By Randolph Parrish, AMERICAN THINKER,
[..]
Now in a new book, The World’s Oldest Alphabet, Douglas Petrovich has deciphered the Sinai inscriptions, and for the first time outside the Bible we can read how the slaves looked at things:
“He sought occasion to cut away to barrenness our great number, our swelling without measure.” (Sinai 349)
“Our bond servitude had lingered. Moses then provoked astonishment. It is a year of astonishment.” (Sinai 361)
Anyone familiar with the book of Exodus will immediately spot parallels with the account of Pharaoh’s attempt to reduce the number of newborn Israelites; and the subsequent actions of Moses. (Many of the Sinai inscriptions can be viewed with a simple Google search.)
So much then for the dismissive arguments that the Israelites could never have numbered enough to be considered a threat to Egypt. Or that there never was an Exodus. Or that Moses never existed. [..]
@ yamit82:
I know what the Torah has to say, I spent 8-10 years in chedar, and was on the way to becoming a Biblical Hebrew scholar with much potential for further studies..(according to my teacher known to you as Menachem Mansoor of Wisconsin University, internationally of great repute, who got multiple degrees in Trinity College Dublin, and many gold medals for Semitic Studies, with many bo
oks on the subjects we are now discussing). To believe in “miracles” and not the accidental conjunction of a variety of things at the very same instant instead, is delving into the metaphysical world, and I don’t do that, nor is my interest in such things more than academic.
We are speaking of very ancient times where the simplest natural phenomena were regarded as miraculous, and there was no understanding as yet of critical thinking. Superstition ruled the world. They obeyed and believed in deities at which we’ve all been laughing at for the past 4-5 hundred years. they committed the most awful atrocities believing that they were pleasing their gods, and regarded anything that happened after, even if nothing did, as the action of that god. They believed that gods fought amongst themselves, and it really must have driven the poor guys crazy trying to pick a winner to follow.
So let it be. I’m the strongest believing Jew that you ever came across, but this doesn’t require me to believe in things that my senses tell me are mere tradition or ancient fable. People of those times had brains, and required that there should be an explanation for everything, and whatever they couldn’t understand they attributed to their gods.
So, again, let it be so.
david melech Said:
Pls provide your sources
@ Sebastien Zorn:
Interesting article from NYT .
@ Edgar G.:
I don’t buy into any single theory but collecting as many credible facts and factoids as possible allows one to connect some dots even if incomplete… The Torah is not a history book although it does describe events, times, places and names of historical import and relevance…… One needs to put oneself into the minds and understanding of a people 3500 hundred years ago and how they viewed and understood their world… This is what the Torah has to say:
Deuteronomy Chapter 4
1 And now, O Israel, hearken unto the statutes and unto the ordinances, which I teach you, to do them; that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD, the God of your fathers, giveth you. 2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. 3 Your eyes have seen what the LORD did in Baal-peor; for all the men that followed the Baal of Peor, the LORD thy God hath destroyed them from the midst of thee. 4 But ye that did cleave unto the LORD your God are alive every one of you this day. 5 Behold, I have taught you statutes and ordinances, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the midst of the land whither ye go in to possess it. 6 Observe therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples, that, when they hear all these statutes, shall say: ‘Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.’ 7 For what great nation is there, that hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is whensoever we call upon Him? 8 And what great nation is there, that hath statutes and ordinances so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day? 9 Only take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes saw, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life; but make them known unto thy children and thy children’s children; 10 the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb, when the LORD said unto me: ‘Assemble Me the people, and I will make them hear My words that they may learn to fear Me all the days that they live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.’ 11 And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the heart of heaven, with darkness, cloud, and thick darkness. 12 And the LORD spoke unto you out of the midst of the fire; ye heard the voice of words, but ye saw no form; only a voice. 13 And He declared unto you His covenant, which He commanded you to perform, even the ten words; and He wrote them upon two tables of stone. 14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and ordinances, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it. 15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves–for ye saw no manner of form on the day that the LORD spoke unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire– 16 lest ye deal corruptly, and make you a graven image, even the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female, 17 the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the heaven, 18 the likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water under the earth; 19 and lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun and the moon and the stars, even all the host of heaven, thou be drawn away and worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath allotted unto all the peoples under the whole heaven. 20 But you hath the LORD taken and brought forth out of the iron furnace, out of Egypt, to be unto Him a people of inheritance, as ye are this day. 21 Now the LORD was angered with me for your sakes, and swore that I should not go over the Jordan, and that I should not go in unto that good land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance; 22 but I must die in this land, I must not go over the Jordan; but ye are to go over, and possess that good land. 23 Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which He made with you, and make you a graven image, even the likeness of any thing which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee. 24 For the LORD thy God is a devouring fire, a jealous God. {P}
25 When thou shalt beget children, and children’s children, and ye shall have been long in the land, and shall deal corruptly, and make a graven image, even the form of any thing, and shall do that which is evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke Him; 26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over the Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed. 27 And the LORD shall scatter you among the peoples, and ye shall be left few in number among the nations, whither the LORD shall lead you away. 28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men’s hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell. 29 But from thence ye will seek the LORD thy God; and thou shalt find Him, if thou search after Him with all thy heart and with all thy soul. 30 In thy distress, when all these things are come upon thee, in the end of days, thou wilt return to the LORD thy God, and hearken unto His voice; 31 for the LORD thy God is a merciful God; He will not fail thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which He swore unto them. 32 For ask now of the days past, which were before thee, since the day that God created man upon the earth, and from the one end of heaven unto the other, whether there hath been any such thing as this great thing is, or hath been heard like it? 33 Did ever a people hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as thou hast heard, and live? 34 Or hath God assayed to go and take Him a nation from the midst of another nation, by trials, by signs, and by wonders, and by war, and by a mighty hand, and by an outstretched arm, and by great terrors, according to all that the LORD your God did for you in Egypt before thine eyes? 35 Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightest know that the LORD, He is God; there is none else beside Him. 36 Out of heaven He made thee to hear His voice, that He might instruct thee; and upon earth He made thee to see His great fire; and thou didst hear His words out of the midst of the fire. 37 And because He loved thy fathers, and chose their seed after them, and brought thee out with His presence, with His great power, out of Egypt, 38 to drive out nations from before thee greater and mightier than thou, to bring thee in, to give thee their land for an inheritance, as it is this day; 39 know this day, and lay it to thy heart, that the LORD, He is God in heaven above and upon the earth beneath; there is none else. 40 And thou shalt keep His statutes, and His commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, for ever.@ Edgar G.:
32 For ask now of the days past, which were before thee, since the day that God created man upon the earth, and from the one end of heaven unto the other, whether there hath been any such thing as this great thing is, or hath been heard like it? 33 Did ever a people hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as thou hast heard, and live? 34 Or hath God assayed to go and take Him a nation from the midst of another nation, by trials, by signs, and by wonders, and by war, and by a mighty hand, and by an outstretched arm, and by great terrors, according to all that the LORD your God did for you in Egypt before thine eyes? 35 Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightest know that the LORD, He is God; there is none else beside Him. 36 Out of heaven He made thee to hear His voice, that He might instruct thee; and upon earth He made thee to see His great fire; and thou didst hear His words out of the midst of the fire. 37 And because He loved thy fathers, and chose their seed after them, and brought thee out with His presence, with His great power, out of Egypt, 38 to drive out nations from before thee greater and mightier than thou, to bring thee in, to give thee their land for an inheritance, as it is this day; 39 know this day, and lay it to thy heart, that the LORD, He is God in heaven above and upon the earth beneath; there is none else. 40 And thou shalt keep His statutes, and His commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, for ever.
@ Edgar G.:
I don’t buy into any single theory but collecting as many credible facts and factoids as possible allows one to connect some dots even if incomplete… The Torah is not a history book although it does describe events, times, places and names of historical import and relevance…… One needs to put oneself into the minds and understanding of a people 3500 hundred years ago and how they viewed and understood their world… This is what the Torah has to say:
Deuteronomy Chapter 4
1 And now, O Israel, hearken unto the statutes and unto the ordinances, which I teach you, to do them; that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD, the God of your fathers, giveth you. 2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. 3 Your eyes have seen what the LORD did in Baal-peor; for all the men that followed the Baal of Peor, the LORD thy God hath destroyed them from the midst of thee. 4 But ye that did cleave unto the LORD your God are alive every one of you this day. 5 Behold, I have taught you statutes and ordinances, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the midst of the land whither ye go in to possess it. 6 Observe therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples, that, when they hear all these statutes, shall say: ‘Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.’ 7 For what great nation is there, that hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is whensoever we call upon Him? 8 And what great nation is there, that hath statutes and ordinances so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day? 9 Only take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes saw, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life; but make them known unto thy children and thy children’s children; 10 the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb, when the LORD said unto me: ‘Assemble Me the people, and I will make them hear My words that they may learn to fear Me all the days that they live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.’ 11 And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the heart of heaven, with darkness, cloud, and thick darkness. 12 And the LORD spoke unto you out of the midst of the fire; ye heard the voice of words, but ye saw no form; only a voice. 13 And He declared unto you His covenant, which He commanded you to perform, even the ten words; and He wrote them upon two tables of stone. 14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and ordinances, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it. 15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves–for ye saw no manner of form on the day that the LORD spoke unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire– 16 lest ye deal corruptly, and make you a graven image, even the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female, 17 the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the heaven, 18 the likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water under the earth; 19 and lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun and the moon and the stars, even all the host of heaven, thou be drawn away and worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath allotted unto all the peoples under the whole heaven. 20 But you hath the LORD taken and brought forth out of the iron furnace, out of Egypt, to be unto Him a people of inheritance, as ye are this day. 21 Now the LORD was angered with me for your sakes, and swore that I should not go over the Jordan, and that I should not go in unto that good land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance; 22 but I must die in this land, I must not go over the Jordan; but ye are to go over, and possess that good land. 23 Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which He made with you, and make you a graven image, even the likeness of any thing which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee. 24 For the LORD thy God is a devouring fire, a jealous God. {P}
25 When thou shalt beget children, and children’s children, and ye shall have been long in the land, and shall deal corruptly, and make a graven image, even the form of any thing, and shall do that which is evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke Him; 26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over the Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed. 27 And the LORD shall scatter you among the peoples, and ye shall be left few in number among the nations, whither the LORD shall lead you away. 28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men’s hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell. 29 But from thence ye will seek the LORD thy God; and thou shalt find Him, if thou search after Him with all thy heart and with all thy soul. 30 In thy distress, when all these things are come upon thee, in the end of days, thou wilt return to the LORD thy God, and hearken unto His voice; 31 for the LORD thy God is a merciful God; He will not fail thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which He swore unto them. 32 For ask now of the days past, which were before thee, since the day that God created man upon the earth, and from the one end of heaven unto the other, whether there hath been any such thing as this great thing is, or hath been heard like it? 33 Did ever a people hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as thou hast heard, and live? 34 Or hath God assayed to go and take Him a nation from the midst of another nation, by trials, by signs, and by wonders, and by war, and by a mighty hand, and by an outstretched arm, and by great terrors, according to all that the LORD your God did for you in Egypt before thine eyes? 35 Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightest know that the LORD, He is God; there is none else beside Him. 36 Out of heaven He made thee to hear His voice, that He might instruct thee; and upon earth He made thee to see His great fire; and thou didst hear His words out of the midst of the fire. 37 And because He loved thy fathers, and chose their seed after them, and brought thee out with His presence, with His great power, out of Egypt, 38 to drive out nations from before thee greater and mightier than thou, to bring thee in, to give thee their land for an inheritance, as it is this day; 39 know this day, and lay it to thy heart, that the LORD, He is God in heaven above and upon the earth beneath; there is none else. 40 And thou shalt keep His statutes, and His commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, for ever.
@ yamit82:
Yamit, I always used to enjoy Simcha and he made a very interesting, mysterious documentaries. But I realised that he was not really an archaeologist, except in as much it helped his business which was documentaries. I cooled off him a bit when he made a geschichta about the “Jesus Family Tomb” I think it was in Talpiot.
That was dead against everything I believe about the gospels and the farcical concoction which is Christianity.
Not that I wouldn’t watch him, but moved, and became used to computers where \i could read as many books as I wished until I was stuffed full. That hasn’t happened yet, and not for a good many years to come, I hope. I haven’t had a television for about 20 years, But I haven’t seen Simcha since that Tomb debacle where after all the fuss and smeke, there wa no fire. Plenty of forgery, and insinutation but not even a spark
What yo have just posted sounds extremely interesting and i also believ that the Exodus shouldbe dated around the Santorini.Thera volcano eruption.
Did you see my post last week where I mentioned that an acquaintance of mine, a cricket opponent and sometimes tresm mate Professor J.V. Luce, went with Priof. Marinatos, who discovered Akrotiri, the capital of Santorini, and they spent about 6-10 weeks digging, uncovering new artifacts, and mapping etc. John wrote some books about it and the subject generally. The most famous was “The end of Atlantis”…… He was also a famous classics scholar, and highly regarded internationally…
A side note, Luce represented Ireland in field hockey for many years, almost a fixture for 20 years., as well as cricket. So the classic model of the gentleman sportsman/scholar. He didn’t like me perhaps a bit of Anti-S there, which was a general thing then, as well as a keen opponent who loved to win at all costs, and against me he didn’t.
@ terjeber:
The 2 million you menton is just a sop to the 2.5 million usually mentioned. The reason they fix on this amount is only because the REAL amount-given the 600,000 men and their families- would have been many millions. Consider……
1,200,000 men and women, maybe a lot more if they were polygamous as they likely were in those times. It was part of thei cutom. Then children, maybe 4-10 children per family is another 2.4-6 mill, and their servants, say with shepherds and house servants, say 4-6 would be another 4 mill, plus all the others who attached themselves to the Hebrews in the going out from Egypt, say 1 mill. That comes to roughly 20 mill which you can see is utterly impossible.
Therefore the flaw is in the translation of the account, and the only one which fits like a glove is what I earlier mentioned, that they were 600 heads of families., giving about + – 3.5 thousand. easily handled by the vast Sinai, and not making a scratch on the Egyptian economy. My suggestion that they went directly the shortest way along the lagoon coastline, is valid, and also that they turned aside for many years because they saw were too few-as Moses said- to conquer even the smallest city. Perhaps came to the \philistine cities first and saw how organised they were, and with very good walls etc. So they detoured and went into the mountains, and stayed there until they developed their religion and rituals, and increased their population, and hardened them for fighting. . I would also suggest that Mt. Sinai of the Torah is somewhere in the Jerusalem Hills.
The number of years, 40 are not to be taken literally except if it really was by coincidence. The number 40 had some mystical meaning for ancient peoples including the Hebrews (or Ibaru) The flood rained for 40 days and nights, So and So reigned for 40 years, etc, and this number was chosen until they came to a point in their civilisation where they could actually settle in that time and get organised like the other kingdoms and city states. therefore keep more accurate records.
I know this is a lot to assimilate and think through seriously, but I urge you to consider it. I’ve had this theory for many years, and much of what I’ve read has only reinforced it. Especially after I came across elef and aluf, and joined it with the people being too few to go into Canaan.
@ Edgar G.:
Exodus Decoded and the Search for the Real Mount Sinai: Documentary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjW8RxXB0NI&t=2464s
@ Sebastien Zorn:
I read about the Papyrus Ipuwer about 60 years ago and it was in the news , but only in obscure publications. And they didn’t make the Ten Plagues connection, it took Velikovsky to do that. It is prominently exhibited by Velikovsky in one of his books, I have about 5-6 of them but don’t know which one, and he says that it details the 10 plagues precisely.
I even remember some of the contents, as I write, it was all about “Oh woe, the land is in ruins… and more woe and ran on that way. I’d forgotten all about it until now you mentioned it. I have so much stuff plugged up in my head that often things go out of reach, until a mention like yours brings it all back…. Thanks for the reminder.
One of the fascinating bits of evidence in the Haaretz article
@ terjeber:
This article suggests direct and indirect evidence of Yahweh worshipping semitic slaves and a “Pharoah” named Yacub. Also, the biblical account says they built the store in houses in Pithom and Ramses. Cecil B. De Mille made it the pyramids.
https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/archaeology/1.713849
@ adamdalgliesh:
Wilson pointed out that it was possible for Moses to confront the Pharoah in Goshen though the capital was in Cairo because there were two Pharoahs at the same time. When Hatsheput usurped the throne from her son, he went to Goshen and built up the army, assuming the role of Commander in Chief.
@ Sebastien Zorn: I read the Times article that you referenced, Sebastien. This Professor Dr. Hans Goedicke certainly was an eminent and legitimate scholar, and he makes an excellent case that this inscription from Hatshepsut refers to the exodus with an Egyptian “spin.” I have long suspected that the exodus occurred around this time, even though I had never read about Professor Goedicke’s work until now. The Book of Kings gives a date for the Exodus (480 years before work began on the temple) that places it very close to the time suggested by Professor Goedicke. Another reason why this is a likely time for the exodus is that there were three different Pharaohs contesting the throne in Egypt during Hatshepsut’s reign, or attempted reign–Hapshepsut, who was one of only two female Pharaohs of Egypt, her presumably estranged husband, and some other dude (these dudes were known as Thutmose II and Thutmose III). The prominence of “Pharoah’s daughter” in the Moses story also reinforces my suspicion that the exodus was around this time. Hatshepsut was indeed a daughter of a previous Pharaoh. Thutmose I, and she was the only one of the three claimants to the throne who was a child of a previous Pharaoh. Inscriptions by all three claimants to the throne have been found in one burial cave, but each one did his/her best to erase the inscriptions of the two others. But archeologists have been able to reconstruct all three inscriptions. Obviously, the confusion and disorder occasioned by the power struggle made ideal conditions for forced laborers to escape Egypt. As for the volcanic eruption on Thera, it is consistent with the description of Mount Sinai at the giving of the Torah, which clearly describes an erupting volcano. Often volcanic activity in one place is accompanied by volcanic activity in nearby places that are on the same tectonic plate, or a related one.
@ Edgar G.:
Yes, it’s in the NYT article I am referring to, click the link in previous comment.
Three feet? The Egyptian army was drowned in 3 ft. of water? What’s the basis for this estimate?
@ Sebastien Zorn:
What flood are you talking about. Do you mean the aftermath of the tsunami which I seem to recall could only have hit Egyptian shores at a height of about 3 feet. I could be wrong.
@ Ted Belman:
I didn’t know he was a Rabbi, I knew he was a psychiatrist and psychoanalyst, for which he was a student of a prize pupil and collaborator of Freud. I believe he also knew Freud. I recall reading somewhere that Freud made complimentary remarks about Velikovsky and his psychoanalytic methods.
300 years earlier he’d have been called a polymath. He was a close friend of Einstein. And I just remembered that he founded a University in Israel, or was one of the founders. It seems that there was nothing he couldn’t do nor didn’t get into in some manner. An amazing person for me.
@ Edgar G.:
Important decisions are usually made for multiple reasons. I’m sure that was true but what do think of the traditional explanation that the slave generation had t die out first as well as the theory in the NYT article that either the roads were impassible from the flood or they took it as a sign from God not to go that way?
@ Edgar G.:
Thanks for the memories. I also was a fan of his and read Ages in Chaos and Worlds in Upheaval. I marvelled at the breadth of his knowledge. He was a rabbi also.
@ Sebastien Zorn:
I believe it was Pithom and Rameses, leading me to believe that they were locations rather than the storehouses of individuals. Pithom was called Heropolis by the Greeks. And both were mentioned in ancient writings by different nations. Today archaeologists believe that they have correctly identified it’s location.
@ Ted Belman:
Yes Ted Velikovsky wrote such interesting stuff, I have about 5 of his books including “Worlds in Collision”, “Ages In Chaos” and “Worlds in Upheaval”, :Oedipus and Akhnaten”. I’ve also read some others from the library.
I recall that one of the proininent universities had a newspaper dedicated and devoted to Velikovsky’s theorys, and boasted that not one had been disproven yet. This lasted for many years before the first was shown wrong.
The way the scholars were driven crazy and to such low, mean subterfuges to prevent his getting into print, caused me to be more interested than perhaps otherwise. I was particularly impressed on that Wall of Tuthmosis which depicted what Velikovsky said were the Temple Treasures, and he made a very logical and believable comparison between the engravings and the actual list in the Torah, with his identical sketch of the wall and the items numbered if I recall. .
Who’s to say he was wrong. Especially about the connection with Thera and the Ten Plagues. His re-aligning the dates of Egyptian Pharaohs and dynasties was fascinating, especially when he pointed out the similarity between burial vaults known to have built 4-5 hundred years later than their Egyptian counterparts, but exactly the same design……Hmmm.!!
@ terjeber:
They were workers yes, but paid fo only by food, as there have been several lists of supplies found referring that they were for the workers, but never a single one mentioning other payment.. So we can assume, that like every other society, that workers worked, or starved, unless an especially enlightened monarch emerged who would feed them free.
Even the Torah story about Joseph getting the Pharaoh to pile up supplies for the famine years, were of financial benefit to the crown, because that food was paid for by those who had to buy it to survive, thus causing most of the country real estate to fall into the hands of the crown.
@ terjeber:
You can forget about the silly notion of several million members of ….etc. The whole Egyprian Nation at that time has been estimated to have been about 2.4 mill plus slaves-Jews_. Whw the Jews were enr=tering Canaan, a small territory as we can t=see today, there were already 8 kingdoms in it, and Moses made the detour because they were not strong enough to even conquer the smallest of them,
It has tobe obvious that there was an error between “aluf” and “elef”, the pertinent one meaning a head of a family. Ad taking that to be the REAL amount, could only taking the Torah account literally, a total of about 3500, plus whatever cattle and whatever others who came out with them There is no mention of them in the Torah after this one, so they were either non-existent, because everybody would have been afraid of the Jew-magicians, or so few in numbers that they were immediately assimilated.
As for Archaeologists, I strongly believ in their assumption of their findings, but the Sinai is large, and artifacts have been uncovered and covered again before definite locations have been established. My own belief is that they have been looking in thr wrong places all the time, as very often happens, when a true discov ery is made by chance as so many are. the are more likely to have gone along the coast where those strips of land, separated by narrow water, are situated. straight ahead from Goshen along the coast.
The Torah contains much allegory and many fables so one must pick and chose wisely….especially about such an early time, the actual beginning of the Jewish People. It has to have been placed in a setting of miracles and impossible events. Like every other nation, or country that ever originated in antiquity.
I suppose you also believe the story about Romulus and Remus…….Not tomention the stories about the miracles performed by the thousands of Egyptian gods, from where the Jewish People emerged; hardly unscathed by the milieu.
Dramatic license. Krakatoa wad actually east not west of Java as in the 1970s disaster film by that title. Imagine Charlton Heston playing Moses with a speech impediment.
@ terjeber:
The Ten Commandments, starring Charlton Heston has Jewish slaves building the pyramids. The actual biblical account says theybuilt the store houses of pithes and Ramses, if I remember correctly. I believe that was corroborated somewhere in another source.
@ adamdalgliesh:
Oh, I think I knowwhy you thought that. My humorous aside that The Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny, and Santa Claus were unimpeachable facts even if Americansbelieve in nothing else. ‘Swhat I get for trying to be funny.
Fast became a Zen Jubu supporter of Israel.
Which also agrees with Wilson about the volcano, as well as Howard Fast, who obliquely mentions the worship of a volcano as our beginning inhis history of the Jews. By the way, I just found this
Moscow Attacks Howard Fast, American Writer, As a Militant Zionist
DOWNLOAD PDF FOR THIS DATE
February 3, 1958
NEW YORK (Feb. 2)
Howard Fast, American writer who broke with the Communists, was denounced in the Soviet press this week-end as a “militant Zionist” Literaturnaya Gazeta, leading literary organ in Moscow, said that the real reason behind Mr. Fast’s break with the Communists was his love of Israel. According to the Moscow newspaper, Mr. Fast last year denounced the “insulting” tone of a message the Kremlin sent to Israel after her armies invaded Egypt in November, 1956.
“Fast got indignant at the sharpness of the note to Israel,” the paper wrote. But he did not get indignant at the fact that Israel started the aggression. The truth is that Howard Fast is not a Marxist, not an internationalist, but a militant Zionist who camouflages the insistent preaching of national exclusiveness with platonic words about fraternity”
https://www.jta.org/1958/02/03/archive/moscow-attacks-howard-fast-american-writer-as-a-militant-zionist
My hero.
@ adamdalgliesh:
The above-mentioned NYT article I just enclosed a link to.
As well as the parting of the sea which was also observed.
@ Ted Belman:
In “Exodus: The True story behind the biblical Account,” Ian Wilson pointed out that 9 of the Ten Plagues came out in response to the eruption of Krakatoa in the 19th century.The tenth, the death ofthe first born, he attributed to the Egyptians, themselves frantically sacrificing their own first born sons to propitiate the Gods and make the daytime darkness go away.
@ Sebastien Zorn: Sorry, Sebastien, I might have confused your views with those of Terjeber.
What is your source for your quotation from Hatshepsut.? If it is authentic, it certainly sounds like a reference to the Exodus with an egyptian “spin.”
Velikofsky wrote Worlds in Collision some 80 years ago. As I remember it he postulated that Venus came into orbit around our sun about the time of the exodus. HGe wr5ote that the gravitational pull of Venus cause real havoc such as “the mountains did skip like rams”. He also proved that the 10 plagues were natural phenonmenum and experienced in many different cultures around the world.
That’s what I remember.
@ terjeber:
How do you explain that inscription of Hatsheput?
Attempts to debunk the biblical historical narrative as myth helps those who would delegitimize Israel by turning our real history into nothing.
@ adamdalgliesh:
I didn’t equate religion with superstition. I said it is very subjective however too many people try to cloak their politics in an aura if objectivity in order to silence debate. All philosophical constructs which large numbers of people subscribe to over much time and space have enough contradictions, vague grey areas, and wiggle room to enable people to impose their ownviews and form factions while feeling traditional.
@ terjeber:
a) The times quotes mainstream archaeologists who disagree with this thesis but the consensus is clearly that it happened,at least im 1981 when the article came out and specific authorities are cited, which yiu did not do.
@ terjeber:
There are several logical flaws in your, and Sebastien’s, reasoning. 1. It is simply not true that one must believe that a narrative is 100% accurate or else dismiss it as 100% false. Many, probably most, historians make some factual errors in their writings. That doesn’t mean that their histories are 100% false. Much more often, they are 99% accurate and maybe 1% erroneous. Why should we judge the biblical histories by a harsher standard? 2) It is simply not true that religion and superstition are identical. Many rational people have religious beliefs. If I remember correctly, that includes you, Sebastien. Someone who is convinced that all religion is “superstition” and that the work of any scholar or archeologist who has religious beliefs may therefore by dismissed as fraudulent, is extremely biased and has “preconceived beliefs” and prejudices that make it impossible for him to fairly assess the evidence, or to fairly judge the conclusions of scholars who happen to have religious beliefs. If you start with a presumption that a narrative that expresses religious beliefs must ipso facto be a fraud, you obviously can’t make an impartial judgment about the factual basis of the narrative. 3) You still haven’t identified the names of the scholars whose works you have read that claim that the Exodus narrative is 100% false, or why you think these scholars are infallible.
@ adamdalgliesh:
The phrase “preconceived superstition” hardly sounds like an objective source.
It’s not. That’s why superstitious people are notoriously bad archaeologist. If you go into your work with pre-conceived notions, it’s easy to interpret every thing you find as supporting your notions. In this case, the so-called “biblical archaeologists” are looking to prove something that their superstition tells them is true. That will taint everything they do.
If you find the concept of “superstition” to be offensive or judgmental as a description of a religion, I recommend you look up the definition of “superstition”.
And by the way, Douglas Petrovich is a genuine scholar with a doctoral degree in West Semitic Studies and Egyptology from the University of Toronto. His translations of the Sinai inscriptions should not be dismissed so cavalierly.
It was. Roundly. Thoroughly. Definitively. By his peers.
Even https://www.bibleinterp.com/ rejects it, and they have every reason to support it.
@ Sebastien Zorn:
There are a couple of problems with the NYT article, one of them being that the NYT is not in any way an archaeology publication, it’s a newspaper, and as such has problems reporting on anything with a complexity slightly higher than that of “Mrs. Johnson’s cat was stuck in a tree”. Now, disregarding this, the NYT article, since commented on again by NYT, reported on the works of Dr. Hans Goedicke, works that was blasted to smithereens by the archaeological community. When the good doctor was blasted for making stuff up, his best defense was “no, I didn’t”.
Now, let’s try to use our brains for a couple of seconds to figure out, using just logic, if the Exodus was even possible. I am now taking the history as it is described quite literally. If we do not take every part of it as literal truth, well then the next step would be to reject it entirely.
1/
According to the story, some 600 000 adult men and their wives, children, servants and livestock left Egypt at the same time. In total this would be at least two million people. Egypt at the time held a population that was just around 3 to 3.5 million. If more than half the Egyptian population left the country over night, that would have caused a massive financial collapse, unparalleled any time in history by any community of any size.
The fact that no such collapse has been described in *any* document anywhere, including the the old Jewish texts, would indicate that it didn’t happen. In fact, it shouts the obvious “it didn’t happen”.
2/
We do know quite a lot about the Egyptian society at the time, and we know that the society didn’t include a large number of slaves. In fact, slaves were un-characteristically uncommon in the Egyptian society, and we know for certain that almost half its population were certainly not slaves. There is zero trace of any significant Jewish population in Egypt at the time in question. Also, and this is very well documented, the vast majority of the workers on the pyramids were not slaves or even indentured in any way, they were regular paid workers. Some were working off debt etc, but the majority were regular employees of the builder.
3/
600 000 men, their women, children and servants, not counting the livestock that was also present, waling 10 abreast, would make a line 150 miles long. A good runner could therefore run from the back of this line to the front of this line in about 36 hours. Give or take. Moving 2 million people this distance, women, elderly, children, is not feasible to do in less than a week. In most cases, far more.
4/
As they arrive at the Red Sea they have a very short amount of time to cross, and the crossing is about 20km or so. Now, remember, they still have to make a line, and they still need to move two million people across. They have to do this from the time the water drains, until it returns, and they are chased by Egyptian cavalry.
So, there are a few problems. No matter how slow the Egyptian Cavalry is, they will be able to ride to the front of the line of escaping Jews A LONG time before the rear end of the Jews have even started to cross enter the crossing. In other words, unless the Egyptian Cavalry was riding on toy horses, they were at the front of the line of escaping Jews when the water came rushing back.
Not only do the escaping Jews have to cross 20km of sea floor, they also have to descend 200m to the bottom of the sea bed (at least, depending on where they crossed). This would have had a dramatic impact on their ability to move at any kind of speed.
So, just the physics of the story is simply impossible. Remember, nowhere in the story does it say that God lifted up 2 million Jews and carried them across. That would be the only way this could have happened. Physically.
These are just a few of the problems with the story.
The Hebrew community originated in Canaan. That’s what the archaeological data shows. Exodus is a story to create unity. It’s a children’s fairy tale.
@ Ted Belman:
Well, as a comedy piece it did indeed lighten up my day, but I wasn’t aware that it was a comedy piece.
By the way,terjaber, exactly who are these “people who are not out to prove a pre-conceived superstition?” The phrase “preconceived superstition” hardly sounds like an objective source. I have a feeling that you have been hanging out too much with the “minimalist” school of archeologists led by professor Israel Finkelstein of Tel Aviv University, who argues that the lack of absolutely archeological proof for Biblical history is proof that it is false. But the majority of Israeli archeologists disagree with Finkelstein and other “minimalists.” And by the way, Douglas Petrovich is a genuine scholar with a doctoral degree in West Semitic Studies and Egyptology from the University of Toronto. His translations of the Sinai inscriptions should not be dismissed so cavalierly.
@ terjeber:
Actually, there is overwhelming archeological evidence that a substantial populations of West Semites inhabited the western edge of the Nile Delta during two eras of Egyptian history–roughly 1600-1500 BC, and again in roughly 1300-1200 BC. After both of these relatively brief periods the archeological evidence shows that the West Semites left, and the over-all population of the western Delta (called the “land of Goshen” in the Bible) dropped to almost nothing. It is true that there is no hard evidence that the West Semites were Israelites. But there is also no hard evidence that excludes this possibility. As to the population figures found in the Torah, ancient documents (such the Greek historian Herodotus) often give exaggerated population figures. That does not mean that everything else in these ancient texts is false. The archeological evidence for the reality of the Exodus is assembled in a brilliant book by Professor Kenneth Kitchen, a professor of Egyptology at Leeds University in England (a genuine, academically qualified professor!).
@ terjeber:
The New York Times disagreed with you and, for once, I agree with the Times, which is, itself, a miracle.
http://www.nytimes.com/1981/05/04/us/theory-ties-exodus-flood-to-tidal-wave.html
@ terjeber:
And I thought the article would brighten up your day. At a minimum, it would ellicit the truth from our knowlegable readers such as yourself.
It saddens me to see articles like this on what is normally a relatively rational website. The claims by Douglas Petrovich have been thoroughly discredited by people who are not out to prove a pre-conceived superstition, but more importantly, the entire Exodus story is completely rejected by any archaeologist working in the field today. It would be to go far too far to try to explain it all here, but the very notion of several million members of a society leaving that society over night and this having no impact on that society is absurd. If it happened it would have resounded through Egyptian history for decades and decades, but astonishingly no other source of history even mentions it. Also, at the suggested time, Egypt was prosperous, not a country in ruins (which it would have been if the Exodus story was real).
The fact that there is no record of any serious number of Jews being slaves in Egypt at all, should also be a clue. In fact, slavery on such a scale wasn’t a part of Egyptian society at all, the vast majority of the Pyramid builders were workers, not slaves.
This type archaeology fiction is quite common among the fairly feeble minded Christian apologists, and should be beneath any rational individual. The Exodus story is a beautiful story, and it serves its purpose as a way to create a coherent and unified Jewish community, but to take fairy-tales are real history is quite sad really. I know that children do, and it’s OK, but once you go past the age of six or seven, such fairy tales should be well understood as what they are, fairy-tales. I mean, adults believing in the tooth fairy is more than a little sad.
adamdalgliesh Said:
call me what you like BUT NEVER LATE FOR TASTING M & H ISRAELI WHISKY
@ adamdalgliesh: I am not responsible for the misspelling of David’s name, I suspect that there is some sort of saboteur hacking this site who changes the spelling of people’s names in order to ridicule them.
https://www.snopes.com/religion/redsea.asp
RED SEA: Archaeologists Discover Remains Of Egyptian Army From The Biblical Exodus.
The discovery of the remains of a large Egyptian army at the bottom of the Gulf of Suez, 1.5 km offshore from the modern city of Ras Gharib, has been announced this morning by Egypt’s Antiquities Ministry. The team of underwater archaeologists was in search of ancient shipwrecks and artefacts from the Stone and Bronze Age trade in the Red Sea, when they came across a huge pile of human bones dated back to the 14th century BC.
The numerous clues found at the site have led Professor Gader and his team to believe that the bodies are related to the well-known Exodus. Namely, the ancient soldiers appear to have died on land, because the researchers didn’t find any traces of boats or ships in the area. Plus, the position of the bodies, along with the fact that they were stuck in clay and rock, indicates that the warriors had possibly died in a mudslide or a tidal wave.
Also, the large number of bodies points toward a big-sized army. All of these facts support the biblical version of the Red Sea Crossing, when the army of the Egyptian Pharaoh was destroyed by the returning waters that Moses had parted.
The recent discovery confirms that during the reign of King Akhenaten, there truly was an Egyptian army of large size destroyed by the waters of the Red Sea.
IF NOT MOSHE WHO???
At low tide, a large sandy beach is exposed between Protection Island and Newcastle Island, making it possible to walk between the two islands.
COULD this have been the situation for MOSHE? a low tide??
if you look at the relationship between ‘ras gharib and mt Sinai
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=cla3SSxh&id=B774C6CA0948B0FDA01732EA2F1D6B1F20F53D74&thid=OIP.cla3SSxhHzAp-9qdhukYzwD6D6&q=ras+gharib&simid=608055070511990661&selectedIndex=8&ajaxhist=0
it makes sense or for the egyptions cents.