DIFFIDENT ISRAEL
by Steve Kramer (www.encounteringisrael.com)
Jews have a large number of mitzvot (commandments, obligations) to live by, 613 to be exact. Many of the mitzvot are archaic, having to do with sacrifices and other duties in the Temple which was destroyed by the Roman in 70 CE. Others are more prosaic, such as following the dietary laws or living in Israel. One more fierce commandment is taken from Deuteronomy 16/17:
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“However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.
Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, … as the Lord your God has commanded you.”
When the Jews entered Canaan to fulfill their destiny in the Land of Israel, they failed to thoroughly observe this commandment, allowing a remnant of the pagans to survive.
In my opinion, modern Israel must not be afraid to destroy its enemies, or at the least to eradicate their ability to make war. After all, the Arabs and Iranians are Islam’s spearpoint aimed at Israel’s throat. More than one thousand years ago, Jews were advised: “If someone comes to murder you, anticipate him and kill him first” (Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 72a). The Sanhedrin was composed of the 71 most brilliant sages in Israel. They knew what they were talking about! Let’s review recent history in light of this ancient Jewish wisdom.
Israel’s declaration of independence unleashed a concerted effort by the surrounding Arab states to destroy the Jewish state. Unlike the previous decades, when Arab mobs had often attacked Jews, in May 1948, armies from five Arab states invaded the new state. Their cry was to slaughter the Jews and throw them into the sea. Israel won the fight for its existence with difficulty. At that stage, it didn’t have the ability to destroy the Arab forces.
It was a different story in 1967. During the Six Day War, Israel captured all of the territory east of the Jordan River which Jordan had occupied and claimed for itself, and the Golan Heights. Israel had the ability to annex Judea and Samaria (which King Hussein had named the “West Bank”), but mistakenly expected the Arabs to negotiate a peaceful settlement to regain most of the area. (Israel did annex the Golan Heights in 1981.)
Two examples of naive liberalism from this period, both perpetrated by Defense Minister Moshe Dayan, stand out: “We have returned to all that is holy in our land. We have returned never to be parted from it again,” Dayan proclaimed, upon reaching the Western Wall in Jerusalem. Nevertheless, he immediately ceded internal administrative control of the Temple Mount compound to the Jordanian Waqf (Islamic trust) while maintaining Israel’s overall security control of the area.
Because the Waqf controls the Temple Mount, Israel lacks full control of the Old City of Jerusalem. The Palestinians have been able to hinder Israeli efforts to protect and maintain the ancient construction on the Temple Mount. In addition, the Waqf has destroyed untold numbers of artifacts dating back to the First and Second Temple periods. This, while continuing to proclaim that a Jewish Temple never existed in Jerusalem and that Israel is “Judaizing” the city, whose Jewish connection stretches back 3,000 years.
Kalkilya is a large Arab city close to Alfe Menashe, where I live. It is about 10 miles from the Mediterranean. During the Six Day War the inhabitants of Kalkilya fled eastward to escape the victorious Israelis. Incredibly, General Dayan “issued orders to the Israeli paratroopers to rush to the Jordan [River] and bring the Arabs of Kalkilya back.”
Kalkilya was a hotbed of terrorism after the Six Day War and was even ruled by Hamas at one time. Only the ability of IDF troops to make incursions into the city has prevented Kalkilya from being a cause of constant conflict with Israel. Regardless, it is situated adjacent to Israel’s main north-south highway, just minutes from the Mediterranean. Because Kalkilya is part of the Palestinian Authority, Israel’s width in the Metropolitan Tel Aviv area is only 10 miles!
In both cases, Dayan’s good intentions were ill-founded. Dayan believed that the Palestinian Arabs would act in good faith and live peacefully with the Jewish state – a serious miscalculation. But the PLO’s attacks on Israel began in 1964, three years before the Six Day War. What “territories” was the PLO fighting to regain? They were Haifa, Tel Aviv, Beersheba, and everything else within the Green Line, which is not a border, but merely the armistice line which was drawn during the negotiations ending the War of Independence in 1949.
The Yom Kippur War of 1973 resulted from a lapse of attention towards our enemies’ capabilities and intentions after Israel’s lightning victory in 1967. The First Lebanon War of 1982 introduced Iranian influence into the region with the birth of Hezbullah in southern Lebanon. In the Second Lebanon War of 2006 Israel again failed to destroy its enemy’s offensive abilities, after first allowing Hezbullah to arm itself to the teeth in the interim period. UN Security Council Resolution 1701, which ended the war, was hailed by Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni as a great accomplishment, when in effect, it was worse than useless. Its adoption marked the first time in Israeli history that Jerusalem had sought a UN resolution to end a war. Despite 1701, Hezbullah was able to increase its arsenal with impunity, so that its stock of rockets became greater than before hostilities began.
Operation Cast Lead (2008/9) was a direct result of Prime Minister Sharon’s ill-advised withdrawal of troops and expulsion of Israelis from the Gaza Strip in 2004. The Hamas terrorists copied Hezbullah and, with Iran’s help, built their own arsenal of rockets with which to pummel Israel. But Israel’s limited military operation only deterred the Palestinians for a few years. Hamas increased its arsenal and continues to shoot thousands of mortars, rockets, and missiles into Israel. The short-lived campaign against Hamas in 2012 ended with the usual ceasefire. Israel damaged the terrorists in Gaza but declined to deliver a knockout blow. With current speculation about a possible attack on Iran precipitating an avalanche of missiles into Israel from Gaza and Lebanon (and possibly Syria), military sources speak about a possible war of at least three weeks with hundreds of Israeli casualties, rather than an much quicker, no-holds-barred military onslaught against Israel’s enemies.
The Two-State Solution with the Palestinians is a non-starter. Unfortunately, there may be no solution to this conflict for generations, because it involves most of the Muslim world. A bad solution would be worse than no solution, because it will not end the jihad against the infidels (Jews and Christians). The ancient commandment upon Israel to eradicate its enemies is not archaic. It may be the only way for Jews and their Muslim neighbors to come to a modus vivendi.
So who do you hate more?
@ CuriousAmerican:
Sure I can.
@ Alanjo55:
Postulates:
It is impossible for the Jewish Scriptures to be false and the Christian scriptures to be true.
It is possible that the Jewish scriptures are true and the Christian scriptures not true.
ie, it’s impossible for the paslms to be false and galtians to be true.
All Christians 1 min. before the crucifixion agree that the only religion at that time which was true was Judaism.
Deu 4:27 And the LORD shall scatter you among the peoples, and ye shall be left few in number among the nations, whither the LORD shall lead you away. 28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men’s hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.29 But from thence ye will seek the LORD thy God; and thou shalt find Him, if thou search after Him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
Deu7 The LORD did not set His love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people–for ye were the fewest of all peoples–
contradicts Matthew 23
“The woman said to him [Jesus], ‘Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain; and you say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.’ Jesus said to her, ‘Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for Salvation is from the Jews.'” (John 4:19-22)
“As far as the Gospel is concerned, they [the Jews] are enemies on your account; but as far as Choice is concerned, they [the Jews] are beloved on account of the [Hebrew] Patriarchs. For, God’s Gifts and His Calling are irrevocable.” (Romans 11:28-29)
Sub axiom: If before Jesus crucifixion Judaism was true according to Christian theology, then when Jesus is not found to be the real Jewish Messiah Judaism will stand alone as the true faith. Zechariah 8:23!!!
Yamit cannot decide if he hates Allah or Christ more.
Yamit, I always thought the Jews didn’t care but by what the rabbi says, they do and perceive it as a huge problem with so many Jews becoming believers in their Messiah and becoming heaven bound. There are millions of Muslims becoming believers in the Jewish Messiah also. Many Muslims are seeing the Messiah in dreams and turning to Him for salvation and on the way to heaven. The Muslim Imams call it ‘The Great Catastrophe.’ It’s quite amazing how people can condemn other people for being heaven bound. It sounds a little selfish and close minded.
@ Alanjo55:
What did you think?
Yamit, thank you for posting that talk by the rabbi. I didn’t know the Jews feared the Christians so much.
Yamit, thank you for posting that talk by the rabbi.
@ Laura:
<a href="Your are mistaken“>You are mistaken
Hagee Preaches the Gospel from the Aish HaTorah Rooftop
Hagee, Aish, and Interfaith Respect
@ CuriousAmerican:
I won’t diss your comment here but will respond on point to Sever Plocker, Ynet article from 2006/ Apparently you had to search for examples of what you believe to be moral equivalency btw Jews and Christians. I am aware of the history but first note. Plocker is an ideological socialist once communist and past editor of the now defunct Labor party (then Mapai) newspaper ‘DAVAR’. Stalin’s (sic) Jewish Bolsheviks may have been born Jewish or part Jewish but none of them identified themselves as Jewish,had anything to do with anything Jewish, Hated Judaism and other Jews more than gentiles and murdered proportionally more Jews than gentiles.
EXcept for the accident of birth none of those Bolsheviks identified themselves or thought of themselves as Jews, and most of their Jewish contemporaries who knew about them disassociated any religious and cultural connection to them and even cursed them more than their Christian and Communist persecutors. In history the worst and most virulent anti-Semites were Jews, by birth. Even Trotsky turned his back on the Jews even his own family and father who died in abject poverty and illness. Zev Bronstein is a prime example of love of ideology and power over family and extended family. He did though stop Pogroms by Russian Christians against the Jews but probably more out of ideology than for love and concern of Jews as Jews.
Christians murdered Jews A- because their theology inspired them to do it. B- The Church dehumanized them C- Jews were an easily definable minorities in their countries of residence with no rights. D- Jews were weak and for the most part non violently passive, they were easy prey E- Christians saw in persecuting and murder of Jews a means of wiping out debts to Jews and a way to confiscate any available Jewish wealth F- Jews were targeted by Christians as a means of distracting the masses from internal secular or ecclesiastical rivalries known as scapegoating.
Christians persecuted and murdered Jews as Christians, in the name of Christianity and out of theological Christian hatred of the Jews. Your attempts are showing moral equivalency is what modern antisemites use to exonerate themselves from the Nazi atrocities against the Jews by comparing the State of Israel to the Nazis. If the Jews are the same or no better than the Nazis then the guilt of Christian Europe is expunged from their collective and individual consciousnesses.
Your message and methods of argument is essentially no different.
I do not deny Israeli priority. What ticks me off is Yamits arrogance
Fine, but the West Bank is common parlance. I use Judea and Samaria a lot of times, but most people, except maybe here, and in Israel, do not understand what Judea and Samaria means.
I am NOT defending the Palestinian claim, but like it or not, Golda Meir and Abdullah I of Jordan struck a deal dividing the land in 1948. Even MK Eldad has admitted this on this video JORDAN IS PALESTINE.
The sad fact is that Golda Meir gave the West Bank to the Jordanians in a pre-arranged agreement in 1948.
Golda Meir wanted the Jordanians to take the West Bank for fear that the pro-Nazi Mufti Hajj Amin al-Husseini would take it over.
The sad fact is that there was a deal struck between the founders of Israel and the Jordanians to take the West Bank. The only real point of contention, as MK Eldad explains, was Jerusalem.
I do not like saying this. But it is true. Watch the video.
So the “West Bank” is as much an invention of the founders of Israel as it is an invention of the Jordanians.
Israel has a better claim to the land; but the Palestinians were not invented 50 years ago. In 1920, in Chile, the sons of Palestinian immigrants from Beit Jala and Bethlehem started a soccer team called the Palestinos (Palestinians) in 1920 in Chile. They thought of themselves as Palestinians in 1920.
They did not call the soccer team the South Syrians nor the Syrians. They called the team the Palestinos. IN 1920.
Now, true they were in Chile, but the fact remains that they identified themselves as a Palestinian ethnic group in 1920. This means the term Palestinian was being used in 1920 by ethnic Arabs.
Video about this Chilean team
PALESTINOS 1920-2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hh-_gRpGJ28
(the video has a pro-Palestinian spin, but the fact remains
this team was founded in 1920)
It was founded by immigrants to Chile from Bethlehem and Beit Jala who called themselves Palestinos in 1920.
Israel still has a better claim, but there was an identification of Palestinians which pre-dated 1948. It was strong enough to surface in Chile in 1920 among their descendants.
Israel may have the better claim; but be careful with facts.
The fact is: There were Arabs from Bethlehem and Beit Jala who identified themselves as Palestinians in 1920.
Even though Israel has a better claim, you cannot deny that some sense of Palestinian identity was at work long before the 1964 and the formation of Fatah.
I know you can produce Arabic quotes otherwise, spoken by idiotic Arab leaders; but the fact is, I can produce quotes by Arabs long before then speaking of Palestine.
If there was no Palestinian identity in 1920, why did the sons of immigrants in Chile call their team the Palestinos?
You will better make Israel’s case by not denying facts.
I do NOT deny Israel’s priority, but neither will I deny history.
Your tally is off. The numbers may be closer than you think.
READ THIS ARTICLE BY SEVER PLOCKER, a ZIONIST JEWISH WRITER AT YNET.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html
The vast majority of the victims were Christians.
But more importantly, are you out of your mind?
Are you going to have a contest of “Who has bigger tyrants?”
I brought this up only to counter your holier-than-thou supremacism.
Israel has a better claim to Jerusalem.
Israel does not have a better claim to human beings; no nation does.
Human nature is remarkably consistent and ugly everywhere.
I am not saying Israel’s claim is morally equivalent to the Muslims.
Israel has a better claim.
What I am saying is that NO ONE HAS CLEAN HANDS – read Sever Plocker’s article above.
I do not deny Israel’s right to Jerusalem. What I deny is your right to a claim of superiority.
I just think that paying the Arabs to leave is better than war.
You operate from the position of “We are morally superior, and they deserve a beating.”
This is an atrocious attitude.
While the Arab claim to the holy places is a lie, many Palestinians are decent people.
Your calls for ethnic cleansing are atrocious. You seem to relish the thought of bloodshed.
I do not deny Israel’s claim to Jeruslam; but I suggest the Arabs be bought out rather than driven out.
@ CuriousAmerican: Yesterday a group of 51 Jews from our city in the North of Eretz Israel made a pilgrimage, as you may call it, (we call it aliah b’regel b’arba amot” to our Yehudah and Shomron Land of Israel. The Hebrew phonetic line is for the initiated only.
Our people has been living in that Land for over 3200 years. luther or hitler notwithstanding… And since Abraham Avinu for much longer…
In your tongue that Land is known as Judea and Samaria.
Push as you people may, the west bank is just a label invention of expelled foreigners. The Piltdown like “palasteneans” were also invented barely 50 years ago.
Two video recording experts taped the visit.
I know you will enjoy this report since it describes the Jewish people’s rotund triumph about to be concluded.
The trip started after boarding an ultra modern bus fit for the task of negotiating the Samarian and Judean mountains. Quite rugged even for modern transport.
After about an hour travelling South on the Rt# 6 super highway one turns East at about the Rosh Ha’ayin City exit. The Landscape starts to change from the relatively flat coastal plain to the first foot hills of Judea and Samaria. That would be on Rt.#5 also known to some as the trans Samarian highway. At a junction past a town called Sha’arei Tiqwah we picked up an expert young graduate from Bar-Ilan University, History and Biblical Department. We traveled via inner roads passing through several Jewish, Muslim as well as Good Samaritans villages. Our first official stop was at Mount Gerizim and its twin, Mount Ebal. Since CURIOUS is surely aware of historic facts I will only mention that those Mountains, about 850 meter high are also known as the Biblical Blessings and Curses Mountains, respectively. Geologically they were originally one peak that was split right at its peak forming two mounts. Separated by a menacing chasm…
Upon entering the Land of Israel after crossing the Yarden, Yoshuah ben Nun, from the Tribe of Ephraim called, about 3240 years ago, upon he people to hear what G.d had asked him to tell them right at the foothill of the Mounts. The narrative of the Blessings and Curses if failing to follow His Law, are on record in the Bible, TORAH.
The bus traveled through a Samaritan Village near the mountains foot. Samaritans follow Religious Laws very similar to Biblical Jewish Laws. Headed for Mount Gerizim up to the upper slopes vehicle parking area and then by foot to the peak. Hundreds of other Jews were there or arriving. Not all religious of or of any particular denomination.
The climb, even for powerful vehicles is demanding. From the top one sees the City of Schehem, also of Biblical renown. The Mausoleum of Yoseph is located there. Today it is a Muslim city, temporarily. From there to Elon Moreh, a Jewish town and on the way a look at the Eastern slopes of Mount Ebal, where the Yoshuah Ben Nun altar is seen.
Again climbed a mountain called K’bir and enjoyed the serene majesty of the region. Down slope is a water spring over which many a battle has been fought. It produces about 1/2 liter of water per minute… 🙂 There is a collecting pool about the size of a home small swimming pool and only two feet deep. Sometimes during the rainy season it drains into the SHILOH creek. We had lunch near that pool.
On to SHILOH. The Site of the first depository in the Land of Israel of the Ten Commandments Ark. I am sure curious knows that the Temple lasted there for over 300 years. It has been found.
The whole trip and our group’s plans for the near future there were video taped.
I may mention that as it is their custom, the Church and later the islam tried to erase the Shiloh Site by building two shrines of theirs near and on top.
They left and abandoned them. I visited the remains of both being kept for reference.
The Land is JEWISH curious. Anyone concocting plans is as doomed as all previous invaders. The newfangled Piltdown styled “palestinians” will also fade as others foreigners did before. We visited Itmar, Ariel and other Jewish towns in our Land.
We are returning with over 200 group members in a couple of months.
No “deals”, no flexing.
Why did you put something I never said in a quote of mine?
I am American, Christian, and my ancestry is North European.
I am suggesting a peaceful solution, as opposed to war.
But if you are so determined not to pay in money but prefer to pay in blood, go ahead.
Just don’t cry when it happens.
@ terence:
Sorry to see you survived the bite.
You must have had just a nightmare.
May all your bug bites be only the stuff of dreams, even bad ones…
Especially bad ones. 😉
Yamit- last nite I was bitten by a bed-bug. Why did that incident remind me of you? “These foolish things……….
@ CuriousAmerican:
When the Jews murder up to 20 million Christians we will be even. According to my tally we haven’t even scratched you Christians, not yet. A few red buttons pushed can remedy the unbalanced accounting. It’s you who employ the moral equivalency then compound it with sophist apologetics.
@ CuriousAmerican:
I get it you are an Arab who is looking for stupid Jews to pay you.
@ CuriousAmerican:
You have a case of the….?
Everyone has blood on their hands … DOES NOT EXCLUDE THE USA. Everyone means everyone.
Everyone has blood on their hands … DOES NOT EXCLUDE THE USA. Everyone means everyone.
I am not going to lose sleep if you driven the Arabs out by violent ethnic cleaning; but please do NOT tell me you are a better human being for doing so.
It is the supremacist attitude that bothers me.
The Arab is just as bad. I am not stupid.
He feels he OWNS the land just as much as you do. He says HIS GOD gave it to him.
What I suggest is that both sides stop with the moral posturing.
Forgetting claims of moral superiority, JUST BUY THE ARABS OUT.
Offer the young Arabs, the breeders, money to move to South America.
Are you trying to win a “I am better than you” contest, or trying to get the West Bank?
These things are pointless.
Jerusalem is its own victory. So buy the Arabs out, and stop posturing.
That is what I have been suggesting. Give every young Judean and Samarian Arab $100,000 in cash or in property to move to South America.
What is your issue here?
Arrogance. Victory comes from the Lord, not pride.
You make my case for me.
@ sheldan:
Sheldon you can’t both respect my perspective and then call it extremist.
Since you do not state what you find extremist I can’t very well respond to this point of yours.
Have you studied or even read the Talmud? Where in the Talmud does it negate any Torah prescribed offense or punishment of the specific offenses mentioned? Capital offenses were still capital offenses in the Talmud.
I am not baiting anyone. I was addressing Yamit82’s anti-Christian arrogance.
The fact is: Blood is ON everyone’s hand. No one has a right to claim moral superiority. NO ONE!
The Presbyterians and Puritans of the 17th century were philo-Semetic (but oddly violently anti-Catholic and anti-Anglican). So this is not a recent phenomenom.
But to prove my point let me refer you to an article by the very Zionist Israeli Jewish writer Sever Plocker
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html
I am not out to condemn anyone, but merely to point out that NO ONE CAN CLAIM MORAL SUPERIORITY.
Some of the stuff in the Talmud is ugly. Some of the stuff in Christian writing is ugly.
I was NOT baiting Yamit82, but merely responding to Yamit.
Does Yamit think he is better than Palestinians?
Some of them, yes!
Not all of them.
His attitude betrays a superiority complex.
If the Arabs were to drive the Jews out of Eretz Yisroel, you can bet they would move into Guerrilla war just as strongly as the PLO did.
Israel has a better claim to the Holy Land.
But Israel does not have better humans.
Human nature is reliably constant; and it is ugly across all spectrums.
Yamit82, I respect the perspective you have, but frankly you are coming across as extremist. If that is what you want, I respect that, but extremism is not going to help here.
Curious American, in your first response you asked some pointed questions regarding executions for offenses that would be “extreme” in the modern era. One thing you should remember is that there is a danger in reading the Torah literally. There is both a Written and an Oral Law, and the latter supplies necessary details for interpretation of the Torah. The Talmud is the record of the interpretations. Today, questions of observance are interpreted using the Oral Law, so it is possible to make rulings on subjects that were not in existence previously.
Maybe we can disagree without being disagreeable. I recognize that there are strong opinions voiced here, but I think we need some respect for each other.
@ CuriousAmerican:
So “CuriousAmerican” you think you are so sly coming to this site to bait some of the more zealous posters? You present selective and partial facts to support your assertions of moral equivalence between Jew haters of the Christian faith and some of our posters. Perhaps you need to educate yourself about over 2000 years of purposeful persecution of the Jewish people under the hands of Christians; persecution often sanctioned by Christian churches and authorities. Consider: http://www.heretication.info/_jews.html and consider http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_pers.htm
Christian support of the Jewish people and State of Israel is a more recent phenomenon.
Poetic Justice?! For whom?! For the Jews or the Christians whose co-religionists were slaughtered 5 years earlier by Jews at the pool of Mamilla and now had the opportunity to the slaughter the Jews who had slaughered Christians, five years earlier.
In weakening the Byzantine Christians, the Jewish and Persian alliance made an Islamic victory possible. Later this Islamic rule would conquer Persia (and you have Ahmedinejad, today), would conquer Christian Byzantium (and you have Islamic Turkey today) and this Islamic rule is what Israel is fighting even now.
Poetic Justice? Be careful!
It seems Poetic Justice was meted out to Jews, Christian, and Zoroasteran Persion alike.
@ CuriousAmerican:
you are right, I apologize for my misstatement of fact. But I was not in err about cause and effect, only the historical specific context.
The Jews gained national autonomy for 5 years but the Persians betrayed the Jews to the Byzantines who proceeded to massacre the Jews. Shortly afterwards the Arabs invaded and slaughtered the Byzantines. Poetic Justice?
I’m calm
I am not a supremacist. I am a Jewish Nationalist and make no apologies for that.
Everything I have stated is based on Torah Judaism and while there are other opinions I believe the ones I have stated are theologically correct. I will argue with another Jew over any differences but not with a Christian.
@ CuriousAmerican:
Elohim is a uniplural word.
Elohim
Should I care what you call me? Been called worse?
The Crusaders were in the 12th century, not the 7th. You are confusing cause and effect.
The Crusaders may have been payback for what the Jews did to them in the 7th; though that was still inexcusable.
You really need to calm down.
You are a Jewish supremacist, every bit as vile as a Muslim supremacist.
No doubt you think those massacres a good thing.
But what did it bring the Jewish people?
Because of the Jewish alliance with Persia, the Byzantine empire was weakened, as was Persia, by the wars, and both fell to Islam.
By taking vengance on innocent Christians (for crimes which none of them were personally responsible for – the crimes were committedf a century earlier) the Jews so weakened Eastern Christianity that Islam waltzed in.
In 637 AD, at the Battle of Yarmouk, a weakened Byzantine Army lost to Islamic invaders and the rest is history.
You didn’t want the Christians, so now you have the Muslims.
Sort of like Europe, which in the 1940s did not want the Jews, so now they have Muslims.
Seems like the Muslims always win with this idiocy.
But there is blood on everybody’s hand; not just us Gentiles.
I knew about Graetz and the Pool of Mamilla, but I did not want to get too deep into this.
Everybody has blood on their hands.
@ CuriousAmerican: Tell me curious. Were you around when Clinton executed many men, children and women defined as internal enemies in Waco, Texas? We lived a couple of hundred miles away. Do you want a list of similar cases?
Now lets talk a bit about many hundreds of thousands of NATIVE AMERICANS, murdered by US troops and free lance “hunters” at the calling of the US Government. Ever heard of the death marches? The US taxpayers finance to this day an under Secretary for “Indian” Affairs within the Secretary of the Interior delegation administering over 450 “Indian Reservations” all over the USA.
I visited three such Reservations in Bernalillo, Los Lunas and near I-25, Albuquerque, NM. Would you like some details?
Or rather start at home and fix those and other wanton crimes. Do you intend to play games with us, who OWN the land we reclaim as opposed to the US that ethnic cleansed millions to gain much of the US land today? NAH! That the islamics or their allies “gave” themselves or to each other portions of our Land means totally ZILCH.
Islam is a declared mortal enemy of ours and we must effect whatever is needed to neutralize that threat. As to the so called Gentiles… We have no interest on acting unless absolutely required against anyone else but… listen well and pass it along. Gunther Grass was informed today of his status here and also a general notice was given to one and all. Anyone or combination trying again, may do that but they will also cease to exist. Is that clear to you Curious?
Great.
Jews in Eretz Israel will eventually have to remove enemies within. We prefer them to leave and even would help them. Yet. If they try the slightest action , alone or in conjunction with others, they will regret their choice, all of them.
Topic ended.
@ CuriousAmerican:
You want history? Start with Bar kochba, who devoted some time and energy taking care of early Christian traitors and supporters of Rome.
In 610, the Jews of Antioch massacred Christians. The Jewish historian Graetz wrote:
[The Jews] fell upon their Christian neighbours and retaliated for the injuries which they had suffered; they killed all that fell into their hands, and threw their bodies into the fire, as the Christians had done to them a century before. The Patriarch Anastasius, an object of special hate, was shamefully abused by them, and his body dragged through the streets before he was put to death.
The Jews of Antioch disembowelled the great Patriarch Anastasius, forced him to eat his own intestines; they hurled his genitals into his face.
The treaty between the Jerusalemites and Caliph Omar ibn Khattab, concluded in year 638. In the Sulh al Quds, as this treaty of capitulation is called, Patriarch Sofronius demanded, and the powerful Arab ruler concurred to protect the people of Jerusalem from the ferocity of the Jews.
The Christian massacre by Jews of the AD 614 was the most horrible at least for Christians. In 614 local Palestinian Jews allied with their Babylonian co-religionists and assisted the Persians in their conquest of the Holy Land. 26,000 Jews participated in the onslaught. In the aftermath of the Persian victory, the Jews perpetrated a massive slaughter of the Gentiles of Palestine. They burned the churches and the monasteries, killed monks and priests, burned books. The beautiful basilica of Fishes and Loaves in Tabgha, the Ascension on the Mount of Olives, St Stephen opposite Damascus Gate and the Hagia Sion on Mt Zion are just at the top of the list of perished edifices. Indeed, very few churches survived the onslaught. The Great Laura of St Sabas, tucked away in the bottomless Ravine of Fire (Wadi an-Nar) was saved by its remote location and steep crags. The Church of the Nativity miraculously survived: when Jews commanded its destruction, the Persians balked. They perceived the Magi mosaic above the lintel as the portrait of Persian kings.
When Jerusalem surrendered to the Persians, thousands of local Christians became prisoners of war and were herded to the Mamilla Pool area. They were probably sold to the highest bidder. According to some sources, the Christian captives at Mamilla Pond were bought by Jews and were then slain on the spot.
The Oxford Professor Henry Hart Milman’s History of the Jews describes it in stronger terms:
It had come at length, the long-expected hour of triumph and vengeance; and the Jews did not neglect the opportunity. They washed away the profanation of the holy city in Christian blood. The Persians are said to have sold the miserable captives for money. The The vengeance of the Jews was stronger than their avarice; not only did they not scruple to sacrifice their treasures in the purchase of these devoted bondsmen, they put to death all they had purchased at a lavish price. It was a rumour of the time that 90,000 perished.
An eyewitness to the massacre, Strategius of St Sabas, was more vivid:
Thereupon the vile Jews… rejoiced exceedingly, because they detested the Christians, and they conceived an evil plan. As of old they bought the Lord from the Jews with silver, so they purchased Christians out of the reservoir… How many souls were slain in the reservoir of Mamilla! How many perished of hunger and thirst! How many priests and monks were massacred by the sword! How many maidens, refusing their abominable outrages, were given over to death by the enemy! How many parents perished on top of their children! How many of the people were brought up by the Jews and butchered, and became confessors of Christ! Who can count the multitude of the corpses of those who were massacred in Jerusalem!
Strategius estimated the victims of the holocaust at 66,000.
In plain prose, the Jews ransomed the Christians from the hands of the Persian soldiers for good money to slaughter them at Mamilla Pool, ‘and it ran with blood’. Jews massacred between 60,000 and 90,000 Palestinian Christians in Jerusalem alone. A few days later, the Persian military understood the magnitude of the massacre and stopped the Jews.
Since all sources of this event are from Christians, it’s probable that they were greatly embellished. Nevertheless, I look at it as Jewish payback for what they suffered under the Christians especially the Crusaders.
Elohim is a uniplural word.
If this is your viewpoint, can we refer to you as Imam?!
@ NormanF:
I think you are referring to his later comment in his ‘Guide for the perplexed’. That work has no Halachic standing.
When Rambam came to codify his opinion as halakhah in his great work Mishneh Torah [Avodah Zarah 9:4] this is what he wrote:
Christians are idolators and Sunday is their holy day. Therefore it is forbidden to do business with them in Eretz-Israel on Thursday and Friday in every week, and, it is superfluous to add, that on Sunday [business with them] is forbidden everywhere [in the world]. In like manner we relate to them on all their feast days.
The Mishnah Commentary was written as a ‘popular’ work in Arabic. Here is Rambam’s commentary, as he wrote it, from the Hebrew translation by Rabbi Yosef Kafi? z”l:
Christians with their messianic claim – all their various sects – are all idol-worshippers. All their festivals are prohibited [as in mishnah 1] and in all Torah matters we relate to them as we relate to idolators. Sunday is one of their holy days. It is therefore forbidden to have any contact whatsoever with those messianists on Sundays: on Sundays we relate to them as we relate to all idolators on their feast day.
The very first comment in the Gemara on our present mishnah [Avodah Zarah 7b] is as follows:
Rav Ta?lifa bar-Avdimi quotes Shemu’el: A Christian according to Rabbi Yishma’el would always be forbidden.
It is most interesting that Shemu’el in Babylon should make such a comment (a comment which, by the way, was censored by the Church). The holy day of the Christians is Sunday. According to the sages it would be forbidden to have commerce with Christians on Thursdays, Fridays and Sundays (on Saturdays it was forbidden anyway for other reasons). But according to Rabbi Yishma’el commerce with Christians would be forbidden for seven days in every week!
note: that Shemu’el quite naturally assumes that Christianity is avodah zarah
TRACTATE AVODAH ZARAH, CHAPTER ONE, MISHNAH FOUR:
Rambam claims that our mishnah is simply forbidding Jews to go to towns in which there is idolatry:
It is absolutely forbidden to go into a town in which there is idolatry and all the more so [is it forbidden] to dwell there and all the more so to trade there. It makes no difference in what manner the shops are decorated because the decoration is solely in honour of the idol; therefore, it is forbidden to derive any benefit from anything that is in them [the shops].
And now Rambam launches into yet another diatribe against Christianity :
Therefore, you must understand that it is prohibited to deliberately pass through any Christian town which contains a church – which is an idolatrous temple beyond all doubt – and obviously it is forbidden to dwell in such a town. But God has delivered us into their hands and we must live in their towns against our will in fulfillment of the verse [Deuteronomy 4:28] “There [in the land of your exile] you will serve man-made gods of wood and stone.” If this is the law concerning the town all the more is it forbidden to enter into a church: it is almost forbidden just to see one, let alone to approach it and certainly not to enter it.
DO WE ALL PRAY TO THE SAME GOD?
He has to come twice.
He came in the first century AD.
Your rabbis rejected him.
Zech 9:9 speaks of the Messiah coming the first time lowly on a colt.
But I am not going to waste my time trying to convince a person as hard-hearted as you.
That being said, your theocratic ideas are scary.
As for Luther, he did many good things. But he could not reform the church all by himself.
His anti-semitism nearly sank the Reformation, though. It was so severe that his compatriots had to backtrack a bit. Luther started the Reformation, but his anti-semitism at the end of his life prevented Lutheranism from ever advancing after his death. To this day: Lutheranism is mostly German or Scandanavian.
But if you want to go tit for tat …
In the 6th Century AD, the the Jewish Himyarite Kingdom of Yemen persecuted Christians and ran pogroms against them.
This destruction of Christianity would be the cause for Islam. Christianity was growing in the Arabian Peninsula. Thanks to the persecution of Christians, Islam would arise.
There is blood on everybody’s hands; not just us Gentiles.
@ Alanjo55:
“The woman said to him [Jesus], ‘Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain; and you say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.’ Jesus said to her, ‘Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for Salvation is from the Jews.'” (John 4:19-22)
Zech 8:23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts: In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold, out of all the languages of the nations, shall even take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying: We will go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.’
Your statement has no Judaic foundation. You can not even find a biblical ref: In Jewish scriptures describing ‘THE MESSIAH’ neither Man or Diety.
The prophets speak in terms of a Messianic Age not of a Messiah. A Jewish King (A totally Human King) is what we can accept but nothing supernatural.
Most of the textual requirements concerning the messiah, what he will do, and what will be done during his reign are located within the Book of Isaiah, although requirements are mentioned in other prophets as well.
The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)
Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance (Isaiah 2:4)
The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8–10)
The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with “fear of God” (Isaiah 11:2)
Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 53:7)
Nations will recognize the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13–53:5)
The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvot (renewal of animal sacrifices) That would eleminate Christian core beliefs,
He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)
He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13–15, Ezekiel 36:29–30, Isaiah 11:6–9)
Since it’s obvious that many of the prophesies have come to pass without a Messiah it is reasonable to view a messiah as a condition and not a specific Man.
Martin Luther may have done a few things right but was wrong on many things, infant baptism, Maryology and hatred of the Jew to name a few. He was intellegient, an excellent linguist having translated the Bible from the original language to German. Just as Luther was amazingly in error on infant baptism and Maryology, those two things have no affect on a person’s salvation. All of mankind’s salvation is of the Jew, for the only One Who provides eternal life is the Jewish Messiah. Just as Luther couldn’t see that infant baptism and Maryology are not Biblical, he had blinders on his eyes that the Jews are the apple of God’s eye.
@ BlandOatmeal:
The British ( That most Christian of Nations)White paper doomed most of European Jews. If Palestine were open to the Jews there would not have been a Holocaust.
Never again, and again, and again
“The Final Solution wasn’t a German invention, but a collaborative effort by the Christian world.”
@ BlandOatmeal:
What threat?
What Christians?
Innocent? Of what?
What Christian Nations? Avion conference
30 million Christians?
What endeavor?
I have no problem with that!!
I know I am on safe ground on that score. Can you say the same?
Evian: The Most Fateful Conference of All Time in Jewish History Part One
The betrayal of the Jews who placed their trust in civilized humanity: “The Evian Conference” – (Hitler’s Green Light for Genocide)
The Evian Conference – Hitler’s Green Light for Genocide
Conclusion
@ Laura:
…and Yamit is a clear threat to innocent Christians. May the evil he wishes upon Christians, fall upon his own head.
In defense of the Christians, it was the Christian countries that sheltered millions of Jews [including many of our own families] from Hitler, and allowed the Jewish state to come into existence. Some 30 million Christians lost their lives in that endeavor. Let God choose between them and Yamit, with his continual blasphemy.
Laura Said:
Agreed. This is not to excuse Christian anti-Semitism but its no longer the mortal threat to the Jewish people. Today it is Islam which marinates in Jew-hatred. No Christian would do today to Jewish children what the Butcher Of Toulouse did. Jewish friends and enemies change with time and Jews need to conduct themselves accordingly.
With all due respect to Yamit, Christians are not according to the Rambam, pagan. They are merely imperfect monotheists. The prophets of Israel of a speak of time when the whole world will learn from the Jewish people in the Messianic Age but if would be incorrect to say all of mankind would become Jewish. Rather, when they come to the Temple, they will learn from G-d and to act rightly upon the earth.
That day is not here yet. But it is a day all those fear G-d welcome!
Yamit, Christians are no longer a threat to Jews, muslims still are.
Moshe Dyan threw away a miraculous victory over Israel’s annihilationist enemies.
@ CuriousAmerican:
Let’s put things in perspective. In all of Israel’s wars and Jewish losses due to terrorism, we have lost since 1948 just over 30,000, the highest total being our Independence war in 48′ (over 1%)of our population.
One days production in the Nazi death camps exceeded 63 years of our losses. The murderers were not “Savage Mullahs” but European Professed Christians who were baptized and given Christian burials when they died or were killed in battle. They were supported by the whole of the Christian world including the democratic nations like England and America whose Industrialists aided the Nazis and profited from the Jewish slaughter.
Israel looses to to traffic fatalities around 550 deaths per year. Do the math.
Martin Luther essay “The Jews and Their Lies”
Point by point Luther gives advice to the political leaders and the pulpit on how to go about persecuting Jews. His advice will be taken literally by Hitler and the Nazi party resulting in the Holocaust!
“In Mein Kampf, Hitler listed Martin Luther as one of the greatest reformers. And similar to Luther in the 1500s, Hitler spoke against the Jews. The Nazi plan to create a German Reich Church laid its bases on the “Spirit of Dr. Martin Luther.” The first physical violence against the Jews came on November 9-10 on Kristallnacht (Crystal Night) where the Nazis killed Jews, shattered glass windows, and destroyed hundreds of synagogues, just as Luther had proposed. In Daniel Johah Goldhagen’s book, Hitler’s Willing Executioners, he writes:”
“One leading Protestant churchman, Bishop Martin Sasse published a compendium of Martin Luther’s antisemitic vitriol shortly after Kristallnacht’s orgy of anti-Jewish violence. In the foreword to the volume, he applauded the burning of the synagogues and the coincidence of the day: ‘On November 10, 1938, on Luther’s birthday, the synagogues are burning in Germany.’ The German people, he urged, ought to heed these words ‘of the greatest antisemite of his time, the warner of his people against the Jews.'”
Read:
Martin Luther’s dirty little book:
On the Jews and their lies
A precursor to Nazism
by Jim Walker
What was that about Savage Mullahs?
HAPPY EASTER
CuriousAmerican Said:
Why? The Arabs fate shouldn’t be Israel’s problem to solve. After centuries of anti-Semitism, let the rest of the world take care of them. The redress of their plight shouldn’t be at Jewish expense.
Whatever people do in the privacy of their own home is between them G-d. But in the public square, a decent society must expect G-dly behavior or it will perish. As for G-d fearers going to Temple, that is welcome as long as they accept His dominion of the earth, love the Jewish people and act like moral persons, not like pagans. Obviously, people who hate Jews and wish to slaughter them, will never be welcome in the Jewish State. I would say the Jews have suffered a great deal at the hands of the world and much of the sanctimonious lecturing to them nowadays comes from people who have not shown true contrition for their past misdeeds but who now flaunt their arrogance towards the Jewish nation. Jews should be the last people on earth to accept any kind of advice from them.
Yamit is right – Israel is led today by men who are intellectual and moral cowards, terrified of what the world will say, who show no love to their fellow Jew – witness the Hebron Beit Machepela expulsion – and who anxiously seek to please Jew-hating Arabs bent upon Israel’s destruction. The root of Israel’s problems is not the Arabs or even America. It is with little worms of men who have no fear of G-d and are not inclined to obey Him. They are responsible for all the Jewish blood shed on their hands in the last twenty years.
Israel cannot ever obtain peace with the Arabs. Driving every single one of them out and possessing the Land would be pleasing to G-d and the courageous thing to do. We live in a time when men are bereft of courage when this would save lives and allow Jews live in their own land in true peace. Pretending a group of barbarian riffraff who exist only to kill Jews are a nation is an insult to any decent person’s intelligence and sense of morality.
Israel owes the Arabs nothing. And as long there is not one courageous Jew in Israel willing to do what is necessary, Israel will never know a single day of true peace. Israel is not destined to find a place among as the nations, as Benjamin Netanyahu thinks; to the contrary Israel’s destiny is to be alone among the nations. The sooner Jews grasp it, the better off they will be and the blessings that will flow to them can now scarcely be imagined. Peace will not come by sharing the Jewish homeland with Jew-hating Arabs but driving them out off from it and making they can never return again.
That is the lesson of Jewish history and Jews ignore it to their own peril.
You are paying for it … alas in blood!
You should reconsidering paying for it.
After all, you will profit from it.
You are not better than the mullahs. You are just as savage.
@ CuriousAmerican:
Dead serious.
Violence against Palis would only result if they resist violently. There are many ways to effect a population transfer and not all are violent. May countries have had population transfers since the end of WW2. The world quietly accepted them..
I don’t think the world gives a damn about the Palis. Thy will and have attempted to ostracize us in any event, might as well provide them with a real reason. I don’t think they will cut off trade especially when we hare sitting on 259 billion bbl’s of shale oil about to be produced and trillions of cm of natural gas. We have a good shot of also having large deposits of uranium and other radioactive elements.
What ever works but We are not paying for it and If you offered them parts of Utah or Minnesota for an autonomous entity I am not opposed. As long as they are not here and as far away from us as possible.
Antisemitism? I don’t care that’s not my problem is it? I care about live Jews here becoming dead Jews by not removing scum
modernity has nothing to do with Jewish law and halacha.
First of all those penalties were imposed only for pulic violations and what happens in the privacy of ones home stays there. Then a new definition of work would have to be debated and a consensus would need to be arrived at and ruled on.
Sorry no Christians allowed in our Jewish State. If a Christian did get by our screening and he publicly dispyed foreign worship we would have little…choice. But aly males the Torah is silent ;”””””…………on lezzies..
Only Pagans and for Jews that includes Christians!
Yes for public displays
Yes if we had a Temple and Christian Pagans were stupid enough to violate our Temple by their spiritual impurity.
I don’t know of a recorded case but the law was for disrespecting a a parent.
I have always maintained that Judaism and Islam, Much of shariah are more closely related than is Judism to Christianity,Would you execute Gentiles who enter the courts of the Temple with the Jews?
Please tell me that you are not serious.
The price for such brutality will not be a cleansed Israel, but an ostracized Israel, where even the West blockades Israel. Israel would be blockaded, thrown out of the UN (which may not be a bad thing), cut off from world trade, and it would increase real world-wide anti-semitism.
A better solution would be to buy the Palestinians a country, in an empty province (there are many) in South America.
Ancient instructions are not always applicable in the modern era.
Would you execute those who disobey the Sabbath?
Would you execute Christians?
Would you execute gays?
Would you execute Gentiles who enter the courts of the Temple with the Jews?
Would you execute children who talk back to their parents?
You are beginning to sound like the mullahs.
Jewish morality is whatever our G-d declares to be moral not other peoples, civil, ethical or religions concepts of what is moral behavior.
Yet historically Jews refused to fully comply with biblical commandments and edicts. Moses entirely accepted G-d’s definition of morality. Divine decrees set the standard of morality, and anything G-d told him to do was moral by definition. Even genocide was moral when perpetrated on divine orders.
The torah is very explicit and when we have the power to comply and don’t, we are collectively punished… Read Jewish history. If we had complied in 1967 when we had the power none of our current problems would exist
The biblical commentators are explicit about the above verses:
In 1967 The Jews abandoned the Mount and chose the Wailing Wall. At that moment, it dawned upon the Muslim Arabs that the battle might be over, but the war was not. There was no decision, and the heart of El Quds remained in their hands.
With the Palis we are only required to drive them out but if they resist they must be killed.
Modern Jews should not shrink from the explicit commandment to cleanse the land G-d gave us of its hostile inhabitants.