The flames at Notre Dame Cathedral should remind Jews of the burning by that very same church of tens of wagonloads of the Talmud in the Middle Ages.
By Abraham Chicheportiche, INN
The mainstream media, even in Israel, is featuring in headlines “The Crown of Thorns and tunic of St Louis saved from Notre Dame fire.”
I do not like to do it, but sometimes it is necessary to remind some Jews of historical facts about antisemitism in France.
Many of you have certainly visited Paris or The Notre Dame Cathedral, but how many of you have seen the two statues at the main entrance of the Paris Cathedral?
These statues, known as “Ecclesia” and “Sinagoga”, represent the Christian theological doctrine of “Verus Israel” according to which the Jewish people are fallen and replaced by the “new Israel” represented here by a woman who stands with her head crowned facing the other woman represented who has her head bowed, blindfolded by a snake and holding in her hands the tables of the Law …you know, the Jewish people’s Torah.
Every year, millions of tourist flock to admire and photograph these statues, but do they really realize what they represent?
Theft, crimes and persecutions – those were committed in the name of Christianity?
We have entered the final phase of the redemption of Israel and of all humanity and it is truly regrettable to see some of our Jewish brothers saddened by this fire when this building represents in all its strength the exile of Israel and the will to replace us.
The Catholic Church became the official state religion of France at the conversion to Christianity of Clovis I, leading to France being called “the eldest daughter of the Church.”
The construction of Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris began in 1160. Construction was largely completed in 1260.
In 1240, in Paris, it was the same Catholic Church which had built the cathedral that held the famous Paris controversy in which the Talmud was tried for blasphemy against the church. There was no way the Jewish rabbis debating the Christians could win. Held at the instigation of Nicolas Donin, an apostate Jew converted to Christianity, he and clerics debated four rabbis, led by Rabbi Yehiel of Paris in the presence of King Louis IX of France.
Begun in 1240, the trial ended with the decree, out of the Notre Dame Cathedral, ordering seizure of all copies of the Talmud, that is tens of wagonloads, at least 10,000 handwritten voumes of holy texts (the printing press had not yet been invented) and then burning them on nearby Place de Greve in 1242.
Two of the rabbis, Rabbi Shmuel of Falaise and the Maharam Rottenberg, who participated in the debate are well known to us today through the prayers they composed and the elegies about the burning of the holy books which are still part of our liturgy.
But who was that Louis, King of France, who cooperated so willingly with the church?
Louis IX (1226-1270), grandson of Philip Augustus and King of France, was a king of the Middle Ages: a knight, religious, ascetic and hostile to the Jews.
In spite of the fact that this opposition worked to its own disadvantage, he opposed the lending activity of his Jewish subjects; he decreed laws against them and even finally ordered their expulsion.
Known today as St. Louis, he was very anxious to convert the Jews and encouraged the discussions between the synagogue and the Church to this end. At these theological disputes, it was hoped that some Jews would be converted, or at least shamed, and thus convinced unresolved Christians of the truth of Christianity and the baseness of Judaism.
There is reason to believe that Louis took no action to protect the Jews persecuted by so-called crusaders in 1236 in several provinces (Anjou, Poitou, Mançois, Touraine, Berry). When, in 1239, Pope Gregory IX asked the kings of France and Portugal to order the seizure of Jewish books for examination, Louis was the quickest and most zealous to obey. So 24 loads of Jewish books were burned in 1242.
The Talmud’s trial, also called the Talmud’s Burning, Paris Dispute or Talmud Controversy1 (Hebrew: ????? ???? Vikouah Pariz) is a major event in the history of the Jews and their relationship to Christianity.
So is King St. Louis a Saint? And what about his anti-Semitic measures?
King ‘Saint’ Louis was marked by a profound anti-Judaism of essentially religious nature. Louis IX, deeply Christian, did not like those Jews who refused to recognize Christ.
He condemns the Talmud! King St. Louis, moreover, does not like these people who constitute a foreign body inside the kingdom of France that he seeks to unify.
‘Saint’ Louis goes further. “Christians have a chief,” he said to himself, “it’s the bishop. The Jews have no one, so I must be the bishop of the Jews and punish them when they behave badly, but also protect them when they are unjustly attacked … ”
Still, Saint Louis was instead a persecutor of the Jews to the point of imposing on them, in 1269, the wearing of the rouelle (a piece of red felt or cloth cut in the form of a wheel, four fingers in circumference, which had to be attached to the outer garment at the chest and back), advocated by the Church which took this decision at the Fourth Lateran Council, in 1215. Saint Louis did not hesitate to apply it, especially for the sake of integration and forced conversion of Jews to the national community.
King St Louis was the instigator of the last crusades and massacre of Jews in the Holy Land.
France is in state of shock, the Christian world is outraged while muslims are rejoicing on social media.
Jews have northing to mourn.
And by way of comparison, was the world shocked when on Kristallnacht November 9-10-1938, 1000 synagogues were destroyed in flames by Nazi Germany, begining of the annihilation of the Jews of Europe?.
@ Bear Klein: Bear, I agree completely with this approach. I have known Catholics whom I don’t think were antisemites. On the other hand, I have attended Catholic services in which some of the speakers said things that I consider antisemitic. Once I attended a Catholic Easter service in which the priest started to say that Jesus “was killed by the Jews” and then corrected himself in mid-sentence and said “by the Romans,” (!), apparently trying to adapt himself to the Church’s changed position on this matter. Pope Paul VI had just ruled that the Romans were to blame.
Many Catholic nunneries and monasteries did save many Jewish lives during the Holocaust, mainly in France and Italy, but also at least a few in Ukraine. Both Angelo Giuseppe Ronal, later Pope John XXIII, and Montini (can’t remember his first name), who was later Paul VI, did save several thousand Jews each through their personal interventions. Roncalli personally ground out 10,000 fake baptismal certificates on the Vatican printing press and gave them to representatives of the Jewish Agency and/or the Vatican embassy in Budapest. They did enable several thousand Hungarian Jews to disguise themselves as Catholics and escape death. Roncallli later wrote to the King of Bulgaria and ordered him on pain of excommunication not to hand over the 20,000 Jews who were still alive in Bulgaria to the S.S. The King obeyed him and these 20,000 Jews were saved. All of the Jewish Agency representatives who visited Roncalli to ask for his helped had the impression that he was genuinely horrified at what the Nazis were doing, and was eager to do what he could to save lives.
On the other hand, the Pope, Pius XII, refused to see the Jewish representatives, and Roncalli told them that even he had been unable to make an appointment to see the Pope to discuss the Jewish plight, even though he was a member of the Papal staff. He hinted to his Jewish visitors, of course not saying so in so many words, that Pope Pius was an antisemite. Even at the highest level , good Catholics and bad Catholics.
@ Adam Dalgliesh:
I distinguish between the Church which granted has improved and individual Catholics.
My mother escaping from Austria during the Holocaust was saved by Nuns in Italy who help her find refugee and work as a seamstress.
I have known many Catholics while growing up and as an adult. Some of them very good people. Some of them Jew haters to the core believing as they were taught that Jews (as a collective) are responsible for killing Christ.
I visited a Catholic Church at the request of a good friend once for a celebration for his daughter. I saw things in the Church Service that smacked to me as anti Jewish.
My philosophy in life has always take people as individuals based on what they say and do. So I am open to people on a personal basis. @ Felix Quigley:
@ Felix Quigley:
@ Adam Dalgliesh:
I distinguish between the Church which granted has improved and individual Catholics.
My mother escaping from Austria during the Holocaust was saved by Nuns in Italy who help her find refugee and work as a seamstress.
I have known many Catholics while growing up and as an adult. Some of them very good people. Some of them Jew haters to the core believing as they were taught that Jews (as a collective) are responsible for killing Christ.
I visited a Catholic Church at the request of a good friend once for a celebration for his daughter. I saw things in the Church Service that smacked to me as anti Jewish.
My philosophy in life has always take people as individuals based on what they say and do. So I am open to people on a personal basis.
@ Adam Dalgliesh:
I distinguish between the Church which granted has improved and individual Catholics.
My mother escaping from Austria during the Holocaust was saved by Nuns in Italy who help her find refugee and work as a seamstress.
I have known many Catholics while growing up and as an adult. Some of them very good people. Some of them Jew haters to the core believing as they were taught that Jews (as a collective) are responsible for killing Christ.
I visited a Catholic Church at the request of a good friend once for a celebration for his daughter. I saw things in the Church Service that smacked to me as anti Jewish.
My philosophy in life has always take people as individuals based on what they say and do. So I am open to people on a personal basis.
@ Bear Klein: I agree, Bear. And we should not forget that the Cathedral was heavily “restored” in the nineteenth century, and much new sculpture, some of it antisemitic, was actually added to the Cathedral during this much more recent period. The notorious statues of “Ecclesia” and “Synagoga” were destroyed by the French revolutionaries, and then recreated exactly as they were in the Cathedral in the nineteenth century.
But we should also acknowledge the facts that the popes and most European Catholics have now repudiated antisemitism, (regrettably, not all of the Catholics in the Holy Land)and now Catholics are now being persecuted themselves by Muslim”extremists.” It is fitting for us Jews to show solidarity with all oppressed peoples and communities.
We should never forget the past, but forgive the innocent descendents of past enemies. Striking this balance is difficult, but it is the right path.
I have not got the full knowledge of these issues but I do know that the roots of Jew Hatred in the Catholic Church go deep and they were at the centre of Franco taking power (Masons, Jews, Communism was his cry) and of the Nazis in Germany also (Not so different to Spain and Franco). It was the same in Lithuania, Poland and Ireland. It was a common problem wherever the Catholic Church has a large following.
But the discussion has also showed the Hypocricy involved in the present and where people like Bear Klein have NOT defended the Christians of Syria and Iraq against Islam. Trump preelection knew that Saddam and Gadhafi should not have been removed since they were a bulwark against Islam (ISIS). In power and with the full power of the US State behind him, what did he do, he attacked Assad.
And the Zionist Establishment have totally followed US Imperialism.
The Christians are in total peril from the Jihad. And the Zionist Establishment follows today American Imperialism. As does Pope Francis but he has the added problem of being quite mad, a mad man!
By all means discuss everything of the past but do not cut it off from the present. Otherwise it becomes an academic discussion and does not “cut the mustard”!
Both the Christian Establishment (Pope Francis and his many Bishops in many countries) and the Zionist Establishment did not defend the Christians of Iraq and Syria in the only way possible, defend Saddam against the Invasion of 2003 and defend Assad against the Al Nusra, ISIL, Al Qaeda types.
Bear Klein has lots to say here but he still supports the Bush 2003 Invasion of Iraq.
There are horrific acts being done against Christians and Jews by Jihadists in many places in the world. Also we see some anti-Semitic Acts being done by the BDS movement which is also supported by some Christian groups. The terrorist acts against Copts, Christians in Nigeria and Church burnings in Europe are despicable.
What was done by Christians to Jews in the 12th & 13th century (not exclusively) was also terrorism. The Catholic Church was spreader and teacher hate of Jews that has prevailed with some until today. So one who wants to rid the world of evil should learn the lessons of evil. Those Christians pretending to be the friends of Jews should learn history and themselves spread the lessons of it and not tell Jews shut-up it is bad for you to dare reveal the lessons of evil.
Those turning their heads blindly to evil done to Jews, eventually find that it reaches their places of worship and homes. In Europe this is certainly sadly occurring as the Christians in France mostly ignored what the Jihadis were doing to Jews and now Christians are also being attacked.
Apparently the ability to read and comprehend what is written is in short supply by some regular commentators on this site. 12th &13th Christians certainly were anti-Semitic and apparently if one points this out in undisputed detailed they are not teaching the lessons of history but are to be attacked as pro terrorist. Then some can not get past themselves and actually learn history.
@ Bear Klein:
Bear, Tom said,
“This thread is very bad for the Jews. Please show some common sense and delete it, fast.”
He is absolutely correct; and if you had common sense, you would heed what he said. As I told Tom, though, common sense is in short supply on Israpundit.
Notre Dame may have burned due to an accident; and this is possible. What is undeniable, though, is that AntiChristianism has been rampant and increasing in the world. It is evil; but people like you have been attacking the victims and, by comparison, praising the terrorists. As Tom said, this is very bad for the Jews. You’ve dug yourself into a hole. Stop digging.
@ Tom W Harris:
I am sorry that Notre Dame burned down. It was very beautiful but what you are saying is that the anti-Semitic History of the Catholic Church should not be discussed? This is not fair discussion? We should sweep this under the rug? Which of the following do you wish under the rug of history? Please tell me.
Valerie Sobel wrote the quoted part.
Edgar–Full disclosure. I found an article on the Free Library” site on the internet (https://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+antisemitic+origin+of+Michelangelo%27s+horned+Moses.-a0206478240) which supports your view that the horns on Moses’ statue by Michelangelo are intended to deomize him, and reflect a long Christian tradition of demonizing him.
However, I still maintain my position that Christian iconography always treated Moses respectfully, and that Michelangelo, in particular, had a very high opinion of Moses, and respected Jews. Christians always exempted the Old Testament prophets and patriarchs, plus King David and the Maccabees, from their hostility to Jews since the time of Jesus. But a careful analysis of the Jewish figures in the Sistine Chapel painted by Michelangelo by a recent art historian (I will look for his article on the web) led me to conclude that Moses also admired the Jews of his own day , even though this was unusual for a sixteenth century Christian.
I also believe that the Vulgate’s description of Moses with horns on his head as he descended the mountain was not intended to demonize him, and that most Christian readers understood this. The Tanach describes horns on the altar of the the tabernacle, as described in the Book of Exodus, which was constructed under Moses direction and according to his specifications. The altar on in the Temple courtyard also had four horns, and criminal suspects had a right to grip the horns as a way of avoiding being killed by an “avenger of blood,” and being granted a fair trial. Probably, Jerome’s interpretation, which followed the one found in one of the Jewish Targums, (Targum Onkelos, I think), was probably that Moses himself was like an altar of God, that one could go to him for justice and mercy. Maybe also, that he had offered to sacrifice his own life to save his people. The more literate and sophisticated readers of the Vulgate, who included Michelangelo, probably also understood Moses’ supposed horns this way.
Edgar–This is a genuine question and not argumentatively intended. Does Rabbi Trachtenberg specifically identify any of the the gargoyles on Christian cathedrals and churches, which were on the roofs, and had the specific practical purpose of acting as drainpipes for water on the roofs of these structures, in addition to their iconographic meanings, as hostile depictions of Jews? I know that there were many such depictions of Jews in books, but I am less certain about the antiemitic images on the gargoyles. Thanks for providing me with information of this subject.
@ Adam Dalgliesh:
Adam-be sure I don’t take it that way. I strongly doubt that you could ever be offensive-even if you tried….. I was merely pointing out the amount of reading I’ve been lucky to have allowed to do on almost everything we are interested in. I had a unique opportunity of just being able to read -not study exclusively but- read read and read. . I still have a large collection of documentation which I intended to use in a book exposing Christianity, but other more important things intervened..
This was all collected long before Wiki came on the scene.
I note your point about Louis the Pious. He was an anomaly indeed, but HIS Jews (and the benefits derived to the community as a whole) were all “merchants” attached to the Palace. He later gave control of his Jews to the some Emperor..which became a disaster. Even during his reign there were outbreaks against the Jews. Bishop Agobard (of whom I’ve read much) was a notable Jew hater. ( It was to him a Bishop wrote that he’d found so many Jews in The Holy Land that they crowded out the far fewer Christians).
Too much to go into and I’m tired. But your points are well taken.
@ Arthur Wellesley:
I thank you for your information-which I appreciate. But as you see, on certain points I tend to disagree. This comparatively recent “push-back’ about gargoyles never representing Jews, is a form of Political Correctness (I addressed this earlier) which was not present at the time the gargoyles were commonly associated with Christian attitudes towards Jews. The most detailed and respected book on the subject is The Devil and The Jews by Joshua Trachtenberg whch although written in the mid 1940s is still the “go-to” book today. The cover depicts a Satyr style figure with 3 goats horns, and representing both the devil and the Jew. It’s a short distance from devils to the grotesque, and association with Jews, who were being accused of all evils possible.. including poisoning wells, kidnapping Christian children for their blood in devilish ceremonies …. often worshipping the Devil and etc. Gargoyles may be imaginary figures but so are the accusations against Jews. If you have been reading this site you will have seen that I was subjected to a “horn search\’ (in about 1948-9-50). Also the that Jewish babies are born with forked tails amputated at birth . This has been partly confirmed by Adam whose friend had a similar experience.
So be as benign about gargoyles as you wish, (I don’t mean the birds and beautifully formed animals -these were decorative) but as far as I am concerned they eventually became associated (as junior devils) representing Jews.. The history of Jews throughout Medieval Europe of far to voluminous to negate it by picking out a few “special” cases. Remember we are not speaking about “now” and what Wiki says.
We are speaking about “then” and what history says….
Castile before Isabella did not mean safety and sanctity. Rulers were afraid of the (malign) influence the helpless Jews had with the common people. For example it was a practice to hire a Rabbi or learned Jew to (urinate sometimes) pray over the newly ploughed field and bless it for a good harvest) The 4th Lateran Council in 1215 laid down specific “Jew-Laws”.(there were Jew-Laws in Iberia from about the year 350) Kings, Bishops and Cardinals were fighting one another for the revenues collected from Jews. etc. Jews were “USED” for specific purposes….some of the more able were allowed to become wealthy, therefore influential , the rulers, products of many generations of inbreeding were not often very bright, fighting off brother claimants etc and needed intelligent help with no strings attached. The Jew was the perfect choice.. (Please recall that although not so far mentioned on these pages… the Jew had NO country and was the PERSONAL POSSESSION of the ruler).They always fell (or forced out) when the need arose (politically, religiously or financially) to destroy them . There were pogroms and executions, forced conversions etc. in Portugal even before and during that time.
Jews were NOT celebrities…people didn’t line the streets and squares to cheer them passing….except to their executions. True… there WERE a few (only relatively) bright periods but rare and far between. Merely “lulls”. And always as far as I’m concerned. so that the rulers could make the usual use of them. The official relationship between Christians and Jews has always been a twisted and tortuous one, with Christianity always expecting to convert them to the “True Faith” and also…following a dictum that 444,000 must be saved for certain eschological reasons- the time of which was unknown, sometimes dimmed, but always there…
I’ve written enough on this subject now.
Unbelieveable news! This just in from Arutz Sheva:
Even later report-President Porushenko had conceded to Zelensky. I guess present-day Ukraine isn’t so antisemitic after all.
@ Edgar G.:Edgar, I in no way, shape or form wish to disparage your learning, which is obvious to all. But I do wish to point out that I am an equally voracious reader since early childhood, and that one of my special interests has been the Jewish-Christian relationship. While the books I have read(I can’t remember all the titles) do fully bear out that Christians demonized the Jews. But it also presents a more mixed picture than what you think. Despite the church’s relentless persecution of the Jews,
Some Christian rulers, most notably Charlemagne and his son Louis the Pious, protected and even favored Jews, and absolutely refused to allow the Church to persecute them. Both of these kings had Jews among their personal advisors and high officials. Louis even refused to fire one of his senior officials when he converted to Judaism, even though this inforiated Church leaders. Yet he considered himself, and was considered by the people of his realm, to be a devout Christian, as his name suggests.
Although the Spanish kings, beginning with Ferdinand and Isabella, ultimately joined the Church and the Inquisition in vicious persecution of the Jews, for about 300 years (1050 to 1350), the kings of Castille protected the Jews from persecution, and allowed them to prosper, worship freely, and even build large and beautiful synagogues throughout their realm. For example, the present Cathedral of Toledo was the Great Synogogue of Toledo befor the church succeeded inseizing it in 1392. In fact, right up to the reign of Ferdinand and Isabella, most of the Spanish kings tried to protect the Jews, and even had some pogrom instigator s put to death. They had incresing difficulty doing this, however, as the power of the Church steadily grew and the monarchy weakened due to civil wars. the Church was able to ramp up persecution, until they succeeded in putting “one of their own,” the Catholic fanatic Isabella, on the throne.
In Poland, too, a whole series of Polish kings welcomed, even encouraged, Jews to settle in their kingdom, granted them land, the right to live anywhere in their realm, the right to work in all business and professions, and complete freedom of worship. Jews prospered for centuries in Poland, despite the incorrect belief of many Jews that all Poles are and have always been antisemites. Eventually, it is true, the church succeeded in increasing hostility to Jews among the Polish population, and instituted persececutions of Jews, beginning in the 18th century.
There is also abundant evidence that many “ordinary” Christians never bought their own Church’s antisemitic hate propaganda. In many European countries, including Poland, personal friendships between Christians and Jews, and business partnerships between them, were common, even though the Church attempted to forbid them. After the defeat of the Nazis, this trend resumed in many European countries.
It is widely expected that the Ukrainian people will elect a Jew in the elections schduled for next week, despite the antisemitic history of Ukranians, going back to the seventeenth century. Some ordinary people there, and elsewhere in Europe, have changed their mind about Jews.
@ Adam Dalgliesh:
European churches and cathedrals were almost invariably built on pagan holy places-, whether sacred groves or Greek/Roman temples. Maybe synagogues too, although there weren’t too many of those.
Gargoyles are not and never were the medieval concept of Jews- too powerfully sculpted, if you think about it. They actually represent the old gods turned into stone, forced to watch their former congregants forever worshipping the ‘true deity’.
@ Adam Dalgliesh:
Adam whilst I agree with, and accept part of it…….well it was the Pope who picked Moses, and it was only a part of a facade of a variety of biblical figures. Julius died before it was completed and the concept never turned out the way it was planned..
{(I apologise Adam for seeming to be a “know it all”..I am not..but for at least 50 or more years I’ve read from about 10-16 hours almost every day. There’s very little of interest to people like us that I haven’t come across. In Victoria B.C. for 10 years (about 2000-2010) at least once “or more” a week I would take out 2 full shopping bags of books each time.(+- 20 books). This was/is MY obsession (I have 7000 books of my own, too) I devour books…. until I exhaust the subject..)}
Michelangelo himself was described as an ascetic. I read 2-3 biographies of him some years ago and he was portrayed as an extremely devout Catholic on a par with the early Church Fathers. So that tells us what HE thought of Jews.. With the Moses, he was just carrying out a commission. This is the way it seems to me.
The experience of your friend confirms my own account of such an event..
{Have you had indigestion from the matzoh yet. I always get enough to last 6-7 months. although many regard it as a hardship…10-7 years ago I could get it for $1 a box and ate it all year}.
I hope you find that book. It’s a soft cover and on the front is a picture of a leering satyr-like figure with 3 goat horns and heavy legs down to the knees… leaving an implication of hooves and a tail. supposedly the Devil.
Wikipedia also contains this interesting quotation from Georgio Vasari, Michaelangelo’s biographer and boyfriend (they were gay):
@ Edgar G.: Edgar, this selection from the Wikipedia’s account of Michaelangelo’s stature of Moses also provides useful information about the background of the horns on Moses head in this as well as other statues of Moses:
Edgar–I will certainly try to obtain a copy of Joshua Trachtenberg’s book. I have long been aware, in any case, that Christians for generations believed that Jews were devils or at any rate in league with Satan. It is quite likely that there are some who still do.
I have also heard from another individual that someone once wanted to touch her hair to see if she had horns under it. Since this happened to my friend when she was a college student and she was on a date with this guy, I just assumed that he wanted an excuse to stroke his date’s hair. However, my friend June, now a published novelist with many books to her credit, is convinced he really though she must have horns because she was Jewish.
However, I am quite sure that Michaelangelo’s statue of Moses was intended to honor Moses, not portray him as a devil. For one thing, the staue was erected on the tomb of a recently deceased Pope, and was clearly intended to honor the Pope by comparing him to Moses. If Michelangelo really wanted to depict Moses as a devil, he would also have been suggesting that the late Pope buried under the statue was a devil, too. And then they would have destroyed the statue and possibly put Michelangelo to death.
The Chuch did profess to admire and respect the pre-Christian Jewish prophets , and even the pre-Christian king sof Judah. In fact, there were statues on the cathedral facade depicting the kings of Judah from David to the last king, Zedekiah–all of whom, according the the New Testament, were ancestors of Jesus. The church contended that the Jews who lived during and after the lifetime of Jesus, and who refused to acknowledge him as the Christ (Greek for “Messiah”) and Son of God, were evil and diabolical. But they professed to revere the prophets and Kings of the Hebrew Bible, which they call the “Old Testament.” They still profess to reveal these personages. In addition, they revere Judah the Maccabee, or Judas Maccabeus as they call him, even more than Jews do. The two “Books of Maccabees, the most detailed telling of the story of the sons of Mattitiyahu (Matthias in the Catholic Bible), are in the Catholic and Greek Orthodox Bible, but are not included in the Tanach.
I find the discussion about Moses “horns” to be quite fascinating. Is it possible that Michelangelo was pandering to his audience/benefactor despite not personally vested in prevailing antisemitic views?
As to the issue of providing some historical context to the significance of the burning of NDC, I think it appropriate. It is just another opportunity to provide an opportunity to those willing to learn- even if it causes discomfort.
There are cretinous individuals amongst us that have little knowledge except what can be garnered from the self-edited Wikipeda.
For instance …who but the abysmally ignorant would not know that Paris was declared an “Open City” not long after the beginning of WW2 and suffered almost no damage.
@ Michael S:
Having thus far seen such an effort here to dishonor Notre Dame de Paris, and the people who built her, I thought to do some research into the construction of this and other marvelous structures of their time. Some items of note:
1. Notre Dame was modest in dimensions, compared to some other cathedrals built during her time. If anything is truly remarkable about her, it is that she has survived so well until now — especially during WWII, when many of Europe’s finest cathedrals were destroyed by Allied bombing.
2. A comparable structure was Old St. Paul’s in London, which lost its spire to a fire in the 16th Century, and was burned completely a hundred years later. The spire fire was not lit by arson or terrorist activity; but the cause was an “electrical fire” just like the Paris church, caused by lightining. Jews may be intersted in some notes on its reconstruction:
“In addition to cleaning and rebuilding parts of the Gothic structure, Jones added a classical-style portico to the cathedral’s west front in the 1630s, which William Benham notes was “altogether incongruous with the old building … It was no doubt fortunate that Inigo Jones confined his work at St Paul’s to some very poor additions to the transepts, and to a portico, very magnificent in its way, at the west end.”[51]
“Work stopped during the English Civil War, and there was much defacement and mistreatment of the building by Parliamentarian forces during which old documents and charters were dispersed and destroyed, and the nave used as a stable for cavalry horses.[52] Much of the detailed information historians have of the cathedral is taken from William Dugdale’s 1658 History of St Pauls Cathedral, written hastily during The Protectorate for fear that “one of the most eminent Structures of that kinde in the Christian World” might be destroyed.[53]
“Indeed, a persistent rumour of the time suggested that Cromwell had considered giving the building to London’s returning Jewish community to become a synagogue..”
— https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_St_Paul%27s_Cathedral
3. Probably the greatest significance of Notre Dame, is that she is representative of the “Gothic Cathedral Period”, the flowering of Western European civilization. To show the significance, here is a timeline of world history: The roughly 6000 years of recorded history can be divided into six parts:
A. The lifetime of Adam (who died somewhat before Noah was born)
B. from Noah’s birth until Abraham
C. from Abraham until King David
D. from King David until the “Common Era” and the fall of Beit HaMikdash
E. from the fall of Beit HaMikdash until the Crusades, Maimonides and the period of Gothic cathedral constuction (including Notre Dame)
F. from then until now.
Notre Dame thus represents not just a chapter in Western Civilization, but an entire era. It is not just a symbol of Catholicism and Christianity, but a symbol of everything that is hated and attacked nowadays by the Muslims, and the Left — everything, that is, except the Jewish people. (The latter have their own “cathedral”, Beit haMikdash, which is yet to be rebuilt.) I am unimpressed by all the billionaires, celebrities and politicians queuing up to donate for its repair. Neither, it seems, are the French people, who think the money would be better spent improving their lot.
4. In summary, Notre Dame Cathedral would have been a perfect target for terrorist arson, a veritable “European 9/11”. Ironically, it probably really was accidentally caused.
As for the gargoyles, they are an ancient pagan motif from during the Second Temple period. They were not devised by Christians to resemble Edgar.
@ Michael S:
The “cross-bearer” unable to contribute beyond quotations from his hateful creed, butts in where not wanted. An insulting, self-deluded, pseudo-comic of minute importance except to his inflated self. His unpleasant person may reach new depths….perhaps as far down as …say..Gehinnom .Well deserved, ready and waiting.
This will fit in nicely with all the historical revisionists here:
“The Times goes on to offer breathtaking details about Fournier and his team’s effort to rescue this important statue.
““As the chaplain began removing a statue of Jesus, he said, his colleagues were fighting the fire from the cathedral’s towers,” the Times reports. “With the statue in hand, Father Fournier, alone in the nave, gave a benediction to the cathedral, he said.”
“Great reporting. Captivating stuff. Except…
“There’s no statue of Christ in Notre Dame.
“No.
“Statue.
“So what happened? What was the Times talking about?
“The correction, added to the story later, finally solved the mystery: “An earlier version of this article misidentified one of two objects recovered from Notre-Dame by the Rev. Jean-Marc Fournier. It was the Blessed Sacrament, not a statue of Jesus.””
— https://www.breitbart.com/the-media/2019/04/20/nolte-new-york-times-believes-body-christ-statue/
Keep it up, guys! Especially “Gargoyle” Edgar G. Before this is over, we’ll be told that Maimonides built Notre Dame! LOL
@ Adam Dalgliesh:
Of course I meant Hag Sameah, Edgar! My computer prints whatever it pleases.
@ Edgar G.: Hag Sumach to you as well, Edgar, as well as to all our posters, and Ted.
ADAM…your comment provoked another thought in my mind. If a beam of light had been intended. it would have “sprayed” out from the narrow base to a wider coverage…like a fan-or any normal beam of light. You know what mean.
Oh…and Chag Pesach Sameach… both to you and all site posters-not forgetting TED..
@ Adam Dalgliesh:
You are mistaken I believe. Jerome, who wrote the Vulgate -the Catholic Bible- also went to The Holy Land and translated the Torah into Latin. He discussed this particular point (amongst many others) with learned Jews there, found that the word “Keren” (kuph resh nun) was mentioned in the Torah many times… animal horns, trumpets, mountain peaks and etc. but rarely for a beam of light. There were many other words commonly used for light, shining, beams of light etc. And from all accounts he was convinced that they were horns. And this became the solid belief of whole Catholic World. The beams” only came into the picture perhaps during the “Enlightenment”…to explain away such a ridiculous belief -suggesting it was a just a “poor translation”…. towards modern times. .
If you look at the statue, even a picture of it, you will see beyond question, REAL horns not “beams of light.”.
{Such could easily have been depicted by any sculptor (let alone a master) by a tracery of lines similar to those used by the Egyptians which are always present in any depiction of Akenaten.. They represent the rays of the sun each ending in a hand}.
The Septuagint scholars translated the word as “horns”…. And I have seen pointed out, that in by far, the most times the Hebrew word is used in the Torah it has been translated as “horns”.or pointed objects of some sort. .
Anyway.. again….. the “Devil and The Jews”.. should be available in any library. You will never need to read any other book on the subject. I wish you good reading…
@ Edgar G.: Edgar, the horns on the Moses statue are intended to represent the beams of light that are said to have descended on Moses from heaven, according to Jewish as well as Christian tradition. Michelangelo, unlike most Christians of his era, was very pro-Jewish and not antisemitic at all, as an art historian who examined Michaelangelo’s paintings in the Sistine Chapel Sistine Chapel has documented. The Last Judgment mural has a man with a yellow circle on his breast (which Jews were required to wear in sixteenth century Rome) among the blessed souls being sent to heaven by Jesus, while several Catholic cardinals who were known to Michaelangelo personally are being sent down to hell.
One of the Old Testament prophets depicted onMichaelangelo’s Sistine ceiling fresco is also wearing a round yellow “Jewish” badge. He is pointing downward at the throne wear the Pope would be seated when in the chapel. The implication was that the reigning Pope, despite his antisemitic tendencies, was of recent Jewish descent.
ADAM…Don’t forget Michelangelo’s statue of MOSES….complete with “horns”….I’ve actually seen this statue myself when in Rome. many years ago.
@ Adam Dalgliesh:
Adam I’ve never for a moment ever doubted your deep sincerity, and wish to learn and investigate.
There were NO tours of church and cathedral roof-tops conducted for children or indeed anyone at any time. It was such a well known belief that none was required. The monk, priest, and friar were all powerful, however illiterate and unlettered they were. They had the power of the Church behind them, and the people were abysmally ignorant and superstitious. But ..again…I refer you to;
“The Devil And the Jews” by (Rabbi) Joshua Trachtenberg..(the medieval concept of The Jew And It’s relation to modern Anti-Semitism). Further you can look up the term “Synagogue of Satan”….. and also something like.. “How the Jews came to be associated mentally and physically with devils and satyrs…..”(use your own terminology) You should get reams of info until your head reels….
Just looking up that one (best seller) well footnoted book will show you everything you want to know ..and a hell of a lot more . You will be disgusted.I believe. It was pure EVIL….
There are doubtless thousands of boos on that subject and have come across many chapters in books on other subjects. It would be like trying to look up the life and history of Napoleon Bonaparte, who has had more books published about him than any other book….. second only to the Bible.
Addenda; I’m sure I’ve mentioned on this site, my experiences in rural Ireland when I was on several occasions subjected to having my hat removed and my my hair rummaged through, searching for horn stubs. In one of these “events” I was also informed that Jews were born with little forked tails which were amputated at birth.
Another time I was told that Jews had to have specially made shoes so as to hide their deformed feet (hooves?)…..and MORE.
@ Adam Dalgliesh:
@ Edgar G.:
Thank you both for the history lessons.
Edgar, what is the evidence that the Gargoyles on the Cathedral facade were meant to images of Jews? Where did you find this claim? I am interested for genuine scholarly, not argumentative reasons. I have not read that before.
To me, the gargoyles just look like fanciful sculptures of monsters, perhaps made for entertainment, especially of children. Remember, there was no no TV , no internet, no comic books, not even illustrated books that the average person could afford. There were no art museums, except for the art in churches. For most people, the churches were the only source of entertainment and escape from their dreary, miserable lives. The funny faces on the gargoyles might have given them some comic relief.
I think Adam is wrong…Popes can condemn all they want..but it’s just words from what has been long regarded are a mere man dressed for a pantomime. The pope’s words mean almost nothing. Today there is strong opposition to popes who say anything good about Jews. But when Edgardo Mortara was kidnapped by the cursed priests sent by the pope, Montefiore went to Pius 9th and waited for many months for an answer. The pope ignored him completely..
I agree with Ted wholeheartedly, and would go a huge step further and express sorrow that the damned sepulchre was not demolished hundreds of years ago.
The closest connection of Notre Dame with Jews is their effigies in hundreds, at the top end of rain-water pipes, and at the peaks of cupolas and belvederes, decorating parapets and eaves and etc. I referred to this recently when mentioned Joshua Trachtenberg’s definitive and highly acclaimed “The Devil and The Jews”…
They are all shaped like the Christian concept of devils. Each with his barbed tail, cloven hooves and gnomish features, all chins and noses. Sometimes just animal snouts. Satyrs Incorp. likely supplied the manpower free. These were what Christians believed Jews were actually like. Learned from their “good” book that should have been immolated along with a goodly leavening of Catholic clergy..
I don’t know why it wasn’t up in flames long ago. For instance during the Revolution it would have made a nice flambeau to toast the clergy in.
I know all about Lustiger….For me …he was just another meshumad……..
I think Adam is wrong…Popes can condemn all they want..but it’s just words from what has been long regarded are a mere man dressed for a pantomime. The pope’s words mean almost nothing. Today there is strong opposition to popes who say anything good about Jews. But when Edgardo Mortara was kidnapped by the cursed priests sent by the pope, Montefiore went to Pius 9th and waited for many months for an answer. The pope ignored him completely..
I agree with Ted wholeheartedly, and would go a huge step further and express sorrow that the damned sepulchre was not demolished hundreds of years ago.
The closest connection of Notre Dame with Jews is their effigies in hundreds, at the top end of rain-water pipes, and at the peaks of cupolas and belvederes, decorating parapets and eaves and etc. I referred to this recently when mentioned Joshua Trachtenberg’s definitive and highly acclaimed “The Devil and The Jews”…
They are all shaped like the Christian concept of devils. Each with his barbed tail, cloven hooves and gnomish features, all chins and noses. Sometimes just animal snouts. Satyrs Incorp. likely supplied the manpower free. These were what Christians believed Jews were actually like. Learned from their “good” book that should have been immolated along with a goodly leavening of Catholic clergy..
I don’t know why it wasn’t up in flames long ago. For instance during the Revolution it would have made a nice flambeau to toast the clergy in.
There are certainly good reasons for Jews to point out the historical persecution of Jews by the French Catholic Church, and the fact that the Cathedral of Notre Dame, magnificent as it is, was built during a time when Judaism was being persecuted and almost banned in France. The outrageous burning of hundreds of precious copies of the Talmud did indeed take place in the vicinity of Notre Dame cathedral.
On the other hand, we Jews should also keep in mind that the present Pope, and a series of recent Popes beginning with John XXIII (1958-63), have repudiated the Church’s long history of ant-Semitic persecutions, and have sought to make what amends they could. Pope John Paul II,shortly before he passed in 2004, even prayed at the Western Wall and put a letter in its cracks, an old Jewish tradition, begging God and the Jewish people to forgive the Church for the many centuries of persecution.
Senior French churchmen have also repudiated the Church’s antisemitic past. During World War II, theCardinal- Archbishop of Paris exposed the Nazis extermination of the Jews from his pulpit and urged his fellow Catholics to hide Jews. Some French Catholics, including monastic orders, did hide Jews from the Nazis. More recently, in the late twentieth and early 21st century a Catholic priest who was born Jewish, and whose father was murdered at Auschwitz, served as Cardinal-Archbishop of Paris for many years. He passed away a few years ago; his name was Lustiger. He was a staunch friend of Israel.
Now that Catholic churches throughout France are being desecrated and burned by jihadists, it is the right thing for Jews to show solidarity with the Catholics, now that they have joined us as victims of Islamist persecution.
Also, remember that Menachem Begin said that one of the reasons he ordered the IDF to invade Lebanon in 1982 was to rescue the Christians from genocide at the hands of Hezbollah and the PLO.
@ Tom W Harris:
While most writers and commentators are singing the praises of Notra Dame, it is quite in order for Jews or others to point out the negatives.
@ Tom W Harris:
I agree, Tom; but common sense seldom prevails here in these matters.
This thread is very bad for the Jews. Please show some common sense and delete it, fast.