By Ted belman
The bill is aimed at giving equal weight to the principles of Israel as a democracy and as a Jewish state.
“The right to national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people,”
“The State of Israel is a democratic state, founded on the principles of freedom, justice and peace, in accordance with the vision of Israel’s prophets, and upholds the individual rights of all of its citizens according to the law.”
When the Knesset says these values are equal. where does that leave the law. Does that mean that future legislation must satisfy both or that the courts can choose what value to uphold?
I wanted the provisions making Israel a Jewish state to be inviolable or at least to have a higher value. I don’t know how this equal thing will work in practice.
The Elkin version reportedly defined Israel’s democracy as subservient to its Jewish character and demoted Arabic from its status as an official language.
@ yamit82:
If I were a betting man (which I’ve told you fifty times, I’m not; yet even if I were), I could come up with the dollar. I’m not ‘penniless’; my money is spoken for.
And YOU would be well-advised to not bet against a sure thing
Because you absolutely WILL lose this one, just as sure as God made little green apples. If I elect to seek citizenship, it will be strictly as a Jew
— and it will be granted.
And neither you — nor a thousand cloned clowns just like you — will have a damned thing to say about it.
@ SHmuel HaLevi 2:
Apparently one of us is.
— The Thought Police are on the prowl, and you are evidently asleep at the switch.
Learn what ‘subject’ — and for what reason?
And why would one wish to be informed on the subject of “state religion”? What is its connection to the ongoing discussion of a Jewish state?
Have I asked you ‘why’ you are Jewish?
What I HAVE instead asked you is a number of quite RELEVANT questions in the two earlier exchanges. So far, however, you’ve been content to ignore them altogether.
dweller Said:
I got the donut but I don’t believe you can come up with a dollar….. : don’t make bets you can’t back up when you Lose !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 😛
@ dweller:
CAUSE I’M A JEW… written by Country Yossi
The lyrics:
CAUSE I’M A JEW…
I wear a kipa on this head of mine.
I daven mincha in the proper time.
and by havdalah in my pockets I put wine
cause I’m a Jew I do that too.
I put my sh’lok down when it starts to rain.
I shake a lulav, which my neighbors think insane
I like to bury my gefilte fish in chrein
Cause I’m a Jew I do that too.
Chorus:
Cause I’m a Jew, cause I’m a Jew,
because the Torah tells me to I do that too,
I do the strangest things a man could ever do,
cause I’m a Jew I do that too.
I wear a kipa on this head of mine.
I daven mincha in the proper time.
and by havdalah in my pockets I put wine
cause I’m a Jew I do that too.
I put my sh’lok down when it starts to rain.
I shake a lulav, which my neighbors think insane
I like to bury my gefilte fish in chrein
Cause I’m a Jew I do that too………
Oh once a year I twirl a chicken over my head
and it wouldn’t be that bad if it were dead
and there’s a time when I go outside and burn my bread
cause I’m a Jew I do that too. ………………
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nI3ixj3IuqM
@ dweller:
Apparently you hard of understanding. Either you learn the subject or no dice. The list is recommended reading for anyone willing to be informed on the subject of every State religion identification.
And I do not explain, ever, why I am Jewish. Or what the parameters are. It is just the way it is.
@ SHmuel HaLevi 2:
I’ll do that right after you tell me the relevance of it, in view of the questions I asked you [above]:
Jewish by ethnicity/nationality?
Jewish by religion?
If the latter, then Jewish by whose assessment?
But the Torah [Pentateuch] does not define “Jewish.”
If I recall correctly, it never even uses the word, “Jewish.”
Even the term yehudim [“Jews”] scarcely appears much at all throughout all of the TANACH — and then, not until long after the Torah was written, long after the Torah was given:
— 900 years later (maybe more) — 2 Kings, 2 Chronicles, and of course Esther. That’s it, I think.
By YOUR ‘definition,’ could Avraham have been granted citizenship in the Israel of your dreams?
— Why, or why not?
@ yamit82:
And why would anybody believe you?
Fortunately (for everybody except you), better judgment than yours is dominant in these matters.
You will not — EVER — keep me from visiting my family when it suits me to do so
— regardless of HOW much dinero I bring with me, or how often I come, or how long I stay.
What’s more, my dollar to your donut says you will not keep me from making aliyah EITHER.
And if that frosts your coffee
— Mazal Tov.
@ dweller:
I suggest to you to visit the WIKIPEDIA listing of religions by state. Will talk after you do that.
As to being Jewish, I follow strictly Torah definitions. No other criteria. Not subject to discussion.
@ SHmuel HaLevi 2:
I’m sure you realize, SHmuel, that for the past six years & counting, it has been increasingly impossible to take the USA as an ‘example’ of ANYTHING it was constructed to be. The current occupant of the Oval Office has been sytematically trashing the Constitution in a hell-bent, wild attempt at “transforming” the country. And it’s anybody’s guess how much further he’ll go before that downward spiral ends — if it will end.
He’s using “prosecutorial discretion” to (unlawfully) protect 5-6 million illegal aliens from deportation for breaking the law to enter USA, and for breaking it again by remaining without congressional permission. And if the Legislative Branch lets him get away with this clearly despotic move by failing to defund the reckless measure — AND by failing to take him to court for it
— the whole concept of immigration AND citizenship in America will be UP FOR GRABS, and the US Constitution will henceforward be good for toilet paper and nothing else.
“Posting citizenship”? — I don’t understand the expression. Are you asking if anybody can become a USA president?
If the 2008 election is any indicator, YES. . . .
Is it supposed to be that way? — of course not.
Define “Jewish” in this context.
Jewish by ethnicity/nationality?
Jewish by religion?
If the latter, then Jewish by whose assessment?
As a point of reference, understand that the Balfour Declaration, the San Remo Resolution, and the Mandate Charter ALL clearly had reference to Jewish nationality.
Have I quarrelled with that proposition?
Of course. As I said above, there is assuredly no reason to grant nationality rights to those of non-Jewish nationality in a Jewish nationality state.
But you seem to have missed where Yamit was headed when he wrote of the need to “protect core values” — without identifying the values to which he alludes
— and in another place in the same post where he writes of the ability to “influence Jewish core VALUES” — as if according citizenship to gentiles could somehow influence those values (which he STILL has left undefined and unstated) merely by virtue of their being citizens.
Where YOU are speaking of rights, SHmuel
— HE is speaking of VALUES.
You are wearing the cap of a citizen; well and good.
But Yamit has got his El Gran Inquisidor hat on.
If you’ll carefully re-read the sequence of posts, I think you’ll see what I mean. . . .
dweller Said:
Just got an intuitive message from him and he confirmed you are his devoted servant and wannabe clone.
Good enough for me stay out of my country, unless you intend to come and spend mucho dinero. Sorry you ain’t got no dinero. 😛
@ dweller:
But, Dweller, one must study a subject before issuing comments.
There are many functioning States which specifically adopt certain definitions and limit those living in their confines that do not match specific requirements.
Take the US for example.
Can anyone living there, including posting Citizenship become President, etc? How many years of probation has an immigrant to go through before Naturalization?
In Argentina whose Constitution, Article II I believe, clearly defined it to be a Catholic Apostolic Country, can anyone become President and or even many other postings. The Military Air Force Academy did not accept Jews…
There are many more examples.
I demand to live in a Jewish country that provides special dispensations to Jewish people and while protecting minorities assure that they do not subvert our rights.
I will complete a full review of the majority of the countries and present the findings.
@ yamit82:
Yes, you certainly did. You said it’s a state whose citizenry is exclusively Jewish.
Well, of course; that goes without saying. But your primary concern appears to be “political rights where they are able to potentially influence the Jewish core values…”
Yet INFLUENCE is not strictly a factor of citizenship. It is a phenomenon made up of many sources, and which cuts across all sectors & strata of a society.
Maybe I do, maybe I don’t. Depends on what kind of agenda your remarks are alluding to. When I know with some clarity exactly WHAT “core values” you have in mind, I’ll be able to TELL you whether I “have a problem with that.”
Only Christ gets to decide who is (and isn’t) a Christian.
But thanks for the vote of confidence, . . . . turkey.
dweller Said:
dweller Said:
I didn’t define Jewish State now did I?
I didn’t say non Jews couldn’t live here with full personal and civil rights protected providing they are law-biding and not subversive but no political rights where they are able to potentially influence the Jewish core values and the Jewish nature of the country. Call them permanent residents almost full citizens. This is the same in most countries and even In America at least during waiting period of min of 5 years till eligible to become citizens. Every nation state gets to choose what the criteria is for citizenship. In Israel it should by necessity be for Jews. One might expand who is a Jew by the broadest inclusive definition but Jews they must be. Evey country has the duty and the right to protect their core values and Israel especially should not be an exception.
YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT christian????
@ yamit82:
Only if that’s how you define “Jewish State.”
Curious why you are writing me about a Pal State? If there is any confusion I am 100% against a Pal State. The world does not need another terror state, even if the EU and Obamites think it is a good idea.
@ Bear Klein:
The Pal state like the majority of Arab Muslims states will be an apartheid & fanatical state supported by the West.
@ SHmuel HaLevi 2:
OOOPS vote it seems postponed a week??? 🙂
BB getting cold feet as usual!!!! 🙁
@ yamit82:
I agree. Waiting to the weekend will do.
Netanyahu seems very self assured, no signs that he cares about either of them. Politically, they are done.
@ yamit82:
Typical israeli made in the Oslo mold political general.
Their “long term” strategy is predicated upon massive production of rubber bullets, paint balls and white flags.
Former Commander: Israel Made ‘Strategic Mistake’
http://www.defensenews.com/article/20141123/DEFREG04/311230014/Former-Commander-Israel-Made-Strategic-Mistake-
@ SHmuel HaLevi 2:
Sunday, November 23, 2014
Former Commander: Israel Made ‘Strategic Mistake’
Former Commander: Israel Made ‘Strategic Mistake’
Nov. 23, 2014 – 11:32AM | By BARBARA OPALL-ROME
http://www.defensenews.com/article/20141123/DEFREG04/311230014/Former-Commander-Israel-Made-Strategic-Mistake-
TEL AVIV — Israel’s latest Gaza operation illustrates the strategic
consequences of crossing that Clausewitzian-inspired line of culminating
deterrence, where tactical actions aimed at containing escalation ended up
dragging it into an unwanted war of attrition.
Failure to understand the logic of Hamas and other Gaza-based groups — what
Israel Security College authors termed “the otherness of the enemy” — led to
a breakdown of Israeli deterrence in the weeks leading prior to and during
the war, experts here say.
It was partially restored, experts here say, through three weeks of
punishing military action that compelled Hamas to finally accept the Aug. 26
ceasefire that ended the 50-day war.
“We made the strategic mistake of miscalculating enemy rationale,” said a
retired IDF senior commander. “While Hamas was preparing for war, we
understood it to be just another round.”
The fact that Israel got dragged into a war not of its choosing was a
fundamental flaw, the retired commander said. “We must never be dragged.
Wars are won at the beginning with very high-intensity initiating offense.
You can’t win wars by climbing steps.”
It all could have been avoided — or more properly planned — had the IDF
correctly assessed the consequences of its actions in the weeks prior to
Protective Edge, said the former IDF chief.
He was referring to Operation Brother’s Keeper, which began June 13 as a
mission to return three Israeli teens abducted and murdered by a terrorist
cell linked to Hamas. It quickly evolved into a major 15-day ground
incursion throughout the West Bank.
@ yamit82:
Todah. I’ll check it up at my in laws TV.
@ SHmuel HaLevi 2:
Sunday, November 23, 2014
Former Commander: Israel Made ‘Strategic Mistake’
Former Commander: Israel Made ‘Strategic Mistake’
Nov. 23, 2014 – 11:32AM | By BARBARA OPALL-ROME
http://www.defensenews.com/article/20141123/DEFREG04/311230014/Former-Commander-Israel-Made-Strategic-Mistake-
TEL AVIV — Israel’s latest Gaza operation illustrates the strategic
consequences of crossing that Clausewitzian-inspired line of culminating
deterrence, where tactical actions aimed at containing escalation ended up
dragging it into an unwanted war of attrition.
Failure to understand the logic of Hamas and other Gaza-based groups — what
Israel Security College authors termed “the otherness of the enemy” — led to
a breakdown of Israeli deterrence in the weeks leading prior to and during
the war, experts here say.
It was partially restored, experts here say, through three weeks of
punishing military action that compelled Hamas to finally accept the Aug. 26
ceasefire that ended the 50-day war.
“We made the strategic mistake of miscalculating enemy rationale,” said a
retired IDF senior commander. “While Hamas was preparing for war, we
understood it to be just another round.”
The fact that Israel got dragged into a war not of its choosing was a
fundamental flaw, the retired commander said. “We must never be dragged.
Wars are won at the beginning with very high-intensity initiating offense.
You can’t win wars by climbing steps.”
It all could have been avoided — or more properly planned — had the IDF
correctly assessed the consequences of its actions in the weeks prior to
Protective Edge, said the former IDF chief.
He was referring to Operation Brother’s Keeper, which began June 13 as a
mission to return three Israeli teens abducted and murdered by a terrorist
cell linked to Hamas. It quickly evolved into a major 15-day ground
incursion throughout the West Bank.
Read More
@ SHmuel HaLevi 2:
There is a new right wing cable channel I have it on chanel 20 on Hot.
comment to SHmuel HaLevi 2: in moderation???
@ SHmuel HaLevi 2:
Unless he wants them to leave so he can bring in the Haredim.
Lapid is fucking up the treasury and bring down Israel’s credit rating. Will also effect foreign investment and force Israel to pay hundreds of millions in added Interest.
Livni has become an embarrassment and with EU and Obama not about to lighten up it would be a smart move to shore up his and the Likud’s base which would essentially protect him domestically.
Be interesting to see who backs down and draw wider conclusions. BB of late has become closer to Bennett and Bennett has softened his position and criticism of BB.
We shall see by weeks end.
@ yamit82:
Netanyahu may not be a leader at field level but he is the best at political survival and manipulations.
He will not fire them, just fire their ministers and replace them with….
@ yamit82:
Incidentally, the Constitution Of The State Of Palestine defines its national character as Arab and Islamic.
I don’t see the Israeli Left up in arms about it. But when the Jews seek to define the nature of their own state, suddenly that is anti-democratic and anti-Zionist.
What’s kosher for the Palestinian Arab goose to them is treif for the Jewish gander.
Even though its exactly the same exercise in national self-definition.
@ yamit82:
All the proposed Basic Law would do is define Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people and the homeland of that people.
Nothing racist or bizarre about it. Unfortunately on the Left today, nationalism is regarded as a form of national chauvinism.
And that is the real reason for all the opposition to it, not that it breaks new ground or does something no other country in the world hasn’t placed in their constitution.
@ yamit82:
The Supreme Court cannot strike down a Basic Law, which is a higher constitutional law. I expect such a challenge to fail.
Jewish State is the title of a famous book by Theodor Herzl that established the Zionist program. If the Left now finds it controversial, it cannot be that its meaning has changed.
Nowhere does the proposed Basic Law establish a theocracy. And I’m sure every one would agree that was not Herzl’s intent at all.
“The jeremiads of the Left against the “Jewish nationality bill” would be a bit less laughable if we were not talking about the exact same people who have been working tirelessly for so many years to erect an anti-democratic terrorist state of “Palestine” that defines itself as an Arabs-only and Moslems-only state in which no Jews at all would be permitted to live.”
Curiously the “Moslem Nation-State” proposal of any “Palestine” that arises does not bother them at all. (Steven Plaut)
SHmuel HaLevi 2 Said:
Those that want to sabotage the Law better understand that many will come to the rescue.
@ SHmuel HaLevi 2:
Better than nothing and based on reaction of hysterical left it’s the best we can hope for but certainly doesn’t go far enough.
Will BB fire Livni and Lapid if they vote against????
If they do and he does that will explain his support for the law!!!!
@ yamit82:
No one can say that I have a soft spot for Netanyahu, yet on this case, I support him.
A routine review of precedents will show that many countries identify themselves for example as follows..
Argentina. Constitution, Article II I believe.
This is a Catholic Apostolic Republic…
Ireland…
I will not list the Islamic countries.
Those that want to sabotage the Law better understand that many will come to the rescue.
@ SHmuel HaLevi 2:
@ Bear Klein:
@ Bear Klein:
If approved this law will be challenged in the SC of Israel and the Judges will in the end write their approved revision of the Law or set the law down as unconstitutional.
In the meantime all of our enemies will unite to defame Israel as a racist Nazi-like state.
After sixty-four years it only now occurred to our Prime Minister to make a law defining Israel as the Jewish State. Yet even now he cannot help but water it down to include Arabs. We cannot have a Jewish State with Arabs as equal citizens. If we have a Jewish State then only Jews should be citizens. If we have a democratic state then anyone can be a citizen, and the character of the state will be determined by the majority. You cannot have both. All of our leaders choose to deny this reality, but some are beginning to see the problem. Eventually everyone will see it. But the longer it takes the more needless tragedy we are forced to endure.
Its not exactly what I want – I would have preferred the Elkin version.
The compromise is still better than what Livni is proposing. Insistence on the perfect is the enemy of the good and a future Knesset can always bring the details more in line is what is needed.
All said and done, in today’s vote, something truly important happened in getting Zionism and the Jewish State on the national agenda – that is no small accomplishment in view of the forces arrayed against it.
I’ve been of the view that before Israel does anything else, it should state its founding vision as the Jewish State in its highest laws.
Principle first, details later. I agree with Shmuel here but as one to see the trees for the forest, I have to see the big picture.
And the big picture is exactly what terrifies Israel’s “destroyers from within.” Now we must ensure the Zionist vision ultimately becomes part and parcel of Israel’s national constitutional fabric.
For Israel, the stakes have never been higher.
Kol Hakavod to the Law proponents.
Rest assured that the unJews will use every low level artifact to sabotage it.
What must be done now is to reform the election of Judges. The Parliament may select candidates to such postings and only the people may elect them.