Following is an excerpt from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s remarks at the start of the weekly Cabinet meeting today (Sunday, 24 November 2013):
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“What was achieved last night in Geneva is not an historic agreement; it is an historic mistake. Today the world has become a much more dangerous place because the most dangerous regime in the world has taken a significant step toward attaining the most dangerous weapon in the world. For the first time, the world’s leading powers have agreed to uranium enrichment in Iran while ignoring the UN Security Council decisions that they themselves led. Sanctions that required many years to put in place contain the best chance for a peaceful solution. These sanctions have been given up in exchange for cosmetic Iranian concessions that can be cancelled in weeks. This agreement and what it means endanger many countries including, of course, Israel. Israel is not bound by this agreement. The Iranian regime is committed to the destruction of Israel and Israel has the right and the obligation to defend itself, by itself, against any threat. As Prime Minister of Israel, I would like to make it clear: Israel will not allow Iran to develop a military nuclear capability.”
bernard ross Said:
IT’S TRUE!!!
dweller Said:
I dont need an answer to show that you are a liar and evader. The existence and truth of G_D’s commandments and dictates do not depend on whether I sin or not. In fact, your attempt to move the discussion from G_D’s commandments to my sinning is your usual tactic when you are caught with your pants down. You ask me this irrelevant question so as to avoid your ridiculous statement that “some of those living when Jesus was alive would still be alive at his “second coming”. I simply asked you to prove that ridiculous statement by naming a couple of those people still alive today. as you could not answer the question you cast the light also that Jesus made the same statement and the fact that NONE of those are alive today proved that he lied also. ADMIT YOUR LIE OR NAME THOSE STILL ALIVE
dweller Said:
Liar, Liar, pants on fire! Only yesterday you told this lie:
bernard ross Said:
Follwed by this slimy, devious,, obvious evasion of a liar caught in the act demonstrating that you are not only a liar bu a liar who will do anything to avoid admitting the lie and to maintain that lie:
Since then you have have been evading the admission of your obvious lie because it proves your Jesus also lied. Do you still maintain that there those still living from the time of Jesus’ first coming? If, so prove it and name them. I guess when everybody died who was alive then, whatever few Jews left who bought the Jesus myth had to abandon it as the final proof that he wasn’t coming back along with not fulfilling the torah prophesies.
Admit your lie or name those still alive from his “first coming”
@ bernard ross:
Nothing to evade. You’re just sloppy.
Really? You see no connection?
— Amazing.
Another one of your intentional, disingenuous, lying evasions.
Nonsense. Answer the question.
No error, no poetry. If you want an answer to YOUR question, then first answer mine.
Gotta go. It’s midnight here.
@ yamit82:
THAT’s your answer to my question???
— “Highly unlikely,’ according to whom?”
Not in the gospel account.
How does one commit ‘libel’ or ‘slander’ against somebody who isn’t named?
Perhaps so. But it does not, ipso facto, constitute established truth either. It remains hearsay.”
The hearsay of the many, the hearsay of the few — it’s still hearsay. If you accept that hearsay, you accept it on FAITH.
Christians can point to numbers of witnesses too, witnesses to not only the resurrection of Christ, but also to that of many who were known to have died already (some, perhaps many centuries earlier).
— Still — as with those who witnessed the Sinai events — the Resurrection witnesses are not running around TODAY making such proclamations; if one takes their testimony, one takes it on faith. No way around it, Yamit, in EITHER instance.
You can’t prove one either. You accept it or you don’t.
No.
Some of it is. But the part that IS seems credible enough to me to accept it, notwithstanding that it’s hearsay.
Other elements of it are grounded in hard evidence; hearsay unnecessary.
@ yamit82:
If it doesn’t apply to you, then you can’t ‘violate’ it.
But that wasn’t the question I asked BROSS above [previous pg]. I asked him if he wasn’t constantly violating them. Obviously that could apply only to those which WERE applicable to him.
Again, you beg the question. What he said [above] about doing the will of the Father in heaven did no ‘dishonor’ to his parents. Quite the contrary, it recognizes the kinship of all who submit themselves to the direct leading & guidance of the One who gave them their parents.
He knew when he was going to die long before the time came. (And his parents probably knew that too.)
@ yamit82:
It’s only a “cult” insofar as its devotees regard haNitzri as divine
— and therefore proceed to make their religion about HIM personally instead of his religion.
That is something that’s “been said” about LOTS of things. Some in fact were; some weren’t.
Your “park” must be your bathroom. Does it have so many windows that you can afford to keep breaking them this way?
But I do NOT agree. It ISN’T fictional.
Nonetheless, I DO think it’s about time you read it — dispassionately — as an inquirer, not a partisan.
@ yamit82:
Maybe questions were asked. The fact that the scripture doesn’t record that, of itself, has no bearing, one way or the other, on the genuinenness of the exposition or the veracity of its testimony.
They probably did check there first — once they got back to the City.
“After 3 days” very likely means “ON the 3rd day” — one day shlepping N to the Galil, one day returning S to Jerusalem, and then the 3rd day poking around till they found the kid.
Is there a point here? — He was a 12-yr-old.
What were you like at 12?
— or have you forgotten what it was LIKE to be 12?
No, they knew he hadn’t been schooled formally. What was shocking was that his understanding was far superior to those who had. He was rather obviously a prodigy of sorts.
Then too, the narrative gives no indication as to what kind of guidance he might’ve received in that regard from Joseph.
It’s evident that you’re just looking for scars, Yamit. You have no interest in genuine inquiry. You’re simply not honest.
Show me an instance of his condemning the scriptural law ITSELF as distinct from its administration or application.
Your charge is not supported by the gospel record.
You’re begging the question, assuming facts not in evidence. I haven’t told any lies (mythical or other).
@ yamit82:
Those “methods” neither remit nor absolve. Ultimately they amount to devices & stopgaps, at best.
How would you know?
The only “made up bullshit” here is your dumb-assed, thoroughly ignorant take on it.
He did NOT leave home alone to travel to Jerusalem. I told you, he was separated from his parents while IN Jerusalem.
The gospel plainly says the whole family, which by then would’ve consisted of probably 9 persons, made the annual Pesach trip to J’lem (caravaning with probably much of the Nazareth community) — and that after the feast was over, the boy remained behind sitting among the teachers & partaking of the nosh & drosh; that the family, probably now occupied with attending to his 6 younger siblings, hadn’t noticed right away that their eldest child was missing.
Why don’t you actually READ the freakin’ narrative for once (what a concept!) & quit speculating on your own inane, bonehead fantasies?!
@ yamit82:
The point was that Sefer Ha’Ikarim is not scripture, merely opinion.
None; they were written after Torah & N’viim were compiled. (Not Kh’tuvim, however.)
Kind of like what you do HERE, with YoursTruly?
Flat-out wrong.
Actually, in a perverse kind of way, that very superlative is evidence of his truth. Who would wage war in a lesser name?
Half-right. Half-wrong. He was anything but a man of FALSE peace, of dishonest peace (“they cry peace, peace, where there is no peace”) — the peace of agreement for the sake of relief from pressure & tension. He had no use for a bogus peace, a spurious peace.
He was saying that from that time forward, one would have to take a stand. One could not henceforth be indifferent to him.
yamit82 Said:
Dweller breaks out in gospel hymn!
yamit82 Said:
Fortified with plagiarism.
dweller Said:
How many Messiahs were mentioned in Jewish scripture?
Ans 38
how many were “THE MESSIAH” Zero
Even Cyrus King of Persia was called Messiah. Every high Priest Many Generals, and many of the Kings of Israel and Judah. If you were to go back in time to Jerusalem and ask any passerby where is the messiah, he would answer: Which one.
Tell us about your pre Jewish messiah and how he can be identified?
A “messiah” is someone who has been “anointed” (and this word does NOT have a double-n). “Anointment”, or smearing with the “Oil of Sacred Anointment” (see Exodus 30:22-33), was the ceremony that took place at the coronation (or enthronement) of a Hebrew king; this compound of spices and olive oil cannot be separated from “anointing” because even its name— shemen mish’hat kodesh (by which the oil is called twice in Exodus 30:25 and again in 30:31, and also with slight variations in Lev 10:7 and 21:12) uses the word mish’hah, which is effectively the same Hebrew word as mashiach, a “Messiah”. The new testament writers are strangely silent on this point, not even trying to pretend that it was ever done to their Yéshu character. So christianity’s “anointed person” never was actually “anointed”… in other words he was not, in fact, an “anointed person” at all—christians get around this inconvenience by simply inventing different “definitions” of what the words “messiah” and “anoint” mean—but they are hard-pressed to supply Scriptural texts to support their phony, artificial “definitions”.
King Sha’ul and King David were both “messiahs”, and they were both the results of normal, natural births: we know the identities of both fathers, and both of these two kings had several older brothers (so their mothers were obviously not “virgins” when they were born)!
Divided missions? Who said that and where does it say so? Is this one of your mystical concoctions????
You will not find the Jewish Messiah named in all of the Tanach and haNitzri is meaningless/ no such Hebrew animal. You know that but your imigination sometimes overflows but never overwhelms. Quite stupid in MO.
So G-d is the biological father of yeshu? Sounds more like a fertility rite story as in maybe Dionysus, Mithra and a whole pantheon of others. What else you got since we are now in ex-biblical territory here.
A- that’s not what Paul said or even intended by the text and context. B- If he meant what you say then he want against G-d’s direct commandments and wishes. Jews were given the Torah to obey and observe them, instructions for Life and by doing it is the way a Jew emulates G-d and gains little by little understanding of the nature of G-d ‘NA’ASEH VE-NISHMA’
He not only contradicts the Torah and the G-d of Israel he contradicts his own Idol god on a tree messiah. Funny religion you guys got. Very eclectic, you steal from everybody and come up with a mixed salad, colorful but without meaning,consistency and certainly without a smidgeon of truth.
Several assumptions made not in evidence direct or implied. Adam while in the Garden was not human. He only became a human prototype once outside of the Garden Duh.
Besides the whole narrative is allegorical and not specifically unique to Judaism… The teaching to be derived from the narrative is uniquely Jewish. Curious that you attribute everything-in Jewish scripture to a literal standard with pagan interpretive emphaisis but when it comes to the Texts and characters in the christian scripture 90% of your answers are interpretive and apologetic. 🙁
I know that but you quote them as authoritative. I don’t care except your stupid lame attempts to graft them into Judaism and our scriptures. If christianity can’t stand alone on it’s own theological feet then it’s not even a real unique religious belief. I call it identity theft.
Dweller said:
Every time I post these verses you conveniently ignore them….. I can understand why. 🙂
Deu 4:32-40.
For ask now regarding the early days that were before you, since the day that God created man upon the earth, and from one end of the heavens to the other end of the heavens, whether there was anything like this great thing, or was the likes of it heard? 33-Did ever a people hear God’s voice speaking out of the midst of the fire as you have heard, and live? 34.- Or has any god performed miracles to come and take him a nation from the midst of a[nother] nation, with trials, with signs, and with wonders, and with war and with a strong hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with great awesome deeds, as all that the Lord your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes? 35.- You have been shown, in order to know that the Lord He is God; there is none else besides Him.
No faith here Jews saw and heard, not one or two Charlatans but a whole nation of some 3000000. You can say where is the proof. Then you will have to deny the basis for all your christian beliefs. Jews are the unique ones as we are the only such nation with a national revelation, never happened since or will.
37-. and because He loved your forefathers and chose their seed after them, and He brought you out of Egypt before Him with His great strength, 38-. to drive out from before you nations greater and stronger than you, to bring you and give you their land for an inheritance, as this day. 39.- And you shall know this day and consider it in your heart, that the Lord He is God in heaven above, and upon the earth below; there is none else.
What does in your veedddy Veddy youshka thinking consider the word FOREVER TO MEAN?
Dust off your water wings you are going to need them…. 🙂
dweller Said:
“hearsay from the jews seems more credible than hearsay from the NT. There is nothing in the jewish bible to warrant a Jews accepting the narrative that jesus is the jewish messiah. This can only come from christian sources. If you choose to give credibility to the NT of christians as opposed to the jewish bible it merely demonstrates you are a christian. If your god spoke to you in an epiphany or dream declaring Jesus to be your messiah then you are a christian. It appears that your god only spoke to christians regarding Jesus being the jewish messiah, which is in itself very odd.. For some strange reason he has not spoken to Jews to notify us of the changes to his prior revelations to His jewish people. After all, these are major changes to his prior commandments. How odd, I wonder if it got lost in cyberspace or at the post office.
Do you believe that it is through jesus that you receive your salvation?
dweller Said:
Is there a point in this statement or are you just “alluding”.
dweller Said:
not what was asked: How did he fulfill the hebrew prophesies according to jewish sources. What he set out to do means nothing in terms of a Jewish messiah.
Bernard Ross Said:
I did not ask for your long winded life story, or an exhibitionistic display of your massive ego or your psychobabble. I asked a simple question which you continue to intentionally evade, as usual.
Bernard Ross Said:
On the contrary, there is no need to deny Alice in Wonderland, The Hobbit, your psychobabbling projections or your ludicrous NT narratives. You are always denying but your denials regarding your honesty,etc have proven false. As Shakespeare observed, contrary to your assertion regarding silence and denial, “Methinks he doth protest too much”. Shakespeare describes you to a T, you deny everything but your denials establish nothing. Your repeated claim of honesty has been proven BS, therefore all your other claims are suspect in credibility. GIVE US THE NAMES OF THOSE STILL ALIVE TODAY FROM JESUS’ FIRST COMING as you previously averred in agreement with jesus; or were you lying when you made that statement; perhaps it was a “packaging” error.
Yamit Said:
Pot, kettle, black, I am still waitng for the names of those who are still alive, and will be alive, when your messiah returns. Just give us the names of those still alive today who were alive when your messiah came the first time.
Yamit Said:
According to dweller Hashem issued his commandments with no expiration dates and therefore it can be interpreted to be expired when it comes to the christian narrative he touts. I suppose the ten Commandments also have a 3 week or 100 year expiry date, take your pick. it is abundantly clear that dweller has the same tactics as other christina missionaries and like his predecessor paul has “packaged” himself as a Jew. Like the other missionaries he will find any torturous path to portray his christian messiah as the jewish messiah. yet there is nothing jewish in his christian narratives, all his stories come from the NT, no jewish sources, and in order to accept his narrative one must give the Torah expiration dates. His reason for accepting the christian narrative of jesus as the jewish messiah is his epiphany. I wonder where that came from?
Bernard Ross Said:
Another fraudulent, lying, slimy evasion of the question which obviously disproves your ludicrous narrative. I notice you keep applying the same evasive tactic to all the obvious rebuttals to your narrative. The usual Dr. Joyce brothers masquerade which uses red herrings of attacking me in order to throw everyone off track. You evade because you have no answer and you cover that fact up with your intentional evasions. Pathetic.
Bernard Ross Said:
another ludicrous, slimy , disingenuous, dishonest evasion using ad hominem from the fake who never ceases to tout his own honesty and perfection.
dweller Said:
this reply typifies the evasive, lying, disingenuous nature of your character. Whatever sins I commit has nothing to do with His commandments and dictates. You know FULL WELL that this is not an answer so you try to evade it with a pathetic ad hominem retort. You sink lower and lower as you smear yourself with more fecal matter than tawana brawley. He who always touts his own honesty and purity is a petty fraud who needs to cover his crap like a pussy cat in a litter box.
dweller Said:
Another one of your intentional, disingenuous, lying evasions. an honest person might have admitted error or exaggerated poetic license but your massive anal retentive ego forces you to “package” your replies in slimy and tricky evasion. You said that “some were still alive” as did he. I asked you to name them and you cant, so you run away leaving your evasive and dishonest drippings behind. You, your narrative, the Hobbitt and Alice in Wonderland have the same degree of credibility.
dweller Said:
I suppose this statement is as credible as your other ludicrous protestations.
dweller Said:
Were they named ? Any of them? Were his accusations and criticisms specific?
No,they were libelous, slanderous and stereotypical. Lashon Harah Death penalty applied for this avarah (transgression)alone.
The Bible declares that the role of the Chosen People is eternal and we are mandated to be “witnesses” for all time. What did we witness? How can we bear testimony?
Only the Jews out of all peoples and religions claim a National revelation s opposed to individual revelations like christianity and Islam. Only a national revelation cannot be disproved as a lie. 30000000 witnesses who were shown that they and future generations will KNOW as opposed to faith. Jews Know, christians have faith.
Deu 4:32-40.
For ask now regarding the early days that were before you, since the day that God created man upon the earth, and from one end of the heavens to the other end of the heavens, whether there was anything like this great thing, or was the likes of it heard? 33-Did ever a people hear God’s voice speaking out of the midst of the fire as you have heard, and live? 34.- Or has any god performed miracles to come and take him a nation from the midst of a[nother] nation, with trials, with signs, and with wonders, and with war and with a strong hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with great awesome deeds, as all that the Lord your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes? 35.- You have been shown, in order to know that the Lord He is God; there is none else besides Him. 36.- From the heavens, He let you hear His voice to instruct you, and upon the earth He showed you His great fire, and you heard His words out of the midst of the fire, 37-. and because He loved your forefathers and chose their seed after them, and He brought you out of Egypt before Him with His great strength, 38-38. to drive out from before you nations greater and stronger than you, to bring you and give you their land for an inheritance, as this day. 39.- And you shall know this day and consider it in your heart, that the Lord He is God in heaven above, and upon the earth below; there is none else.
.
In over 3300 years if this story is a lie then who in the chain of transmission claimed it was? You can’t fake a National revelation like your yeshu story.
Are you a holocaust denier as well. You were not there so is it hearsay? http://www.simpletoremember.com/media/a/bearers/
dweller Said:
The Written Torah (Mosaic Law) contains 613 precepts (mitzvot)), and no person can possibly comply with the entire set. This is because various commands pertain to different groups of people. For example, some precepts apply only to males (e.g., circumcision), others only to females (e.g., feminine hygiene); some apply only to Aaronic Priests (e.g., permitted marriages), others to those who own land in Israel (e.g., rotating the crops), etc. Therefore, anyone who claims to have fulfilled the Mosaic Law in its entirety is either ignorant or a liar.
dweller Said:
Liar, Liar pants in fire 🙂
Matthew 5:17-19(KJV) – (17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
“Whether yeshu actually lived up to this declaration is tested in the following analysis. Going on the premise that the historical yeshu existed, it should not come as a surprise that many statements attributed to him throughout the Four Gospels are consistent with Jewish teachings. After all,it is likely that yeshu, coming from a family of Pharisees and being exposed to this tradition, held to it and practiced Pharisaic (i.e., “Rabbinic”) Judaism. In the Gospel of Matthew, yeshu acknowledges
the authority of Sages and “Rabbinic” Judaism of his day: Matthew 23:1-3(KJV) – Then spake J’ to the multitude, and to his disciples, (saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
[See also Mark 10:17-19, Luksh 16:16-17, John 14:21.]
Read From: A. Did Jesus act in accordance with Torah?
Honor and respect of parents According to the Fifth Commandment
In the Decalogue, children must honor their parents: Exodus 20:12 – Honor your father and your mother; in order that your days may be prolonged upon the land which the Lord, your God, gives you.
[See also Deuteronomy 5:16.] Noteworthy is the reward for keeping this Commandment – a long life –the only Commandment in the Decalogue with that reward! The Torah also commands us to revere our parents: Leviticus 19:3 – Every man shall revere his mother and his father, and keep My Sabbaths; I am the Lord, your God.
The Gospel of Matthew contains the following account: Matthew 12:46-50(KJV) – (46) While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring tospeak with him. (47) Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. (48) But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? (49) And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! (50) For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother [See also Luke 2:42-50; John 2:3-4.]
Perhaps because Jesus did not honor is parents, he did not enjoy the reward of a long life on earth as promised in the Fifth Commandment
In the Tanach will we find any mention of “The Messiah” or “yeshu” “your and christian concept of “seytan” “a new covenant replacing the old? “And in which book of T’N’Kh will we find the books of “Matthew, Mark Luke and John”??
Sefer Ha’Ikarim was written as a response to christians forcing Jews into disputations they were not allowed to win, and to narrow as much as possible the basic principles and truth of Judasim showing differences between Judaism and the lies upon which the cult of christianity is based.
Proverbs 30:4
mah shmo? umah shem b’no
!ki téda
What is his name and what is the name of his son, if you know?
“Do not add to His words, lest He prove to you, and you be found a liar.” Mishlei – Proverbs – Chapter 30
Yéshu never brought peace to anyone, and more wars have been fought in his name than in any other… on top of which, he was anything but a man of peace: he himself said
dweller Said:
Judaism has several methods for personal and community absolvement and remission of sin. Your yeshu ain’t one of them nor is it a function of the Jewish ‘King Messiah’. We even have a built-in safety net called Yom Hakippurim. “ya’asu kaseder hazeh” (Exodus Sh’mot 34: 4-7)
Totally Babblat!!!!! No parent would allow a 12 year old to leave home and travel to Jerusalem, no small distance form his home town alone to study at the temple for 3 days. Never done in those days nor would be even today. Made up bullshit about your dead messiah…. Are we to believe that yeshu learned in the Temple for three days and nights without sleeping? Are we to believe that no one was concerned with who this strange child was or where his parents were? No! In fact if a strange child suddenly appeared in the Temple without his parents, many questions would be asked. Understanding the very curious nature of Jews would make such an incident impossible.
yeshus’ act of disappearing for three days without informing his parents {Joseph and Mary} of his intentions was a serious violation of the commandment to honor one’s parents. {Luke 2:41-52} This commandment applies EVEN IF ONE DID SPEND THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS LEARNING IN THE HOLY TEMPLE! A good action like learning in the Holy Temple DOES NOT supersede the commandment of honoring one’s parents. G-d who gave the Torah would NOT encourage a child to learn in the Temple as opposed to honoring his parents!
Next, consider if your child disappeared, what would you do? The normal parent would check with close relatives, friends and playmates to determine the child’s whereabouts. The normal parent would search for the child in places that the child frequents. We have no reason to believe that Joseph and Mary did anything different from what any normal parent would have done under such circumstances. As a result, why didn’t they search for yeshu in the Holy Temple FIRST? The answer is simple. yeshu did not have a pattern of learning in the synagogue, house of study or the Holy Temple. If he had, then his parents would have searched there first!
Mary corrects the naughty child for his wrongful actions as any proper parent would do to a child who had disappeared for three days…
Later we read, “yeshu left there and went to his hometown, accompanied by his disciples. When the Sabbath came, he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were amazed.
Where did this man get these things?” they asked. “What’s this wisdom that has been given him, that he even does miracles! Isn’t this the carpenter? Isn’t this Mary’s son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren’t his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him. yeshu said to them, “Only in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own house is a prophet without honor.” {Mark 6:1-5}
The fact is this passage points to a much more serious problem. Those who knew yeshu recognized him as an unlearned man FROM A TORAH PERSPECTIVE!
This is evident!! Only an unlearned man who had not studied Torah from a child up and who had NOT learned in a Yeshiva would harshly condemn Jewish law as yeshu did.
It is not enough that yeshu condemned Jewish commandments but he preached things that were opposed to Torah law. Men that knew yeshu… Men that studied Torah… These men were, as it says in Mark, offended by yeshus’ ignorance… and his supposed miracles…
Just as a child is required to honor one’s Torah observant parents as opposed to studying in the Temple, one is required to honor the Shabbat as opposed to creating on Shabbat! yeshu was instructed to observe Jewish law from childhood by his parents, according to Luke. In addition, yeshu was required to observe Jewish law in accordance with the Torah. He did neither!
Why are you using your christian bible narratives to substantiate your mythical lies???? It has been said that the christianity cult is “a lie built on a mountain of deceptions”. Keep throwing softballs and I will continue hitting them out of the park.
I keep saying it is a fictional narrative with no divinity attached. Finally you agree. 😛
@ bernard ross:
So you don’t break His laws? — and constantly, at that?
@ bernard ross:
Actually it’s your “drippings” I’m showcasing — and there’s nothing vain about it; it’s succeeding quite well, as you are clearly aware.
No room there for both of us, Bernard, and you seem to have taken up residence there.
No need to disprove, yes. I placed “disprove” in parentheses [above] because it was indeed parenthetical.
But to deny? — nothing parenthetical about THAT. Qui tacet consentire. “Silence gives agreement, consent, etc.”
Told you: I never resort to scripture of ANY kind to “prove” anything. So your ‘laughter’ in that regard is empty.
Nor yours.
I’ve no time for mirrors; and no PLACE for fantasies. You’ve evidently got me confused with somebody closer to home
— maybe the guy who talks to you when you shave?
Looking in the mirror won’t do that unless you do it while flogging that pesky weasel of yours.
—THEN all bets are off.
I’ve told you why, half-a-dozen times or more. (If your memory’s flagging, try gingko biloba — or maybe a shot of B-12.)
It surely wasn’t reading the Biblical prophecies (let alone, getting preached at about them) that persuaded ME that the messiah had already been here
— so, why would I conclude that doing that would persuade other Jews?
Like you, I was pre-programmed & predisposed — thru generations of social conditioning — to ignore any approach to the subject via the intellect. Showing me scripture verses as a means of explaining how haNitzri had fulfilled prophecy only triggered in me INSTANT denials as to the meaning of the verse, or the translation of the verse, or the authenticity of the verse, etc, etc — again & again & again.
I even got to the point where I could SEE myself doing it — but I still had to do it.
In the end, the realization came via a completely different route: one which the proselytizers had never considered, and for which they could never take ‘credit.’
But that ISN’T the Xtn “version” (let alone, mine). He did “finish” what he set out to do.
@ yamit82:
Yes, sinless.
Not so. When he visited Nazareth on Shabbat, during his ministry, he was called up for an aliyah.
When he was 12 yrs of age, and was separated from his parents during Passover, he was found in the Temple disputing elements of Torah with learned types and astounding them with his understanding.
— It says he spoke “not as the scribes” — viz., not by rote — but as one having “authority”: He knew what he was talking about.
Such as?
They are not “cruel instructions,” nor intended as ‘laws’; only an imbecile would take them literally. These were simply examples of using exaggeration to make a point. In this case, the point was to keep focused on the purpose you are here, and not let attachments of various sorts keep you from that focus. He made the same point again & again using other metaphors as well.
It’s only a “serious problem” for somebody with an axe to grind. You’d prefer that he didn’t make the sick well on Shabbat?!!!
It certainly wasn’t uncommon for somebody to drop everything on Shabbat to recover a lost sheep or goat. (Was that ‘creating’ too?) But giving an ailing or dying human being his life back is, OTOH, not acceptable?
— This is stupider than stupid. You’ve got your priorities up your arse.
NT isn’t constructed as a legal brief. It had no such intent. It was written based on the reflections of ordinary people.
“Highly unlikely,” according to whom?
Better get started then; time’s wasting. So far, you’re batting “.000”
Ah, the old standby: When nothing else works, declare him a concoction.
@ yamit82:
So? I haven’t disputed that importance.
What’s more, the ton of verbiage that accompanied this line had NOTHING to do with the post you referenced it to.
— whom are you addressing it to, and for what reason?
So do I. Nonetheless, it remains hearsay. You weren’t there, and neither was I — except metaphorically — not literally.
— Therefore, if you believe it happened, you take it on faith, and nothing but.
1. God does not lie.
But you do lie.
2. The covenant made at Sinai, and the one made before it with the Patriarchs
— are not identical.
3. Whether the Sinai covenant — or for that matter, the patriarchical covenant — is still in effect is strictly peripheral to the question of whether it was in fact made. There is no independent proof that Sinai ever occurred. If you accept that it did, you do so on faith, and nothing else.
No, it is NOT “only logical.”
It’s an easy matter of turning that on its head. For instance:
‘If the God of Israel intended the Sinai convenant to be permanent & everlasting in all circumstances, He would have included language within it which made clear that its provisions were to be “unto all generations,” or similar such phraseology.’
Rabbi Albo should’ve told that to Rebbe Akiba. Jewish sovereignty might not have been lost for 18 centuries.
And in which book of T’N’Kh will we find Sefer Ha’Ikarim”?
@ bernard ross:
Not at all. I’m simply identifying yours.
Can’t speak for Dr Joyce, but I don’t entertain fantasies — of any kind, sexual or otherwise.
The Gospel. You should be able to find a copy in a used bookstore someplace.
@ bernard ross:
How would that help?
For you, BROSS, peace will never so much as begin to “reign” till you give up your anger & envy. But he DID bring interior peace to many, and continues to do so — the only peace which can offer a sound foundation to the broader peace among the nations, which is yet to come.
“petitio principii”? — suddenly YOU are concerned that somebody may be begging the question?!! petitio principii is YOUR baby, fella; hands down! In fact, the only person on this site who comes close to doing it as often as you is Yamit.
I never quote scripture to ‘prove’ anything, only to illustrate.
If I believed you, I’d be more than happy to provide examples.
But I know you well enough to NOT believe you. What you are, in fact, “interested in” is argumentation.
— I’m not.
yamit82 Said:
Exactly. Certainly he would not expect us to take the instructions to break his laws from some disgruntled jews and pagans.
Bernard Ross Said:
LOLLMAO 😛 😛 😛
dweller Said:
with all your thinking, you’re arranging your words and sentences graphically in a vain anal compulsive attempt to showcase your drippings: it still comes out ridiculously foolish, like a robotic parrot repeating back to his master like this “polly want a cracker” pathetic reply:.
Bernard Ross Said:
and like this ludicrously fool statement:
dweller Said:
Get your dunce cap and go to the corner. Unless you have early onset alzheimers even you are aware that the onus is on you to support your psychobabble, there is no need for me to disprove your assertions whose only basis burts forth as projections from your fantasy ridden mind. The same with your yeshu comments: your ridiculous resort to the NT to prove the existence and behaviors of Jesus is laughable on this Jewish site. Perhaps your memory is slipping and you can’t remember all those fallacies with latin names. Unlike G_D your mere utterance does not create a fact. I think that mirror you keep watching is addling your brain.
How about telling the Jews here how your messiah fulfilled the qualifications as expounded in the jewish bible, you never dealt with that; or perhaps you agree with the xtn version that he is coming back to get right what he did not finish the first time?
dweller Said:
SINLESS JESUS? 🙂
Those who knew yeshu recognized him as an unlearned man FROM A TORAH PERSPECTIVE!
It is not enough that yeshu condemned Jewish commandments but he introduced laws and taught cruel instructions in the New Testament like cutting off one’s hand or plucking out one’s eye if it was a source of offense.
Such cruel instructions are a violation of G-d’s commandments in the Torah AGAINST damaging or marking one’s own body. Inflicting damage to one’s own body is a heathen practice that yeshu taught. {Matthew 5:29, Mark 9:47}
Men that knew yeshu.. Men that studied Torah… These men were, as it says in Mark, offended by yeshu’ ignorance… and his supposed miracles..
Yeshu is quoted many times in the New Testament speaking evil {lashon hara} and causing pain with words {onoat dvarim} about the High Priest {Kohen Gadol} and about the Jewish Court {Beit Din}, etc. New Testament’s record of frequently using unverifiable reports and often quoting unknown sources, it is highly unlikely that any of yeshus’ accusations against the Kohen Gadol and the Beit Din are founded.
If yeshu was instructed to observe Jewish law from childhood by his parents, according to Luke (Luksh). In addition, yeshu was required to observe Jewish law in accordance with the Torah. He did neither!
He said what he said period. 😛 Read it again if you stil have doubts. I can supply you with hundreds of other similar quotes from Paul who even contradicts your messiah guy on a tree. He said many things I didn’t post in contradiction. He said at different times to obey the law and to disobey the law a true liar and fraud a real gentile SOB and based on his Torah knowledge he was not a Jew and I don’t care what your stupid book says as it’s so full of lies and contradictions It requires you to reinterpret every word in the book when it makes no sense or puts your BS heroes in a bad light.
G-d of Israel says obey the Law and your Roman fellow says nope it ain’t necessary anymore. He knows better. No wonder the Jews ran him out on a rail. Lucky they didn’t kill him, they must have thought him mad and left him to his own madness. That they didn’t string him up from a tree like yeshu was probably because he was never in the Holy land at all and from his ignorance of Judaism of that time it’s clear to me his bio is more mythical than real. A literary invention.
@ dweller:
Around 1700 Years Before youshka was Born, G-D Made It Clear ‘Why ALL THE NATIONS OF THE EARTH’ Would Be Blessed Through ‘ABRAHAM’S DESCENDANTS’:
GEN 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
GEN 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Around 1200 Years Before youshka Was Born, G-D Transmitted Hsi Law To The Children Of Israel, Through MOSES, THE GREATEST OF ALL PROPHETS.
THE FOLLOWING PASSAGES SHOW THE IMPORTANCE G-D PUTS ON HIS LAWS:
DEU-5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
LEV-19:37 Therefore shall ye observe all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: I am the Lord.
LEV-20:22 Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out.
LEV-25:18 Wherefore ye shall do My statutes, and keep My judgments, and do them; and ye shall dwell in the land in safety.
LEV-26:46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the Lord made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.
DEU-4:1 Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord God of your fathers giveth you.
DEU-4:8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?
DEU-5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
DEU-11:1 Therefore thou shalt love the Lord thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, alway.
DEU-26:16 This day the Lord thy God hath commanded thee to do these statutes and judgments: thou shalt therefore keep and do them with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
DEU-30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
AROUND 1000 YEARS BEFORE youshka WAS BORN, G-D TOOK THE KINGDOM OF ISRAEL FROM KING SAUL BECAUSE HE DID NOT FOLLOW G-D’S COMMANDMENT:
1SA-15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
1SA-15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
AROUND 970 YEARS BEFORE JESUS WAS BORN, ON HIS DEATHBED, KING DAVID SAID THE FOLLOWING TO HIS DESCENDANT SOLOMON:
1KINGS-2:1 Now the days of David drew nigh that he should die; and he charged Solomon his son, saying,
1KINGS- 2:2 I go the way of all the earth: be thou strong therefore, and shew thyself a man;
1KINKS-2:3 And keep the charge of the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and his testimonies, as it is written in the law of Moses, that thou mayest prosper in all that thou doest, and whithersoever thou turnest thyself:
Every orthodox Jew and many conservative and even non observant Jew believes in the NATIONAL revelation at Sinai. The basic Jewish argument to you christians says in effect that since G-d is not a man and does not lie, the covenant made at Sinai and to our patriarchs is still in effect. That if the G-d of Israel intended to rescind and nullify the Torah and the covenants with the Jewish people it is only logical that G-d must reassemble every Jew as he did at Sinai and tell us himself. If the principles of the Torah are true then the messiah is not an integral part of Judaism; and whether there exists or will exist in the future a Jewish Messiah, Judaism is not predicated on the existence or non existence of same messiah. ‘He is not a first principle not part of the Jewish core trunk and not even a twig,’ according to “Rabbi Joseph Albo”. (Sefer Ha’Ikarim)
dweller Said:
HMMM Guess I missed that book, what’s its name?
dweller Said:
how many times is he coming? Sooner or later he should get it right.
dweller Said:
this is where all you christian missionaries go wrong. You should have hijacked the hindu bible. You have this perennial problem of basing your new testament on the Jewish bible and then you are stuck with those pesky jews that need converting or killing. Even better you should have come up with your own, made from scratch messiah, and then you could come up with any fantasy without having to run it by the Jews.
dweller Said:
could you name a couple?
dweller Said:
Then your jesus should have got it right the first time to qualify as Messiah. I notice that peace did not reign the last 2000 years since he made his one and only try.
considering your protestations that you are a Jew and not a christian you certainly have a lot of NT quotes to support your narrative of Jesus, especially that he got it right the first time. I was more interested in whether he fulfilled the Jewish Messiah criteria outlined in the Jewish bible. Quoting the NT is kind of similar to petitio principii, begging the question, circular reasoning, BS.
dweller Said:
Dr. Joyce, you are projecting your own fantasies again
Bernard Ross Said:
Pathetic Polly want a cracker???
Bernard Ross Said:
right! lets ask the fictitious character if he got it right the first time……….Guess what, the fictitious character said yes……I read it in his biography 😛 😛 😛
dweller Said:
only virtually??
dweller Said:
He lets me be the temple dancer!!!!!
@ bernard ross:
You confuse ‘mimicry’ with mockery.
The first bespeaks flattery.
— The second, contempt.
His God was/is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
— And He never gets it wrong.
Quite so; I already made that observation.
There’s only ONE messiah — not a “Jewish messiah” as distinct from a “Christian messiah”
— he was promised long BEFORE there such things as “Jews” (let alone, “Christians)
And the one messiah is a Jew — Y’shua haNitzri.
Nope, I never said anything like that. He accomplished his mission the during first visit, and will ALSO “get it right” on the second visit.
Different objectives for each advent.
The Yamit cult seems bent on hijacking Judaism, and you have plenty of time for that.
LMAO. Arguing isn’t my M-O, Bernard.
— It’s yours.
wELL, you keep accusing me of it. What should I do, let your BS stand unchallenged?
You NEED to believe that.
You concoct ‘traits’ to fit your fancy
— but mostly Yamit’s.
You are one sick puppy.
@ bernard ross:
No such thing on this end, Bernard.
— “Despair” is just another species of emotionalism (and just as perversely self-indulgent as the others).
“Foolish statements”? Like what ones? Haven’t made any such as would need covering. Hasn’t happened yet online.
Unlike Yamit, your idol, I think about what I write BEFORE hitting “post” — I don’t go off half-cocked.
No, actually, whenever I get just a little too close to pulling your covers, Bernard, you always resort to calling me an amateur shrink
— though curiously enough, you’ve yet to deny (let alone, disprove) the ACCURACY of my assessments as to where you’re at.
@ yamit82:
Apparently so, since my EXPLANATIONS for those concepts are forever eliciting your comments to the effect that you never heard of them before
— they certainly have nothing in common w/ the take reflected in the Xtn commentaries.
You made a good start, but then got lost. Ruach elohim is not a Klingon.
Nope, not “shortly”; never said that. He merely said that some of them would still be living when he returned.
— And some, I venture to say, still are.
Now you’re back on track. (All’s well that ends well.)
Hell, I could point to several Jewish sheep who are moronic enough to believe the likes of PresentCompany.
— Given THAT, who knows what else might be possible. . . .
@ yamit82:
Horseshit. Obama did nothing BUT lie. You can’t justly make a comparison.
Now, why would he teach a thing like that when it’s perfectly clear that Y’shua himself not only did obey the law, but also taught that it must BE obeyed?
It’s patently evident that you read into Paul what you find convenient.
— But the truth — discovering it OR telling it — is the last friggin’ thing on your mind.
Yeah, dummy, he’s saying that the law — which comes with punishment for disobedience — is not necessary for the just man, because HE doesn’t need to be coerced to obey it; he does so naturally.
He was saying that all the law can do is hem you in, so you don’t go off the deep end in one direction or another
— but that it has no power to make you a better man. If you want that, then you’ll have to go beyond mere obedience to the law.
That will require attention of a different sort, and will have to be focused elsewhere.
No. No. No. No. No.
He did not say it was “NO LONGER IMPORTANT.”
— He was actually saying it was no longer enough to merely obey the law if a man wanted to align himself with the will of God.
Grace isn’t about flouting the law. Grace is about the moment-to-moment walk that a believer has with God’s moment-to-moment leading.
Someone who lives by Grace does not violate God’s law — but instead of his attention being focused on God’s law, his attention is instead focused on God Himself, who, in turn, will not LET him violate the law.
Yes.
Yes.
Yamit.
@ bernard ross:
Not at all; it was good advice.
Is it? I wouldn’t know.
(Somehow though, I gathered that YOU rather liked watching yourself whipping your weasel in front of the mirror. You surely seem the type.)
Does it indeed?
@ yamit82:
He did.
— What’s your point?
@ bernard ross:
No, he’s much smarter than that.
He tempts all men’s pride to believe they have the power to generate their own thoughts when it is actually HE that is doing that
— so that when they find themselves entertaining all kinds of horrendous fantasies, they won’t, in that moment, acknowledge their helplessness — and thus won’t call upon a Power greater than themselves for relief, for wisdom & for direction.
Because as long as they fail to do that, they are his. That’s how “the Accuser” wins.
Yes, you do seem to have worn yourself out constructing it.
@ bernard ross:
“You people”? — what “people” would that be? — if there are others you know about, perhaps I should compare notes with them.
@ bernard ross:
Got what ‘wrong’?
He said, “I have glorified You on earth; I have finished the work which You gave me to do.”
That hardly sounds like somebody who ‘failed’ at something.
What “deception”?
And what ‘mission’ would that be? — convert the gentiles?
Not very in your case, Bernard.
— I had you sniffed out virtually from Day One on this site.
You “fear” I will have difficulty? No need for “fear,” shmendrick.
— If you genuinely think I’m targeting Jews for ANYTHING (let alone, for ‘convincing’ them of the gospel), Bernard, then you haven’t got the brains of a dimestore dildo.
@ bernard ross:
But I don’t advocate abstinence (let alone, “profess” it); never have.
All I said was that going without sex doesn’t kill you. (It doesn’t.)
But you’re threatened by hearing that, because you need sexual releases
— to relieve the arousal generated by guilt, esp the guilt of anger. (Yeah, it does do that.)
Really, Bernard? — so then, is THAT the reason you have a thing for little boys? — because the big girls won’t give you a tumble?
(And here I was, thinking you just couldn’t tell them apart.)
@ yamit82:
Far sooner from him than from you.
Of course not — to somebody who had his mind made up from the jump.
No, Yamit, YOU are a deceitful liar.
Again, this sounds WAY more like you than him (in every particular).
Not a Roman.
He was a JEW — the star pupil of Rabban Gam’liel — and a Jew who happened to be the possessor of Roman citizenship: a powerful tool to have under one’s belt in the ancient world
— and a privilege which was enjoyed by lots of Jews of his day.
That’s hardly the same thing as being a “Roman.”
@ yamit82:
No, you ignoramus. The “triune theological concept” refers to the purported ‘Godhead’: Father, son & Holy Spirit — all of whom are supposedly ‘divine.’
— I don’t subscribe to that; never have (and you KNOW that).
What bilge. I don’t take ‘sides.’
You don’t have the balls to trust the truth to lead you, and you assume that — like you — everyone else is necessarily partisan. Well, not everyone is.
I follow wherever the truth leads
— because I trust the Giver of all truth.
Wrong again, as usual. I didn’t say I ‘reject’ it. I simply said it isn’t authoritative; it’s not scripture, and shouldn’t be treated that way.
— Christian commentaries aren’t authoritative either; I’ve said that too, countless times.
The scripture wasn’t written for scholars, but for MEN. The greatest of the great would agree with me, not you.
Yes, feared. Took seriously; related to directly, as if he expected to BE heard. The fear of God… the beginning of wisdom, and all that. (What’s your problem? does your noodle turn to mush in the wee small hours, and if so, why can’t you just get to bed earlier?)
Conscience is God’s personal embassy in the foreign country that is the present world. That ISN’T dependent on “education , culture and beliefs.”
Neither. My final authority is the God who reveals Himself
— nobody else.
— no thing else.
Where they are concerned, I’m with Groucho.
Why would I WANT to get away from calling myself what I am?
I think it’s YOU who have crossed to the other side — the dark, evil side.
@ yamit82:
In addition to haNitzri? — Well, let’s see now:
There’s the widow’s son raised by Elijah.
Then the Shunamite’s son raised by Elisha.
The dead man tossed into Elisha’s tomb, revived by the bones of Elisha.
The widow’s son who lived in Nain, raised by haNitzri.
The Synagogue ruler’s daughter, raised by haNitzri.
Lazarus in John 11, raised by haNitzri.
Then there are “many bodies of the blessed,” in Matt 27, who (in some cases, over the millennia) had died trusting in Moshiach’s coming — and which were raised after Christ’s own resurrection and “were seen of many.”
— Their graves had flown open at the moment of his death, and their souls had returned to their bodily remains (& reconstituted & reinvigorated them) when haNitzri returned. [Matt 27:51-53]. Apparently his soul had brought them with him.
Then there is Tabitha (also called Dorcas) in Acts 9, who was raised by Peter.
Also, Eutychus raised from the Dead at Troas [Acts 20], by Paul.
Then too, it is quite possible that Paul himself was resurrected after he was stoned & left for dead in Acts 14:19-20. It says, “He rose up.”
— Was he actually KILLED by the stoning, and lying dead till then? — Unclear.
Anyway, that’ll do for starters, in answer to yr dumb-assed question.
Right, and since Cain’s wife isn’t mentioned in the Hebrew scripture either, I guess he didn’t have one.
— Either that or the Jews must’ve gotten their “primary notions” from — ooh, dunno — maybe Oprah?
Nobody that God spoke to on that day is alive TODAY to be cross-examined — and if they were alive today, their testimony (whether from 3 million or from 3 billion) would constitute nothing more than hearsay.
In the end, if you believe the narrative, you take it on faith. It always comes down to that.
In THAT respect, Judaism is not ‘unique’ among religions.
@ yamit82:
According to Nachmanides, too (for what it’s worth).
— What’s more, Maimonides says something quite similar (since HE seems to pull your chain too).
Nonsense. I’ve answered that many times. But you insist on hearing only what you want to hear, and disregarding everything else.
Y’shua haNitzri had the same “biological father” as Adam.
Had the biological father been anybody else, then haNitzri would’ve shared in the same fallen nature as all the rest of us ever since Adam’s disobedience.
Precisely, half-siblings. (So?)
All younger.
Oh, yes they do say. The gospel clearly states that Christ was her first born, and that she remained a virgin till after he was born.
The only thing “startling” is that you keep repeating that rot even after it was already refuted. Repeating it doesn’t make it any more so than it was the first time you wrote it.
The scripture does NOT say they “thought” he was “insane.” It says that they SAID he was distraught. Does not say why they said it, only that they did say it.
— Says nothing at all about what they “thought.”
Who ever said he was a “half-breed human”? — Not YoursTruly.
It’s obvious that no answer would EVER be ‘satisfactory’ to somebody who isn’t prepared to hear it.
— I’ve never said or suggested that he was/is anything but a man — a WHOLE, 100-percent man — but he was/is a special man, a unique one: created specially, for a special reason.
yamit82 Said:
😛 😛 😛 😛
Your story makes a lot more sense AND its original
@ yamit82:
Got tie for sweller and not your Bee whats dweller got that I ain’t??????????
dweller Said:
Very original dweller thinking examples.
Satan is the devil (evil)
Original sin and the fall of mankind
youshka is the Jewish messiah
The Jewish messiah is a savior of mankind if…..
this messiah guy was born of a virgin, impregnated by a Klingon then executed by hanging on a tree, rose from the dead after promising his folloers to return shortly even in their lifetimes, and dweller is still waiting for the big event.
Very Very original thinking dweller??? 😛 😛 😛
Original thinking would be: bicycle riding dwarfs led by head dwarf Dopey the smartest of the twelve managed to con a bunch of mutants into believing he was some sort of mythical folk hero took all he could con out of them and then disappeared leaving them high, dry and and destitute after getting them to give up all their worldly possessions 😉 The poor sheep having been fleeced were so embarrassed by their own naivety and stupidity that they made up a cover story of some supernatural resurrection so that they would not be laughed out of Judea. Couldn’t have been Jews because even the most moronic among us are not that moronic.