T. Belman. More info to follow. We already knew that Israel wanted to annex the settlements. It follows she would talk to the US about it. Once you are talking about annexing the settlements why not talk about annexing the who kit and kaboodle. MAybe that is being discussed also.
Netanyahu tells lawmakers that ‘for some time now’ he’s been holding talks with U.S. on importance of West Bank to Israel
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said that for some time now he has been holding talks with the U.S. administration about the possibility of expanding Israeli sovereignty to Israeli settlements in the West Bank.
Netanyahu on Sunday blocked the advance of a bill to apply Israeli sovereignty to the settlements. The forum of coalition party heads, which convened to decide whether to support the bill, unanimously agreed to postpone the debate because of the security situation in the north.
According to Netanyahu, Israel had to avoid steps liable to embarrass the United States so as to reach understandings with the international community. The premier has used these arguments several times over the past few months in order to postpone various bills relating to annexing territories.
@ Edgar G.:
One time, when living in Israel, an Arab with whom I’d become friendly asked me to come with him to -I think- Akko or Nahariya to talk to the Land Title Officials. For at least the 3 years I’d known him he’d been regaling me with stories about his family in Israel since the Crusades. etc.etc. He had his tattered, old, very worn Title Deed with him, as authentic looking as any I’ve ever seen and I worked for years in an Irish law office and saw dozens of deeds that were hundreds of years old..
The Land Official settled the matter in about 5 minutes, and on the way back he confessed to me that he and family had only been in Israel for 5 years that they (and goats) entered across the Jordan, I think originally from Syria found their little valley with an empty large 2 roomed old Turkish building, and settled there. I was there several times and could have sworn that they’d lived there for many years..It had that look…. His father bought the “Deed” in Tulkarm or Jenin, can’t recall. It cost the equivalent of about $14…………
It was not long after the time when the Govt. sent out a call for volunteers to live on the hilltops because they’s just discovered that Arabs had been doing it in strategic places. You may remember that time.
@ Bear Klein:
I apologise in that my post lacked proper explanation. Rivlin, is a bottle nosed pot bellied cretin…in my opinion, and should keep his mouth shut on political matters that are not his business. The fact that he doesn’t is a big disservice to Israel.
The point I omitted making is that I don’t believe that ANY Arabs have a legal right to ownership, that deep investigation would show that their “title deeds” are forged. How did they come to own property, from being fellahin, who didn’t even own the mud huts they lived in.
Forging Title Deeds, is a HUGE business in YESHA Arab circles. The Ottoman Empire, apart from a 4-5 tiny land grants to favoured families who lived in Damascus or Ankara (but not in Palestine) they sold some swamp and fever ridden useless areas-also very small- to maybe the Jewish Agency or/and the JNF. The Rothschilds and a couple of others in the previous century bought parcels which later became Petach Tikva and Rishon Le Tzion. They were only allowed because the Ottoman Sultan knew it was swamp and fever ridden and of no value.
But generally, the local Arabs, owned no land , and I’ve never seen any genuine proof that they did/do. Even a Jew in Israel doesn’t own land. The State leases it for 99 or maybe now 49 years.
That’s all I meant.
@ Felix Quigley:
My comment on Sherman only had to do with his massive money incentive ideas. Nothing to do with being before or behind “the curve”. That the Gaza Arabs are glad to get out without incentive is wonderful…to imagine, but I’ll bet you a dollar to a cent, that if and when the time comes, they’ll stand fast, and start haggling for “baksheesh”….like ALL Arabs do.
On a different point, your comment about my being wrong on Yamit, is not correct. He hates Natanyahu, and as a straight up fellow affirms it. My concern is for the country, and for Netanyahu’s huge role in protecting it from the enormous waves of Anti-Semitism, and sheer Jew-Hatred, that emanate from all quarters of the globe. How he withstood Obama’s 8 years, and brought us out comparatively unscathed is a miracle. It was at a big cost to himself and wife, the insults, the derision, and downright obstacles placed against him.
So my affirmation that there is more to Netanyahu than shows publicly is not wrong, cannot be proven wrong, and common-sense says it is right. In this affirmation, is my concern for Israel via Netanyahu’s well being, because like no other PM before him, he has made contacts around the world which will serve Israel well in dire time of need.
That’s all. I don’t know him personally, and if I did, might feel like many others who excoriate him. But he’s doing a job that no one in Israel could do nearly as well.
That’s all.. @ Edgar G.:
Your mention of Spain in 1936 reminded me that I once knew a fellow who was right in the thick of it. 2 men in fact. One was the older brother of a guy I went to school for years with. He called himself Leslie Daiken, his name was actually Yodaiken. The other was a teacher in my Jewish Community primary school. His name was Mr. Frank Edwards. And being what he was and where he’d just returned from he could get a job nowhere.
Except in our school, in our Community. He was there for 30 years and retired from there as Vice-principal. You can look him up on the internet, (I just did) very interesting life.
@ Edgar G.:
So you also disagree with 3, 4, and 5? You do not want Jews to buy Arab properties and have them move elsewhere?
President Rivlin wants to annex all the land in one swoop and make the Arabs all citizens.
I understand you do not think Jews and Arabs are not compatible. I do not believe you or anyone else has a real plan that can make the Arabs vanish. So we need to come up with the most realistic type of plan than protects Israel while realizing that there will be at least some Arabs here.
My type of solution is the most in reality one could get. It certainly may not be perfect but what other step by step plan do wish to promote that has the slightest chance of coming to fruition?
@ Felix Quigley:
My comment on Sherman only had to do with his massive money incentive ideas. Nothing to do with being before or behind “the curve”. That the Gaza Arabs are glad to get out without incentive is wonderful…to imagine, but I’ll bet you a dollar to a cent, that if and when the time comes, they’ll stand fast, and start haggling for “baksheesh”….like ALL Arabs do.
On a different point, your comment about my being wrong on Yamit, is not correct. He hates Natanyahu, and as a straight up fellow affirms it. My concern is for the country, and for Netanyahu’s huge role in protecting it from the enormous waves of Anti-Semitism, and sheer Jew-Hatred, that emanate from all quarters of the globe. How he withstood Obama’s 8 years, and brought us out comparatively unscathed is a miracle. It was at a big cost to himself and wife, the insults, the derision, and downright obstacles placed against him.
So my affirmation that there is more to Netanyahu than shows publicly is not wrong, cannot be proven wrong, and common-sense says it is right. In this affirmation, is my concern for Israel via Netanyahu’s well being, because like no other PM before him, he has made contacts around the world which will serve Israel well in dire time of need.
That’s all. I don’t know him personally, and if I did, might feel like many others who excoriate him. But he’s doing a job that no one in Israel could do nearly as well.
That’s all..
@ Bear Klein:
I am in favour of only #1 & 2 on your list. The rest are fraught with complicated difficulties.
For example. How in the hell do you assure yourself of “Arab Loyalty”…… NEVER HAPPEN. I like what you normally write but you’ve been flogging this to death for a long time. There as absolutely NO cpmatability between Jews and Arabs, and since we are such a tiny country, because 2/4 was taken and GIVEN freely to the Arabs, they should be living there. I’m not surprised that Arabs want to live in Israel where they are 20 times better off and safer than in ANY Arab country.
But they bring with them their accursed Islamic, Quoranic “Laws”, which are the “kiss of death” to Jews and Jewish Culture. Also it seems to France and the EU in general. Wherever they set their smelly feet, the earth crumbles to dust and ashes. We’ve known all this for many centuries, We have progressed they have regressed from Zero to minus Zero.
We cannot co-exist with CONFIDENCE that as soon as the opportunity arises, the Arabs won’t stab us in the back. They have done so, far, far too many times already. THEY MUST GO to Arab countries, away from Israel……..!!
@ Felix Quigley: I have no desire to drive you from this site. I am not a destructive person. I don’t dislike you. I just want an explanation of how you manage to be both a Zionist and a Trotskyist at the same time, when the Trotskyists are anti-Zionist and anti-Israel. My experience is that when people know that they cannot give a rational explanation for their opinions or justify them by any rational argument, they resort to going into a rage and flinging wild accusations, while refusing to answer the pertinent questions. While they don’t realize it, this amounts to a de facto admission that their position is wrong.
Not a put-down. worked with or knew many Trotskists when I was pro-Palestinian. SWP, Worker’s world, Sparticist League, Vanessa Redgrave boycotted Israel during the Lebanon War as a Trotskist. In my experience, you are as unique as Peter Kropotkin was among the Anarchists (whom Trotsky slaughtered as Minister of War, incidentally) and among Leftists generally, for supporting the Allies during WW I.
@ Sebastien Zorn:
That is either sincerely naive or a dirty put down, neither commendable.
But it is a serious question and I can understand it. However I cannot answer it here except to say that as far as I know there is only yours truly, something I am far from happy about.
The reason for me not to answer is that you do a lot of research on many subjects and you need to do research on this too.
As and if you come up with some points on this yourself I will respond. Happy to. But this is not MY struggle as after all I could be gone tomorrow.
@ Felix Quigley:
I’ve never heard of another Trotskyist who defends Israel. Do, you know of any others besides yourself?
@ Felix Quigley:
I forgot to say Edgar that your thoughts on the danger in the present are so spot on. EWho do the BDS and these left Fascists hate the most, is it Jews and Israel…NO! it is actually yours truly because I have the political equipment to prove they are fraud socialists. I will stop at that for the moment. Eddie the Eagle represented the working class of England and I never found it funny.
@ Edgar G.:
When I turn to Trotsky as I do often it is not as a Catholic prays to a saint. it is to garner something special from experience. So Israel is not Spain 1936 on…There it was socialist revolution or victory of Fascism, with the added ingredient of Stalin…what i took out of that little passage was the issue of time…that is the most dangerous thing for Israel.
You are fundamentally wrong about Netanyahu and also I think Yamit…Yamit like you is sensing a great danger.
I think Trump is an honest man and he has opened the door to Israel and to Zionism…but Netanyahu will not ever go through that door…Never!
But Trump has not been educated about the issue, the real issue, especially in history, I doubt he understands.
But that is my point. It is not his fault or his job. It is the job of Zionist leadership. Here I come back to two bold initiatives of Martin Sherman…Firstly it is no longer necessary to bribe any Arab out of Gaza but it must be made possible by Israel and second Jews must organize with money to tell the REAL story to the world. There are two key moments first the return from Babylon with their life story in the Bible and two everything about the period 1930 to 1945 plus 1948.
Martin Sherman is a key figure but he must be helped.
@ adamdalgliesh:
I do not want to talk to you on this level. I do not know you but I do know you are a very destructive person. If you are trying to drive me off this site then I will go and simply concentrate my time on trotskyist.org.
@ Edgar G.:
Edgar you are behind the curve a bit as the latest polls showing that the Arabs of Gaza about 60 per cent are only too eager to go without money incentive…but they do need assistance of protection from the “overlords”…that creates a new situation for Martin, not negative actually. I think Martin needs to go in a slightly different direction and begin to link MORE this policy with his of telling the true story of Israel and a levy of 2 per cent of GDP give or take…
@ Felix Quigley: Felix, you’ve never explain why you are so in love with the anti-Zionist Trotsky. Even though a Jew, Trotsky made anti-Semitic remarks and even thought there were too many Jews in his own movement! And he declined to seek the leadership of the Russian Communist Party, because, he said, the people would never accept a Jewish leader. You should admire only proud Jews and Zionists, not self-haters.
@ Sebastien Zorn: Definitely fear of the Supreme Court! Also, fear of the police, the public prosecutors office, the Attorney General, all of whom are aligned with the Supreme Court. Any Israeli politician who defies the “deep state” is investigated and eventually prosecuted. The police have just recommended prosecution of Netanyahu. And they have recommended he be prosecuted many time before.
@ Felix Quigley:
Well I differ a bit about Netanyahu, because in politics, especially in Israel with 120 Prime Ministers, who are stabbing one another in the back constantly, we cannot possibly know what the end result of Netanyahus’s actually will be. He holds his cards really very close to his chest, and is under the most unbearable adverse pressure on matters that absolutely hinder hisefforts to give best service to the State. Yamit, I believe has his own reasons for hating Netanyahu, maybe from an experience he had with him in the past, where he felt let down. Yamit shows as a pretty straight guy, and political trickery would immediately turn him off.
I just don’t know, but this is not “business as usual”. I feel that there’s a lot more underneath it all, like the main body of an iceberg that we don’t see. It’s a most dangerous time for Israel, I think the most in my lifetime and I’ve lived through the beginning of the State, because, enemy activities are now not local as before and well within the vision of Israel, but almost world or continent wide, and they’re well enough armed to completely eradicate out little country, regardless of any second strike damage we might do. We require more than just military force, and the only extra we have between us and them is Netanyahu, and the favourable connections he has made in the US and other countries.. It’s like a sword of Damocles.
@ Felix Quigley</
Sherman with his proposal massive money incentives is indeed making the Arab interlopers comfortable…don't you think, that the money angle points to comfort-making….???
@ Felix Quigley:
Just as a piece of trivia I remember Eddie very well. I remember an inocuous looking fellow with glasses who had no snow runs to practice on and uses a home made slide of cardboard. I believe I heard him in a few interviews as well. Very plucky to face the derision and laughter. He didn’t care he said, he was entitled to compete.
Once more the fate of the Jews for a long time to come depends on Netanyahu but in Netanyahu unfortunately I think of Eddie the Eagle…Wiki Quote “Michael Edwards (born 5 December 1963), known as “Eddie the Eagle”, is a British skier who in 1988 became the first competitor since 1928 to represent Great Britain in Olympic ski jumping, finishing last in the 70 m and 90 m events.”
Going through that door that Trump has perhaps inadvertently opened for Israel will also open up a vista of more security and real progress, safety quite obvious for Jews, but can he go through it…Never!
The door stands for the Sherman policy of allowing those sane Arabs in Gaza and elsewhere to leave and get away from under the clutches of the Islamic warlords. But Bibi will never get through the door.
Consider a large magnet which is trained on the rear end of Bibi. The magnet is in fact “Stupidity? Inertia? Wishful thinking? Fear of being seen as bullies? Fear of being boycotted? Fear of provoking the Arabs? Fear of the Supreme Court? Fear of the Leftists in the justice system?” (words of Sebastien Zorn this very site)
The magnet that has to be smashed but how?
As always I think of the great thinker and fighter…
” Don’t you think that Spain may go through the same cycle as Italy, beginning with 1918–1919: ferment, strikes, general strikes, the seizure of factories the lack of leadership, the decline of the movement, the growth of Fascism, counter-revolutionary dictatorship? The regime of Primo de Rivera was not a Fascist dictatorship because it did not support itself upon the reaction of the petty bourgeois masses. Don’t you think that as a result of the present indubitable revolutionary ascent in Spain, with the further passivity and inconsistency of the proletarian vanguard as a party, the conditions for genuine Spanish Fascism may he created? The most dangerous thing in such a situation-is the loss of time.”
(Seems to be some sketches of thought on Spain in the 1936 period…https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1931/spain/spain03.htm)
Use a little leeway here. This is ALSO Netanyahu and Bennett with making the Arabs comfortable and happy etcetera from which Glick does not depart one iota. Wrong in every way, opposed to Sherman in every way, and above all opposed and oblivious to the concept of time.
What Trotsky writes is exactly what Netanyahu is doing and it always does catch up. That is because TIME is always the factor. People think of it as being applied only to human personal individual life. But it applies in spades to political events and organizations.
We are losing it and Yamit is right in his disgust with Netanyahu. I back him on that.
I say Trump has opened the door, indirectly opened the door, and ultra bankrupt Bibi refuses to go through.
Why not go through the door? Here the words of Sebastien have great application. There IS a reason for everything. Every Thing can be explained.
I wrote nearly two years ago that Trump would win, that he would open the door in a new way to Israel, that this would pose challenges to the present cabal, that they would fail to meet the challenge a Trump victory in the election would bring.
I am no genius but is that not what has and is happening?
Trump has not broken one promise to Israel. He has not went back on one word he said in the election. He HAS opened the door but the present lot cannot walk through it because they are and always have been politically bankrupt. All without exception.
They cannot walk through that open door for the reasons Sebastien put so well.
It does centre on this key issue. Caroline and Bennett and all these, just shut up. Now let these sane Arabs get out. Help them out they want it so badly they do not even money…just the muscle power against the warlords of Islam.
I also said that Glick being with Breitbart is a bad thing for Israeli future. Trump is aware of these positions and if Glick is not challenged head on will follow her. Is following her even now. As regards Infowars Jones is politically paralysed and always has been, just an entrepreneur. A political eunuch with quite a following.
@ Bear Klein:
Lets not go all floppy. That is policy of our real political enemies. That road is the road of disaster. You have read position of Martin Sherman on this yet never voiced your opposition to him with clarity. That is a policy of complete disaster. Read what Sebastien says “Stupidity? Inertia? Wishful thinking? Fear of being seen as bullies? Fear of being boycotted? Fear of provoking the Arabs? Fear of the Supreme Court? Fear of the Leftists in the justice system?”
That is your answer. That is the key answer that needs to be focussed on to challenge those like Glick and Bennett who are the real enemy at the heart of the issue.
Let them leave and away from the clutches of the warlords. That IS the answer.
If you disagree with that key policy of Sherman state why? Your silence and diversion here shows that you do disagree otherwise dodge what I wrote…
@ Edgar G.:
Edgar I fought for a line in the last election that Netanyah must be voted for in order to keep out Labour and Yamit came at the end to that position, as did all. This is always the case with Netanyahu, and it is very common in political history, it is often necesssary to defend but at the same time prepare an alternative. All are correct here. Trump is being pounded and is getting little support even from our friend Martin. Trump did a great thing on Jerusalem and has had little thanks. He will see it like this.
To shorten this Yamit is not really over the top on Netanyahu because he sees like me that he represents the status quo and that that in the end will bring disaster. That is the key…the policy of dodging bullets will bring total disaster. I have launched a new website trotskyist.org and despite our rightful differences we should be fighting in a united front…if we have any sense…but in a way we are.
Bottom Line Israel should explain to its American Friends that the Pals are not capable of running their own state and we no longer believe in the two state concept as it would be a disaster. We appreciate the USA help and would like the USA to support Israel as it applies Israeli Civil Law to all Jewish Towns/Cities/Settlements in Judea & Samaria.
https://www.debka.com/mivzak/white-house-no-west-bank-annexation-plan-discussed-israel/
@ yamit82:
I see that you don’t like Netanyahu…..actually you execrate him. but don’t you think your vehemence is a bit “over the top”…?? Like an obsession… I’m sorry to see this because you are one of the few posters that I enjoy reading the most.
I suppose you have your own reasons which we don’t know about and that’s O.K.
@ Bear Klein:
It’s highly unlikely that Netanyahhu lied, he is far too careful of his relationship with the U.S. It’s far more likely that there has been some mix up in communications in the White House, a not uncommon event these days. It’s more likely than that Netanyahu openly lied, when he obviously would know that he’d be immediately shown up as a liar. His whole makeup shows great care not to be shown as such, even though he accepts certain things and then later cancels them, which, in politics, is not the same thing. I can’t recall that he ever openly said something, and then denied that he had. O course I haven’t been tracing every single word he says/said.
No other Prime Minister in Israeli history would have been able to get us through the Obama years without extreme material damage, the way Netanyahu did. He accepted insults and slights of the sort usually bestowed on Jews in the Ghetto in the oldene days, “but stuck it out” and restrained his own “hotheads”..
So there are times when be may be “ambiguous” or seemingly on one side or the other, and then reverses. There is always a good reason for it, just like his most recent holding up of the Sovereignty issue, wanting to get the O.K. from the Us first. …..
@ Bear Klein:
Every President including Trump has been opposed to sovereignty. Sovereignty means downgrading the Palestinian Arabs back to a refugee problem to be solved. No autonomy, no statehood, no giving territory to Jordan or Egypt, nothing. Why is it so hard to believe that Netanyahu has been feeling the heat consistenly from the White House?
Only Huckabee was sympathetic. Trump is just an improvement.
@ Sebastien Zorn:
I believe White House because Bibi has been playing one game after another on not voting on annexing settlements. Now he has says the bill needs to come from the government and not an individual MK. Pure B.S. He wants status quo. This is a matter of deduction and following a Bibi’s pattern of behavior on this matter. It is not a matter of USA versus Israel.
Read the arrogant Hubris of this stupid and ignorant jerk!!.
President Donald Trump is not convinced that either Israel or the Palestinians are committed to peace, he said in an interview Sunday with Israeli daily Israel Hayom
“I would say the Palestinians are not looking to make peace, they are not looking to make peace. And I am not necessarily sure that Israel is looking to make peace,” he said, before adding, “So we are just going to have to see what happens.”
Trump said that the deal he plans to unveil will be the “only opportunity” for peace.
I also think it would be very foolish for the Israelis if they don’t make a deal. It’s our only opportunity and it will never happen after this,” he said.
“I think both sides will have to make hard compromises to reach a peace agreement,” Trump added.
Trump also gave rare criticism of settlement construction in the West Bank, departing from the views of others in his administration who have said that the settlements do not constitute an obstacle to peace.
“The settlements are something that very much complicates and always have complicated making peace, so I think Israel has to be very careful with the settlements,” he said.
http://www.breitbart.com/jerusalem/2018/02/12/trump-neither-israelis-nor-palestinians-looking-to-make-peace/
I think this makes it very clear that BB is a Bull shitter, a pathological liar even a traitor. He does not want to annex Y&S, maybe not even the settlements he is a lackey of the Americans and that is true for all admins. If he can get away with it politically he will give up everything not from ideology or even patriotism but as the most corrupt PM in our history he cannot be trusted and besides his BS and manipulations he is doing the bidding of those who claim his primary loyalty either out of fear expediency or profit…. I hope he gets indicted we need to be rid of him soon….. he never could say no to Obama and that goes double for Trump…. Trump will demand he pay in kind for recognizing Jerusalem as our capital,
And even Trump. Remember when he said that the embassy would not be moved within the year more like three years. Now it’s by the end of next year.
Nikki Haley said Jerusalem is not off the table, repeating what Trump said about not prejudging borders, but she put in such a way as to contradict that first statement.
It’s really not obvious who to believe, who to trust. I trust Shaked. Mostly.
Sovereignty should go through regardless. Time to stop deferring to foreign powers. End the diaspora, No more ghettos, ghetto Jews.
We can’t be sure of what Trump thinks unless we hear him say it himself or read it in his Twitter account. He has Deep State people around him who lie. Remember how they tried to walk back his recognition of Jerusalem?
@ Bear Klein:
Took you long enough to come around to my thinking in past 10 years about BB, till now you were a loyal defender of that POS and the LIKUD!
@ Bear Klein:
How do we know who is lying? Note, the article said the White House contradicted him, not Trump, even. I refuse to side with a foreign government, even if it is my own, over the elected government of Israel, in any case. Shameful the way so many Jews sided with Obama not just because of his policies. Israel first.
White House says Bibi lied and he has not been talking about annexing settlements.
He will Now be in the shit even with much of the 30% of the population that believes in him. So he plays one game after another not to apply or annex anything in Judea/Samaria.
Israel needs a new leader from the right who will do what is needed and say what is needed. Bibi will play any game to keep the status quo.
@ Felix Quigley:
Stupidity? Inertia? Wishful thinking? Fear of being seen as bullies? Fear of being boycotted? Fear of provoking the Arabs? Fear of the Supreme Court? Fear of the Leftists in the justice system?
I can see things moving in a very bad way and rapidly. The fact that Caroline Glick is part of the Breitbart machine is a factor because the Trump Government may go in that direction. Trump is following the Bennett idea that you create good “infrastructure” and you will create good Arabs. Pure dung actually!
I asked a question and I ask it again here
“What holds them back from adopting plan of Martin Sherman when the Arabs in Gaza only want to move and get out? What?”
Address that and you have the solution if you have the fortitude for the answer.