T. Belman. The author encourages Congress to “ensure in a cool, logical, and peaceful manner, that the 2020 election is never repeated” Not good enough. It must be undone.
Earlier in the week, I asked the question: What if Proof of 2020 Presidential Election Fraud Develops? I mentioned several remedies that have been widely talked about from impeachment to a Pentagon coup to rioting in the streets.
None is an ideal solution. The first wouldn’t correct the problem, the second would turn the United States into a third-world banana republic and the last would bring about a modern version of the bloody chaos that characterized post-revolutionary France. An ideal solution would reverse Biden’s inauguration and inaugurate Donald Trump as the rightful president — and do so while maintaining our Constitutional Republic.
There is another option that theoretically could do that, one based on concepts familiar to Americans, thanks to shows from Perry Mason to Law & Order: “Fraud vitiates everything” and “fruit of the poison tree.”
In 1878, in United States v. Throckmorton, the Supreme Court held that “There is no question of the general doctrine that fraud vitiates the most solemn contracts, documents, and even judgments.” In English, fraud invalidates contracts – and an election is nothing if not a contract. Everyone knows if you sign a contract based on fraudulent information, that contract is invalid. That leads to “void ab initio“ which means that fraud from the beginning taints everything resulting from it.
The other doctrine is one we’ve seen TV lawyers use to throw out evidence against their client because it was obtained illegally. The evidence is inadmissible as the “Fruit of a poison tree.” The Supreme Court, in 1939, explained this in Nardone v. United States which holds that, if a tree is poisonous, so too is its fruit. (Hat tip to Andrea Widburg, Donna Palen, and Al Simon)
This means that, if fraud is shown, the election is invalid. Biden is not president and every action his administration took is void as if it never happened. Of course, that’s never been done in a presidential election but it’s happened a handful of times in lower elections.
The fly in the ointment is that this requires a court – inevitably, the Supreme Court — to rule that the election was indeed fraudulent. Given the Supreme Court’s general (but very selective) reluctance to wade into political areas – particularly highly volatile ones – and this particular Court’s demonstrated cowardice, it’s unlikely that it would consider the matter.
Which. I think, leaves us with this: If the Constitution cannot remedy acts bastardizing it, something new must be done. As the Founding Fathers did in 1776, it may be necessary to rewrite the playbook. That rewritten playbook, while not a new Declaration of Independence, is a tentative Pact of Secession.
This pact would be among the states whose rightful votes should have gone to Donald Trump. These states should make it clear that fraud infringed on their citizen’s right to a constitutional federal government. If Congress does not remedy the situation, they will in unison secede. This Pact would not literally be secession. It would merely announce a proposed action that Congress could avoid by rectifying the 2020 election’s demonstrated constitutional deficits.
If void ab initio fails, there’s no blueprint to correct the 2020 election because Congress, the states. and the Supreme Court allowed an unconstitutional inauguration to occur in the first place. Nonetheless, the theft of the highest office in the land simply cannot stand. As New York, California, and other Democrat states are seeing in their streets today, if you allow thieves to steal or thugs to harass and assault with impunity, you get more of each.
The same holds true with election fraud, and the subsequent usurpation of the apparatus of government and the coercive powers that come with it. If this theft is allowed to stand, then no American can go forward with confidence in the nation’s elections and the system based on them.
Once again, the Constitution is nothing more than a piece of paper. It is the citizens’ loyalty to that Constitution and the system built upon it that makes it work. After all, the old Soviet Union, Cuba, China, and most other dictatorships regularly have constitutions that promise freedoms and rights to their citizens that the governments ignore. Words on a paper mean nothing if the government is not bound by them and the citizens have no confidence in them.
This is, as the British might say, a bloody mess. Indeed, the last time secession played a pivotal role in American history that’s exactly what we got. However, we can avoid that. Spurred by a Pact of Secession, Congress will have an opportunity, in concert with the states themselves, to address the demonstrated fraud and ensure, in a cool, logical, and peaceful manner, that the 2020 election is never repeated.
There is a peaceful way forward but Congress must understand that, once American’s see there was a fire under the smoke from November 4th, they will not sit idly by and watch their Constitution shredded. Too many have paid too high a price so that Americans could live under the umbrella of liberty it provides to allow such a transgression to prevail.
IMAGE: Picpedia CC BY-SA 3.0 license.
Curious what they are hiding.
(2 of 2)
As to the process, it is beyond the constitution. That would require an assembly of the states to rectify the matter with the people demanding it. SCOTUS could deal with it as the fraud is clear, but it is between the branches so they really shouldn’t and so probably won’t. It really is an extra-constitutional matter that the states would have to address.
The military will, I believe support the outcome of such a body. I do not believe they will overthrow Biden, but they also won’t fight the will of the states and the people to keep him – nobody loves the man, it is what it is. But again, if the people don’t respond then the USA is a Chinese vassal and the people already own it. I do not believe this to be the case, but time will tell.
A couple more points. 2024. The machines are not going anywhere. To return confidence and accuracy to the elections, the 2020 election must be remedied as I noted above. Then the machines may be removed. Then 2024 will be what it will be, otherwise, like in GA on Jan. 5, we already know what the outcome will be.
Violence. There will be no armed revolt. Such a thing would only be needed if the fraud was not provable. It is and the courts will likely be forced to demonstrate it. If Antifa and BLM attack the people, things will occur and we will see who has the stronger stomach for such things. As Adam has stated the other side is better at such games as these and they own the FBI and DOJ, but that will have to play out.
Impeachment is not relevant. The Republicans will probably retake the congress due to the downballot fraud, but Harris or Pelosi instead of Biden is just a different joker card from the same vitiated deck.
SCOTUS. SCOTUS can not kick the president out of office, but they can judge an election illegitimate and force the election into a redo or deciding on the honest outcome as the digital info is available. But as Milhouse pointed out, it is more complicated than this. Further it is between the branches. The Court doesn’t like making such rulings and usually tries to punt. But if the nation is ripping apart in protests, and the fraud is obvious by a foreign hand, and there is significant down ballot mischief – there could be, and I would argue that it is reasonable to assume there likely are, dozens or more seats to overturn in the same election scandal as the president…well, it is pretty compelling. But it would be necessary to assume the court is not compromised(not likely). So it would likely need a convention of the states plus input from Trump and Biden to resolve.
Ultimately the line that Trump put out about it being in the hands of the public as to what they will accept will judge the pulse of the outcome. But that is how so many people went to Washington on Jan 6. That is why the Congress was so intimidated. That is why they stated the assault and killed Babbitt. Much has happened since then, and they now are running the State, but the states will respond or not based on the will of the people.
/2
(2 of 2)
As to the process, it is beyond the constitution. That would require an assembly of the states to rectify the matter with the people demanding it. SCOTUS could deal with it as the fraud is clear, but it is between the branches so they really shouldn’t and so probably won’t. It really is an extra-constitutional matter that the states would have to address.
The military will, I believe support the outcome of such a body. I do not believe they will overthrow Biden, but they also won’t fight the will of the states and the people to keep him – nobody loves the man, it is what it is. But again, if the people don’t respond then the USA is a Chinese vassal and the people already own it. I do not believe this to be the case, but time will tell.
A couple more points. 2024. The machines are not going anywhere. To return confidence and accuracy to the elections, the 2020 election must be remedied as I noted above. Then the machines may be removed. Then 2024 will be what it will be, otherwise, like in GA on Jan. 5, we already know what the outcome will be.
Violence. There will be no armed revolt. Such a thing would only be needed if the fraud was not provable. It is and the courts will likely be forced to demonstrate it. If Antifa and BLM attack the people, things will occur and we will see who has the stronger stomach for such things. As Adam has stated the other side is better at such games as these and they own the FBI and DOJ, but that will have to play out.
Impeachment is not relevant. The Republicans will probably retake the congress due to the downballot fraud, but Harris or Pelosi instead of Biden is just a different joker card from the same vitiated deck.
Ultimately the line that Trump put out about it being in the hands of the public as to what they will accept will judge the pulse of the outcome. But that is how so many people went to Washington on Jan 6. That is why the Congress was so intimidated. That is why they stated the assault and killed Babbitt. Much has happened since then, and they now are running the State, but the states will respond or not based on the will of the people.
/2
(1 of 2)
@adamdalgliesh
@Bear Klein
So, a few thoughts more. Adam is correct, about a great deal, as usual. But there is a few points I think that are overlooked. The USA is in a constitutional crisis. This means it is beyond the constitution to rectify the matter. But some accommodation will have to be reached either among the states in a Constitutional Convention or thru the Judiciary. The SCOTUS is not likely to support the reversal, but they might. Many things will have changed in the coming months.
As of now, these matters are yet to be revealed, so as Adam says, there is no outrage in the streets. There will be no armed resistance due to the fact that the fraud will be undeniable. If that is true, the courts will find this as so, they won’t deny it. They can side-step the Quo Warranto, maybe, but the lawsuits can not be dismissed.
They will hear the evidence and they will not be able to ignore it. So they will certify the fraud by the hands of China and Iran among others. This is enough, they can go further, there is a down ballot precedent, but to certify the foreign theft of the election is enough.
But the people must respond. If they don’t, as Adam notes, nothing will happen. All of the evidence has not even been released yet. Trump is going to start motivating the public with his rallies, there is the documentary that will be seen by most, the Quo Warranto and 3+ lawsuits will all be in the news regardless of what the MSM try to display it as.
But the key is the down-ballot fraud. The down ballot fraud may be very large based on the common anomalies in every precinct inspected by Dr. Frank. Many states (~10 ) are already looking at doing an audit on the elections. If there is a large down ballot fraud conducted by our enemies China and Iran, with all of the above and the down ballots and all of the presidential fraud is certified by way of the lawsuits, do you really think people will still do nothing?
We are not there yet, and we may never be there. But if what I suggest above occurs, and it is likely that it will, the people will either respond or there will be no need as they are already overthrown.
/1
Adam, is 100% correct in his comment the USA election will not be reversed even if election fraud is proven. Unless you can get Biden impeached over this. That would mean you would need 25 Democratic senators plus 50 GOP senators to convict him. Never mind you need the US House which has Democratic Majority to Charge him. You would need the Demorcatic Speaker of the House to Peolsi to agree to bring a vote to impeach the Democratic POTUS Biden.
People maybe incensed and maybe enraged but whether anyone likes it or not this is not happening. Courts can not kick out a sitting POTUS including the Supreme Court.
I don’t know how to prove to those who believe it is still possible to change the results of the 2020 election that they have misunderstood the mood and wishes of the American people. About half of them know the election was fraudulent. But I am certain in my own mind that very few of them wish to overthrow the Biden administration by force. And that’s what it would take.
It isn’t possible. Unlike our heroic ancestors of 1776, I don’t think Americans of today are willing to overthrow an estabished government, whether on the Federal, state, or even municipal level. They are willing to vote their conscience at the polls. But once the established authorities, such as the state governors, the state secretaries of state, the Congress, etc., certifiy the results of an election, the people submit to what the established authorities say was the electoral results, even when they know in their hearts that the election was a fraud. Conservative, tradition-oriented Americans are just not comfortable with the idea of an armed revolution. And it is conservative-minded, tradition-minded Americans by and large who voted for Trump. They also know that the left and its armed militias, BLM, Antifa, and several others, certainly will use force against any revolt from the right. And conservatives are not oriented towards fighting a civil war with these goons. They don’t have the battle-hardened militias that are both willing and able to fight the leftist militias. The few conservative militias that do exist are mainly composed of aging overweight men. When there were fights on the streets of Washington and other cities between the two groups, the black and antifa militias always one. Several members of the right-wing militia groups were severely injured.
As for the courts, relying on them to overturn the election returns is unrealistic. They had their chance to do that in the two months after the election, before Biden was inaugurated. But they absolutely refused. Many of the judges are Obama appointees, and fiercely anti-Trump, as their biased, hate-filled “Opinions” in defense of their rulings showed. But even the Republican judges are hostile to Trump. The supreme court even refused to hear Trump’s appeal. They rejected it without even deigning to attach an opinion justifying their decision. They declared that Trump had no “standing” to appeal the election results. THis was a unanimous decision. Outrageous arrogance. But there it is.
The judiciary is part of the ruling establishment in the United States. And that establishment was determined to oust Trump from the moment the 2016 election returns were announced, and they worked frantically, including by secret, conspiratorial means, to fix the next election to defeat him.
Most of the Republican establishment was just as determined to oust Trump as the Democratic establishment, although most were not open about it until after the Nov. 2020 election “results” were announced.
I don’t think there is any way that the Biden administration can be ousted until 2024. It would require a well-organized, united army to accomplish this. But as far as I can tell, the military has accepted Biden as the President. I don’t see any sign that the army leaders want to overthrow Biden, or any groundwell of enlisted men determined to to accomplish this. The military’s tradition is that avoiding any overt intervention in the political process and obeying the established civilian authorities –especially the President, whom the generals have always accepted as their “commander-in-chief.”
And the fact is that Biden is the President, even though he was put in office by corrupt means.
Way back in 1654, an English political philosopher named Thomas Hobbes wrote a book called “Leviathan,” which every American conservative should read. He pointed out that the people who rule beceause they have an army behind them, not because they were elected or otherwise legally entitled to rule.
As far as I can tell, the army commanders, like the civil service bureaucracy, have accepted the “official” results, believe that Biden is the lawful commander-in-chief, and they will obey him. The fraudulent election is a done deal , however galling and outrageous this is.
(3 of 3)
The consequence of this marbleized fraud throughout the hundreds of elections in likely every state(as seems to be supported by the early findings of New Hampshire) is that under close scrutiny, the simultaneous theft of these lower seats of Congress will become quite apparent. And after securing proof of a few such fraudulently stolen down-ballot-elections will quickly lead to calls for such analysis across the entire country. Assuming this is true, there could be dozens to hundreds of elections proven fraudulent and overturned or re-run – the courts could not cast aside the judicial precedence on this point relating to down-ballots.
And this is the greater context of the matter before the Judiciary. With so many lower elections being overthrown, could the presidency not be supported by this standard of challenge? And to Adam’s point about a lack of public outcry, the public could find their voice in such a moment as I have described, as it will be an ugly thing to consider and fundamentally contrary to the rights of the governed. But as Adam suggests, it will need great support of the public. But Trump is returning to his rallies and is supportive of the audits and lawsuits, and much is still to be learned over the next 2-3 weeks, I believe.
So there is no answer what will happen, as I suggested in a previous writing on this site, it is a constitutional crisis. Should the courts either judge the fraud real and do nothing or judge it false when the public can see things so easily for what it is, they will be adopting the lowest of standards to support a government contrary to this standard of “the consent of the governed” and a return to a standard of tyranny. I do not believe the Americans will continue their calm acceptance of such things. If I am correct, there could be a judicial resolution or a constitutional convention could be preferred, or some other tool of conduct to preside over the matter. But, I believe, a resolution will likely be made, these matters that I reference here are not nonsense in tomato soup subjects. They are significant matters with significant consequences of state and economy and rule within the US and beyond its borders.
I do not believe the American public has accepted the outcome of the election. I believe it is less accepted now than several months ago. But the truth of this point will prove decisive. As Trump stated in one of his many non-Twitter tweets recently, it is in the hands of the public what they will accept(close approximation of his statement). But, to Adam’s point, complacency will be the death knell of democracy in the face of such corrupt practices. Nothing will be corrected if every abuse of authority will be tolerated.
/3
(2 of 3)
This revolutionary standard of consent of the governed is the vehicle that ushered in the birth of the USA and the other Western Democratic societies of the modern world. It is the most fundamental of standards of the country’s founding. The relevance of this point of philosophical principle will become increasingly tangible to the public as the election fraud becomes too difficult to obscure and too pungent to avoid the smell of such rot – much as the Fauci emails have begun to afford the Covid scandal.
The election theft didn’t just steal the presidency, it overthrew the constitution and violated the founding principles stated in the Declaration as the nation is being dragged to a socialist re-founding. Now that being said, the court will still have a high standard to meet in reversing the election if the presidency and violation of the democracy was the full context of the matter, but it is still not the full context.
The election was fraudulent, and the presidency was certainly stolen, but it was not stolen in isolation. This is due to the fact that they needed the authority of holding all three branches to maintain their obvious fraud and Trump’s great victory had long coat-tails. By holding two they could control the third(judiciary) by threat of packing, if they do not control it already by other means.
/2
(1 of 3)
There is a lot of discussion as to both the how, as well as the how reasonable, it is to expect that Trump would be returned to office. Also who would have the authority and legal standing to judge an election illegal. I have written to some exhaustive degree on this topic elsewhere on this site.
That response was intentionally limited to the points I made, but there is, still, more to contextualize in considering this matter. The reality is that either the US election was rigged and fraudulent or it was legitimately based. No one can argue to me with any standard of reality that it was not fraudulent. So the question is what will the courts do.
As Linda and others have stated, the courts’ judgement seem broken apart from the landmass of reason and now spins adrift in the sea of opportunity and chance with regards to their judgements. With having made this comment, it should be taken to some large level of understanding that, though the courts are the reason Obama has returned to power, the courts have never actually supported the judgement that the their was no fraud.
In fact, I believe, it is very likely they will judge the fraud as both real and significant, else their departure from any logic would be too substantial to defend, even by a child, even by an idiot. But as I have stated before the remedy is where the challenge lies. But there is a corollary to this premise that I did not comment on before and I would suggest is a point of some significance. America is ruled by the contract between the people and their gov’t, this is the Constitution.
But there was a document that preceded the Constitution and that was the Declaration of Independence. This document references the right of the consent of the governed:
There is a lot of historical backstory to explain the significance here, but the idea of consent of the governed was a revolutionary concept. Up to this time of the American Revolution, nations were ruled by the standard of divine right – tyrants known as kings ruled almost all nations of the world at the will of a higher authority than men had input upon. And the men who were ruled over were little more than simple chattel whose lives and livelihoods were completely controlled by these kings(some nations more so than others).
/1
(1 of 2)
There is a lot of discussion as to both the how, as well as the how reasonable, it is to expect that Trump would be returned to office. Also who would have the authority and legal standing to judge an election illegal. I have written to some exhaustive degree on this topic elsewhere on this site.
That response was intentionally limited to the points I made, but there is, still, more to contextualize in considering this matter. The reality is that either the US election was rigged and fraudulent or it was legitimately based. No one can argue to me with any standard of reality that it was not fraudulent. So the question is what will the courts do.
As Linda and others have stated, the courts’ judgement seem broken apart from the landmass of reason and now spins adrift in the sea of opportunity and chance with regards to their judgements. With having made this comment, it should be taken to some large level of understanding that, though the courts are the reason Obama has returned to power, the courts have never actually supported the judgement that the their was no fraud.
In fact, I believe, it is very likely they will judge the fraud as both real and significant, else their departure from any logic would be too substantial to defend, even by a child, even by an idiot. But as I have stated before the remedy is where the challenge lies. But there is a corollary to this premise that I did not comment on before and I would suggest is a point of some significance. America is ruled by the contract between the people and their gov’t, this is the Constitution.
But there was a document that preceded the Constitution and that was the Declaration of Independence. This document references the right of the consent of the governed:
There is a lot of historical backstory to explain the significance here, but the idea of consent of the governed was a revolutionary concept. Up to this time of the American Revolution, nations were ruled by the standard of divine right – tyrants known as kings ruled almost all nations of the world at the will of a higher authority than men had input upon. And the men who were ruled over were little more than simple chattel whose lives and livelihoods were completely controlled by these kings(some nations more so than others).
This revolutionary standard of consent of the governed is the vehicle that ushered in the birth of the USA and the other Western Democratic societies of the modern world. It is the most fundamental of standards of the country’s founding. The relevance of this point of philosophical principle will become increasingly tangible to the public as the election fraud becomes too difficult to obscure and too pungent to avoid the smell of such rot – much as the Fauci emails have begun to afford the Covid scandal.
The election theft didn’t just steal the presidency, it overthrew the constitution and violated the founding principles stated in the Declaration as the nation is being dragged to a socialist re-founding. Now that being said, the court will still have a high standard to meet in reversing the election if the presidency and violation of the democracy was the full context of the matter, but it is still not the full context.
/1
When the yellow-vested, bitch-slappin’ Frogs make you look like a flock of sheep, you are in trouble. I do wonder whatever happened to the Founding Fathers’ posterity. They didn’t appreciate being being pushed around and lied to, and weren’t afraid to do something about it. Maybe they all immigrated to Hungary or Poland.
I wish I could explain the political-social to the tiny minority of Americans who think that it is possible to overthrow the Federal government . Once a President , Vice President, a majority, even a small minority in Congress, etc., have actually taken power, only a massive popular revolt can change the reality. That means huge masses of people filling the streets demanding change, as happened some years back in Egypt. I live in a fairly typical American small town that went heavily for Trump. But I see no sign of massive rage at the outcome, angry demonstrations in the streets, etc. In contemporary America, mob violence is part of the culture of the left, not of conservatives. Yes, half of the voters, maybe more than half if only those who were legally entitled to vote and who actually did vote are counted, voted for Trump. But aside from a small circle of MAGA diehards, Americans have accepted the result as final. All they want to do is cope with their present, day to day struggle for survival in a country with a declining standard of living, shortages of everything, high inflation, heavy deby loads on most fame, etc. Theoretically, that should arouse widespread popular indignation. But it hasn’t. Very, very few Americans who voted for Trump want to increase their misery with violence in the streets. Only a small minority of black radicals, Marxists and Islamists are inclined to do that. And they are on the other side.