31 July 13 09:43, Globes’ correspondent
Although the government’s decision to release 104 security prisoners ahead of the resumption of peace talks with the Palestinians was resentfully accepted by Habayit Hayehudi, behind the party’s decision to stay in the coalition, despite bitter objections by its members, is an agreement between Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Minister of Housing and Construction Uri Ariel. Hebrew daily “Ma’ariv” reports that, under the agreement, Israel will unfreeze building plans for thousands of housing units in Judea and Samaria in exchange for keeping Habayit Hayehudi in the coalition.
According to “Ma’ariv”, top sources in Habayit Hayehudi said that Netanyahu and Ariel had a secret dialogue through sealed envelopes. In this dialogue, they agreed to unfreeze building plans for projects, mainly in settlement blocs and in Jerusalem, in exchange for the decision to release the Palestinian terrorists getting through the coalition and the government.
“Ma’ariv” reports that plans for the construction of 1,000 housing units will be approved soon, and plans for an additional 3,500-4,500 housing units will be approved in the coming months. Sources in Habayit Hayehudi said that party chairman Minister of the Economy Naftali Bennett was involved in the contacts, and calmed party members, saying that he doubted that the new talks with the Palestinians would lead to a diplomatic agreement, so there was no point in threatening to quit the government.
Ariel’s bureau told “Ma’ariv” in response, “Minister Ariel constantly holds meetings, discussions, and correspondence with the Prime Minister’s Bureau to find solutions for the housing market in all parts of the Land of Israel, including Jerusalem and Judea and Samaria. The minister has always demanded, since taking up his post, that construction in Jerusalem and in Judea and Samaria should be allowed, and is working to this end.”
A hint at this agreement can be seen in the speech by MK Ayalet Shaked (Habayit Hayehudi) from the Knesset podium on Monday, when she turned to the Palestinians and said, “I see your celebrations in Ramallah. Take them (the prisoners who will be released). That is what you look like. This is our partner.
“You should know that for each murderer who will be released we will build scores of homes in Judea and Samaria,” Shaked said. “That is how it has worked since the dawn of Zionism: we build and they kill. Each of us does what he knows how to do.”
yamit82 Said:
I agree, that’s why I thought that lawfare was important from the outset regarding illegal jewish settlement. Perhaps its too late because most Israelis seem to agree. If 85% agreed on no release but couldnt mobilize what hope is there when half the country will be satisfied with Jerusalem and the major settlement blocs. If final borders and swaps are left to the end then no referendum is necessary. If no swaps and Jerusalem is kept then no ref is necessary, he can give all of C except the blocks and then have a referendum that only decides whether to keep the blocks and give up the swaps then israel will ok the swaps because presented that way with the rest of c gone they will not want to dislocate the settlers. He can make a ref for the treaty a choice between keeping the block or keeping thswap land. therefore the swap can be last even after a treaty on the rest without a ref.
@ honeybee:
I know. The used to call me “Grozny Yuber”…..
Spartans were dunderheads
Any African would leave any Greek in his dust either in a sprint or a marathon.
@ yamit82:
Watch a very scientific program on Human Sexuality on the Discovery Channel, last night and you are [according to the scientist] correct in you observations.
honeybee Said:
I disagree. I have been advised that size is everything.
yamit82 Said:
But they made a movie about Sparta and people stillrun marathons.
@ honeybee:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vx1OVLX5Rc
ArnoldHarris Said:
Perhahs our families know one another. My Mother’s family were Swedish immigrants living in Moline. My grandfather was the foreman of the roundhouse for the Rock Island Line. My mother attended Moline High School and later Augustana Nursing School. She often spoke of Jewish students attending high school with her.
@ honeybee:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg
This works for marriage also.
@ ArnoldHarris:
I said none of my relatives.perished in the holocaust. I spoke only that you have no experience directly of loss by murder of loved ones to empathize with or consider their feelings in such situations. I don’t disagree with your wish for Israel to be strengthened territorially and militarily. That said, ignoring what we become as a nation of values and principles, morals and concepts of Justice is a dangerous concept because any gains in the direction you wish for us would be at best temporary victories not sustainable without consideration of who and what we are as a national society.
Athens outlived Sparta.
@ bernard ross:
@ yamit82:
Ihttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg
I been eagerling watching your debate with rapted anticipation for every post and now I have my analysis.
@ bernard ross:
Alliances in this part of the world are at best ephemeral. Israel is stupid to enter into any of them especially when we have little to no power to influence outcomes. Best course is to see which way the dust settles. Egypt has always been the Arab standard bearer not the GCC. The GCC has never collectively or individual honored their financial pledges to Egypt and the Palis or anyone else. The Iranians seem to honor theirs.
Seems to me that the same Jihadists at some point will turn against the autocratic regimes they hate more than the Shia. In the end money won’t protect or save them said the “Scorpion to the frog” History has also shown that Sunni and Shia Jihadists will unite in common cause against Israel or the neo-crusaders.
bernard ross Said:
Smoke and mirrors he got what every Egyptian government since Sadat has been after since the De-militarization by Egypt of the Sinai. Re-militarization!!!!
@ yamit82
Yamit, you are correct in your assertion that none of my known or knowable relatives were involved in the murders of the Jews of Europe during World War 2. My mother’s family were Jews from Eastern Europe who had lived in Barrow-in-Furness in northwest England since the middle of the 19th century. My father’s family were Jews from deep in the Russian Empire who immigrated to the USA in the 1880s and who settled in and around Rock Island, Illinois and across the Mississippi River in Davenport, Iowa. Ny mother and father knew only about their own immediate grandparents.
But what would it have gained them, me, my only sister or the rest of their relatives to grieve endlessly for “justice”? And justice against whom? The Germans who committed those crimes are now all dead. Likewise, the various Eastern Europeans who aided the Nazi killers. The Hitlerite regime that organized and carried out those crimes is not only dead and gone, but are treated historically as monsters, status that will be difficult for the German nation to live down for a very long time. As for justice, you may want to consider that the German nation, as a result of Russia, the USA and the United Kingdom — with minor assistance from the French after their country was liberated, lost about one-third of their national homelands in central Europe in 1945, an equivalence to the one-third of the Jewish nation which the German Nazis had murdered or starved to death. And the Stqte of Israel largely came into being in 1948 as a result of the events of World War 2. You know as well as I do that populations of a decimated nation can be regrown in future generations.
But for any nation to regain its territories lost in war to a victorious coalition, the opportunity to regain such lands varies from unlikely to impossible.
For nations — in contrast to grieving individuals — The only justice that counts is to utilize every opportunity and every artifice of policy to augment its national strength and to use that augmented national strength to take from its enemies the living spaces — Lebensraum, as the Germans referred to it — to expand the territorial base of the nation. In this case, that means our Jewish nation. That is what I learned from the notable Jews with whom I have met and others whose ideas I have studied. And I had consistently refused to refocus my attention or dissipate my sense of direction on behalf of any other goal that involves the Jewish nation and the Jewish state.
Nobody can ever or shall ever revive the dead, Yamit. And the only way the losses of those victims of the Jewish nation can be avenged is to steadfastly build a powerful new Jewish nation suitable to populate the greatly larger Jewish state — even if the rest of the world collapses in shock or drops dead in horror at what shall be accomplished by our nation.
So don’t bother me any more about Jewish victims. I am only interested in knowing about Jewish killers of the enemies of the Jewish nation and the Jewish state. That is my concept of Zionism. I may pray for the victims but I know that to be a meaningless gesture. But when I celebrate the names and memory of the winners, I will know that it counts for everything. Because in the end, there is only victory or defeat.
Arnold Harris
Munt Horeb WI
@ bernard ross:
Not so sure I agree with you here: Russia is keeping the West from direct intervention and Iran is pulling out the stops in support of Assad. What makes me doubt your scenario is Assad is more ruthless than either the Russians or The Western countries and he will not hesitate to use what ever he can to decimate the Jihadists who are not exactly an organized or unified fighting force. They have murdered as many Syrian civilians as Assad and the people of Syria are returning support for Assad against the Jihadists from outside. Assad has offered amnesty for soldiers who deserted to the opposition and the word I got is that some if not many are returning. GCC money can only buy so much and my feeling is that after Aleppo falls Assad will begin mopping up the rest. I can see a scenario that they might target Iraq who is in the Iranian sphere of influence. Some are already migrating to Sinai. Will SISI create with these Jihadists a clone of Hezbollah against Israel? Partly to get them off his back and now that Sinai demilitarization has been largely abrogated with Israeli consent, Israel is in an even weaker position today than under Morsi. Iran is no direct threat to Egypt and while they are no enthralled with prospect of a nuclear Iran they can live with it and even develop their own as they have the know-how and an advanced Nuke program of their own. The Saudis would be more than happy to finance them.
Saw news clips of dope smugglers using high ladders to climb over our new security fence on the Israel Egyptian border. If they can smuggle dope they can supply and smuggle terrorists as well. The famed security fence through Y&S has been breached in hundreds of places and not repaired. It’s a porous border again. Iran too is not aiming to develop a Nuke but from 50-100 nukes at the same time. No anti missile system would be able to intercept and stop a large multi launched barrage.
No agreement with the Palis will negate or effect the Iranian threat and until that threat is neutralized I see no benefit to Israel from any agreement nor will it effect Syria and Hezbollah.
You believe that Obama agreed either to Back BB or attack Iran as a trade off for an Israeli agreement with the Palis? Do you really believe such a fantasy? Do you believe BB believes it?
Bottom line is I believe BB will in the end give them what Olmert was willing and then some.
I also doubt he will attack Iran nor am I convinced Israel can at this stage do enough damage to justify the risks and blowback from such an attack. I believe he will go for an agreement to cover his failure to stop Iran, and by the time Iran really becomes a lethal threat BB will be out of office and have pocketed his Nobel.
Israel will not only be squeezed on all fronts but will have no option other than capitulation or using our nukes as the primary offensive military doctrine. Obama and the EU will do all in their power to remove our nuclear capability for obvious reasons.
Israel reducing our military budgets at this time seems very odd. Instead of seriously going after black income (undeclared income) some 500 billion Shekels there would not be any need to reduce budgets at all.
yamit82 Said:
The one thing that has remained stable and even perhaps improved is Egypts response to terror from gaza and sinai.
@ yamit82:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4411872,00.html
more referral to alliances.
yamit82 Said:
that’s the appearance but how else would he look if he was not in their corner? I bet obamas corner is the GCC/sauds. Obama is doing everything required in law and diplomacy while his partners fund the army; just like his partners funded the “jihads”. I quit analyzing on appearance.
yamit82 Said:
this link is broken and I read the other one and it actually better explains the situation if debka is to be trusted. I dont know about a haniyeh/meshaal split but it appears to me that the approach to iran is part of tthe same group who were targeted by Israel in pillar defense. Meshaal appears to be firmly in the GCC camp. Qatar appears to have about faced on hamas in gaza and perhaps it has to do with the hams approach last month to Iran in lebanon. the qatar break was made after the army took power and yet there was no need for the break unless hamas did something wrong, like go to Iran when qatars role was to wean the brotherhood and hamas off iran. This leads me to wonder about Morsi amd the GCC for it looks as if tthe GCC may have engineered the coup with the army, Morsi appeared to be acting against hamas in the same way as the army now but there was question about his acting against the sinai jihdis. I get the feeling that Morsi also did something, perhaps he also was seeking something with Iran. although this is hard to support because he was ratcheting up the support for the GCC sunni war in syria. I feel there is something we don’t know because it looks like the GCC may have helped engineer the coup. I feel that Morsi himself was the issue, that he may have reneged on a deal with the GCC.
Israel has demonstrated that it was able to work with all 3 govts wrt hamas with Morsi and the army actually seeming more anti hamas in actual achievements. Morsi shut down tunnels(however, i had read that he might not have destroyed them but rather did something temporary by ordering owners of tunnels to cease smuggling. ) perhaps he was found out to be not really following through on his commitments both on the tunnels and on sinai. I believe the GCC wanted the complete lockoff of Iran to Hamas. It appears that Iranian money is the greatest terror threat to Israel in gaza, lebanon and syria so my bet is that if the GCC has made an offer that Israel is going along while being cautious.
yamit82 Said:
I don’t see them able to pull that off even if they want to. it will be interesting to see what develops internally in hamas re iranian factions and with GCC to hamas. If SIS loses against Morsi then all bets are off, but then that would only happen if GCC withdraws support. I don’t see that Israel has any other choices than what it has been doing, working with whoever is in power on its own security interests. there is no doubt that iran and its proxies are arrayed against Israel the question is where will the GCC and egypt stand.
Comment #28 in moderation?
@ bernard ross:
This is how Begin got the government to agree with Sinai agreements. He brought back to the surprise of everyone a signed agreement forced a vote within a few days after his return, no debate no alternatives were aloowed it was a take it or leave it proposition. The Labor party was divided and the Likud except for a few ideological Ministers fell into lock step with Begin although if asked 5 min before Begin announced his agreement none would have agreed to it. Party politics, personal ambitions and reluctance to oppose the titular leader of the party carried the day. There was no chance to organize opposition or discuss what was gained and what was lost nor the costs and dangers of the agreement.
Can you imagine a country with no strategic depth, no natural resources giving up energy self-sufficiency and strategic depth for a symbolic flag in an enemy country? Israel has had to pay out of pocket close to 100 billion dollars for energy that we had for free.
Israel went into hyper inflation reaching a peak of over 400% in a year and negative to flt line economic growth for 15 years. Only the Russian mass immigration got us out of that economic cesspool. We had a massive brain drain and lost up to a million Israelis who sought a brighter economic future elsewhere. Egypt during those years have built with American aid a large modern army that on paper is equal to Israels or even supersedes us in some areas. Since Egypt had no obvious existential enemy one can only speculate what their target enemy country is and who they are training against. If anyone had pointed out just some of the negatives how many would have blindly jumped on board based on puerile sloganeering like ” No More Blood shed, No more Wars”
Consider that Israel had invested heavily in the Sinai since 67 and 73. Billions in infrastructure the most modern of air-force forward bases, I helped build one of them called “Eitam” , Roads electric power grids, telepones water, some tourism infrastructure many agricultural settlements Yamit and Ophira. Israel received a flag on an embassy in Cairo and a few jobs for diplomats that nobody wanted. No trade no Egyptian tourism but Israelis ran to Egypt in the hundreds of thousands in the first few years after the agreement . It was never reciprocated.
The Israelis even with the foreknowledge of what I outlined above might still have voted for such an agreement but it was never part of the discourse and when BB makes his deal this time there won’t be any debate discussion either it will be rammed through with speed and approved.
That’s why I disagree with those who say it won’t produce anything and they can wait and see the outcome with little worry or trepidation….You mobilize and organize today at the beginning to foreclose such an eventuality even if it means bringing the government down today if you can do it. If the government of Israel agrees to negotiate it means they are at best willing to compromise and make concessions and that should never be allowed or even even reach that stage. If you can’t stop it inside of the government then it must come from outside of the government, but waiting to see the outcome is myopic, stupid and means that we have learned nothing from the past and not so distant past.
There is no discussion over the terrorists to be released, already accepted and old news. That’s the reality of what is happening on the ground. For most of us life goes on without even a minor bump in the road.
yamit82 Said:
I know the recent events, however at this moment it is much better for Israel than it was before re hexbullah and syria. WRT the future: for Israel a win for either is not good, therefore what is now is what is good. the missiles and russian base are as before. GCC is sending Taliban, AQ Iraq, busting prisoners from jail in Iraq and bengazi. I do not expect assad to have a conclusive victory just as the americans did not in Iraq. a conclusive victory for AQ would also be unlikely. Unless there is a negotiated agreement I expect the GCC to keep financing against assad. The real question to ask is why are they even there in the first place in this apparently “sudden” big sunni shia war. There has been a large uptick in sunni attacks on shia in Iraq also. I think that hezbullah and assad will be weaker than before whatever the outcome. I will speak to hamas in next post. it always sucks for Iarael but it appears to me that the current situation is better than the past where hexbullah was increasing in strength and assad becoming irans proxy.
No one will speak for YS and it is BB who guaranteed that outcome by choosing Livni
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/170442#.UflMLY2Tjes
bernard ross Said:
They are losing and have just lost Homs and could soon lose Aleppo. Assad is on a roll and unless the opposition gets massive support and aid if they lose Aleppo I think it’s over for them.. Hezbollah in someways may have been weakened but if Assad wins they will be even in a stronger position than before and let’s not forget they still have and control 60-80,000 missiles arrayed against Israel covering the whole of the country. They maintain this capability and threat no matter the outcome in Syria. The Russian Naval Base will become a serious threat to Israel as well.
Hamas Trying to Patch Things Up with Iran
Hamas has been meeting representatives from Iran and Hizbullah, in an attempt to restore lost funding. Asharq al-Awsat quoted Hamas official Ahmed Yusuf as saying that the group was reassured that Tehran viewed it as a “strategic partner.”
Yusuf, a senior advisor to Hamas’s prime minister Ismail Haniyeh, told the newspaper that he anticipated that his group’s ties with Iran would be restored soon. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/170365#.UflFLayBbfh
Tehran: For restored Iranian aid, Hamas must go back to supporting Bashar Assad
Since Egypt is broke and can’t aid Hamas very much at this time and since Hamas is also at odds with Abbas, I see them back in the Iranian fold ASAP. The final result in Egypt has yet to be played out and Obama is still in MB and Morsi’s corner. Israel has gambled on SISI and that could backfire in many ways. The Egyptian people will not look kindly on an alliance of SISI and Israel against Hamas. That sentiment transcends whether they are MB or so called secularists who are more anti Israel than the MB.
I wonder what the Status of the agreement Israel made with Morsi and Hamas is now that Morsi seems to be out of power????? Does that free Hamas and Egypt from their agreement obligations to Israel?
@ yamit82:
http://www.algemeiner.com/2013/07/30/israeli-deputy-defense-minister-the-best-israel-can-hope-for-is-failure-of-talks-video/
(perhaps even the EU drama is part of the show)
Report: Hamas Soldiers ‘Ready to Revolt’ After Wages Go Unpaid; Qatar Pulls ‘Millions’ in Monthly Gaza Financial Support at Request of Egypt
Aatar pulled the plug on $$, maybe certain hamas elements should not have approached Iran last month?
http://www.algemeiner.com/2013/07/31/report-hamas-soldiers-ready-to-revolt-after-wages-go-unpaid-qatar-pulls-millions-in-monthly-gaza-financial-support-at-request-of-egypt/
Israeli Ambassador Oren on CNN: PM Netanyahu is Committed to 9-Month Negotiation Time Frame (VIDEO)
http://www.algemeiner.com/2013/07/31/israeli-ambassador-oren-on-cnn-pm-netanyahu-committed-to-9-month-negotiation-time-frame-video/
“9 months” becoming the mantra?
@ bernard ross:
suck up and don’t mean the duck
yamit82 Said:
from Israel perspective there have been a number of plusses occurring and the questin is why? Egypt, both under Morsi and the army has been cracking down on hamas and I believe iranian finance elements in sinai. Gaza/hamas has gone quiet. PA is relatively quiet. Hezbullah has gone quiet vs Israeli de facto and their forces are dispersed and weakened plus they are under attack in lebanon and syria from sunni jihadis. Syria is weaker and their forces are tied up. It appears to me that an increase of the current situation is the best situation for israel in that there be no victor but rather increased fighting. However, in order for GCC to move jihadis from syria to iraq and iran there would need to be a drawdown of their forces from syria which implies their(jihadis) need for some sort of improvement in syria. There is the possibility of the Egyptian army or egyptians becoming somehow involved in syria or the gulf to lessen the need for more jihadis. I don’t know if this option has been foreclosed by Sisi using it to condemn Morsi. A continuation of the status quo might be israels best situation for any attack on Iran. somehow I doubt that all these events are coincidentally of advantage to Israel but rather meant to demonstrate to Israel what can be accomplished by Obama/GCC Also, I suspect the plan is to internally soften up Iran with kurds, sunni jihadis, azeris and baluchis in the hope they may fall or at least be weakened andd distracted.
honeybee Said:
HMMMM. You ain’t just whistling Dixie.
yamit82 Said:
focusing a little more on Israeli talks and what could go wrong from the perspective of BB. If it goes right he gets whatever he is looking for in an agreement and I expect that will satisfy the majority of Israelis; he will get a neutralization of iran, an agreement or opening of relations with the arab legaue perhaps even with an interim agreement. If it goes wrong he will get the image of having done everything possible for a deal,I have a suspicion that an interim deal will deliver more of B over to A, give some parts of C to encourage Arab residence near existing arab population centers, but that overall there will be little short term change and no short term commitment to land sovereignty change only change based on success. I have a suspicion that no side wants major change right now inc abbas and hamas because change will endanger their power positions.
@ bernard ross:
Teacher’s pet!!!!!!!!!!!!
yamit82 Said:
If Obama/GCC fails to weaken Irans proxies and lose decisively in syria,Iraq,lebanon then all the assembled jihadis who are not killed in that melee will turn on Israel. This may also be the stick if Israel does not play along with the carrot of arab recognition, Iran neutering, pal leashing. The GCC may upon seeing their losses completely switch to reconcile with iran and focus their energies against Israel. To speculate on what can go wrong with the “peace talks” depends alot on what BB seeks to accomplish if there was a final solution or even in an interim solution. My suspicion from all I have read is an interim solution is being sought. Another thing that will go wrong whether I am correct or not is that Iran will heat up all its connections in sinai, gaza,syria, lebanon and pa to sabotage and bring down any such arrangement. There are tons of things that can go wrong it is a very dangerous situation. Russia is a major factor that can mess up their plan. But I wonder if even russia can be bought. I am sure I left some things out that can go wrong 🙂
Please note that my analysis of what I think may be going on has nothing to do with what I would like to see happen bur rather with what I suspect is happening. So far, in all the regional happenings I have not yet found outcomes or circumstances which definitely debunks my suspicion of their plan. Failed outcomes do not mean there was not a plan.
yamit82 Said:
“WHOEVER BLESSES YOU I WILL BLESS!!!!!!!! WHOEVER CURSES YOU, I WILL CURSE!!!!
bernard ross Said:
Crispy with l’orange sauce,I hope!
yamit82 Said:
Yes Sir ,Professor Kroncrite,Sir!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ArnoldHarris Said:
Rough justce, shoot them and broastcast the event on TV, let the world scream. They will get over it. They have forgotten the Holocaust, haven’t they!!!!!!!!!!!
Felix Quigley Said:
The A word again, Felix,sugar, if you want us to believe you are an Irish trotskyite,stop using Amierican slang!!!! edit edit edit,
bernard ross Said:
Now write a paragraph or two outlining what could go wrong if your analysis is correct.
ArnoldHarris Said:
You don’t care because it was not your mother, father, grandfather, grandmother, sister, brother, son or daughter.
Based on that I wouldn’t care about the nearly 7 million Jews who were murdered in Europe because to the best of my knowledge I had no living close relatives in Europe. I wouldn’t care if Germany and their complicit helpers were ever made to pay for their crimes either.
When you remove Justice from the equation you are left with people and society not only not worth preserving but where there is no accountability whatsoever. Every freedom and rights you claim to hold sacrosanct today as an American like all your guns would or could be denied you because the law would not protect your rights.
Releasing criminals in such a manner destroys the rule and sanctity of law and a lawless society is one I don’t think you would opt to support or live under. Putting murderers away for life is societies way of extracting vengeance. What could result is everyone taking the law unto themselves to insure vengeance and Justice will be actually done.
BB has confused the purpose of his position. He is supposed to be a servant of the people. .. not a King or dictator. One needn’t be a genius to know what happens when murderers are arbitrarily exonerated for their heinous crimes. They feel justified in what they did and become examples for others to follow.
Felix Quigley Said:
You never explained why trotskyism is good for Jews although I have asked you countless times. You appear to assume that everyone should just accept that notion.
Felix Quigley Said:
please explain, what would be the platform of that party and how many of the youth under 60 would know what trotsky stands for(as opposed to lets say Stalin)
Felix Quigley Said:
You appear to be trying to sell decadent dead ducks(trotsky?) to jews. it is inexplicable that you are still unable to link trotsky with jewish betterment regardless of the numerous opportunities you have been given here. You have disproven the myth that “where there is smoke, there is fire”, you are only sending smoke. Perhaps you should engage a writing coach………Trotsky who??? 😛
yamit82 Said:
I agree. it appears that the Jews have a habit of sacrificing something to “save” something else. That being sacrificed is always today whereas that being “saved” or “gained” is always at some future time(never). this is appeasement and when it involves people it is Kapoism because those being sacrificed are always the other Jews.
My suspicion is that the deal is that there will be no deal of any effect and that Bennet knows this as a facct rather than an opinion. That there will be some interim or incomplete agreement leaving the main things to later. That the 9 months is a cover for Iran and the prisoner release is for abbas to show his street because the 4 billion, though enough for him, would not suffice to satisfy his mob. I see a deal to have no deal but to remove the Israel/pal issue from the arena for 9 months(which is the “red line”)
Felix Quigley Said:
That’s true and for once I am with 99.9999999% of the rest of the world. Nobody in their right mind would opt for ideas that have been shown even proven to be wrong and have been shown by many examples to be anti-human, and whose results were abject failures. Conclusion is you are trying to sell old and worn damaged goods that no-one wants.
We lost only a major battle to Begin, I don’t believe the final chapters have been written or played out yet. In any case not long after Begin kicked us out of Sinai, (that worthless peace of crud went into a depression and succumbed to it by dying). Begin is dead and his memory is fading because in the end the consequences of his treason against the Jewish people and the nation of Israel will be apparent for all but the most obtuse.
Lessons: What lessons would you suggest we learn???? Speak up! Tell us in your own words what lessons we haven’t learned.
Jews can be anything and have like commies and followers of Trotsky. But that would make them Stupid lousy Jews and to date there have been so few mostly because most Jews are not that stupid.
Cut to the chase and describe even outline such a revolutionary program otherwise you are talking abstracts and how can we be responsive to unknown abstractions? What’s the program?????
I have written before and I shall write again that I could not care less about releases of prisoners; mostly because I do not believe in or care about justice. I would have been even happier if Israel had killed those men rather than imprisoning at the expense of Israeli taxpayers. In fact, I would just as soon see Israel take and hold hostages to trade back to the Arab gangs or governments (actually, all Arab governments are little more than gangs)
My concerns are focused on the need for Israel to all but blanket Shomron and Yehuda with Jewish residents, commercial and industrial parks, agricultural activity and state-owned parklands; and if doing this in the entirety of Shomron and Yehuda is not yet feasible, then focus on the 72 percent of those territories comprised by Area C as defined in the Oslo accords. That step makes it easier for Israel’s timid governments to annex Area C outright. And once that is done, any expectation or hope for another Arab state west of the Jordan River, in addition to the statelet that Gaza has become, impossible.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
yamit82 Said:
Agreed – the Labor Party would never have agreed to release the terrorists from prison. I can’t see Shelly Yachimovich being that sleazy – she has her principles. But when the Right decided to gamble every thing on re-electing Netanyahu, it was only a matter of time before he sold them down the river. What comes around goes around. And the Right can hardly blame the Left for this fiasco! It had nothing to do with it. Labor didn’t push for a Palestinian Arab state. That was those great lovers of the Land Of Israel – the Likud. In Israel, political ideology tells you nothing about a person’s principles. When Netanyahu falls all over himself to slobber a visceral anti-Semite, we can see the Likud has little in common with its own proclaimed platform.
You Yamit are the slippery slope but your arrogance does not let you see it. That slippery slope fashioned by you and Ross and your hatred of the idea that Jews can be communists and Trotskyists.
But that is what is needed today in Israel. A Trotskyist Party to mobilise the youth, workers and Jewish Patriots on a really revolutionary programme.
You are a dead duck and preach only decadence
One of your “principles” is to do down the principles that my movement stands on. Empty talk. YOU were defeated by Begin and have learned no lessons.
Do not let anyone tell you that principles do not matter and that expediency and compromise of principle is a wise and practical option. Look where we were before begin and were we are today. It’s been a long slippery slope backwards ever since.
And what are principles? Empty talk! Bullshit talk as always from Yamit!
I read this with extreme interest. There is nothing under the sun new in this. It follows the very old method of British rule over Ireland and over their Empire, based on “divide and rule”.
But if some (not Yamit) think that therefore a false and empty unity is the lesson to “divide and rule” then think again and think very hard.
And what here does Yamit mean by “principles”. One of his principles here and of others such as Ross was to slander the record and name of Leon Trotsky and of Trotskyism which I had put forward as views which should be considered by today’s Jews of Israel and wider.
In fact as he says Sinai was a total defeat and disaster for the Jews. But he does not draw necessary lessons.
Why was that struggle of Jews allowed to be isolated.
I posit that it was the lack of a revolutionary Trotskyist perspective on the part of people like Yamit.
He places the blame on the Jewish ruling class, which of course includes Begin the once revolutionary, and on the Settler Aristocracy, who worked in tandem with Begin.
But the total absence of a revolutionary party in Israel that Yamit obscures.
But that was the reason for the defeat.
As Sherman said Israel is at the very end of the road travelled and must seek a new road.
And Yamit and Ross especially have slandered the views of Trotskyism and my views and have done so very consciously, in ordet to stop the Jews travelling onto the road of revolutionary world socialism.
YAMIT AND ROSS ARE THE PROBLEM
And what are principles? Empty talk! Bullshit talk as always from Yamit!
I read this whole with extreme interest. There is nothing under the sun new in this. It follows the very old method of British rule over Ireland and over their Empire, based on “divide and rule”.
But if some (not Yamit) think that therefore a false and empty unity is the lesson to “divide and rule” then think again and think very hard.
And what here does Yamit mean by “principles”. One of his principles here and of others such as Ross was to slander the record and name of Leon Trotsky and of Trotskyism which I had put forward as views which should be considered by today’s Jews of Israel and wider.
In fact as he says Sinai was a total defeat and disaster for the Jews. But he does not draw necessary lessons.
Why was that struggle of Jews allowed to be isolated.
I posit that it was the lack of a revolutionary Trotskyist perspective on the part of people like Yamit.
He places the blame on the Jewish ruling class, which of course includes Begin the once revolutionary, and on the Settler Aristocracy, who worked in tandem with Begin.
But the total absence of a revolutionary party in Israel that Yamit obscures.
But that was the reason for the defeat.
As Sherman said Israel is at the very end of the road travelled and must seek a new road.
And Yamit and Ross especially have slandered the views of Trotskyism and my views and have done so very consciously, in ordet to stop the Jews travelling onto the road of revolutionary world socialism.
YAMIT AND ROSS ARE THE PROBLEM
Some Israeli History:
After Begin agreed to withdraw from Sinai including the settlements it took 3 years to finalize and withdraw all IDF forces from Sinai, and all of we Israelis who were living in the Sinai. We resident fought the government pretty much on our own and had little support from the outside.
At that time we had verbal support from the Gush Imunim the mostly religious settler movement but they did what they did with little to no coordination with us. They had rally’s mostly in Jerusalem and made pilgrimages to Yamit to see what Begin had agreed to give away. This went on for almost 2 1/2 years. 3 months before the date the government gave for the final evacuation of all people and the destruction of all the settlements by the IDF a few hundred stalwart leaders and young people moved into Yamit to oppose the IDF and the Begin government. By that time most of the residents of Yamit and the other settlements had already left.
These few hundred created for Begin some political theater by pretending to oppose the evacuation making Begin look good and sorrowful over his hard decision.
Facts: Begin after returning from Camp David refused to meet with any representatives from the Sinai settlements. He refused to come to Yamit and face us after his decision. He always used a few of his loyal old time flunkies to do his dirty work.
We found out much later that the settler movement had made a deal with Begin to provide some physical opposition but not too much and that Begin as a reward would agree to build many new settlements in Y&S.
General Haim Erez is on record of stating that if 100,000 Israelis had come to prevent the destruction of Yamit and the final evacuation of the settlers there he could not have accomplished his mission and would have had to tell Begin that he could not do it. Instead of 100,000 we had a few hundred protesting and they were mostly kids and students.
The settlers of the West Bank should know that many of their settlements exist and were built on the bones of other settlers in the Sinai.
That was the dirty deal. The religious settlement movement sold us out. Unlike gush Katif at least we fought Begin every step of the way we gave him no peace or respite. The more we fought Begin the more he and his group of yes men defamed us and cast us in the blackest terms to make sure most Public opinion was against us.
He like BB became for a while until Lebanon the darling to the extreme left and right.
I still to this day have a file with the police as a suspect in the blowing up of the car of administrator of Yamit, a government appointed ex colonel, from the housing ministry. I didn’t do it but the file still exists. I think that’s one of the reasons other than my American passport that the Mossad tried to recruit me later on. I turned them down flat.
The settlers in Sinai ( all government approved and encouraged: Labor party) were betrayed by everybody right and left but mostly from the right. We had more support from the left and Labor party than we did from the phony right who worshiped Begin more than the Land of Israel and our security.
Everything you see today in our conflict with the Palis is a result of the Begin deal with Egypt where the principles of Land for peace were established by precedent along with the precedent of ethic cleansing of Jews from their homes and farms. The principle of destroying permanent Jewish settlement was also established.
Do not let anyone tell you that principles do not matter and that expediency and compromise of principle is a wise and practical option. Look where we were before begin and were we are today. It’s been a long slippery slope backwards ever since.