s important that they learn humanism by contact with us rather than Islamism.

    Oh no he didn’t?? Your conclusions, are without any basis in logic. You cannot generalize a whole population with one silly example, even if it is your royal conclusion
    Max Said:

    I recommend people tho throw away their children’s coloring books and study the real situation

    If you were not so arrogant and self absorbed it could be forgiven as the idealistic notions of someone so young they have not been around the block more than once.
    As somone who Pooh poohs “conspiracy theorists” you appear to have a few of your own conspiracy theories:
    Max Said:

    ….the audit trail is controlled and disguised by the powerful. …something stinks but it is hard to find the smoking gun when the rich hire the economists and own the media…the link between politicians and the elite is very disguised – the politicos get jobs working for the elite after their careers… More often it’s simply done… as part of an ‘old boy’s club’…We sort of have to work backwards by inductive logic ie who is profiting from what policies that are in place? Try to find out who is acquiring monetary power and then try to follow the flow to media and the politicians….Some people think it’s all about the prejudice or ideology but I think for the most part money and power buys ideology and prejudice.

    Its a pity you are unable to transfer some of your own thoughts to the scenarios of Libya, Egypt and Syria whereby it is pretty obvious that the US is working with the Saudis/Wahabis/Qataris/Jihadis/Al Qaeda/MB in the 3 arenas. This is the same relationship that obtained in the 1980’s afghanistan against the Soviets. It is a relationship where the Sauds are able to do many things that the US admin cannot legally do. There is a quid pro quo.

  20. J.S. Said:

    the brutal murder of Gaddafi

    On the scope of brutal, it gets a one out of ten. I thought he died far too easily and too quickly. It would have been better if he had his nose rubbed in all his crimes first before he was eradicated but he was far to dangerous to leave alive.


    My name is Gadaffi, King of Libya:
    Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!’
    Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
    Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
    The lone and level sands stretch far away

    … sweet

  21. @ Bernard Ross:

    I told you before I don’t read what you write except inadvertently by glancing at the page.

    I gave you more than an answer you deserve. I gave you a clear answer, that’s my bottom line and summary on Libya.

    I know what you got to say you don’t know anything that I don’t know and I’m not interested in trading propagandas and trivias with you. In fact, from my POV, it is not even about external events , it is about how you approach external events and as I said before I reject that approach.

    If you got something to say, just say it. Stand on your own feet, don’t use ‘Max’ as a foil.

    –)
    Oh yeah, I see it. I said ‘Kemo Sabe’, to poke you if you were really one of us.

    There is only one of ‘us’ in my book and that is the civilized human race that will be left standing when the Alpha Centaurians come to visit us and we will have no shameful back pockets full of Assads, Gadaffis, Pakistans, Irans, North Koreas, Hezbollahs etc. (Whew! What a job ahead!) And we will not have a shameful nor cowardly history either in how we dealt with them. (Because if we did , out past would replicate in the present and it would still be with us).

    Clear? Or would you like a road map with that?

  22. Felix Quigley Said:

    Do not allow this Max away with this stuff.

    Felix is the one person we can call a commie and it is not an insult. He probably wants Russia to return to communism. Well Felix do you miss the old tyrants? Did you worship Gadaffi like a manifestation of the Divine Chairman? Poor Russia they lost another client state.
    I didn’t ‘get away’ with anything. I didn’t kill Gadaffi.
    But it made me feel really really happy.
    Do you feel any happiness about any current event Felix? I wonder what makes you feel happy.
    Do committed commie revolutionaries have feeling or is it all like a computer program in there or like modeled after mafia bosses.

  23. I don’t think Prof Rubin wishes to ascribe malice to Obama’s foreign policies, hence, the current policies of the U.S. are described as “blunders”. (With regard to Libya, imo, it’s too early to claim a “success”, especially in terms of describing Libya as a pluralistic democracy (I tend to doubt that this will come about). Furthermore, I think the U.S. (including NATO) acted in an utterly dishonourable, disgraceful fashion with respect to deposing Gaddafi– America with Obama at the helm acts like a Third World potentate, never to be trusted. Gaddafi had (as everyone knew) been “de-fanged” — he was claimed to be “an ally” of the West. He gave up his nuclear ambitions. Then, what did Obama do? (Was this yet another instance of Obama recklessly trying to distance himself from Bush?) On the slightest of pretexts Obama started up with that ludicrous notion of “responsibility to protect” doctrine, and instigated the brutal murder of Gaddafi. What treachery.

  24. shachalnur Said:

    1790 when Me’ir Amshel Rothschild said”give me control over a country’s finances and I do not care who makes their laws”

    Yes, that could well be said of America Extant.

    The problem with studying finance is that the audit trail is controlled and disguised by the powerful. I can see from the results that something stinks but it is hard to find the smoking gun when the rich hire the economists and own the media.

    Another problem is that the link between politicians and the elite is very disguised – the politicos get jobs working for the elite after their careers and it’s also done through campaign contributions. More often it’s simply done through phone calls as part of an ‘old boy’s club’.

    We sort of have to work backwards by inductive logic ie who is profiting from what policies that are in place? Try to find out who is acquiring monetary power and then try to follow the flow to media and the politicians.

    Some people think it’s all about the prejudice or ideology but I think for the most part money and power buys ideology and prejudice.

  25. @ max;
    That’s a long story, Max.
    you would have to begin in 1790 when Me’ir Amshel Rothschild said”give me control over a country’s finances and I do not care who makes their laws”
    then you get to the Napoleontic war in Waterloo(1815),where Nathan Rothschild took over the British economy ,after spreading rumours that Napoleon won the war.
    Then you get to the First World Zionist Congress(1897) ,that was supposed to be held in Munich,Germany,but was moved to Basel ,Switzerland ,after total rejection of this political program to destroy Judaism by Europe’s Jewry.
    then you go to the creation of the Federal Reserve in 1913,where European bankers took control of the US economy.
    The story goes on and on.
    Try reading jewish sources; Rabbi Gedalya Lieberman”Zionism and the Holocaust”,Anton Chaitkin”Rockefeller,Nazi’s ,the UN,and mass murder”,Simon Shama(british Jewish historian)”2 Rothschild’s and the land of Israel”.
    All Jewish sources.
    Ofcourse there will be people like joe Hamilton,immidiatly shouting “the bankers are aliens”,but sadly they are not.
    Even people like Albert Einstein,and Hannah Arendt tried to warn about what’s coming at us.
    I got educated by my grand mother ,Dutch Holocaust survivor.
    I know this is controversial,but without adressing the ugly truth about Zionism,judaism is in serious danger of another Holocaust.
    The same tactics of whipping up hate againsy Jews,and giving the solution;Obama(der Fuhrer) and the UN(the Third Reich),are being used by the Elite bankers,sadly enough ,helped by the Zionist jews in the US,who are mainly secular,and totally enslaved by the bankers money.

    @ Max:

  26. Max Said:

    Nice try though. Worth an ‘A’ for Antagonism

    Try not to be paranoid. This is a forum where questions and discussions take place. My questions to you were very real and pertinent to your post as it focused on the relavance of events to Israel and to the Jews. This forum is called Israpundit for a reason. Your optimism and identification with the Libyan revolt does not take into account those issues. My wager is, as was in every other arab revolution, the Libyans will still be hostile to Israel and will not compensate their ethnically cleansed Jews. So forgive me if I have not one shred of empathy with all these “democrats”.Bernard Ross Said:

    Who is “us”? Is it Israel, Jews, US, etc?

    This was a very valid and pertinent question in the context of your comment.
    Max Said:

    ‘Us’ is the good guys, Kemo Sabe.

    This was an avoidance of the question and highlights the problem with your perspective, which although idealistic, it is also generic and sometime simplistic. Perhaps the Libyan changes are good for the euros and US oil/resource/geostrategic interests but it is unlikely to make any positive difference to Israel or the Jews.

    Perhaps you are too young to remember but in the last episode of the Lone Ranger radio series, when Kemo Sabe said to Tonto “We’re in trouble, we’re surrounded by Indians; Tonto replied ” What you mean we white man”

  27. Yet we are all stronger than we think

    For one thin g the economic crisis is going to cut across Obama

    Please visit recent article by caroline Glick. I wrote on this very long time ago. Obama is not a Fascist, he is a Bonapartist, or a Populist.

    he chooses issues he thinks he can bully on, win

    Obama lives because of the paucity of leadership opposing him

  28. Do not allow this Max away with this stuff.

    Laura in comment 2 above nailed the issue

    “What makes Ruben assume this is a blunder? Are we to believe the Obama administration just keeps making the same “mistake” over and over again in the Middle East in toppling secular regimes and replacing them with jihadists? At some point one has to draw the logical conclusion that this is the desired outcome.

    That is right Laura but it is very late. It is a very long long time since Jared Israel on his site wrote using the analogy of Is US like a helpless bumbling bear in a china shop

    A long time

    That Ted is what terrifies me about Israpundit…It takes so long for lessons to be learned

    It is late late late…I would kick this Max into touch just as in the Gaza Withdrawal Omri Coren should have been kicked into touch when he argued for withdrawal. Remember?

    Please everybody…Time is not on side of the Jews opr any of us…

  29. @ Joe Hamilton:

    The comment about the bankers? Doesn’t sound so insane to me. I’m pretty sure Israeli leaders are corrupted by financial pressure from the Global elite but I don’t know specifically how.

    If you have some information to prove or disprove it or explain the relationship of the global financial elite to the Israeli elite please elucidate me. I should like to understand it.

    Obama did pull the ships -not sure why – the idea about leaked documents sounds trivial but the rest sounds about right.

  30. Shachalnur Said:

    yep ,Obama is throwing Israel under the bus,the question is why?
    The people supporting/owning Obama are the same European bankers that own Israel.
    Israel has served it’s purpose ,in their eyes.
    Israel didn’t saw this coming,and when they did ,they tried desperately to put Romney in power ,and failed.
    Israel is under attack by it’s creators.
    Don’t be surprised if in the coming days ,there’ll be more leaks to embarras Israel(declassified Pollard documents,Bulgaria terror attack ,Argentinian Terror attacks (90?s),and even 9/11)
    Obama withdrew his carriers from the Syrian coast,and left only one carrier in the Persian Gulf,nobody is guarding Israel’s back in the coming war ,that will spill over from Syria and Lebanon.
    The endgame on the Middle East chessboard has started and Israel’s position right now is very bad.
    @ Laura:

    You sound insane. It’s not the European bankers who “own” Israel , but the bankers from the planet Mars. The Martian bankers also “created” Israel. Don’t worry, the Martians will guard Israel’s back . You should always take your medication before posting comments.

  31. @ Bernard Ross:

    The story is not over yet Bernard. The fat lady did not blow herself up yet.

    It a global problem what happens in the rest of the world will influence there.

    However I think we (and other innocents) are better off without Gadaffi, the future has more promise and we have more cards in the deck.

    —)
    ‘Us’ is the good guys, Kemo Sabe.

    Nice try though. Worth an ‘A’ for Antagonism on the world stage.

  32. yep ,Obama is throwing Israel under the bus,the question is why?
    The people supporting/owning Obama are the same European bankers that own Israel.
    Israel has served it’s purpose ,in their eyes.
    Israel didn’t saw this coming,and when they did ,they tried desperately to put Romney in power ,and failed.
    Israel is under attack by it’s creators.
    Don’t be surprised if in the coming days ,there’ll be more leaks to embarras Israel(declassified Pollard documents,Bulgaria terror attack ,Argentinian Terror attacks (90’s),and even 9/11)
    Obama withdrew his carriers from the Syrian coast,and left only one carrier in the Persian Gulf,nobody is guarding Israel’s back in the coming war ,that will spill over from Syria and Lebanon.
    The endgame on the Middle East chessboard has started and Israel’s position right now is very bad.
    @ Laura:

  33. Max Said:

    Libyan is now a pluralistic society. To paint everyone there with the same black brush is very mean spirited and demeans all those who genuinely fight for human liberty.

    Have the Jews been invited back yet to enjoy some of this liberty and retrieve their property? Have they opened diplomatic relations with Israel?
    http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/JewishFeatures/Article.aspx?id=279491
    Max Said:

    The Berbers there make great allies for us.

    Who is “us”? Is it Israel, Jews, US, etc?
    http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jfxeOghaZDHsQ7Zi5OwYRexn4dqQ?docId=CNG.12b3e2d8c5a021ba35421e540e77eecd.01

  34. @ Laura:

    OK thanks, that’s a more reasonable difference of opinion.

    It’s soon to become a moot point.
    And even afterwards it might be debatable what was best or for the worse, but we certainly will recognize what is worst considering how dangerous the situation is.

  35. @ Laura:

    I know what you think Laura so I don’t argue with you. It would be like arguing with the Borg.
    I just state my views without arguing about them.
    I just read what T. said – seems quite reasonable to me.

    Calling me an ‘apologist’ now really?!

    “MAX!” Banned in a thousand forums as a Zionist and an Islamphobe! As least find some more appropriate epithet for me.

  36. @ Max:

    ‘Obama’ did not bomb Gadaffi, the USA bombed his forces

    I said we bombed Libya.

    No we should not be helping the Syrian rebels and you are wrong about Libya. You are just as much a stupid apologist as Terence.

  37. I believe the Libyan Intervention to be a great success for the West. ‘Obama’ did not bomb Gadaffi, the USA bombed his forces and if McCain had his way ,Gaddafi would not have lasted one month, let alone eight.

    As for Libya sending arms to the Syrian rebels I’m all for it, we should have been the ones in first so they beat us to help them.
    Libya is not ruled by the MB, they lost the election.. Libyan is now a pluralistic society. To paint everyone there with the same black brush is very mean spirited and demeans all those who genuinely fight for human liberty. The Berbers there make great allies for us.

    Islamics have been causing the Revolutionary winners a great ideal of trouble there. Many just and heroic people have been getting assassinated post revolution by Islamist cells. Just this week they attacked a Benghazi police station with rocket fire and the SCC arrested finally some Islamist leaders who were behind some of the assassinations. They finally charged Jalil, a very powerful person, as complicit in the assassination of General Younis by an Islamist cell during the revolution.

    And many people as well women are fighting for their rights in Libya agaisnt an old repressive inherited culture. One elected congresswoman refused to wear a headscarf at the Congress inauguration and got a lot of flack for it. Not everyone there just as in Egypt wants sharia law. These people need to be supported.

    The situation in Libya is quite complicated and has been quite complicated for a long time.
    Complicated is good.
    Islamism is simple, silent (as the grave) and evil.
    Assad and Gaddafi were silent evil empires you can recognize evil by it’s silent.
    Islamic, non-Islamic it’s the same evil – the evil is fascism in all it’s forms.
    –)
    But one thing very important , that is non-political (as least directly) is the security problems Libya had and is having post-revolution.
    These are very important for analysts to study the Libyan model so that intervention post revolution in Syria can produce the best stability.

    I give a Libyan news site link below.

    It is the best possible news site in English and has not observable politics. It is very difficult to understand news i a country where people speak indirectly because there is stil a lot of violence but I recommend people tho throw away their children’s coloring books and study the real situation
    ..for better or worse a t least see the details where the devil is.

    http://www.libyaherald.com/

    Whatever a person is pro or against – this site is pure gold for info about current events in Libya.

  38. Terence, the Obama administration bombed Libya, publicly called for Mubarak to step down and is giving money to the muslim brotherhood in Egypt and it is sending arms to the jihad “rebels” in Syria. All of these supposed popular revolutions didn’t spontaneously occur coincidentally at the same time. So open your eyes and stop being an apologist for Obama.

  39. Wow! NBC’s Richard Engel was really lucky. It’s further lucky he got captured at a time when the rebels are making advances and the situation is in a state of flux. The Shabiha that captured him were delivering him to a Hezbollah stronghold in Syria when they ran into the new rebel checkpoint.

    Just think!
    Richard might have been exported to Lebanon and then the US might have released 1,000 terrorists in return for his dead bones … if we follow the Israeli model. (Sarcasm button)

    Anyway, he was saved a nightmare and and there are two things clear.

    One is that group that rescued him and got him safely to Turkey was ‘Islamist’ showing once again that not only are there fifty shades of Islam there are fifty shades of Islamists.
    More to the point the ‘fifty shades’ are humanist people not Islamist ideology ad it’s important that they learn humanism by contact with us rather than Islamism.

    Our strategy is best to contact and win over the ordinary people and destroy the Islamist leaders.
    Second the situ is snowballing – Assad lines retreated 30 KM south towards Homs yesterday, The FSA overran a huge army arms depot and the Palestinian camp in Damascus has been taken by the FSA and most of the pro-Assad militia there ‘defected’ ie ‘saved their skins’.

    BTW, It looks like Assad will not retreat to create a stronghold in the Alawite mountains – the route has been cut of to major traffic – The FSA has taken many of the towns and countryside in the mountain routes in the last two weeks.

    =====)

    The article above doesn’t seem realistic – just another propaganda piece to inspire full tilt anti-Islam hatred and equate Obama with Islam for domestic propaganda purposes.

    In fact I believe the direct opposite of that thesis.

    Rather I agree with this article below . If one wants to believe Obama is sabotaging the West in favour of Islamism , then he is doing that by NOT helping the Syrian Rebels.

    It has been too little too late. If anyone is responsible for the ascendance of Al Qaeda groups in Syria , it is Obama for his lack of American involvement.

    http://www.mercurynews.com/opinion/ci_22215755/trudy-rubin-time-nearly-gone-lead-syria

  40. laura

    What makes Ruben assume this is a blunder? Are we to believe the Obama administration just keeps making the same “mistake” over and over again in the Middle East in toppling secular regimes and replacing them with jihadists? At some point one has to draw the logical conclusion that this is the desired outcome.

    The Obama administration is not toppling secular regimes. It is as a result of popular revolutions that secular dictatorships have been falling like dominoes and Israel is absolutely not a factor. Iraq and Afghanistan has clearly shown the limitations of American power.

  41. Why is this happening? Because Obama and others believe that they can moderate the Muslim Brotherhood and it will tame the Salafists, despite massive evidence to the contrary. This is the biggest foreign policy blunder of the last century and the cost for it will be high.

    What makes Ruben assume this is a blunder? Are we to believe the Obama administration just keeps making the same “mistake” over and over again in the Middle East in toppling secular regimes and replacing them with jihadists? At some point one has to draw the logical conclusion that this is the desired outcome.

    But Western, and especially Obama Administration, policy is now putting into power yet another anti-Western regime that will oppress its own people and put a high priority on trying to wipe out Israel.

    This is exactly the goal of the Obama regime, to wipe out Israel.

  42. This outcome might have been inevitable any way but I don’t think that’s true.

    spot the error! I am no salaried columnist and have few resources but this outcome was obvious to me and others at the beginning. No amount of intelligence can trump good judgement and decision making(not necessarily synonymous).

    But Western, and especially Obama Administration, policy is now putting into power yet another anti-Western regime that will oppress its own people…..

    the question should be: what is the deal between the saudis and surrogates and US, EU, etc.? Some suggest the common enemy Iran. Perhaps the jihadists are being given those nations as a payoff for not being bombed.