Russia calls comments by Lapid ‘anti-historical,’ defends Lavrov’s suggestion the Nazi leader had Jewish blood, claiming some Jews in Holocaust did ‘absolutely monstrous deeds’
By AMY SPIRO , TOI
Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov (left) attends a press conference in Moscow on April 27, 2022 and Foreign Minister Yair Lapid addresses a press conference in Casablanca, on August 12, 2021. (Yuri KOCHETKOV / various sources / AFP)
Russia’s Foreign Ministry said Tuesday that Israel supports the “neo-Nazi regime” in Ukraine, as tensions between Moscow and Jerusalem ratcheted up following Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov’s incendiary remarks on the Holocaust earlier this week.
In a statement on Tuesday, Russia accused Foreign Minister Yair Lapid of making “anti-historical statements” that “largely explain why the current Israeli government supports the neo-Nazi regime in Kyiv.”
The statement cited “examples of cooperation between Jews and the Nazis” during the Holocaust, noting the Judenrat councils formed in many Jewish communities and those who ran them, “some of whom are remembered for absolutely monstrous deeds.”
The Russian Foreign Ministry claimed that while during the Holocaust “some Jews were forced to participate in crimes,” Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, who is Jewish, “does this quite consciously and quite voluntarily.” The statement also claimed that Ukraine is currently home to “the most extreme antisemitism.”<
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Moscow accused Zelensky of “hiding behind his origins” while he consorts with neo-Nazis and the “spiritual and blood heirs of the executioners of his people.”
Israel — along with many Western nations — harshly criticized Lavrov for comments made on Sunday claiming that “Hitler also had Jewish blood” and that “some of the worst antisemites are Jews.” Lavrov made the remarks in an interview with an Italian news outlet while attempting to justify the oft-repeated Russian talking point that it invaded Ukraine in an effort to “de-Nazify” a country led by a Jewish president.
Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelensky speaks during a joint news conference with International Atomic Energy Agency Director General Rafael Grossi in Kyiv, Ukraine, April 26, 2022. (AP/Efrem Lukatsky)<
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In remarks Tuesday, Zelensky reacted to Lavrov’s statements, saying: “These words mean that Russia’s top diplomat is blaming the Jewish people for Nazi crimes,” he said. “No words.”
Russian Ambassador to Israel Anatoly Viktorov was summoned to the Foreign Ministry on Monday for a discussion on the comments, which Lapid called “unforgivable.”
Lapid said Tuesday morning that the Russian government should apologize to Jews and to Holocaust victims for Lavrov’s comments. But Moscow’s statement on Tuesday showed Russia is instead more likely to escalate the rhetoric between the nations as ties have grown increasingly strained in recent weeks.
Early on in Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, Israel sought to walk a diplomatic tightrope between Moscow and Kyiv, preserving relations with both of its allies and offering to broker talks. But more recently, Jerusalem has turned toward supporting Ukraine, denouncing Russia for committing apparent war crimes and sending helmets and flak jackets to Ukraine, reversing an earlier policy of not supplying military aid.
In an interview with Kan public radio on Tuesday morning, Lapid said that Russia’s envoy had been subjected to a “tough conversation” after being summoned to the Foreign Ministry on Monday, “since it is unforgivable, unforgivable to blame Jews for their own Holocaust.
“Hitler was not Jewish and Jews did not murder my grandfather in Mauthausen,” he said. “The Nazis did it, and all of these comparisons to the Nazis are unforgivable and infuriating.”
Lapid added that Russia “needs to apologize to the Jews, to the memory of those who were killed.” He suggested that Lavrov “read a history book” instead of spreading false “antisemitic rumors.”
Russian Ambassador to Israel Anatoly Viktorov speaks at a press conference at the Russian Consulate in Tel Aviv, on March 3, 2022. (Avshalom Sassoni??/Flash90)<
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The foreign minister said he could not “rule out” the possibility that Lavrov’s comments were made in response to Lapid’s own statements accusing Russia of war crimes amid its ongoing invasion of Ukraine.
According to a Haaretz report on Tuesday, Israel is weighing expanding its military assistance to Ukraine.
After weeks of declining to supply Ukraine with military aid, Israel has amended its policy recently, first agreeing to send helmets and flak jackets to emergency workers in Ukraine, and last week sending an official Defense Ministry representative to US-led talks in Germany on equipping Ukraine.
According to a diplomatic official cited in Haaretz, Israel will not consider sending offensive arms or advanced defensive technology, such as the Iron Dome anti-missile system, but will attempt to find equipment that can be donated without sparking a crisis with Moscow.
Viktorov, the Russian ambassador, said last month that if Israel supplies Ukraine with military equipment, Moscow “will respond accordingly.”
Moscow has repeatedly sought to justify its invasion of Ukraine by claiming that it is working to counter neo-Nazi forces in the country, something largely dismissed by most Western nations.
AFP contributed to this report.
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I’ll answer my own question and leave this thread
1.
The reason Hitler invaded was connected to Nazi Racist theory and colonialism. Also his twin hatreds ofJews and Russian Bolshevism. Other reasons too.
And 2
If Russia had not defeated Germany then Nazi forces would have conquered quickly the Middle East.
The consequences can be understood from this study and I think Jews in Palestine totally genocided :
Nazi Palestine: The Plans for the Extermination of the Jews in Palestine
Book by Klaus-Michael Mallmann and Martin Cüppers
Sebastien you are making many claims in many postings
The history of Russia is complicated. It is very possible to falsify. Let’s examine this part
1.
The German invasion of Russia in 1941. Can you say why you think Hitler invaded? And we will see how we get on based.on what you say about that
2
So Russia fought 1941 on to 1945 to defend their nation. They won. Was that winning of interest to the Jews
or did it aid the Jews. If so how?
For example did it save the Jews in Palestine?
The Russian power fought for their own nation. I’m not suggesting they were fighting for Zionism.
@Honey Napoleon had nothing against Judaism. He wanted for Jews what Jews in the West have today. Or would you rather we be segregated again? Separate and unequal. In the countries Napoleon liberated, Jews couldn’t travel from town to town without a permit and had few if any legal rights.
@Michael Of course, that’s where we were confined and who murdered us mostly until the Krauts came along and showed them how it’s done. What’s not to love? Trotsky was a Marxist. The Russian Empire became the Soviet Union, the first Marxist revolution anywhere. National and ethnic differences were of no interest to him. In fact, his big conflict with Lenin and then later Stalin was his insistence that socialism could not be built in one country alone after the revolutions in Europe were crushed.
Everybody thought they could rescue Jews from Judaism The Pharoah, Luther, Napoleon, Lenin, etc. Foolish attempts fail and then Jews are punished for their recalcitrant behavior. Why ?????????
Sebastian,
Jewish opinion is naturally scaled pro-Ukrainian (also pro-Polish, pro-Belarussian) vs. pro-Russian, because of their history:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c0/Map_showing_the_percentage_of_Jews_in_the_Pale_of_Settlement_and_Congress_Poland%2C_The_Jewish_Encyclopedia_%281905%29.jpg/800px-Map_showing_the_percentage_of_Jews_in_the_Pale_of_Settlement_and_Congress_Poland%2C_The_Jewish_Encyclopedia_%281905%29.jpg
It’s just human bias, based on human experience. Trotsky’s attitudes were shaped by whether he got along with, or didn’t get along with, his neighbors as a child. Alas! Jews are human? This can’t be!!
@Reader Napoleon wanted to attract Jews to France and replace the autonomous ghetto system with full participation and equality making Judaism one of France’s official religions, but that’s separate from his proclamation of the rebirth of Israel when his army neared Jerusalem. He was genuinely horrified at antisemitism and abolished it wherever he went, serfdom, too, incidentally. His reforms were reversed when he was overthrown.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/napoleon-bonaparte
Actually, Trotsky was Ukrainian, come to think of it.
Actually, Trotsky was Ukrainian, ha ha.
News flash: The Jewish nation doesn’t owe anybody anything. God, maybe. The rest of the world owes us. Bigtime. We’ve been nicer than they deserve, the wretched ingrates.
@Edgar cc: Felix, Reader But don’t you see, Edgar, Trotsky was Russian and Trotsky was love so Russia is love and if we don’t support this war with Trotsky and the love of Mother Russia in our hearts, the world will be destroyed (by Russia) so Israel will be destroyed so we will be bad Zionists and what could be worse than that!
Or so it goes, it would seem. I think this topic has been fairly exhausted. I know I am.
Edgar
Yes and Akiva the great Grandfather in the Pale had his teeth extracted. As a youth! I have read closely The Forgotten Land. It tells the story of a Jewish family in the Pale.
I am in a different period when the Collaboration was hunting down Jews.
In 1941 on.
And the present Fascists like Akov are descended from there
And the world is silent or just lies
Edgar…will answer you later. I know about that history and it is central
Reader
Of course. I would add:
1. The Russians fought the power of the Nazi Machine successfully…but how?
2. Could Czarism have done that/succeeded? No.
3. Something therefore had happened in Russia. That was the socialist revolution of 1917. Production methods had changed. Vital social change
4. The criminal role of Stalinism 1930s
5. The criminal pact with Hitler
6. Yet Russia still succeeded in defeating the Nazis
7. Despite Stalin the gains of 1917 had remained
8. Especially the army built by Trotsky – The Red Army – remained
9. Was the basis of defence 1941 on
10. The Great Patriotic War
11. Turned the tide of the total WORLD war
12. Had this not ACTUALLY taken place the Nazis would have walked over the British in N Africa
13. And in Palestine the Holocaust of the Jews in total for sure. Role of Hajj Amin el Husseini (This is well studied in book Nazi Palestine) was paramount
(Addendum…Sometimes Nations fight gloriously against evil and by their OWN struggle can help other people too)
Addendum 2…Those who actually today are joining with successors of Nazi Collaborators in Ukraine don’t understand much if any critical history
Russia ended serfdom 2 years before the US ended slavery.
The worst genocides of the Jews happened and, likely, will still happen in the West but, for some reason, most Jews don’t mind them as much as they do the Russian pogroms (I am not minimizing the crimes of the Russians where they did happen but they were not the worst).
The US, Great Britain, and other countries locked the Jews in Europe in WWII on purpose so they would be slaughtered by the “civilized” Germans.
The West hasn’t stopped encouraging the Arabs to destroy Israel.
If the USSR didn’t defeat the Germans in WWII, the West would complete the Final Solution throughout the planet AND take over the “accursed Russia”.
The only reason Napoleon emancipated the Jews was to make them stop being Jewish.
He was hoping that they will turn into Frenchmen and disappear as Jews.
@FELIX and SEBASTIEN=
I speak from the stories my late father and many of his contemporaries in Dublin told me. I KNOW that my dear father was permanently deaf in one ear, having had his eardrum irrevocably damaged to prevent him being taken away for his multi-decades year army stint. The kids were literally kidnapped. Very few retained the knowledge that would bring them back to their homes on discharge. So they were lost to Judaism. whole generations..
My father told me that as well as delivering bread, he had to be a watcher. The you/ng children had positions around the shtetl to watch for drunken Russians coming to loot and rape. The woken had their hiding places.
Too many people told me the same basic stories for them to be fictitious. My father did not know how to lie in fact. When he didn’t want to to answer or talk about something he just wouldn’t.
That the revolution benefitted the Jews to the extent that there were fewer restrictions on them was an unintended and purely accidental benefit. The revolution was not brought about to help the Jews, but there was no reason that they could not take advantage of the opportunities.
To believe otherwise is specious and unworthy of you, Felix. And Sebastien I don’t think I spoke harshly enough about Russia, certainly of the days in question over a century before the Revolution and even the time my father’s family escaped..yes, escaped, with false papers, even bringing other children out as their own. This was in 1893.
There is a book I have called “Dead Souls”. It’s by a man named Nicolai Gogol, and although made to be humourous, a satire, was based on fact. Estates were sold and valued by the numbers of serfs …….They were bought and sold like animals, and some estates boosted up the numbers of serfs by including deceased. They were rarely counted.
This was only some 30 years before my family got out. My grandparents and uncles were all grown up during this time.
Felic , there were more jews than just those in Russia Israel would have come into being anyway.
Sebastien and Edgar
I am saying more precisely that The Jewish Nation owe the Bolshevik Revolution a lot I do not mean to exaggerate – everything
So it illbehoves people to run down Russia because after all Lenin and Trotsky were very much Russian.
I strongly believe that there would be not a Jew in Israel today only for Russia’s fight against Nazism.
If you know any history you will agree.
@Edgar Your cynicism is unwarranted
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/letter-to-the-jewish-nation-from-napoleon
@Felix Don’t be such a worry wort. It’ll be fine. Boxed myself into a corner? Hardly. Only if I accept all your premises about this war which I don’t. If I did, I couldn’t be a good anything since you believe the planet is ending.
To continue about Bonaparte and the Jews. He had a highly exaggerated belief that Jews were universally wealthy and believed that his position in re-establishing a Jewish state would bring him untold backing.
He also “became a Mohammedan” when he was in Cairo, to ingratiate himself with the Muslims, …..at least for a short while. I have an engraving of him somewhere, sitting cross-legged on a cushion with a large turban on his head, whilst discoursing with venerable “Hakims”.
Concerning Napoleon and the Jews…Although he was not u=involved, I might mention a few lines from Labaume’s Memoirs. He was a French politician and Ambassador in later life’ but during the French invasion of Ruissia he acted as the personal, secretary of Eugene The Viceroy about whom he had nothing to say but good.
He noted that they were passing through a village of Jews, dirty verminous and starving………. He had no reason to embroider, I’m sure hewas accurate, and it shows very plainly what kind of life Shtetl Jews were forced to live by the accursed Russians then.
This is even worse than what my dear late father and his family escaped from, 90 years later… At least they’d been allowed to establish a bakery of some kind. But a shtetl was a shtetl, and Jews were restrained and basically circumscribed and restricted there. They had to watch out for Cossack and drunken mob pogroms and such “normal” events.
@SEBASTIEN-
That sounds Groucho Marxian……..
I assume that you remark about Bonaparte refers to his Grand Sanhedrin when he was in the Middle East. Quite an advanced idea for such a young man as he was then, and who knew little or nothing about Jews. Very forward thinking for his time. But he was a unique person in almost every way.
Sebastien before I sign off…
So I take it that you will now accept that you have boxed yourself into a corner. And that you are totally irresponsible towards Zionism. Zionism is over because there are no Jews left. So therefore by your present position of abstention in this war you are betraying Zionism. When the rubber hits the asphalt you are no use at all – to Zionism. Your presence today to all intents and purposes is one of bankruptcy towards Zionism.
@Felix
No.
Though it was Napoleon Bonaparte who really started the ball rolling.
Sebastien you are taking the position of strict abstention in this war situation. Is it possible that this war can end the existence of Israel?
As in – End the existence of all life on earth. End humanity. End Jews. How do you approach this as a Zionist?
So agreeing with the definition what then?
@Reader Yes, the Russian Jews were less assimilated. They were still in Ghettos but no, it was a lot more awful than in Western Europe where Jews were being emancipated. The ideas came from Austro-Hungary and Germany, the funding came from England, , and the activists came from Russia,.
@Felix Where are you going with this? If you google it, every site has the same definition: “A movement for [originally] the reestablishment of a Jewish nationhood in Palestine, and [since 1948] the development of the State of Israel.”
It’s not one of those words like democracy or self-determination, or at this point, Nazi, which are used to mean whatever people want them to.
Sebastien can I ask you to define what you mean by Zionism not to any particular person of any particular outlook but to anybody at all?
@Edgar I used to have a phobia but I gave it up. It scared me.
@SEBASTIEN-
Is the medical profession ever wrong…….Hmmm…!! It seems then that I do NOT have a phobia, I only imagine that I have……again Hmm..!!
My one time doctor told me unequivocally, that I had a phobia. I still wouldn’t take the anti-tetanus shot.
et al I don’t hate Russia or Ukraine, actually, but sometimes I just can’t resist the urge to play it for laughs when accused by fanatics of not loving flag, mother, and apple pie enough for the cause of the week.
It’s really not our fight. Would they fight for Israel, I ask you? Would they make sacrifices, take risks? Ask yourselves that. Altruism without the possibility of mutual aid in return when the situation us reversed, is a fool’s errand.
And any imagined moral reward is fool’s gold. Not chanukha gelt. No chocolate
@Edgar I didn’t make it up. It’s a clinical term.
”
A phobia is a persistent, excessive, unrealistic fear of an object, person, animal, activity or situation. It is a type of anxiety disorder.” Harvard Health
The left redefined it to mean “racism” which they also redefined to mean chauvinism. People who use phobia in a political sense are not referring to fear. What they mean is prejudice.
I have shown that Russia has been a mixed bag towards us as has Ukraine since becoming a country, unlike orher posters or authors who tend to be pro or con but it’s not where our allegiance belongs.
There are also Jews who say Israel should unwaveringly follow the US or jump on every popular bandwagon. . No. Israel must follow its own interests.
@SEBASTIEN_
I dispute your definition of a phobia. It would be better is you’d said “It can be” instead of “it is”. Because a phobia can have a material beginning causing later fear that the original “disaster” could be repeated.
For example, my needle phobia was caused by a childhood incident where a needle broke, and the resultant gouging and extreme pain stayed with me.
@Felix Dr.Strangellove Doomsday machine
https://youtu.be/2yfXgu37iyI
@FelixQuigley
I agree with you, and trust me, I AM afraid.
I think Russia and the West don’t understand each other’s mindset, and that’s why Russia remains or looks so gullible and the West keeps pushing (the Russian seeming slowness and lack of energy makes the West think of “the colossus on clay feet” which can finally be defeated and taken over).
The West doesn’t seem to understand that if Russia realizes it is dying, it won’t die alone, it will take the whole world together with it.
And Jews are in denial, as usual, until another Holocaust hits and it will be too late, and even then – for example, the Jews in Warsaw ghetto were dreaming of the day when their dear Poland will be free while Poland was largely going on with its life as though nothing much had happened (some of the non-Jewish Poles were also detained in Auschwitz, however their chances of going back home after their stay was over were pretty good).
When Israel is having problems, and the Ukrainian Jews are directed to Germany instead of to Israel, everyone keeps worrying about Trump, Putin, Ukraine, Lavrov’s antisemitism, etc., anything except the things they really should be worrying about.
Both Ukraine and Russia have voted to condemn Israel most of the time. Russia sponsors Iran, the PA, Hamas, Hezbollah, Assad. It is highly inappropriate to romanticize either. Workers? Phooey. That’s just a slogan. Are they good for the Jews, i.e. Israel.? That’s the question and the answer is mostly no. Are they systemically antisemitic at home? Not especially. It’s not an issue. Who can tell about the future. Sporadic antisemitism is the niorm in the Diaspora.
Tucker Carlson believes that the Democrats blame Russia for Hillary Clinton’s defeat and Adam Schiff said as much and pushed for war 2 years ago.
https://youtu.be/wGvO8b-tiaM
@Felix @Reader Good Trotskists were only supposed to support the Soviet Union as a deformed workers state, Russia is no longer even nominally Socialist and Putin is neither a worker nor is he physically handicapped in any way so vas gibst?
Reader
I think this.
The Russian leaders are in a big crisis.
They havel well defeated the Ukrainian forces. A disciplined Russia army backed by its people. Shades of the Red Army.
But no ceasefire can be reached because the United States of America has set out to destroy the Russian state. And while they rightly despise Zelensky they also fear him as a puppet.
They fear all the power of NATO unleashed.
They fear the massacre of the peoples of Donbas and Crimea followed by the Nukes on the border and then invasion by NATO.
War pushed on by the crisis in the home situation in each western country.
This is what John Meirsheimer forecast – when they see NATO advancing on Moscow then nuclear war may happen.
Even their stark warnings on this has not made any difference.
Everyone on this site should be afraid
@Felix A Russophobe is someone who hates Russia more than necessary. If it makes you feel any better, I don’t like Ukraine, either, except for boiled vegetarian pierogis with sauteed onions and sour cream, vegetarian schnitzel and Ukrainian Cabbage borscht, of course, which are strictly to die for.
But, seriously, I did defend the Soviet Union and Russia in certain instances in previous posts. I guess you missed that.
They should only be blessed when they bless Israel.
@Reader Yes, The October revolution was on Nov 6 and 7 and Trotsky’s birthday was on the 7th. But I can’t find a single mention of his name in this detailed timeline. Can you? Do you dispute this account? What exactly did he do in October {November in our calendar)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_Revolution
Sebastien you do seem to be somebody who hates Russia. Obviously this is a very real phenomenon. Your brain would be dead if you do not see that. So nowhere do you defend Russia. That’s a clue.
The issue arises with Lavrov’s remark on Hitler.
I think this has become an issue because of this Russophobia. I feel that’s the case.
Have you read what he said? What context? And your interpretation?
Also Reader the same. This is a very important point.
It may be all a form of the dominant Russophobia playing a very big role.
So I will stop there to see the response.
PS I was referring to Leon Trotsky.
@Sebastien Zorn
The October Revolution (the overthrow of the provisional government) was led by Trotsky and occurred on his birthday.
Allegedly, one of his fellow revolutionaries said “Happy birthday!” to him and Trotsky answered “Huh?” – he completely forgot about his own birthday.
Lenin wasn’t there at the time and Stalin had little or nothing to do with it, his participation, if any, was vastly expanded later for the PR purposes and to erase the role of Trotsky in the events.
FYI A phobia is non-reality-based fear. I am not a Russophobe. Russia was and is a mixed bag as is Ukraine today. I am not a Russophile, either, unlike some folks who shall remain nameless. I reserve that for Israel (and contemporary South Korea and Japan, culturally, but that’s not relevant, here.)
@Felix Felix
A Jew led that Revolution
Who, Sverdlov?
“After the 1917 February Revolution overthrew the monarchy, Sverdlov returned to Petrograd and was appointed chairman of the Party Secretariat. In that capacity, he played a key role in planning of the October Revolution. Sverdlov was elected chairman of the All-Russian Central Executive Committee in November 1917.
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Ya…
Yakov Sverdlov – Wikipedia
“From March 1918 to January 1925, Trotsky headed the Red Army as People’s Commissar for Military and Naval Affairs and played a vital role in the Bolshevik victory in the Russian Civil War of 1917–1922. He became one of the seven members of the first Bolshevik Politburo in 1919.
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Le…
Leon Trotsky – Wikipedia”
Lenin led the revolution, was supplanted by a party olugarchy and then Stalin
@Felix who had taken over the underground apparatus during the period between 1905 and 1917 when the top party leadership was in exile though Trotsky had his own party and after being a rival and critic, joined the Bolsheviks on the eve of the revolution in the summer of 1917.
The Soviet library sustem was modeled after the New York Public Library. Trotsky was in New York, where he lived in rhe West Village with his aunt. Lenin was in Zurich.
Apocryphal story: Trotsky’s aunt said dont go back there, you’,ll just make trouble.
@Felix
Who, Sverdlov?
“After the 1917 February Revolution overthrew the monarchy, Sverdlov returned to Petrograd and was appointed chairman of the Party Secretariat. In that capacity, he played a key role in planning of the October Revolution. Sverdlov was elected chairman of the All-Russian Central Executive Committee in November 1917.
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Ya…
Yakov Sverdlov – Wikipedia
“From March 1918 to January 1925, Trotsky headed the Red Army as People’s Commissar for Military and Naval Affairs and played a vital role in the Bolshevik victory in the Russian Civil War of 1917–1922. He became one of the seven members of the first Bolshevik Politburo in 1919.
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Le…
Leon Trotsky – Wikipedia”
Lenin led the revolution, was supplanted by a party olugarchy and then Stalin
@Sebastien Zorn
The mass base was in Russia mainly not because the Jewish life was so much more awful in Russia (if you look at the whole picture) but because the “Russian” Jews who had just started the process of leaving the Pale of Settlement were not as assimilated as the ones in Europe and because their numbers were much larger, plus the “Russian” Zionists were in many ways themselves the products of the Russian culture (which is much tougher and more idealistic than the culture of the Western Europe) – look at Jabotinsky, Golda Meir, etc.
Also, consider that all of the later Jewish Torah sages came pretty much from the Russian/Polish territories, and that, so far, no one of their caliber has emerged even in Israel while the ones of the older generation are dying out.
Sebastien what comes through very strongly is your RUSSOPHOBIA. But the workers of Russia fought for.the revolution in 1917 and won. A Jew led that Revolution. Rejoice Jews.