JPOST reports
According to the Al-Quds report, the new US proposal consists of three points: ending settlement activity in the West Bank and freezing it in east Jerusalem; suspending the Palestinian bid at the Security Council to seek a resolution calling for setting a timeline for an Israeli withdrawal to the pre-1967 lines; and resuming the peace talks from the point where they ended last April.
Once again there is nothing in it for Israel. Israel is expected to yield on a number of policies without anything in return.
Israel should end the freeze on settlement construction in and out of Jerusalem and should take the position that the negotiations cannot be based on ’67 lines plus swaps. Israel should make it crystal clear that they will never agree to such borders.
Based on the last go-around, Israel was being slammed for rejecting peace because it didn’t accept such borders. Israel should make it clear that they want peace but not based on those borders.
Even China is calling for the deal envisaged by the US.
Peoples Daily reported:
He reiterated that Israel should cease immediately its settlement activities in the occupied Palestinian territories, including East Jerusalem, so as to pave the way for confidence building and the resumption of negotiation between the two sides.
I blame Israel for the fact that everyone shares this opinion. It can’t be written off to antisemitism only.
the phoenix Said:
I cant understand why Liberman doesn’t call in diplomats to state that position, after all its only words, its done all the time by other nations.
Jewish settlement in YS is legal and legitimate according to their own signed agreements, make them explain how their statements coincide with their signed agreements and declarations regarding “encouraging” that same settlement.
the phoenix Said:
I wonder if there is a connection between this fact and his/her views…perhaps we should call in this site’s expert for a consultation? 🙂
bernard ross Said:
You asked yamit, but if I may put in a word…
‘Dafuk barosh’ or ‘Dfukah barosh’ depending on the time line….
In english it is much simpler, grammatically…. ‘F****d up in the head’ regardless of the time frame… 😀
Fwiw, I would LOVE to see this structure blown to pieces, and during the recent gaza war, there were rockets landing in Jerusalem…
Well, wouldn’t this be a GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY to create an accident and be able to offer this bit of news to the world…. WITH A SMILE??? 😉
@ bernard ross:
I wish I could see it otherwise, but sadly, I agree with all your arguments.
It seems to me, from what I know, that the ones that ACTUALLY SAY the “verboten words” are the women in green headed by Nadia Matar.
Their slogan says very simply:
THE LAND OF ISRAEL BELONGS TO THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL
yamit82 Said:
Obama mini-me?
@ yamit82:
what are your thoughts on this ( 🙂 )
The Temple Mount is just a hill
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/a-herem-on-the-haram/
yamit82 Said:
did you notice that the pal BDS pursued sodastream to the Negev using the Bedouins as their excuse……HMMMM? YS, then Negev, then Haifa, then Tel Aviv……seems like they will always be able to find a reason to enter the next phase of grabbing the Jewish land that Jews dont want….or later the land that they do want.
yamit82 Said:
I miss your point but you miss mine….NO ONE…not even you …..speak the VERBOTEN words….. Jewish settlement in YS is legal and legitimate, the EU are liars. Now that’s what I call chickensh*t. there should be no surprise at current events.
yamit82 Said:
If its about security then BB is exactly the right PM to lead Israel. In fact, going on your evaluation, I would say that Israelis dont care about what land they get as long a s they are “satisfied” on security. Therefore, 67 lines with swaps, and some of Jerusalem would be optimistic and BB probably reperesents the best hope that the right have of getting anything.
yamit82 Said:
only the major blocks appear desirable to Israelis.. Therefore, the formula of getting only the land you live on seems the best to be hoped for.
yamit82 Said:
what ideology? I am not talking about ideology, I am talking about whether one is legitimate or illegitimate, moral or immoral. If you are illegitimate you dont want anything more than where you live, because you are already there, you have no motivation for more than yourself. Its like New Yorkers not caring whether California goes back to mexico. From what you say they would care more than Israelis. I think its a case of the Pals believing in their legitimacy and the Jews not giving a damn and being clueless. Shows how POWER is worth little without the WILL to use it and that WILL requires motivation.
@ bernard ross:
Wrap your head around this vision I just had.
It would be exhilarating to see Obama bow submissively towards Israel’s first Ethiopian-born prime minister.
Comment to yamit in moderation
@ yamit82:
In other words, if people are hit at the paycheck…the ideological
banner is put down, (if not switched altogether…).
This Saul Alinsky’ite technique has been applied very successfully by the bastard that has usurped the White House.
[I do not have the actual source right now (believe me I am not making this up), many dozens (if not hundreds) of top ranking generals and those in the high command were coerced into silence to cover up the Benghazi fiasco.
Withholding pensions (in other words they might cease living like “NORMAL PEOPLE” if they were to disobey)]
I agree entirely with Mr Ross comments (not to mention that I cannot argue like he does… 🙂 )
I hope, it would not be misconstrued as being arrogant (someone from diaspora telling YOU, who lives there, how things are…), but I do believe that, were the GOI truly a nationalistic one (THE LAND OF ISRAEL FOR THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL…, not to mention… THEY MUST GO!…), I believe that the residents of dimona would not be at odds with the “settlers”, and would not hold to the belief that “they took what rightfully should have been ours” …
Even a personal set back/ economical sacrifice would be viewed differently, for it would be “for the cause” , which at the moment, is sorely lacking.
But then again… I may be just an old fool that is living in an era that has charmed me from the moment I read and became aware of it… that just no longer exists…
http://youtu.be/awOALvb2scA
bernard ross Said:
Again you miss the point. There is the national collective then there are individuals. Polls reflect the national view but on the ground you will find most people apathetic… Israelis for the most part are not ideological and their main concerns revolve around mundane things like family, money and local concerns. There is not much belief in the national government and best to ignore them unless what they do effects us directly… Security above all else is the only thing that unites most Israelis that’s why few want to see a palis state or evacuation of settlements. No belief!!! But it’s not ideologically based for most Israelis….
@ bernard ross:
Not terribly sad the owner is in the Israeli left peace camp.
Call it a message from the Boss up there.
His business located in Y&S because of government grants and lower taxes and most of his employees are AAARabs from the area.
Symbolically it’s not fun but I don’t feel much pity for him.
So far, SodaStream has been dropped by major retailers across North America and Europe including Macy’s in the U.S. and John Lewis in the UK, which the BDS movement said was a product of its activism.
http://english.alarabiya.net/en/variety/2014/11/01/SodaStream-sorry-for-Scarlett-Johansson-ad.html
yamit82 Said:
good one 😛
yamit82 Said:
You have the power but you do not have the will. The WILL is ethereal, like “hot air” or faith. Without the WILL the power has proven to be worthless. Israel is plagued by the ethereal, by the “hot air” and yet you cannot see the POWER of the “hot air” even when it daily consumes Israels energy. You always argue about the “hot air” but are daily plagued with it.
yamit82 Said:
I am not merely talking about “the facts of the mandate and subsequent agreements”, I am talking about the concept of “illegal” and “illegitimate” for a Jew to live in Israel. Furthermore, I wonder how you can be so confident that the lack of belief in the legitimacy and legality of Jews living in Israel as having “NOTHING to do with educating Israelis on the facts of the mandate and subsequent agreements.” when it appears to be the elepant in the room or should I say elephant missing from the room. You cannot know because it has never been tried, whereas almost everything else has. How is it possible that how a Jew feels about his legality and legitimacy has nothing to do with his history and with agreements stating exactly the opposite. Not knowing these facts makes him feel illegitimate and illegal, a crook and a thief. Why would such a Jew have the WILL to impose his POWER towards repudiating the false “truth”? If he is illegitimate and illegal why would a jew fight to maintain that status? Furthermore, how does a Jew in Tel Aviv consider himself legal and legitimate? Is it by fact of being born there?
yamit82 Said:
Its not about legal arguments, its about NOT believing that jews are thieves or crooks, illegal and illegitimate squatters. This has been told to Jews for centuries and right now obama and the euros do the same and many Israels buy it. With such ideas there can be no WILL!
yamit82 Said:
very poor argument especially coming from you, who usually says the opposite. No normal people have returned to their homeland after 2000 years many as a result of torture and hardship. The single most fact about many of those ethnics you mentioned is Aliyah being a major event in their life. This is not normal for most normal people. The removal of zionism from the Jewish narrative has left a vacuum unfulfilled. There are too many Jewish narratives against zionism from the left and religious and this has sapped the WILL.
You have not dealt with my original question which is why the words cannot be said in Israel: that Jews in Israel are legitimate and legal. It is obvious that these words have POWER against Jews and obstructs their WILL. I could buy your narrative if I did not daily see all the pain brought to Israel and Jews as a result of this canard, which goes unchallenged in Israel. If these words cannot even be uttered why expect anything more than the current malaise. What would cause these words to be uttered by leaders of Israel both government and non government? He who cannot even utter the words should not be expected to engage in action.
This insane idea must have been hatched by Laverne DeFazio and Shirley Feeney.
bernard ross Said:
They are legitimate as long as we have the will and the power to impose our will if we don’t or can’t any argument you make is worth hot air no more or less.
I gave you some reasons (Not All) why there isn’t as much wide support in Israel as we would like to have and it has nothing to do with educating Israelis on the facts of the mandate and subsequent agreements.
People here are not concerned with history or legalistic arguments they are concerned with raising families paying bills and living in as high a standard of living as they can.. They are NORMAL PEOPLE.
yamit82 Said:
actually, the factors you mentioned having nothing to do with the fact of whether Jewish settlement in YS is illegal or illegitimate. One has to do with the basic rights of all Jews and the other about gov funding allocations. I am talking about knowledge and words and the absence of the two from the Israeli narratives. Teaching immigrants Hebrew without teaching them of the fundamental rights of Jews to live in israel makes no sense. The same exists in any country where city dwellers dont want money spent in the country.
Settlements in YS can be privately funded and even land grants given like the US Homestead Act. Those Jews brought to Israel should be thinking about the next Jews to come just like someone thought abut them. This is not an issue of someone wanting more of the economic pie, its an issue of jewish rights to exist and live in Israel.
the phoenix Said:
that is the conclusion, absurd as it sounds, that I have come to in the past 10 years.
the phoenix Said:
me too
the phoenix Said:
I agree.
However, I cannot understand why Israeli children do not grow up knowing these truths like the back of their hand. it’s almost as if there has been an intentional cover up of the truth that Jewish settlement in YS is Legal and legitimate. Why would any Israeli ever question that premise if they had been taught the truth? Why do we even have to call for educating them. If they knew they would be telling the diaspora that the claims of the euros and internationals are lies. Do you ever hear an Israeli leader calling the euros liars when they say the words “illegal”? Why is that?
If Israeli children are not being educated to the truth that Jewish settlement in YS is both legal and legitimate then who made that decision and why? This is a viewpoint that appears to have wings with both the extreme left and the ultra orthodox; did they collude to spread this propaganda? It is a dangerous perspective which makes young Jews feel like thieves and crooks.
@ the phoenix:
View from Dimona residents.
They resent settlements in Y&S because budgets that should have gone to immigrant towns founded 50 years or more ago are languishing and believe budgets should be applied to them first. Therefore there is little or no support from here and most if not all the veteran development towns in Israel who constitute mostly ME Jews, Indian Jews, Ethiopian Jews and tens of other ethnicity’s. Their complaints are well founded they have almost no political clout or lobby in the Knesset.
Nothing is simplistic as it seems!!!! If you want to get a real picture you must live here, gleaning bits and pieces from different media and internet sources don’t do it justice and you will invariably come away and prejudge based on incomplete pictures
@ bernard ross:
I have no official data, obviously, and I acknowledge the fact that I might be describing what the elephant looks like, while being blind and only holding on to his trunk…
BUT,
from my experiences (by telephone and in person conversations) as well as my gut feeling and intuition (hmm… Just realized how this might sound… Especially in view of the last skirmish between ‘ yous fours’… 😉 ) I really believe that the Israeli Jews (not to mention diaspora Jews) are not aware / clueless about historical facts.
I have forwarded eli hertz’s “this land is my land” (one of the links on the right hand side of the IP front page) to practically every one I know.
The reply, even from my Israeli friends is invariably +/-
“Wow, really interesting… I didn’t know that” … Or “I never looked at it this way”….
Truth be known, a few short years ago, this could have described me as well.
I believe that we must not cease to educate and repeat the same things again and again, for the ‘audience’ is always in flux and the message is never wasted.
yamit82 Said:
I am aware of these factors but cannot understand why it is neverr mentioned by the Jews. How is it possible for jews to know that the Euros legally declared the purpose of the mandate to settle Jews and then accept the words illegitimate and illegal. I am not even talking about taking any action, I am simply talking about stating the truth, exposing the hypocrisy and repudiating the libels IN WORDS. Are Israeli Jews aware of these facts and hypocrisy? why do they defend against allegations of illegal and illegitimate and NEVER mention that those words are lies from the very mouths of the liars. They can say the euros and americans are lying but we are too weak to do anything about it. At least say the words. Why dont Israelis say the words?
@ ArnoldHarris:
@ yamit82:
As hard as I can imagine, how such a phenomenon can exist, the fact remains that it DOES exist and even at ‘higher levels’:
Canada’s Irwin Cotler, would be one such example. Him being a true liberal (not an extreme left, fwiw) and having served as a minister as well as the attorney general of canada
His wife, ariela, is a sabra , and worked as a legislative assistant to Likud members of the Israeli Knesset from 1967 to 1979.
Go figure!
😉
ArnoldHarris Said:
Your father was a wise man. That’s probably the secret of your birth.
@ yamit82:
Yamit,
My beloved father, Max Harris, born in Davenport, Iowa in 1892 and who died in my home almost 87 years later, and whose yahrzeit I still observe, always referred to liberals as “bolsheviks”. My late mother, Amelia Jacobson Harris, born in Barrow-in-Furnace, United Kingdom in 1906, was one of those vaguely leftist liberals. How the two of them got together to give birth to me in 1934 must have been some social phenomenon that I never figured out. I suspect that the Jews of Bylorus from whence he was born had more common sense than the English Jews. But I remember that he never argued politics with her. He just stayed silent and went about his business.
In any case, I have nurtured a general contempt for liberals throughout most of my 80 years. So I never had to sit in anguish and ask myself how I could have been stupid enough to fall for anyone’s leftist liberal political bullshit.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
@ ArnoldHarris:
Possessing the ability to think helps immeasurably.
bernard ross Said:
Judaism’s Golden Rule: “Inequality dictates intolerance to those who demand equality – gays, Arabs, and leftists. Intolerance guards our cherished values”.
If, indeed, any values exist.
Yet when this benighted Earth ultimately spins off its axis and helplessly careens into oblivion, the final two inhabitants of the dying blue orb will be the indestructible cockroach and the Jew who votes for antisemites.
“Whoever controls the media, the images, controls the culture.”
Allen Ginsberg
Ted Belman Said:
Then when they look above your banner that says “There is no diplomatic solution” I’m sure they will not be confused!!! 😛
The title is a mantra only for hasbara purposes. We must separate peace from ’67 line plus swaps. In the minds of the west they should learn that rejecting these borders is not the same as rejecting peace and that in fact, it strengthens peace.
bernard ross Said:
You have to understand the underlying reasons for the mandate and subsequent treaties and agreements.
A- Competiton between the french and the British for hegemony in the region
B-Jew haters wanted them out of Europe England and France.
Once they got their mandates issued by an organization they helped to create and to finance they abrogated their own obligations under said Mandate partly for their own geopolitical and regional interests and partly to screw the weak defenseless Jews who became expendable to their interests. Stupid Jews never saw it coming and most wanted a state under the British commonwealth at the time almost never except a few were expecting or wanted and independent sovereign state. Many if most didn’t want one either.
I have been a long time confused. the internationals recognized the need to settle world Jewry between the Jordan River and the sea. There was no directive in the creation of the palestine mandate territory to settle arabs.
Why is it assumed that vacant land in YS, owned by no one, should go first to the arabs rather than the Jews when it was originally allocated to world Jewry and NOT arabs?
When did the parties decide to rescind this agreement with world Jewry?
When did the parties to the agreement substitute the arabs for the Jews?
When did Israel embrace this reversal of the written legal purpose behind the creation of the Palestine mandate ?
I keep searching for a record of that moment and am unable to find it?
Why doesn’t Israel AT LEAST claim the vacant land of C or at least settle Jews on it as declared in agreements.?
I wish someone could show me when the internationally legal binding documents were reversed, as I cannot find it.
Where are those oft touted jewish lawyers?
the phoenix Said:
Define PEACE!!!!
Never say never Once the American Caddie was the choice of well to do Jews now Most Jews prefer cars made by their good friends, the Germans.
Not a direct ans but I like it anyway:
Native Americans have a saying:
The bigger the liberal, the smaller the penis.
I believe the origin is Navajo, although it may be Semen-ole.
Guys, it can be done and here is how:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/186880
I’m getting tired listening to endless bullshit about peace in the Middle East, and especially about peace between Israel and the Jewish nation, on one side, and the two gangs — Hamas and Fatah, that have taken charge of the Arab communities around Gaza and in Shomron and Yehuda. There will never be any kind of long-enduring peace of any kind in the Middle East in general, and more specifically in Eretz-Yisrael.
I never have been interested in questions about peace, so long as any part of Eretz-Yisrael is controlled by entities other than the Jewish nation. In any case, nobody in the history of the world ever got control of any territory, or regained it after it was taken away from them, without winning wars for it, which means depriving one’s enemies of the means of reversing the Jewish national conquest.
For immediate defense needs, Israel must solidify its control over all the land of Shomron and Yehuda bordered on the west by the Jordan River, the Dead Sea, and the Arava valley down to the Gulf of Eilat. That can only be accomplished by continuous Jewish settlement and by outright annexation minimally of Area C, and tightening Israel’s grip on the Area B villages, which will help smash Fatah’s control by atomizing the areas they now control.
But in the long run, Israel will be compelled to retake the Sinai peninsula — at least as far as the Mitla Pass and the eastern shore of the Gulf of Suez — and at least the western highlands of Trans-Jordan and in the long run, the rest of that territory eastward to the Syrian Desert. And northward, Israel must ultimately expand its borders northward to the Litani River, and southward so that Israel controls both sides of the Straits of Tiran. Why?
Because even with limited immigration, the population of the rapidly-developing Jewish state doubles approximately every 35-38 years, which means that before the end of this century, Israel will be home to about 25 million Jews — irrespective of whatever fate for good or ill awaits the Jewish diaspora. And before any of you reading this regard that projection as impossible, just remember that the 600,000 Jews of the Yishuv who were led by David Ben-Gurion to national independence as the State of Israel in May 1948 have expanded more than ten-fold now, just 66 years later. To sustain such a population, to say nothing of future doublings, your descendants will need a lot more land not just for defense but also for urban and regional development, and for land resources of all kinds.
Does all this make me an imperialist? Call it whatever you want; but just take the land whenever you can and no matter what is necessary for the Jewish nation to keep control of that land. You wouldn’t be wrong to call all this the territorial imperative of the Jewish nation.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
Could not agree more with this title.
– It is a GIVEN that under Israeli dominance, there COULD be “peace”, almost à la
us-canada of sorts, IF the musloids come to their senses and accept the fact that they could truly benefit from such a situation (so many syrupy songs in Hebrew were written in anticipation of just such a scenario…)
-Being a realist, however, I find it to be a very safe bet to say that it just ain’t gonna happen!
Now, with that as an introduction,could somebody please explain to me what’s the worst case scenario that could happen, after the GOI grows a pair?
Assuming hypothetically that the GOI ‘comes to his senses’ and proceeds to do the right thing which is “THEY MUST GO! as well as THE LAND OF ISRAEL FOR THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL (OR, a NEW GOI…)
Yes, the bastard in the White House will be pissed. Ok..SO WHAT?
Is there a true danger that travel to Israel (tourism and commercial) will be completely halted? (Just as one example for the sake of the discussion)
And were that to be the case, it implies that Israel is NO LONGER an independent country as it MUST bend to endless political attacks which will only increase in intensity and frequency unless there is a strong opposing force to stop them and or reverse them (simple Newtonian physics)
Nothing, Nothing absolutely NOTHING for Israel.