President Obama’s ISIS Strategy Isn’t Reality Based

President Obama’s response to ISIS is another example of how our ruling class couples their illusions with whatever they find it convenient to do.

Angelo Codevilla, The Fedralist

President Obama’s promise “to degrade and ultimately destroy ISIL” may or may not end up causing problems for the Islamic State. Surely however, it further degraded our security by further engaging us in the combination of fantasy and half measures that has earned America a reputation for un-seriousness and opened hunting season on Americans everywhere.

Obama degrades America by dwelling in a politically convenient fantasy world. In his September 10 2014 prime-time speech, Obama claimed to have made America safer by combining the withdrawal of troops from abroad with the killing of Osama bin Laden and “taking out terrorists who threaten us” in places like Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia. Obama pledged to deal with ISIL in the same successful way.

In Obama’s fantasy, ISIL is neither Islamic nor a state. But distinguishing ISIL’s doctrine from the orthodox Wahabism preached daily in Mecca and Minneapolis, and that from the Koran, is hardly possible for scholars never mind for religiously illiterate politicians. In fact, some of the world’s wealthiest and most influential Muslims think enough of ISIL’s Islamic credentials to give it countless millions of dollars as a faith-offering, thousands upon thousands of young Muslims from around the world, including the USA rush to fight and die for it, the Muslim governments of Qatar and Turkey, respectively, continue to buy and transit supplies for it, while the Islamic world’s leading intellectual authorities have not critiqued its Islamic credentials.

De facto, ISIL is a state because it controls territory larger than that of a plurality of the UN’s members, and because the people it rules prefer it to their former rulers. They do so because ISIL shares the people’s religious sect (Sunni Islam) while the leaders of the former Syria and Iraq are Alewis or Shia. ISIL conquered its territory with the help of the locals.  In Iraq, the local Sunnis helped ISIL chase away the Iraqi army, and the Kurds too, using arms given them by the US government as part of “the surge.”

But in Obama’s fantasy, as expressed by Sandy Berger, Clinton’s former national security adviser whose advice Obama solicited, our confrontation with ISIL “can’t turn into a U.S versus Sunni battle.” “It has to be us helping the Sunnis battle the Sunni extremists.” It has to be that, regardless of whether the Sunnis who live under ISIL regard their rulers as extremists or not. The locals have to look at things the way we do. They just damn well have to.

More than that, the folks in the region have to believe in and fight for entities called “Iraq” and “Syria,” to which heretofore they have shown scarce allegiance but in which Obama, like the Bushes and Clinton before him, professes to believe deeply. In his speech, he told the world that he had helped fix Iraq by brokering the new, “inclusive” Iraqi government sworn in on September 8. By supporting its efforts “to address the legitimate grievances and needs of all Iraqis”- read, the Sunnis – that government will “drive a wedge between ISIL and Sunnis.” Thus, “The Iraqi Government is taking the fight to ISIL, and will ultimately be the one to defeat it in Iraq.” Inclusiveness will do the trick, for Obama just as it did for Bush. This time, for sure.

If the hard men who now run the ISIL military, who had been Saddam Hussein’s security cadre, who marched against an Iraqi army flush with top-of-the line US arms confident that Iraqi soldiers would hand them over; if the Sunni Islamist agitators whom the American occupation of Iraq had imprisoned for shooting Americans and who now lead an ISIL Caliphate that draws countless recruits aching to behead Americans; if such people believed Obama’s speech, if they shared the Obama-Sandy Berger thesis, they would be quaking in their boots. Odds are they listened to Obama’s speech with glee.

They heard Obama promise to reduce ISIL’s revenue “from oil and assets it has plundered” and to disrupt “the flow of external donations to the group.” They know, just as any well-informed person anywhere knows, that the US government has the capacity to do just that. But they also know what Obama would have to do to accomplish it – namely institute some kind of secondary sanctions on countries (and there are a lot of them) that traffic in oil sold by ISIL – and that Obama does not have the slightest intention of upsetting these countries or the domestic US interests that deal with them. As for cutting off the external donations, the hard men of ISIL can use their financial account books as comfort-pillows, confident that Obama – and John McCain, Qatar’s favorite senator – will bring zero significant pressure on any Gulf rulers to jail their cousins who fund ISIL.

The secular and religious men of ISIL did not hear a peep from Obama about how the pipeline of food and fuel and medicine through Turkey by which ISIL survives is going to be shut down. That is because it isn’t going to be shut down and ISIL, along with its host population, will continue to eat, drink, and be well.

They heard Obama promise to strike from the air to “degrade ISIL’s leadership, logistical and operational capability, and deny it sanctuary and resources to plan, prepare and execute attack.” They know that America has an air force that could do that. Heck, they know that Saudi Arabia and Jordan together have over 400 modern fighter-bombers that, even without American attack aircraft but only with American air controllers, these could starve and kill them in an intensive campaign over a couple of months. But Obama told them that all they need worry about is the sort of thing that America has mustered against its enemies in recent years. Massive campaigns aimed at swift victory are now politically incorrect in Washington.

Obama promised to limit “ISIL’s ability to extort local populations; stemming ISIL’s gains from kidnapping for ransom.” That would be serious. But the men of ISIL can discount the threat because executing it would take physically pushing ISIL rulers out with a substantial ground force. Obama made it clear that the U.S. will not supply such a force. (Good thing too, because a US ground invasion would likely repeat the disastrous Iraq occupation policy). The Kurds fight magnificently. But they have learned to do so exclusively for Kurdistan. The Iraqi army does not, and will not, exist. Iraq has plenty of ferocious Shia militias – death squads – eager to take the equivalent of Sunni scalps. But all know that Obama will do his best to shield ISIL from the Shia. The Saudis demand it.

Again and again, Obama degraded the English language by describing his fantasy as “strategy,” as in: “our strategy will be underpinned by a strong coalition of regional and international partners who are willing to commit resources and will to this long-term endeavor.” This usage is akin to: “our strategy is to make a ham sandwich, contingent on somebody providing the bread and someone else the ham,” or “the mouse’s strategy for dealing with the cat is to place a bell around its neck.”

But Obama gave no hint as to how “regional and international partners” would be persuaded to do whatever it takes to “degrade and destroy” ISIL – nor even of what activity and what level thereof would be required to do that – any more than how any mouse might go about belling a cat.

The American people watched videos of men like ourselves being beheaded by Muslim thugs with a knife who now dispose of a state, and who are drawing unto themselves God-knows-how many would-be beheaders of Americans. The American people reasonably demanded a real campaign to destroy ISIL. What Obama delivered was yet more fantasy.

Alas, our ruling class couples their illusions with whatever they find it convenient to do, and call it “strategy.” Thereby do they advertise their impotence.

Angelo M. Codevilla is a fellow of the Claremont Institute, professor emeritus of international relations at Boston University and the author of To Make And Keep Peace, Hoover Institution Press, 2014.
September 14, 2014 | 284 Comments »

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  1. Russia to build up troops in Crimea due to growing foreign military presence

    Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu said that due to increased foreign presence in Ukraine, “the deployment of complete and self-sufficient group of forces in the Crimean direction” has become one of Russia’s priorities.

    Moscow warns against panic as ruble plunges to historic lows

    Russia is not going to take this economic damage sitting down. I suspect the stage is being set for not only a war with Syria, but a war with Russia as well. Obama already warned Assad to butt out or else. I fear, the “or else” will occur with or without Assad LS
    http://warsclerotic.wordpress.com/2014/09/16/moscow-warns-against-panic-as-ruble-plunges-to-historic-lows/

  4. Israel must prepare for third Lebanon war

    According to a senior Israeli source, Hezbollah is already as strong as any other regular Arab army. Its ORBAT (Order of Battle), according to one of the intelligence officials I spoke with, is bigger than Jordan’s, even at the time when it was considered Israel’s bitter rival. For all intents and purposes, Hezbollah operates like a regular army. It is building intelligence capabilities. Equipped with unmanned airborne vehicles, it also has surveillance stations and manages a modern communications network.

  6. Rather, Dempsey said, the goal is to help set up a political force out of the military units trained by the United States.

    “We believe one of the advantages of undertaking an overt … train-and-equip mission is it’s going to force [the Syrian opposition] to find some way to establish a responsible political architecture into which this military force can play,” he said. “As part of the program, I can assure you that we will not only be training riflemen but also be training leaders, so that there’s a military chain of command to whom these Syrian fighters are responsive.”

    http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/09/fallacy-obama-plan-arm-syrian-rebels-congress.html?utm_source=Al-Monitor+Newsletter+%5BEnglish%5D&utm_campaign=96b70532c9-September_17_2014&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_28264b27a0-96b70532c9-100371289#ixzz3DbRIptII

    I would not be surprised to see the “overt” forces taking over positions from IS as IS moves on to secure more positions from Assad. Ultimately I expect most of ISIS to fade into the next theater which presents itself.

  9. @ Max:

    “I have both Sorely and General Abrams and many others (courtesy of MACV tapes) declassified tapes) saying different.”

    Fine. Produce the refutation. Show me with particularity some actual instances in which what I said was erroneous. Merely asserting that a couple of military (not political) types like Abrams & Sorely ‘disagree’ with me is not the same as showing HOW they do. Let’s have a look at some examples, Max.

    “We must learn the lesson of Vietnam – STAY!”

    But that’s not the ‘lesson’ of Vietnam.

    The lesson of Vietnam is that if you come late to the party, all the food (not to mention the booze) is likely to be gone when you arrive.

    So come early; if you do, the bad guys are less likely to get as good a foothold on the place — and you’ll have better options in the matter of deciding whether to stay late or instead head off for other places where your prospects are BETTER for keeping the neighborhood from going up in smoke.

  11. honeybee Said:

    Think how much easier your life would bee is you were a Apis Melliferas Drone ????? Sugar

    No future and very boring.

    Who would rub my back ? Other drones? Naw!!

  16. yamit82 Said:

    There is much truth to the canard “Can’t live with her and can’t live without her”

    Think how much easier your life would bee is you were a Apis Melliferas Drone ????? Sugar

  18. “Apis Melliferas”

    A social bee. Had to look it up, honeybee. Good one. I’m impressed. But then, I’m always impressed by you.

  23. ‘Have you thought seriously about what you just wrote?

    ‘Do you have any idea how long it takes to DEVELOP what you call a “nationalist identity”?

    ‘— you don’t get to just put it on like a raincoat, yahnkele.

    ‘(That’s why the notion of a long-standing, well-established Pali ‘nationalist identity’ rings so hollow.)’

    Well said.

  24. Max Said:

    All wars fought by America have been defensive wars forced to defend democratic civilization .

    Isn’t that exactly what your “elite” told you every time?
    Max Said:

    The oligarchy are not Western Civilization and culture – they are a small part of it that has too much control and is moving headlong to absolutism.

    and yet you said that we own nothing, that we are slaves, that the “elite” own us and control us….doesn’t sound like a “small part” to me. Perhaps you should adjust your “system” and get your contradictory sermons to agree with each other, Ptolemy can show you how to do that.

  25. Max Said to Yamit:

    you are not in reality. -that’s leftist fu-ll moon jab- ber wocky. What is the source of it – total ignorance of the common lives of the sharings of the life experience of ordinary human beings. Unable to receive the sharings of others you interpret the world around you through the prism of political propaganda.

    Again you are completely lacking in the understanding of the human struggle for freedom. As much as you despise humans , they want to be free.You can’t see it at all, you don’t get it. – what you see is their fas-cists against your fas-cists and you interpret everything in this paradigm.

    99.9% of your comments are composed of hysterical name calling. this is the mark and weapon of a fascist and an empty suit. It is difficult to wade through your mountains of obfuscation and evasion to find points of fact to discuss. the balance of your post are mostly composed of sermons from the mount of your rocking horse…..elucidating on your visions of FACT and MYTHS, confusing the two serially and chronically.
    Max Said:

    It is logical to protect our Western Civilization from destruction by external totalitarian countries and from internal fascism and any rise to totalitarianism within my country. Saving my civilization does not mean choosing rule by elites.

    saving your “civilization” means choosing facts and truth as opposed to warping facts to fit in with your hoped for outcome in your great struggle. Prior and current FACTS are not ascertained, or related to, your hopes, desires, dreams or your choices. You cannot logically state that the “elite” enslave you and in the next breath say that they are on “our” side. If you believe in the existence of an elite then the CIA is also a tool of that elite. This was already proven in the revelations of the 1980’s especially with regard to ongoing shadow corporations. Like Ptolemy you will have to make adjustments in your “system” in order to make it appear to be congruent with the FACTS.

  26. Max Said:

    Democracies do not create aggressive warfare to make money for the elites –

    And yet you also stated that in our democracy we are slaves to the elite, they own us our jobs, our money, our property. It logically follows that, if that is true then, the elite also manipulate the democracy to make make money for them both locally and in foreign lands. In fact, it is easier for them in foreign lands as there is less oversight of their actions.
    Make up your mind, does your elite exist as you proclaim or does it not exist as you proclaim?

  27. yamit82 Said:

    If you really want to understand what it’s all about start Here: Shmita, the sabbatical year for the Land of Israel, begins September 25, 2014.

    The “Rabbi” on the evangelical program on TV was speaking of that the other day. I was going to as you about it, but was busy with a furry of Honey cake baking.

  29. Max Said:

    The people if they have a chance and are truly free do not choose totalitarian rulers over freedom , they are tricked, bullied, lied to, propagandized and manipulated to do so and they always end up losing except for the palace guard – the circle of elite loyalists (such as American upper class Republicans) that keep the systems going. Even the guard loses – no one is safe.

    Are the CIA part of this palace guard that “tricks us, owns us and enslave us”? Are the generals and the army? On the one hand you say we are enslaved and duped by your “elites” and in the next breath you state that the CIA is on our side. Perhaps its that difficulty you have in discerning FACTS with arguments advocating desired outcomes.
    Max Said:

    For what do you wish to argue?

    this is where you go wrong regularly. You confuse a discussion regarding FACTS with arguments advocating a desired outcome. there is a difference which should not be confused. Yamit is arguing about what IS but you argue about what SHOULD BE supported. you keep confusing facts and desires……this is why you have difficulty discussing FACTS which contradict your hopes for the future. Why you rant about the elites one moment and the next moment they are on “our” side. Its a glitch in your brain which might also be explained by schizophrenia:

    M Devolin Said:

    “Roses are red and violets are blue; I’m a schizophrenic and so am I.”

    M Devolin Said:

    the malevolent excoriations of this schizophrenic who hates democracy as much as he hates democracy…

  30. yamit82 Said:

    The Heaven’s Declare the Glory of God!
    “The heavens declare the glory of G-d , the skies proclaim his handiwork

    yamit82 Said:

    I say this every morning, I have the most fantastic view from bedroom window.

    “If you go up high like an eagle, and if you place your nest among the stars, from there I will bring you down, says the Lord.”</a

    There a Bald Eagles nesting in the cliff above the house. Also owls, hawks, cougars, buzzards.

  32. Max Said:

    the only important thing is which dog is on top.

    Bingo!! I had to read your whole comment before I read something I agree with. The rest not worthy of a response.

    I find it difficult to argue with intellectually handicapped…

    If you really want to understand what it’s all about start Here: Shmita, the sabbatical year for the Land of Israel, begins September 25, 2014.

    Vayikra – Leviticus – Chapter 25
    Speak to the children of Israel and you shall say to them: When you come to the land that I am giving you, the land shall rest a Sabbath to the Lord.

    You may sow your field for six years, and for six years you may prune your vineyard, and gather in its produce

    But in the seventh year, the land shall have a complete rest a Sabbath to the Lord; you shall not sow your field, nor shall you prune your vineyard.

    You shall not reap the aftergrowth of your harvest, and you shall not pick the grapes you had set aside [for yourself], [for] it shall be a year of rest for the land.

    And [the produce of] the Sabbath of the land shall be yours to eat for you, for your male and female slaves, and for your hired worker and resident who live with you,

    And all of its produce may be eaten [also] by your domestic animals and by the beasts that are in your land.

    And you shall count for yourself seven sabbatical years, seven years seven times. And the days of these seven sabbatical years shall amount to forty nine years for you.

    In the ancient world if you didn’t sow and harvest you starved. According to the Law of Shmitta it would be two years before there would be a harvest.

    Israel rediscovers Shemitah in time for blood moons
    Jerusalem sets aside $29 million to encourage Sabbath year observance

    Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2014/06/israel-rediscovers-shemitah-in-time-for-blood-moons/#VrixKdA5Xth5yzSh.99

    It is my opinion that Shmitta is the most important commandment in the Torah.

    christian fundamentalists believe in the power of Shmitta. Problem is with the Jews of whom most never heard of it. Of course the christians got it wrong but they at least have some understanding. Here are two ex-Jews discussing Shmitta 🙂

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8B14NSIWc8

  33. Part 3/3

    “Imperial-ist polices”, Comm-unist bog-eymen” “invading Muslim countries for no reason” , “stable des-pot” ???
    you are not in reality. -that’s leftist fu-ll moon jab- ber wocky. What is the source of it – total ignorance of the common lives of the sharings of the life experience of ordinary human beings. Unable to receive the sharings of others you interpret the world around you through the prism of political propaganda.

    Again you are completely lacking in the understanding of the human struggle for freedom. As much as you despise humans , they want to be free.You can’t see it at all, you don’t get it. – what you see is their fas-cists against your fas-cists and you interpret everything in this paradigm.

    Once I was just like many of Joe Average, I did not think much about the nature of my society – sort of it was a blank – just like everyone else. elections, TV.. ho -hum..
    Then I worked for more than a decade in a totalitarian country. But that wasn’t the wake up , when I came back was the jolt. It was being removed from the incessant social controls for a significant period of time that freed my vision. When this fish returned it was suddenly aware that YES! water sported the fishies and that the water was dr-ug-g ed. I don’t know how to make the other fishies see the water – I think they have to flop around on the floor gasping to breath before they can see it.

  34. Part 3/3

    “Imperial-ist polices”, Communist bog-eymen” “invading Muslim countries for no reason” , “stable des-pot” ???
    you are not in reality. -that’s leftist full moon jab- ber wocky.

    Again you are completely lacking in the understanding of the human struggle for freedom. As much as you despise humans , they want to be free.You can’t see it at all, you don’t get it. – what you see is their fascists against your fascists and you interpret everything in this paradigm.

    Once I was just like may of Joe Average, Id id not think much about the nature of my society – sort of it was a blank – just like everyone else. elections, TV.. ho -hum..
    Then I worked for more than a decade in a totalitarian country. But that wasn’t the wake up , when I came back was the jolt. It was being removed from the incessant social controls for a significant period of time that freed my vision. When this fish returned it was suddenly aware that YES! water sported the fishies and that the water was drugged. I don’t knwo how to make the other fishies see the water – I think they have to flop around on the floor gasping to breath before they can see it.

  35. Part 2 (Robot censor post problems)

    It’s obvious you do not understand the basic nature of the struggle for freedom. Democracies do not create totalitarian states -They did not create Islam, Naziism,Communism etc The history of modern civilizations is democracies versus totalitarian states. Totalitarian states wage war upon the entire civilization democratic countries do not. Communist China will wage aggressive war against us sooner or later simply because they are a totalitarian State and has internal pressures to do so – it is only a matter of time.

    The history of modern civilizations is democracies versus totalitarian states and the victor has not yet been determined.
    Israel is only one of the battlefields and Islam is only one of the named forces of totalitarianism.

    Democracies do not create aggressive warfare to make money for the elites – if they can do that , they have become totalitarian states. All wars fought by America have been defensive wars forced to defend democratic civilization .
    Most of what you believe are just warped stories that are made up to discredit your “enemies”. Whether they are true or not is irrelevant to you. Truth to you is propaganda and population manipulation.

  36. yamit82 Said:

    . It’s you who claim that Canada and America are not democracy’s and are ruled by elites rendering the common man powerless.
    Yet you defend those Elites when they want to take you to wars to protect mainly their own interests and expect those like you to pay for them. Those same Elites you claim to hate so much are the very ones who profit most from those wars and each time become more entrenched more powerful and wealthier.

    Make up your warped freakin mind who you are for and against.

    Pt 1
    —-
    There is nothing at all contradictory about my position. I think your support for Fascism makes you unable to understand this simple logic and the fight for human freedom that most humans engage in. You have an incredibly warped idea of human history. It is very incredibly egocentric and paranoid – as if world events were specifically done just to pi- -ss you off and destroy your life.

    It is logical to protect our Western Civilization from destruction by external totalitarian countries and from internal fascism and any rise to totalitarianism within my country. Saving my civilization does not mean choosing rule by elites.

    The picture you painted above is the picture of a totalitarian state not the picture of an oligarchical democracy. You have very little true understanding of the society in which you live and that is because you do not wish to understand it but rather your interests lie in maintaining oppression.
    The oligarchy are not Western Civilization and culture – they are a small part of it that has too much control and is moving headlong to absolutism. However, if my civilization is destroyed by external totalitarians then how can it be reformed?

  37. yamit82 Said:

    . It’s you who claim that Canada and America are not democracy’s and are ruled by elites rendering the common man powerless.
    Yet you defend those Elites when they want to take you to wars to protect mainly their own interests and expect those like you to pay for them. Those same Elites you claim to hate so much are the very ones who profit most from those wars and each time become more entrenched more powerful and wealthier.

    Make up your warped freakin mind who you are for and against.

    There is nothing at all contradictory about my position. I think your support for Fascism makes you unable to understand this simple logic and the fight for human freedom that most humans engage in. You have an incredibly warped idea of human history. It is very incredibly egocentric and paranoid – as if world events were specifically done just to pi- -ss you off and destroy your life.

    It is logical to protect our Western Civilization from destruction by external totalitarian countries and from internal fascism and any rise to totalitarianism within my country. Saving my civilization does not mean choosing rule by elites.

    The picture you painted above is the picture of a totalitarian state not the picture of an oligarchical democracy. You have very little true understanding of the society in which you live and that is because you do not wish to understand it but rather your interests lie in maintaining oppression.
    The oligarchy are not Western Civilization and culture – they are a small part of it that has too much control and is moving headlong to absolutism. However, if my civilization is destroyed by external totalitarians then how can it be reformed?

    It’s obvious you do not understand the basic nature of the struggle for freedom. Democracies do not create totalitarian states -They did not create Islam, Naziism,Communism etc The history of modern civilizations is democracies versus totalitarian states. Totalitarian states wage war upon the entire civilization democratic countries do not. Communist China will wage aggressive war against us sooner or later simply because they are a totalitarian State and has internal pressures to do so – it is only a matter of time.

    The history of modern civilizations is democracies versus totalitarian states and the victor has not yet been determined.
    Israel is only one of the battlefields and Islam is only one of the named forces of totalitarianism.

    Democracies do not create aggressive warfare to make money for the elites – if they can do that , they have become totalitarian states. All wars fought by America have been defensive wars.
    Most of what you believe are just warped stories that are made up to discredit your “enemies”. Whether they are true or not is irrelevant to you. Truth to you is propaganda and population manipulation.

    “Imperialist polices”, Communist bogeymen” “invading Muslim countries for no reason” , “stable despot” ???
    you are not in reality. -that’s leftist full moon jabberwocky.

    Again you are completely lacking in the understanding of the human struggle for freedom. As much as you despise humans , they want to be free.You can’t see it at all, you don’t get it. – what you se e is their fascists against your fascists and you interpret everything in this paradigm.

    Once I was just like may of Joe Average, Id id not think much about the nature of my society – sort of it was a blank – just like everyone else. elections, TV.. ho -hum..
    Then I worked for more than a decade in a totalitarian country. But that wasn’t the wake up , when I came back was the jolt. It was being removed from the incessant social controls for a significant period of time that freed my vision. When this fish returned it was suddenly aware that YES! water sported the fishies and that the water was drugged.

  38. yamit82 Said:

    Democracies have historically morphed to demagoguery, tyranny and Monarchy.

    YOU CAN’T CHANGE HUMAN NATURE!!!!!

    This is a follow up to my post on Democracy which is in moderation.
    SO Yamit it is clear you choose fascism and elite rule over democracy. You are self avowed, you are anti-democratic and believe in personal and political fascism.

    It doesn’t matter why, the world is what you make it and your intent is anti-democracy. You can fight to make democracy work or you can throw in your lot with fascism -thinking you might get a better deal and survive better.
    Your reasons are something like: “She deserved it because of her short skirt” or “If I hadn’t taken their money someone else would.”
    Just excuses
    But you have chosen this it’s not other people’s human nature , it’s yours and you can direct and change your own nature and you chose not to.

    It’s quite common, I think a significant percentage of North Americans embrace fascism – only it’s not politically correct to call it that so they use other words – often the word ‘Republican’ has this meaning nowadays.

    The G_d you follow must regard all humans as trash – beings that are not worthy to be free, A G_d of slavery similar to the Islamic G_d of War. A G_d which you think will give you something a little extra if you help oppress other humans.

    And you fight the War, in your mind it’s your ethnic group against another ethnic group of which both of you have the same irredeemable unchangeable human nature – the only important thing is which dog is on top.

  39. @ honeybee:

    Film was well done.

    “If you go up high like an eagle, and if you place your nest among the stars, from there I will bring you down, says the Lord.”</a

    The Heaven’s Declare the Glory of God!
    “The heavens declare the glory of G-d , the skies proclaim his handiwork “

    He created all the Might and Majesty of the universe and beyond….but knows each one of us by name.

    honeybee Said:

    dweller Said:

    Guess you’re stuck with boredom after all then.

    you probably more interesting then you think.

    So disappointed in you if you are really serious.

  40. Max says:
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.
    September 17, 2014 at 8:43 am

    Yamit said:

    Yamit as you missed this one before about Democracy it seems so here it is second time around – reposted – and again in moderation.

  41. yamit82 Said:

    Democracies have historically morphed to demagoguery, tyranny and Monarchy.

    I have previously answered you about Democracy. It seems that you missed my reply probably it was deflected by moderation.

    First I repost:

    Democracy is the only road to human growth and freedom. In totalitarian systems even those at the top or the palace guard loyalists are dysfunctional in that their model of repression is internalized. Totalitarian systems can only hijack the past they have no growth of their own – they will thrive by cannibalizing , cause much destruction then burn out. An ultimate totalitarian system will destroy the human race as Islamism or the Chi-coms or Techno-fascism is threatening to do. In fact all the totalitarian systems before they will burn out will aggress agaisnt their neighbors – Nazi Germany , Argentina , Modern Chain – they can only exist by a constant flow of feeding off others.
    Human evolution, growth ,art culture can only flourish under democracy.
    All those things you mentioned , I know and everyone knows – you are using them as excuses for defeatism. The point is to make it work not make it fail. A protective democracy can evolve that will safeguard against all the ills you mentioned.
    I am well aware democracy failed in Roman Times – not the idea of democracy but the attempt to implement it. Since then I think Western civilization has modeled itself on the victors of that time – the tyrants.
    That does not mean Democracy cannot succeed.
    We, for instance do not want to allow slavery or repression against women in our systems (though I know it still exists). We have the same obligation to those outside our borders as inside our borders as we are all human. We must either neutralize threats (kill them all is fine, if it helps us survive ) or liberate them. Do one or the other but don’t leave these systems functional. Democracies even those relatively safe and secure cannot be tolerant of totalitarian systems as they will always threaten the existence of Democracies as well as they demean us all as human. Allowing totalitarian systems to exist means to internalize that system and destructiveness in ourselves.Those systems are wellsprings of human cruelty and brutality. In the really long run, in the really big picture human civilization must evolve beyond this with a militant protective democracy. I’m well aware democracy is limited and losing out in North America to elitist techno-fascism. The system of the past – kingdom and empires still had some freedom but with technology – we are in danger of losing everything that is human becoming the human trapped in the machine.
    I am also well aware of the difference between totalitarian systems and those with relative democracy. I worked overseas in the former type of system for more than ten years. I am aware that most Westerners don’t understand these systems- nothing is the same – they have no internal models to understand what a loss of freedom truly means.
    ..
    The people if they have a chance and are truly free do not choose totalitarian rulers over freedom , they are tricked, bullied, lied to, propagandized and manipulated to do so and they always end up losing except for the palace guard – the circle of elite loyalists (such as American upper class Republicans) that keep the systems going. Even the guard loses – no one is safe. Democracies can evolve to overcome all these problems. Even when the palace guard “wins” what they win is only a particle of the true human heritage that all deserve and can be obtained for there is more than enough for all – this planet could easily be a paradise for all even at 20 billion. Totalitarian systems waste everything, they waste resources, they waste growth , they waste humanity.
    …
    There is only one road forward – tho other road leads to oblivion, the world is now one place, people have to chose and they will get what they chose.
    ..
    For what do you wish to argue? For cruelty , for murder , for mass death, for poverty , for horrendous and unnecessary human suffering for putting the jackboot on the have-nots?

    Only you desire this from fear – because you don’t have the vision and courage to see a bright future for yourself and for everyone.
    Then your G_d will come to you when you are top dog and have ripped all the other dogs to shreds and asks you what you have done with the freedom of choice that has been given you? What have you achieved to be proud of?

  42. @ dweller:

    Talking through your hat as usual – you have no supportive evidence
    I have both Sorely and General Abrams and many others (courtesy of MACV tapes) declassified tapes) saying different. You need to do some learning before you have opinions.You haven’t even read the most current history of the undocumented years ’68 to 75.
    You put the cart before the horse. Such imitation of learning is mimicry and exposes you as foolish.
    …
    Iraq and Vietnam – Islam and communism
    It is the same thing – same situation.
    Democracy versus totalitarian systems.

    In Vietnam the West held off totalitarianism. North Vietnam was helped and supplied by China , Korea, Russia and even Cuba.
    If Vietnam had been by itself , they could have been easily rolled over.

    Incidentally Vietnam is now the third poorest country in SE Asia – their most famous export is to Cambodia in the form of sex workers.This last is what I got from many expats as I traveled the Hostel circuit in Asia – this is what Vietnam has become famous for – cheap sex with beautiful Vietnamese women in Phnom_Penh. In Vietnam the same activities can get the death penalty or not depending on the corruption , so they go to Cambodia. .
    What does this mean? It means that once Vietnam was no longer important to the other communist countries it became non-viable which means it could have never prosecuted the War only by itself.

    And of course to make matters worse there is an old Russian saying – “If Communists are in charge of the desert, they will lose all the sand”.

    .
    This was the West versus Communism – we held them there so they couldn’t go on elsewhere and we weakened them (eventually destroying the USSR) even though we could have done a better and faster job by staying.
    Now we have the same thing in Iraq,and Afghanistan. We need to keep and hold thee places, whatever the cost , it is minor compared to the cost of losing them ( and the oil wealth) to the enemy – ie militant Islam.

    We must learn the lesson of Vietnam – STAY!

  43. @ Max:

    “Why did the North kill all these people? – because they supported the West and America.”

    Not so, Max. Kill them they did. But not for supporting America.

    Rather, as an object example — to discourage any possibility that the others would even think about it.

    “There is plenty of evidence than in the latter stages of the war General Abrams helped South Vietnam achieve an efficient and independent armed forces with a nationalist identity…”

    Have you thought seriously about what you just wrote?

    Do you have any idea how long it takes to DEVELOP what you call a “nationalist identity”?

    — you don’t get to just put it on like a raincoat, yahnkele.

    (That’s why the notion of a long-standing, well-established Pali ‘nationalist identity’ rings so hollow.)

    The Communist Viet Minh, during the 30’s, collaborated with the French colonialists to destroy the (non-Communist) nationalist movement throughout Vietnam. They viciously exterminated the nationalists. Then, having no competition to deal with, Ho Chi Minh developed his own, homegrown, quasi-Stalinist version of nationalism

    — which fought the Japanese during the 40’s

    — then the French during the 50’s

    — and finally the USA during the 60’s.

    By the time we arrived at the party, Ho & his cadres had had LOTS of experience w/ discovering what worked & what didn’t — and they had a finely-honed & well broken-in instrument to work with. We never had a chance at competing with that.

    In the people’s eyes, we were nothing more than Johnny-come-latelys & outside meddlers — just like all the rest of the outsiders before us.

    Militarily, we had the technology & the fire-power, and we did okay, for the most part (better than the French, in the end). But politically, we were outclassed six ways from Sunday.

  44. yamit82 Said:

    Thee have been tens of thousands of books and scholarly articles written from different angles and POV. To rely on and base your opinions and world view on 1 or two cited works is in MO quite limiting.

    I said it twice already and you still don’t understand it, Sorley’s work in not just a few articles – it is based on the declassified MACV command tapes. He is is the only comprehensive history of the later successful stages of the war . In the prologue of “A Better War” Sorley examines all the other major Vietnam histories. They all stopped with TET, 68 and gave superficial attention to the later successful stage of the war when Abrams was put in charge. They all examine Lodge, Taylor and Westmoreland and nothing or next to nothing for Bunker , Abrams of Colby (the later stage) . The leftists had their knife so they didn’t care to find out anything else
    And Sorely specifically mentions and compares the works of Stanley Karnow, George Herring (America’s Longest War) , William J,Duiker, Neil Sheenan (Bright Shining Lie) , The Pentagon Papers. (Read the prologue).
    As William Colby observed – all these histories would be compared to ending the history of WW II with the Battle of Stalingrad. To many people in popular culture – yourself included the story of the early years is the whole story of the Vietnam war.
    It is not that I disagree with “other histories” of 1968-75, it is that they don’t exist.
    I had two friends that served- one Canadian , one American and they shared their narratives, – I observed the effects of this war on the public consciousness through the media. At one time, I only knew the common knowledge such as you and , dweller have which is the superficial version in the media. But I felt I hadn’t understood what had happened. They didn’t dissect and analyze situations on the news like they do now. I worked in a bookstore for a while and we had a specialty history section of SE Asia so i got to read all the new books that came out on Cambodia the period ’75 to 79 documenting the genocide there which was the first of the detailed personal narratives that came out from SE Asia post ’75. I have read many works about Vietnam my favorite being Dwight Birdwell’s Bio “A Hundred Miles of Bad Road” . Finally in 1999 Sorely’s book came out and though I had understood many information splashes about Vietnam and partial pictures it was the first time I got the full version from start to end and understood what had happened militarily.

    …

    Sorley wrote A Better War: The Unexamined Victories and Final Tragedy of America’s Last Years in Vietnam which was published in 1999 and nominated for a Pulitzer Prize.[1] The book describes an escalating war with the Lyndon B. Johnson White House viewing the conflict too narrowly to see pitfalls of the war. The book was read by Deputy National Security Advisor Thomas E. Donilon, one of the major foreign policy advisors in the White House who gave the book to Rahm Emanuel, White House Chief of Staff. President Barack Obama has stated that he has read the book as has Vice President Joseph Biden. The book has been compared to a contrasting book, Lessons in Disaster, which is widely read by military leaders. The Wall Street Journal reported the reading of the book by officials at the highest level of government and that it influenced the Iraq War troop surge of 2007

    ..

    One thing should be noted – Vietnam was a proving/testing ground for America, The tactics and Strategies Abrams innovated specifically the use of air power and how to earn the loyalties of local populations were applied successfully in the two Gulf Wars and Afghanistan etc.
    Vietnam made America strong.

  45. yamit82 Said:

    America never ever succeeded in gaining the support of the peasants who hated the Saigon regime and looked at the Americans as invaders in the country just as they had the French and the Japanese before the French.

    Wrong. Leftist Revisionst history. Newspaper scholasticism.

    According to political scientist R.J. Rummel, North Vietnamese and Viet Cong troops murdered between 106,000 and 227,000 civilians in South Vietnam throughout the entire war.[34] Viet Cong insurgents assassinated at least 37,000 civilians in South Vietnam; the real figure was far higher since the data mostly cover 1967-72. They also waged a mass murder campaign against civilian hamlets and refugee camps; in the peak war years, nearly a third of all civilian deaths were the result of Viet Cong atrocities.[

    Following the communist takeover, 1–2.5[349] million South Vietnamese were sent to reeducation camps, with an estimated 165,000 prisoners dying.[350] Between 100,000[349][351][352] and 200,000[353] South Vietnamese were executed.[354] R. J. Rummel, an analyst of political killings, estimated that about 50,000 South Vietnamese deported to “New Economic Zones” died performing hard labor,[307] out of the 1 million that were sent.[349] 200,000 to 400,000 Vietnamese boat people died at sea, according to the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees.[355]

    Why did the North kill all these people? – because they supported the West and America.
    Your statement is leftist media fantasy without any evidenciary value. It is probably taken from all of the popular histories which all end with Tet ’68.
    There is plenty of evidence than in the latter stages of the war General Abrams helped South Vietnam achieve an efficient and independent armed forces with a nationalist identity and the south had been organized into efficient militias groups so much so that they exterminated the Viet Cong by 1970.

  47. “You equate on one hand democracy and capitalism with freedom and human rights yet you rant ad-nausea about the very absence of those conditions do to the Powerful elites who have usurped wealth and power thus denying same freedoms and human rights to the citizens of America and Canada.”

    Well said, Yamit. He’s a troll, and he doesn’t know whether his ass is bored or punched. He’s no different than that brain-dead Trotskyite from Ireland who (thank G-D) I haven’t seen posting here lately (maybe he took my advice and moved to Cuba). I wish you and Mr. Ross would just ignore him and carry on with your discussions. I thoroughly enjoy when you and Mr. Ross discuss politics (and religion) as it relates to Israel. So much more enjoyable than reading the malevolent excoriations of this schizophrenic who hates democracy as much as he hates democracy…

  48. dweller Said:

    Guess you’re stuck with boredom after all then.

    Don’t be to sure bout that, you be amazed a what this Cowgirl can stir up.
    Goin to tuck up now, been making Honey Cakes all day. Sweet dreams!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  49. @ honeybee:

    “Run and hide, I am coming for you, Sweetie.”

    “Why hide? When you arrive, I’ll bore you to death. Problem solved.”

    “I doubt that Sweetie, you probably more interesting then you think.”

    “In that case, your remark — about your wanting Max & YoursTruly to ‘find a constructive occupation than boring us with your post’ — is MISPLACED.”

    “Until now ! But in the immortal words of R. Reagan. ‘There you go again’…”

    Guess you’re stuck with boredom after all then.

  50. dweller Said:

    In that case, your remark — about your wanting Max & YoursTruly to “find a constructive occupation than boring us with your post” — is MISPLACED.

    Until now !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But in the immortal words of R. Reagan. ” There you go again”.