By Ted Belman
Netanyahu did himself proud. He was strong on his redlines yet concilitory.
1. Jerusalem will remain the undivided capital of Israel.
2. Israel won’t retreat to ’67 lines.
3. Israel must maintain a longterm presence on the Jordan.
4. Palestine must be demilitarized.
5. No right of return to Israel
6. Israel will keep all its settlement blocks around Jerusalem and Tel Aviv
7. Israel will evacuate some settlements
8. Fatah must blow off Hamas.
9. Abbas must accept Israel as a Jewish state
As for how much land we would give them for a state, he said he would be generous. But he made it clear that we are giving them part of our homeland rather than returning to them what is theirs. I had the feeling that he was intent on hanging on to much more land than his predecessors have tried to do. Especially when he said we will give them “part of the land”.
The speech was extremely well received by the audience.
Yamit
It is very complex. I am trying to deal with it in the 10 part series on history on http://www.wedefendisrael.com
We are weak and vulnerable, so we can only fight for the truth of history in a scrupulous manner.
I repeat.
If there had been no Judaism there would be no Jewish nation and there would be no Israel.
Bill
There is this side to Obama. He is really full of himself and his dope of a wife is so full of herself. Apparently she visited the KITCHEN of Cameron’s wife. Earth shattering event Bill!
The problem is that events create people too. Think that Hitler and the Nazis changed their tack on the Jews to Jews leaving to Jews being liquidated there and then round about the end of 1941, and the soon to be Wannsee Conference, with Hajj amin el Husseini emerging there in Berl;in at the centre of events about November 1941
We do not know fully how this Obama figure will finish up.
But we do know he comes out of this ISM Khalidi/Said tradition and that is a big warning.
Rather than peace I argue he is after destruction.
Same issue with Dweller.
As individuals we can only state WHAT IS.
That is my main point re Netanyahu. He does not state WHAT IS
Felix, para. #’s don’t show up on my page. Dealing with the statement, “Peace (not Judaism) is good, a peace treaty formalizes peace, therefor go for peace treaties at any cost.”
It is not necessarily that Jews put peace ahead of Judaism, but it is true that many Jews (precisely how many is unknown) do see Israel’s best chance for survival in a peace deal with the Palestinians, but in so doing, they put the emphasis on peace without regard to the issues of what kind of peace and whether such peace would be secure, stable and sustainable.
For many including me, I see Obama’s grand and concerted efforts to force an Israel-Palestinian peace deal as something akin to a quest for the “holy grail”. He, like Bush and Clinton before him, but even more than they, is consumed with dreams of glory and establishing his own legacy in the annals of history as the one person who brought about peace between Israel and the Palestinians/Arabs.
Obama, like his predecessors figure the Arabs/Palestinians cannot be pressured to make peace with Israel, so he pressures only Israel to make peace with the Palestinians. Like his predecessors, Obama continues to frame the ongoing war in the context of a territorial war, but all the evidence from the Arab/Palestinian side make it clear this is a religious/ideological war for them. It is not about Palestinian self determination in their own state, but a denial of Jewish self determination in their own state. Thus the destruction of Israel is paramount in most of their rhetoric and declared goals.
For Obama, it appears that if he can be the one to achieve a peace deal, even if it is not worth the paper it is written on, will be enough to enshrine his name and memory in the light of adulation. Adulation is of course what egomaniacs like Obama need to sustain them.
Let’s say, if only for the sake of discussion at this point, that I agree with you.
What, or whom, have you got to plug into the socket left empty by BB’s departure if it took place, say, tomorrow morning?
Are you quite certain that whoever became PM would then be able to withstand the hideous pressures that any (and EVERY) PM comes under — especially from Foggy Bottom & from the EU — the moment he takes office (if not earlier)?
Dweller
Now is the time to fight Netanyahu. Netanyahu is never so dangerous as when he thinks he is the new Messiah. It is when he feels confident that he will give away huge tracts of Judea and Samaria
Bill asks what about the couple of million Arabs.
But this question is not static. We seek the end and must be adaptable and ingenious in the process.
The end is that Jews must live alone, have the right to live alone, and this has been forced on them by History
In any case they must live alone and they must defend their existence by every means
Immediately this term democracy must be scrapped and in its place must be put the term “survival of the Jewish people”
That not one more Jew be injured because of antisemitism
Bring this back to immediate specifics and tasks to do
The alliance of Abbas with Hamas must entail
1. Netanyahu states “Peace process is a sham
2. That those who disagree with this asssessment are the enemies of Israel
3. That Israel treats Abbas joining Hamas formally as an act of war
4. That many organizational conclusions follow from that condition of war, one of which is that all US and EU personnel who are in PA territory and are training the PA Army and Police leave immediately. If not they are arrested.
Just an example. That sort of thing.
You see Netanyahu does nothing like this. He plays the Jewish victim in front of the Americans..
Jews must do the opposite. No more playing the victim. That road is totally disastrous.
NOW is the time to get rid of Netanyahu. NOW NOW NOW!
Felix you have shocked me! I must say for an atheist and dialectic materialist you seem to have begun to understand some basic truisms except of-course your affinity for Marxism, but that’s another topic for another time. 🙂
But what such “thinking” leaves out is the green shoots of national liberation.
We write this as NATO pummels the Libya patriots (the Gadhafi side) into submission
This in the end will be the great crime of Netanyahu that he did not join hands despite past dispuites with the Gadhafi side. Jews must always take the hard and principled road.
Bill
Can I draw you back to comment 36 by Yamit82 where he deals with a formal “rationalism” and he gives many examples such as
That and more IS the thinking of many secularized Jews, but rather more than secular really more ignorant, ignorant of their Jewish history and heritage
Herzl strayed into the area of accepting a Uganda province but he was pulled back from that by the vigour of the Russian jewish massed ranks as represented in that Zionist Congress.
Which means that there would have been no Israel state at all without the Jewish religion. Put that in your pipe you opportunist and shallow ignorant “Lefts” and smoke it
The first of 10 articles on aspects of history has been published on http://wedefendisrael.com/2011/05/23/the-history-of-the-jews-is-long-and-proud-and-is-intimately-tied-up-with-their-religion-judaism/
How did I make my comment about me?
Who is We?
Yamit, you made yourself the issue. You made it all about you. I thus made my rational argument about you.
I did not expect you to applaud.
Venting again? Of course you are. Nothing new there. Thx again for the laugh.
You have an inexhaustible supply of hot air, so keep blowing and I’ll keep laughing.
Now that is what I call a symbiotic relationship!
Laugh away. Where is your rational argument? You so readily advise one and all to make cogent arguments, where’s yours? You can’t argue the merits so you transfer your emphasis to the personal. Nothing new here, that’s what you do. I don’t mind a good fight and have lost my share but I really detest cowards both physical and intellectual.
Who is WE?
laugh away, now that we understand each other. 😛
Yamit, sliming me, fellow contributors and most Jews by trying to frame your slime in a faux sophisticated psychoanalytical way, only reveals your arrogance to believe you are adept at psychoanlysis sans licence and the training that goes with it. It also suggests you are a psycho, but I mean that in lay terms as I don’t profess expertise in the field of psychiatry.
Look Yamit, I am not going to tell you to stop your venting and sliming me and so many others in so many different ways.
No Yamit. I am telling you to keep it up because as I have told you many times before, I like to be amused. Your feckless futile efforts to put me and others down provides all of us with much amusement, that is sure to elicit a smile, a chuckle or when your really get wound up, a real big belly laugh.
We are not however, laughing with you Yamit. We are laughing at you.
Hymie you get around, different name for each thread?
Been down this debate for almost 5 years with you but to put things in a numbers perspective: America: pays $4 billion a day just in interest payments on their quadrillion debt. At least with Israel they get a return for their investment. That said, were it up to me I would not accept aid from anyone. We can certainly pay for whatever we buy today. If America won’t sell we can buy from others and if need be make it ourselves.
Yamit: You are quite correct.Israel has sold its birthrighr by accepting billions from the U.S. And allowing the Europeans and the U. N. a place at the negotiating table. Israel should say enough, no more blood money, take your filthy lucre and your weaponry- WE ARE GOING TO MAKE IT ON OUR OWN.
Funny Europe is bankrupt and on the brink of disintegrating. Nato w/out America couldn’t shoot their way out of a paper bag.
All things considered we are doing much better without them than with them. Friedman is an asshole and an idiot. I think only brain-dead liberal Jews pay him any heed.
Narvey your problem and not only yours is that most Jews today are PRIMITIVE RATIONALISTS! Like in mathematics: democracy (not Judaism) is axiomatic, the government is elected democratically, therefor the government is right. Peace (not Judaism) is good, a peace treaty formalizes peace, therefor go for peace treaties at any cost. A rationalist education prepares minds for a single, formally deducible solution, while in the real world the solutions are many, discovered only by trial and error. In the chess-like rationalist worldview, rational negotiators weigh each other’s chances and agree to mutually acceptable, peaceful solutions; in the real world, groups fight against all odds – and often win.
The concept of a “peace process” is an Israeli invention, patent pending. Other nations achieved peace by crushing their enemies, not by talking them into blackout.
A Rationalist Argument might go like this: If Judaism is a superstition, then why hold on to Hebron, Judea, or Jerusalem? Give Arabs what those righteous victims want, withdraw behind the Green Line, and only kill them when they attack “our” Israel. But young Jews ask themselves the next question: why bother defending “our” Israel? Why not just move to Toronto? If there is no Judaism, then Canada is as much “our” country as Israel. In Canada, a Jew faces Canadians; in Israel – Arabs. Sensible secular rational Jews opt for Canada.
Jewish views are indefensible on rational grounds. Once Judaism is rejected, Zionism becomes racism and robbery. Jews believe themselves different from others due to Judaism; if there is no Judaism, the baseless assertion of one’s difference amounts to racism. If Jews have no right to Hebron, where Abraham purchased a land plot and a burial place, where David had his capital before conquering Jerusalem, then what is the Jewish right to Tel Aviv? Rationalists are willing to give up Hebron but hold on to Tel Aviv which amounts to this: we’re moral people because we steal only a little; we steal from Arabs in the Tel Aviv area but not Judea. According to Judaism, we’re the rightful owners of this land in its entirety; according to the liberal rationalists, we’re small-time robbers at best
The facts I present back up what you consider irrational discourse and conclusions. You ignore the facts and build your opinion on nothing but hot air and wishful thinking and fear. That puts you in one of the following categories : the. disingenuous, stupid,blind, cowardly……etc.
No rational atheist has anything constructive to contribute to the Israeli pali conflict debate for the above reasons.
IOW, Thomas Friedman would have Jews sell their birthright. Sell, what so many better Jews than he could ever be, fought and died for. Disgusting. Friedman would rather Israel be European than Jewish. This is why Israeli Jews would do well to take American Jewry opinion in to consideration but with a grain of salt; they are not as invested as Israeli Jewry because their loyalites are elsewhere along with their blithering minds. Ultimately, Israeli Jews will suffer the consequences while American/European Jewry will only live in Israel as a last resort.
Bah! All Israel needs is confidence.
Oooooooooooh! Look! The bottom line: Thomas’s promises:
The New York Times’ Thomas Friedman wrote after Prime Minister Netanyahu’s speech, “If Netanyahu actually put a credible, specific two-state peace map on the table — not just the same old vague promises about ‘painful compromises’ — he could get the Americans and Europeans to toss in anything Israel wanted, including the newest weapons, NATO membership, maybe even European Union membership.”
Yamit, If only you made as great an effort to impress us with your reasoning and logic skills as you do to impress us with your knowledge of facts, perhaps we might see you as the maiven you think you are. Venting, denouncing and denigrating others with your slurs, is no substitute for cogent analysis.
Thoroughly exposed to your view, yes,
to mine, yes,
to the view of other observers here, yes,
absolutely.
But not necessarily to the perception of the broader culture
not yet.
(Face it, not yet by a country mile.)
We need to be taking this opportunity
to SHOW it to them.
The left blogosphere
especially the Jewish left
will twist itself into a pretzel
in its zeal
to find ways to spin it
or deemphasize it.
It’s already hard at work doing just that.
And we have to be careful
in denouncing the peace process to not give the impression
that we think the only problem is
the hudna with Hamas.
The PA/Fatah mustn’t be allowed to come off as the ‘sincere but helpless victim,’ but rather the obverse of the same coin of which Hamas is the reverse.
We have to be communicating the message that the peace process is BS, even as we ride the wave of momentary public euphoria over the PM’s visit.
Let that be a point-of-departure, yes — I wouldn’t rain on that parade, the energy shouldn’t be let go to waste (instead we should pick up the ball & run with it) — we should, at every opportunity, I think, be bringing the focus around, again & again, to Jewish rights under the Mandate. The public needs to be PREPARED for the break when the time comes to make that break.
Maybe not.
Also, however — in any case — irrelevant.
Forget leaders (for now).
First things first.
What’s needed is hasbara that injects or insinuates itself into the culture
saturating it from the ground up.
At a certain point, that change will draw to itself the suitable leadership.
You can do it now, at a point of disadvantage, or you can do it later, at a point of even greater disadvantage.
Those are your choices.
Jeff Grill, you’ve gone far afield from the point I made about you and Yamit being unrealistic, which had to do with ignoring the reality that about 600 thousand Palestinians in J & S and Gaza have grown to 2 million plus. Short of driving them out which is what you doubtless wish for, just what do you propose be done with them?
Yes, the PLO charter while worded differently than Hamas’, says essentially the same thing in relation to the end goal. Yes, Abbas/Fatah differ from Hamas pretty much only as regards tactics. Yes, most Palestinians hate Jews and Israel, but that is hardly surprising since Palestinian leadership, and their Mid East Arab brothers, both before and since 1948, have made Jew/Israel hatred a significant feature of their culture and the dream for Israel’s destruction, their most fervent aspiration. Eternal war with the Palestinians is Israel’s lot, all things remaining equal.
Knowing that, it is easy to wish Israel would annex at least J & S and move the Palestinians out one way or another.
There is a world of difference however, between Israel and Jews wishing and making it so.
Given all the impediments to fulfilling your wishes Jeff, which I needn’t enumerate here as you likely know them as well as I, just what feasible plan do you offer to make it so?
I took Ted’s list of red lines and slightly modified them:
1. Jerusalem will remain the undivided capital of Israel, the undivided eternal land of the Jewish nation.
2. Israel won’t retreat.
3. Israel must maintain a permanent presence all the way to the Jordan River.
4. Palestine must be eliminated.
5. No right of return to anywhere.
6. Israel will keep all of Israel.
7. Israel will evacuate Arabs.
8. Fatah must be eliminated.
9. Abbas can accept Israel as a Jewish state or not, from his home in Amman or Damascus or Beirut or from the end of a rope.
People tend to forget, overlook or simply not understand.
The thing that Obama has got is the power of the state in his hands, and also the great majority of the Media. It is the control of state power that makes sitting Presidents hard to beat in election.
The real truth is that a mere form of words stands between the antisemites and their Jew ending and Jew killing (shades of Wannsee here) state coming into existence. Obama is laughing at the Jews.
I agree with Shy. If Jews really knew they would not be static. It comes down to leadership.
Dweller re your post 13
The peace process is now thoroughly exposed and out in the open with Abbas joining forces with Hamas of Protocols of Zion infamy.
NOW is the time
Once more Netanyahu fluffed his chance. The man is not a leader.
A real leader stands up and utters the truth no matter what the cost.
Obama has been dining with the queenie and is grinning at Netanyahu from ear to ear.
The antisemites are all laughing at the Jews. It just takes an opportunistic and taqqiya form of words from Hamas and hey presto they have a Muslim Brotherhood state on ancient Jewish land
HCQ, I can guarantee you that if all of Israel spoke the truth, we wouldn’t be going down.
Ah yes, Yamit, but even if Israel invoked the truth the world would still find the fiction far more preferable. The fiction is what makes it easier to dismantle and ultimately destroy Israel and that is the true goal. However, Israel would be on record with the truth and one would think it better to go down shouting the truth than conceding to a narrative that one knows in his heart to be false.
Felix Quigley said:
There is such a human being but Israel wouldn’t have him. Moshe Feiglin oft derides the Oslo mentality of Israeli pols.
Question should be directed firstly to Ted.
I wish I could find some major points of disagreement with Felix.
Of course Binyamin is not far enough to the right on this issue for my taste but its not my country.
I don’t feel Israel should give up anything. Why does no one mention that Jordan is “Palestine” and “Palestine” is Jordan? Why does no one remind the world that Jordan occupies a large part of the mandate of the Roman concept of “Palestine”? Why does no one remind the world that the majority of the Jordanian population is “Palestinian” Arab and the minority is Hashemite? The king of Jordan is Hashemite and his queen is “Palestinian”(but they’re both still Arab). Of course, Binyamin, like Israeli leaders before him, all suffer from Oslo mentality and that is why Israel will eventually be divided.
How can anyone stand up for you when you won’t stand up for yourselves or the truth?
Jeff
Netanyahu did worse than that even.
Not a word from Netanyahu about Libya where NATO, the worst enemies of the Jews in Obama and the EU (Cameron and SARKOZY), HAS NOW BEEN BOMBING TRIPOLI HEAVILY IN THE LAST 2 NIGHTS
In fact Netanyahu making a big deal out of Israel being loyal to the US made it very clear where he stands. he stands with NATO, always with NATO. Has he been bought earlier in life.
This “prophet” Netanyahu leads the Jews into the jaws of death and I can smell the flesh burning from here.
When Netanyahu speaks this is not the proud Jewish people who returned from Babylon equipped with their Bible and capable national self consciousness. He is projecting Jews and Israel as being the dhimmis of America
Meanwhile the ONLY strategy which Ted can produce is to pin everything on the replacement of Obama by a Republican. But that does not break the “dhimmi of America” mentality.
There is NO middle road here and the main problem is that Israel does not have a human being who can articulate the need.
This is to
1. As stated bring the San Remo Conference of 1920 into play in all discussions
2. Bring into play also the criminality of Britain and Churchill and direct this specially to Cameron that Britain robbed the Jews in the following months of 80 per cent of their promised Homeland
3. That these “Palestinians” are a fake, the product of the machinations of Britain and America, and of their promotion of Holocaust organizer Hajj Amin el Husseini. Not only “Palestinians” but “Palestinian Arabs” is a rubbish term.
The danger is not at all just Obama. The danger is this American and EU consciousness, where they look on Libya and could care less about past and solemn agreements, such as that made by George W. Bush with Muammar Gadhafi. An agreement with Gadhafi what nonsence we are the great Americans!
And the big danger is these “republicans” who see the agreement with Gadhafi made by Bush as being just an agreement with a “native”, of no real consequence.
And at this moment in time as far as these same people are concerned Netanyahu can do no wrong
The only problem with this is that the Democrats AND republicans have wrought havoc in the Middle East. Mubarak who is threatened now with execution BY THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD, AND NOW lIBYA AND GADHAFI, PROVES THAT THEY CANNOT BE TRUSTED FOR A SECOND
How Mubarak must now rue trusting America. How gadhafi must regret not acquiring those Nuclear arms.
But Israel is treading the same path.
EVERYTHING about Netanyahu to me stinks.
There are 2 other golden calves: secularism and democracy.
So there is actually a trinity of golden calves. 🙂
Numbers 33
53 And ye shall drive out the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein; for unto you have I given the land to possess it. . 55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you, then shall those that ye let remain of them be as thorns in your eyes, and as pricks in your sides, and they shall harass you in the land wherein ye dwell. 56 And it shall come to pass, that as I thought to do unto them, so will I do unto you.
This is relevant: Why did G-d see a need to Test Abraham by telling him to sacrifice Isaak ?
The ans. It has to do with Peace treaties and the giving away land that G-d Gave to Abraham and his descendents.
Punishment: For 7 generations the Philistines would rule over the Jews.
There is no greater sin in Judaism than willingly giving up any part of the Land of Israel to a non Jew. There will be terrible consequences individually and collectively.
Just look at all of our past leaders who did or tried to give away parts of the land. MEASURE for MEASURE.
In the 14 centuries of Jewish history in the Land of Israel from Joshua to Bar Kochba, there is not a single instance of Jews giving up willingly any part of the Land of Israel.
We are commanded to fight (war) rather than cede even tribute to an enemy. This would fall under Jewish Law as a war of Obligation (no choice.
BB and so many have created a neo golden Calf called Peace. This will not end well.
Narvey you like to parse words and meanings? You ain’t got nothin on BB though.
Settlements: some are how many?
Speaking before the US House, Netanyahu went further than any left-wing PM: he publicly acknowledged that the future Israeli-Palestinian border will leave some settlements with the Arabs. That more or less limits Israeli aspirations to settlement blocs, and calls for eviction from 60 to 100 thousand Jews.
BB has already abandoned those settlement in deeds as well as most of E. Jerusalem. Facts on the ground put meat on BB’s the verbal bone.
I am not miserable, foulmouthed? maybe. But unlike you I am not a fool or an idiot. You never learn! Neither does Ted for that matter
Israel’s road map reservations
The following is the text of the 14 reservations that Israel attached to the road map, which the U.S. has promised to “fully and seriously address,” but this promise was not an assurance that all of Israel’s demands would be met.
Prime Minister Ariel Sharon’s cabinet on Sunday approved the “road map” – a three-phase plan that calls for a settlement freeze and an end to terror attacks in the first stage, a Palestinian state with temporary borders in the second, and a final-status agreement by 2005. The vote was 12-7 with four abstentions at the end of a stormy six-hour debate.
Israel attached 14 reservations to the road map, which the U.S. has promised to “fully and seriously address,” but this promise was not an assurance that all of Israel’s demands would be met. The following is the text of the reservations:
Primary themes of Israel’s remarks
1. Both at the commencement of, and during the process, and as a condition to its continuance, calm will be maintained. The Palestinians will dismantle the existing security organizations and implement security reforms during the course of which new organizations will be formed and act to combat terror, violence and incitement (incitement must cease immediately and the Palestinian Authority must educate for peace).
These organizations will engage in genuine prevention of terror and violence through arrests, interrogations, prevention and the enforcement of the legal groundwork for investigations, prosecution and punishment. In the first phase of the plan and as a condition for progress to the second phase, the Palestinians will complete the dismantling of terrorist organizations (Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Popular Front, the Democratic Front, Al-Aqsa Brigades and other apparatuses) and their infrastructure; collection of all illegal weapons and their transfer to a third party for the sake of being removed from the area and destroyed; cessation of weapons smuggling and weapons production inside the Palestinian Authority; activation of the full prevention apparatus and cessation of incitement.
There will be no progress to the second phase without the fulfillment of all above-mentioned conditions relating to the war against terror. The security plans to be implemented are the Tenet and Zinni plans. [As in the other mutual frameworks, the road map will not state that Israel must cease violence and incitement against the Palestinians].
2. Full performance will be a condition for progress between phases and for progress within phases. The first condition for progress will be the complete cessation of terror, violence and incitement. Progress between phases will come only following the full implementation of the preceding phase. Attention will be paid not to time lines, but to performance benchmarks (time lines will serve only as reference points).
3. The emergence of a new and different leadership in the Palestinian Authority within the framework of governmental reform. The formation of a new leadership constitutes a condition for progress to the second phase of the plan. In this framework, elections will be conducted for the Palestinian Legislative Council following coordination with Israel.
4. The Monitoring mechanism will be under American management. The chief verification activity will concentrate upon the creation of another Palestinian entity and progress in the civil reform process within the Palestinian Authority. Verification will be performed exclusively on a professional basis and per issue (economic, legal, financial) without the existence of a combined or unified mechanism. Substantive decisions will remain in the hands of both parties.
5. The character of the provisional Palestinian state will be determined through negotiations between the Palestinian Authority and Israel. The provisional state will have provisional borders and certain aspects of sovereignty, be fully demilitarized with no military forces, but only with police and internal security forces of limited scope and armaments, be without the authority to undertake defense alliances or military cooperation, and Israeli control over the entry and exit of all persons and cargo, as well as of its air space and electromagnetic spectrum.
6. In connection to both the introductory statements and the final settlement, declared references must be made to Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state and to the waiver of any right of return for Palestinian refugees to the State of Israel.
7. End of the process will lead to the end of all claims and not only the end of the conflict.
8. The future settlement will be reached through agreement and direct negotiations between the two parties, in accordance with the vision outlined by President Bush in his 24 June address.
9. There will be no involvement with issues pertaining to the final settlement. Among issues not to be discussed: settlement in Judea, Samaria and Gaza (excluding a settlement freeze and illegal outposts); the status of the Palestinian Authority and its institutions in Jerusalem; and all other matters whose substance relates to the final settlement.
10. The removal of references other than 242 and 338 (1397, the Saudi Initiative and the Arab Initiative adopted in Beirut). A settlement based upon the road map will be an autonomous settlement that derives its validity therefrom. The only possible reference should be to Resolutions 242 and 338, and then only as an outline for the conduct of future negotiations on a permanent settlement.
11. Promotion of the reform process in the Palestinian Authority: a transitional Palestinian constitution will be composed, a Palestinian legal infrastructure will be constructed and cooperation with Israel in this field will be renewed. In the economic sphere: international efforts to rehabilitate the Palestinian economy will continue. In the financial sphere: the American-Israeli-Palestinian agreement will be implemented in full as a condition for the continued transfer of tax revenues.
12. The deployment of IDF forces along the September 2000 lines will be subject to the stipulation of Article 4 (absolute quiet) and will be carried out in keeping with changes to be required by the nature of the new circumstances and needs created thereby. Emphasis will be placed on the division of responsibilities and civilian authority as in September 2000, and not on the position of forces on the ground at that time.
13. Subject to security conditions, Israel will work to restore Palestinian life to normal: promote the economic situation, cultivation of commercial connections, encouragement and assistance for the activities of recognized humanitarian agencies. No reference will be made to the Bertini Report as a binding source document within the framework of the humanitarian issue.
14. Arab states will assist the process through the condemnation of terrorist activity. No link will be established between the Palestinian track and other tracks (Syrian-Lebanese).
*******Does anyone remember these 14 stipulations? What did Israel do when they were rejected out of hand or ignored? Why does any one of you expect BB to behave today any differently than he did in the past when he voted for the Road Map, and sat silent when the 14 stipulations were rejected by Your Friend GWB? **********
Narvey you have never ever been correct about Israel and BB in the Past and so far you are still batting 0.00000!!!!
When G-d gives His people the give of the land of their forefathers, and the people then give it for nothing to their greatest enemies, and more so, promise to continue doing it in front of the entire world, don’t be surprised to find out that G-d will so to speak get fed up with you and make you eat your words.
Stupid Jews.
What you’ve written is sound.
Acknowledging all that, however, there’s no denying that at SOME point, it will be necessary to end the peace process — because the longer it persists, the more Israel is diminished & delegitimized — and stand on our rights (with friends OR without them) and, yes, annex the lands: extend Israeli law to all territory from River to Sea.
(Giving citizenship can itself be a very selective & protracted process — every govt gets to set its own rules, procedures & criteria; those who found Israel’s “unsatisfactory” would always be free to seek citizenship elsewhere…)
The further off in time to which that moment-of-truth (i.e., the jettisoning of the “peace process”) is postponed, however, the harder it will be to do it, and the more startling it will be for many, if they have no existing, even vaguely familiar, point-of-reference to relate it to. Therefore, while it’s prudent for us to ride the present wave, and “take the current when it serves,” it would seem the better part of wisdom to ALSO, at this time, be preparing both the Jewish communities and the broader popular culture for the day when the ‘peace process’ is exposed for the fraud & sham that it is, and we stand on those rights as guaranteed in 1920 & 1922.
Bibi painted key red lines as I have said. That doesn’t mean that his terms will be accepted. They won’t. So the issue of Fatah being no different from Hamas won’t come up. Bibi clearly took a reasonable position as far as Americans are concerned. In doing so he solidified his relation with them and he strengthened the concensus in Israel in support of his stance. This is of extreme importance to Israel to enable her to keep the wolves at bay.
The pro-Israel detractors want him to go further and call out Fatah and to end the peace process. Why? Israel would lose support in the US and Bibi would lose support in Israel. What would be gained?
Israel clearly doesn’t want to annex all the land as that would necessitate her expelling the Palestinians or giving them citizenship. Israel doesn’t want to do either. The status quo which is sure to continue allows us to avoid both. The cost to us is to play the peace process.
Having said that we should not retreat from our redlines nor give in an anything due to pressure. And we needn’t because we are in control.
Some don’t like that Bibi keeps making nice to Obama but all commenter’s on Hannity said why shouldn’t he, he already won the argument. They saw him as a bigger man for having made it easier for Obama to come down from the limb he was out on.
Mr. Narvey,
My last name is Grill, not Gill. How am I out of touch with reality?
Please provide me with evidence that I am ‘psychotic.’
Let me ask you, Mr. Narvey, why Bibi will not condemn the terrorist entity known as the PA/Fatah? Negotiating with these terrorists has proven fruitless and lethal – how much more innocent Israeli blood has to be spilled to prove this point? Why do Israeli politicians feel compelled to engage in the ‘kubuki’ dance – known as the “peace process” – with an entity that seeks its destruction. The Oslo peace process has long been moribund. It was a collosal error for Israel to ever sign an agreement with Arafat’s PLO. The “treason” committed by successive Israeli politicians – including Prime Ministers – since the Oslo peace agreement was signed in 9/93 is legend. When will the Israeli government come to terms with the fact that it will never be able to negotiate – in good faith – with any Islamic entity that adheres to Islamic Scripture and traditions.
Just because a depraved world is shilling for and begging for a terrorist state to be carved into Israel’s heartland does not mean that Israel has to comply with the request. The PA/Fatah are as vile and despicable as Hamas.
And, yes, authentic, Muhammaden Islam is at the root of genocidal Yahudi hatred.
Yamit, you are a miserable foul mouthed Bibi hating cynic, insulting to all others who post here and as out of touch with reality as Jeff Gill when you applaud his statement that Bibi offered up portions of Judea/Samaria to an Islamic terrorist entity .
Bibi proposed an end game peace solution vision that has been voiced by past PM’s. Have the Palestinians done anything to advance the cause of peace? Have they done anything to bring them any closer to having portions of J & S for themselves?
I know your position is that the Palestinians should be forcibly evacuated from J & S or induced to leave and Israel should then annex her ancestral lands.
So Chochom, just how do you propose that can be feasibly accomplished? Oh yeah. I seem to recall you saying at one point that you would go in with bombs dropping and guns blazing and drive the Palestinians out of J & S or at least the survivors of that onslaught. Yeah right! Floating such idea only says that you are floating high on something you are smoking.
God forbid the Mid East erupts in war and Arabs join in an attack on Israel, then such Israeli response might actually happen.
Short of that, the 2 million Palestinians living in Gaza and J & S is not an easily displaced or dismissed fact.
Bibi hit a home run in dressing down Obama at the WH and another home run in the joint session of Congress where he delivered his remarks. Of course one or 2 homeruns does not end the ball game. There are many more innings to play. Hopefully Netanyahu can hang tough and swing hard to bat more home runs in future.
In the interim, Bibi might want to consider muzzling Ehud Barak or drop him from the team. Now would also be a good idea to re-introduce the bill before the Knesset to investigate funding sources of anti-Israel left wing organizations in Israel and this time ensure the bill carries a rider that the investigatory committee will have subpoena power.
Riding high on his success in the U.S., Bibi might want to also consider putting forth other legislation before the Knesset that would advantage not just him, but the government and Israel as a whole, in defending Israel from all threats, both within Israel and the outside and enabling the government to assert Israeli and Jewish rights.
BB’s financial Backers Caught red handed
The Ofer Brothers company, owned by Israel’s richest family, was slapped with U.S. sanctions put on those who do trade with the Islamic nation.
Settlements: some are how many?
Speaking before the US House, Netanyahu went further than any left-wing PM: he publicly acknowledged that the future Israeli-Palestinian border will leave some settlements with the Arabs. That more or less limits Israeli aspirations to settlement blocs, and calls for eviction from 60 to 100 thousand Jews.
May 22, 2011
Jewish snobs are happy with Obama
The 10,000-strong AIPAC conference lauded Obama heartily. The ostensibly right-wing pro-Israel lobby has forgiven the US president for his support for the ayatollahs, for ousting Mubarak, and for pushing Israel toward capitulation.
For his part, Obama has changed his position again. Now he does not call for a Palestinian state in 1967 borders, but for a state whose borders have been adjusted based on demographic changes. The settlement blocs, needless to say, are the smallest problem here: whether 8- or 30-mile-wide, Israel is indefensible, facing nuclearized Iran and Saudi Arabia, and surrounded by countries dominated by the Muslim Brotherhood.
Bingo!! A point overlooked by the brain-dead supporters of Israel that comment here.
Our Loyal supporters(sarc) seem not to mind such minor details.
BB is preparing the ground to cede most of Y&S and Jerusalem to the enemy. He is a stinking Kapo Jew Traitor who said enough, he believes to keep all parties quiet. The ideological elements of Y & S have not missed his clear message and intent and have declared tonight war on BB in order to bring him down. Some even paraded a BB Coffin through the streets of Jerusalem and ceremoniously dumped it in a trash Dumpster.
I loved the imagery.
The Jews taken in by BB’s words and their willingness to believe this Charlatan are the same Jews who believed the Germans only meant to resettle the Jews in labor camps. BB has already abandoned at least a thied of Jerusalem to the PA. American AID signs are all over the place and the American embassy is actively monitoring every single Jewish instance of construction all over Jerusalem and the WB. The police side with and protect the Arabs and Bash the Jews.
I have said many times forget what BB says watch what he does or doesn’t.
While Bibi made several cogent points during his speech to Congress today, I was dismayed to hear him “offer up” portions of Judea/Samaria to an Islamic terrorist entity – the PA/Fatah is every bit as terrorist as Hamas (their goal is the same, while their tactics differ). Moreover, ceding land to the terrorists would necessitate ‘removing’ Israelis from their homes and ‘relocating’ them – thus facilitating a Judenrein Terrorististine.
This kubuki dance with the PA must end. What is there to negotiate with an implacable enemy?
Why didn’t Bibi refer to the Balfour Declaration, the San Remo Declaration or even UN Res. 242?
Why didn’t he speak about the multifaceted, global, Muslim-Islamic war (not just the Arab Palestinian – Israeli conflict) being waged against Israel daily?
Why didn’t he speak about the ELEPHANT in the room – ISLAM! (it core tenets as espoused in the Qur’an, Hadith and Muhammad’s Biography)?
Authentic, Muhammaden Islam – NOT RADICAL ISLAM – precludes any Islamic nation/people from concluding a true and just peace with an infidel nation/people – especially Israel and Jews.
While the PA/Hamas terrorists will reject any and all overtures Netanyahu mentioned during his speech, his words will have future consequences; henceforth, Israel will be expected to cede land to the terrorists as a starting point during any future ill conceived/guided ‘negotiations.’
On Pesach, the Arabs killed another Jew. His killers were armed by Israel (courtesy of Bibi) and trained by the U.S. military. Ben Yosef Livnat (may G-d avenge his blood) was murdered by PLO “policemen” at the site of Joseph’s tomb in Sh’chem. He came to pray and he went home in a body bag. Bibi chirped his impotent calls for “severe repercussions”, an astounding thing indeed , whenever you ask a murderous band of Jew-killers to arrest themselves. And so, the blood of our brother is unavenged. His killers roam free in Fatahland. Abbas and the rest of the PLO butchers are still standing upright, with their lungs and skulls intact. And the chillul Hashem continues.
And then of course we have numerous examples of the Bedouin war with the Jewish state. One of the more unknown and insidious practices which occurred again last week, involves Bedouins who deliberately allow their camels to roam the rural highways, in the hopes of causing fatal car crashes. A Jew is fighting for his life today, because another Bedouin set his camel free in the Negev.
(Another Bedouin practice is to place “fallen” boulders, tires, or rusted machinery in the middle of the road. All done with deliberation, and the cunning serpentine knowledge that such things can never be proven in court.)
These are my reflections on the Arab war with the Jewish people, and the enduring chillul Hashem of Jewish weakness. Pray for the r’fuah sh’leimah of Yoav Ben Tzipporah. And pray for Torah leadership to arise, so we can exterminate every manifestation of Arab terror, and throw the rest of these animals out of the country. More with audio
Ted, no doubt about it. I watched him deliver a sounding speech that made it perfectly clear Israel is not the stumbling block to peace, it lies with the Palestinians.
He got good reviews from FOX afterwards and my son just loves to compare the comments with MSNBC and they called it more theatrical than anything.
NBC and MSNBC ratings are in the tank and these liberal left wing bastards still don’t get it.
Americans are tired of listening to their crap.
Time to get rid of BB before he gets rid of us. A very arrogant and stupid man. He has never learned that words and declarations have consequences.
Security? Does anyone think that a difference of 5-10 Km will give us more or less security?
He is so full of shit I can smell him here.
Netanyahu is a fool.
All the Pallies need to do is lie through their teeth, ala Arafat, and they will get to establish a terrorist state in Israel’s historic heartland.
Hashem save us.