Ted Belman. I was thinking the same thing. At a minimum, all bus drivers should carry guns.
“If two armed and trained citizens had been on the bus yesterday in Tel Aviv, the terror attack would have ended in a completely different way – or it wouldn’t have happened at all,” said MK Moshe Feiglin after Wednesday’s terror attack in which 10 were wounded, three seriously. “But Israel’s policy is to reduce the number of citizens licensed to bear arms as much as possible. The main excuse is the murders that have been perpetrated by owners of licensed guns. But the truth is just the opposite. In 2013, 13 murders were perpetrated with licensed firearms. 12 of those murders were carried out by security guards or police. Their weapons belonged to the organization for which they worked or to the State! They weren’t privately owned at all,” Feiglin said.
“How many tractors running people over, knife-wielding terrorists or other murderers and robbers have been neutralized by responsible citizens bearing licensed firearms?” Feiglin asked. “So if weapons-bearing citizens help to secure the public domain, shouldn’t the State encourage responsible citizens to practice shooting and carry weapons? Why does it do just the opposite?
The answer is that the State of Israel is not increasing our liberties; it is reducing them. Dictatorship confiscate citizens’ weapons. ‘The State alone will take care of all your security needs’.
In the past, there were 300,000 citizens licensed to bear weapons in Israel. That number has now been cut in half. As a member of the Knesset Interior Committee, I was able to stop the trend. But we have to understand: Without liberty, we will not enjoy security,” Feiglin concluded.
honeybee Said:
I keep mine under my pillow as well and one taped under my bed. 😉
Max Said:
For You Max!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Fn36l_z3WY
Bear Klein Said:
Totally wrong. I probably have more international and cross cultural experience than anyone on this comment section.
Your hostility is a projection of your fear. You are afraid. You are afraid to have your illusion shattered. You cannot see your own world and not have the vision and strength to see other possibilities. You are a product of other people’s minds, you have no self.
Only a broader life experience can free you from the chains of the propaganda bunker that was built for you.
@ Max:
Max ans my questions!!!
https://www.israpundit.org/archives/63604104/comment-page-1#comment-63356000150295
@ dweller:
When is the last time you read or heard of a home invasion in Israel????
A ‘SAFE’ requirement is there to insure that anyone other than the one who is permitted to have one is responsible. To guard against another member of the family like children, so they cannot access it.
Logic dictates that owning a safe for storing firearms does not force any individual to use it in fact only to own it so he has no excuse if someone takes the weapon or steals it without the owners permission and uses it perfidiously or even by accidents. You are permitted to own a firearm and are 100% responsible for it.
Somebody steals your gun and uses it to rob or murder then you share culpability in their crimes. Every gun stolen winds up with criminals and or terrorists and hundreds are stolen yearly from homes offices and vehicles. Too many people are careless.
You may not agree with Israel’s laws and or policies re: gun ownership but we have no constitutional right to own weapons like firearms. Personally I think the law should be liberalized and the categories for gun ownership expanded but here I don’t consider such a right in principle only based on need not right. We ain’t America Thank G-d.
I have personal firearms and i feel safer knowing that every Israeli is not armed. I know that most if not all who do are competent and since most have had military and combat training and experience I know they will react properly when there is a need to use them…. You can’t say the same and if ever tested in reality I can see a real mess.
Curious that with all the guns owned by Americans they were not brought to bear against any of the terrorists acts in America ever. It was always security professionals who in the end brought their weapons to bear not the millions who owned firearms.
honeybee Said:
Newsflash! They are after everyone and in your case it is the NSA and DHS.
I don’t run anywhere, I go back and forth, I am fortunate to be privileged.
…
One advantage of being a peripatetic expat is that I can see the broader picture I see little differences between Western Democracy based countries. I am a Westerner , I represent Western democratic based countries. I am both part of my country and part of something bigger which is more important. If you small minded people could only live in other parts of the world, get a slice and experience totalitarian countries for yourselves you would drop your foolish identification with small minded nationalism, regionalism and ethnic prejudice and realize that there is only one humanity, that there are larger forces at play which is that of totalitarian system versus Democracies these forces are at play both internal and external to all our Western countries.
keelie Said:
There are thousands of soft targets in Israel and millions in North America and Europe. You can’t arm everyone and even the most vocal gun advocates I don’t think want that.
There is no way you can protect everyone from a determined killer and you can’t bring civil society to a point were you can’t and don’t want to live there anymore. That gives terrorism a cheap victory.
That more people should be armed I agree and the the rules should be more liberal. Since many as a % of our population have served in militry combat units they are a natural select group to be armed and permitted to carry a personal concealed firearm. Every government Institution is front door guarded, trains have armed security, Banks and shopping malls, supermarket and post offices. Buses are a problem and have always been.
Israel spent billions of the infamous security barrier yet some 50000 Arabs from the West Bank still manage to infiltrate Israel yearly and get absorbed into the various Israeli settlements around the country. Most come for economic reasons but all are potential terrorists as are the 1.5 million Israeli Arab citizens some even forming now ISIS affiliated groups but you can’t defend against a lone terrorist who on his own decides one day to murder Israeli Jews.
The ideal solution is transferring all Arabs out of Israel and the West Bank i.e, no Arabs no Terror but short of that protecting our border with the West Bank should be made Iron clad tight. Greater vigilance by the public and even bus drivers would help, more police who are always undermanned for their many tasks. Create special IDF units to only protect the border from infiltration and we know how and were they are breaching the borders. Make the PA pay a political and economic price for not doing their part in preventing cross border incursions of illegals into Israel.
Lot’s o9f things Israel can do to mitigate Arab violence against Israeli Jews but there must be first a recognition that there is a problem that requires a massive commitment to deal with it on a national and institutional level.
Arming everyone who wants a gun isn’t going to solve the problem and may create others that don’t yet exist.
Max Said:
I wear that very button and if I forget Yamit82 can lock me up anytime. Of course, there is that little matter of my gun under my pillow.
yamit82 Said:
I keep my “safe” under my pillow.
Max Said:
What you are saying then is that the Monties and the FBI are after you in North American and Interpol in Europe. Run Maxie run.
@ yamit82:
IOW, prove that he won’t be able to defend his home & household if the place is subjected to home invasion, unless the attackers have the courtesy to announce their intentions at least half-an-hour before they make their move.
@ Max: You read news reports and come to conclusions on things you do not understand or have never experienced.
You then make large statements which sound ignorant and half baked. I would suggest you learn to research, think a while, and not make statements that make you sound like a complete fool about a place you have never lived in nor understand.
yamit82 Said:
No, this is the logical extension of you being a Western Neo-fascist that believes anyone that doesn’t agree with you is an Enemy of the State. I suppose you issue buttons that say
“If I am not for Yamit, then I am not for Israel”.
In fact this kind of button was issued by Castro after the Cuban revolution, A dissident spend 25 years in Fidel’s prisons because he refused to wear it.
..
So you have no counter argument to my position on the right to bear arms. You spend your time trying to make personal attacks against some imaginary caricature you have created. Your mind is like a sewer, I’d really hate to go there or spend much time in reply to you. I believe citizens need the the right to bear arms to maintain their freedom, especially if they are afraid because they have much reason to fear and unlike yourself I hope we can develop an ordinary population that will succeed when confronted with criminals and not fail.
The result of the bus attack is the society you want – a victim society – a dozen people hideously stabbed – it is the society you helped create. You don’t want it any other way.
You helped make that happen.
Congratulations!
honeybee Said:
Canada?
I stay away from both Canada and North America as much as possible., I prefer to live in safer countries that aren’t overrun with Mooslims and not drenched in sicking warped propaganda and over regulated by a government. I’ve been an international person for decades. It’s very very peaceful living in places where I’m not assaulted with English news outlets 24/7. You don’t really understand how poisonous the media airwaves are to your state of mind until after you get completely away from them.
@ yamit82:
I just researched it.
Maybe Israel looked at Canadas guidelines?
@ yamit82:
That I don’t know. Probably too many people would flunk (or should).
@ dove:
I was referring to any mental health stipulation in licensing or obtaining permits in Canada. 😉
@ yamit82:
Good stuff!
@ dove:
Israel eases gun control rules after Jerusalem terror attack
The new guidelines will add Jerusalem and 41 other cities, towns and local councils to the list of areas in Israel considered “high-risk” or “high-priority.”
New guidelines on gun licensing went into effect on Thursday, easing the restrictions on firearm possession across the country.
Public Security Minister Yitzhak Aharonovitch approved the guidelines during a meeting he held on Wednesday night with officials from the Israel Police and his ministry’s branch that approves firearm permits.
The decision comes after a series of terrorist attacks in the capital and elsewhere, and the minister’s promise earlier this week that he would order an examination into whether firearm restrictions could be loosened, as a way of providing security in the face of the threat.
The guidelines will add Jerusalem and 41 other cities, towns and local councils, to the list of areas considered “high-risk” or “high-priority,” such as including West Bank settlements, where residency can make it easier to receive a permit if one meets other criteria.
In addition, security firms can now let guards take their firearms home at the end of their shifts.
Soldiers who served in certain elite combat units; any reserve officer of any rank; and firearms shooting instructors will be able to get permits.
People with older state-issued firearms can swap them for newer guns, and the police security branch commander can authorize on a case by case basis the carrying of military grade firearms.
Aharonovitch said, “The decision to ease the restriction stems from recent events and the need to strengthen the sense of security among the general population and due to the recent terrorist attacks that have struck us.
Issuing permits will be done responsibly and with scrutiny and discretion, and in keeping with the approved criteria.”
As opposed to the United States where gun ownership is a right, in Israel it is a privilege given to people who meet certain requirements.
The licenses have only been issued to those who work in security or law enforcement, or who live in settlements or other places where the state has an interest in them being armed.
As of earlier this week, criteria included that the applicant be over 21, an Israeli resident for more than three years, have passed a mental and physical health exam, background checks by the Public Security Ministry and shooting exams and courses at a licensed gun range. If given a permit, the holder is allowed to order a single firearm with a one-time supply of 50 bullets from a licensed dealer. He is required to retake the licensing exam and undergo testing at a gun range every three years. He also has to prove he has a safe at home to store the gun.
@ yamit82:
You can own a firearm in Canada. It just has to be registered and handled appropriately. ie If you have a loaded gun and a child gets ahold of it and fires it causing injury then the gun holder could be held liable.
@ Max:
Max what firearm do you own?
Have you ever shot anyone?
Have you ever killed someone?
Have you ever been in a life threatening situation from other people and if so how did you react?
You got a bifg f@@@king Mouth and what’s behind it is a shitty piece of cowardly AH. Watch out for the Muzzies in Canada they might get lucky and get you sooner than later.
I don’t think the govt of Canada would allow you to own a firearm even if you wanted one. You are more likely to shoot yourself than any terrorist. That might be a real blessing come tho think about it. 😛
Max Said:
Wew!!!! I was almost worried yu might want to visit!!! We got enough walking offal among us and don’t need more.
Logical extension of your sentiments would be to disappear from this and other blogs that are pro Israel and certainly pro Jewish.
I would never move to the U.S. because the U.S. is tooooo trigger happy PLUS too many churchy people there.
Max Said:
I will never go to Canada, because you can’t be responsible for you own self-defense in any way !!
Israel knows that their transportation system is a high risk area. I thought that sometimes they put security personnel on the buses during ‘high alert times’. I thought Israel was on high alert. Security personnel would certainly help as a deterrent. A would be knife wielder is more likely to go where people are more vulnerable. There are ways to reduce that vulnerability.
I know extra security costs money…..it’s a justifiable and necessary expense under the present conditions of imminent threats.
jlevyellow Said:
Another terrorized person! Well you are at it – lets not make them angry!
The bus driver was the first target- so much for that excuse.
You find solutions that work , not one’s that don’t so obviously you don’t give Arabs guns unless they pass a loyalty test.
—–
You got a bureaucracy of citizen zombies here , no wonder Israel is Fubar – 11-12 people stabbed while they waited for the “Department of Terrorism” to come.
….
It’s the same old same old in almost every country – there are two enemies of citizens – the bad guys and the policing forces. Citizens are the sacrificial lambs caught between the two.
…
In many countries a person can carry innocuous looking legal objects that can be used as improvised weapons but in Israel the policing forces are too proactive. This attacks individual initiative in finding improvised weapons and being proactive in self defense.
The knife attack here shows that Israel is one big turkey shoot with all the civilians being defenseless turkeys. In an over policed over bureaucratic state then citizens are victims with bulls-eyes on their backs.
This is really a major insight into why Israel citizens have no moxie, It is definitely one country now that I will absolutely never go to because you can’t be responsible for your own self-defense in many ways – I can see that now.
It’s interesting, a survivalist is safer in third world countries where one can take measures to be prepared to defend oneself without interference from government agencies.
1) If Israel is a democracy, everyone would be able to own a gun, including every Arab citizen.
2) Arming bus drivers would make the bus driver the first target, somewhat akin to “dead man walking.”
2) Tasers or some form of them might be a good gun substitute for the general public, with some easing of gun ownership based upon where someone lives.
keelie Said:
This is some old woman’s fearful imagination – nothing to do with reality of this or any situation. Reality is what is seen ,not was is fearfully imagined. As a matter of fact video from the scene shows how easy it would have been for any of the victims or bystanders to shoot the perp.
if only they had something to shoot him with other than the government’s big mouth.
..
The attitude you and the fearful old woman, Yamit, expressed are those of someone who is terrorized.
The golden rule is always fight back, never surrender, never give in. Live free or die. Don’t give in to terrorism
ebyjeeby Said:
I am surprised as well. I had previously read of armed plainclothes guards on buses and scrutinizing the passengers as they embark – now trying to remember where and when was that? – only during the entifada?
..
Why would anyone want to make Aliyah into the middle of a bulls-eye without being given a gun.!!!
…makes no sense at all.. (head shake)
..
Israel must have a mind manipulated population. The entire population should be raging to own guns and exterminate both Hamas and Hezbollah – instantly, without delay. I would never sit nor stand nor sleep anywhere without a weapon within reach. This is the natural human reaction to being threatened daily with extermination..and yet more than half seem to be dazed arguing which way is up and which way is down.
..
Does the government put something in the water…no I guess this is a tribute to the power of modern propaganda and socialization process. Those who own the propaganda system own the country.
@ yamit82:
What you say is true; it would be Dodge City. However, 13 people were stabbed, and in fact could all have been killed. So what is the solution? Let 13 people die or take the chance and shoot at the target person, knowing that if you miss, you will probably shoot one of the intended victims of the terrorist? Using hollow-point will help in some way, but that will not account for a missed target.
Of course the people closest to the terrorist would be unlikely to miss… Take it from there; what is the best answer?
Max says:
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
January 23, 2015 at 8:24 am
yamit82 Said:
Yes I would like to see that. Your analysis is based on the quivering fearfulness of an old woman. Are you sure you got cajones? I don’t think so.
If you have an unarmed population in Tel Aviv in a country surrounded by millions of bloodthirsty Jihadists then I call that truly unintelligent and dysfunctional. The population needs to be on a war footing 24/7. I especially think women, for sure women, and the elderly should be packing heat. And for sure if it’s Israel and there are children around there need to be adults with guns guarding over them. You sound like a misogynist parochial Muslim.
..
It took you about four posts to finally get around to expressing your point of view and at that you had to be prodded. It’s very neurotic – expecting other to know what your are thinking , thinking that they can read your mind. Next time just start with you opinion and you could try being more calm – your are going to give yourself a heart attack.
..
You have an idea that other people are generally weak and irresponsible, it is more likely you are projecting from your own insecurity. If the people are in danger whether from terrorists or criminals, whether they succeed or not they deserve the right to protect themselves whether you or the oppressive State likes it or not.
..
I would go much further than simply arming civilians, I’d like to see a complete overhaul in Western societies with mass self defense programs with a zero tolerance for bullies and criminals, capital execution, stand your ground, killing in defense of self property etc being kosher – criminals generally treated as fair game – fewer prisoners and more criminal corpses.
Another USA expression: “When seconds count, police are minutes away.”
I’m very surprised that Israel outlaws guns for civilians. I thought most Israelis had military training and were able to be called up to fight.
ArnoldHarris Said:
Odd choice for personal self protection but if for firing range use understandable.
FMJ effective for mil use whose primary aim is to immobilize an enemy target usually wounding instead of killing, can be armor piercing too. In war you prefer to wound the enemy over outright killing him because it forces the enemy to expend men and resources in evacuating the wounded, Hollow Points are for killing because of initial energy expansion on contact they don’t pass through the target like FMJ rounds.
With FMJ you are likely to wound or kill the person behind your target as the round will pass through the body of your initial target.
Max Said:
But I did verbalize what I thought of you based on your comment!!!!!!!!
I think you are an Idiot based on the above comment showing your arrogance and stupidity = Idiot!!!.
Early morning bus traffic is packed with kids going to school, lots of women going to work and elderly…. The exact demographics least likely to be armed. Lets say some were armed on a packed bus and with the initial hysteria few knew what was happening and when they did lets say several people from different angles drew their weapons and shot erratically some may have hit their target others innocent passengers….. In such a situation would you see them all armed and using their weapons simultaneously on a packed crowed bus?????
Your criticism shows your ignorance and what I said stupidity.
By the way, what weapons do you own? Have you ever shot and killed or wounded a member of your esteemed humanity? Besides soiling your pants would you be capable of killing another person, a human being? Based on all your previous comments I have doubts.
@ ArnoldHarris:
As I recall, the “200-million” figure was the one frequently cited some 40 yrs ago.
— I daresay, it’s grown a bissele since then. . . .
Why do you incline to hardball ammo over hollowpoint? — or was that only in regard to reloading specifically?
@ yamit82:
For US??? — my goodness, from the arc of the thread, it’s clear that the Mad one had none other than PresentCompany in mind when asking into the growing conditions of the cave.
Are you accustomed to taking your own ‘cures’?
I am happy to write that I am in full accord with Feiglin’s suggestion to allow Israeli citizens the right of self-protection which can only be achieved by the right to arm themselves against random attacks by jihad-minded terrorists. Here in Wisconsin USA, I served for many years as an election volunteer coordinator (EVC) for the National Rifle Association’s Institute of Legislative Affairs.
It took many years and dozens of public hearings over those years for Wisconsin to join the now-numerous US states in which citizens may obtain permits to carry concealed firearms on a “shall issue” basis. “Shall issue” means that the authorizing agency must issue an applicant’s permit unless they have evidence to support denial of issue. In other words, the office of the attorney general of the state is not permitted to issue these permits solely to people — typically well connected — who want permits and who just happen to be acquainted with a member of the state legislature.
What turned the tables for us was specifically was the fact that Scott Walker was elected governor of Wisconsin, backed by both houses of the Wisconsin State Legislature under solid control of the Republican Party. Which is one of the reasons I vote mostly straight Republican with few exceptions, and those mainly for local offices.
I have a lot of background with firearms, going back to my high school years on the school rifle team, service in the US Army including duties as a basic training cadreman, specialized training as a gun-range safety officer for pistols and submachine guns, and experience as co-organizer for about 10 years of action submachine gun matches (speed and accuracy), in which I was one of the shooting course designers. Yes, I own firearms of all kinds. And I am happy to report that I do my own reloading: .45 caliber 230 grain full metal jacket (FMJ) hardball ammunition.
You could truthfully say that the more than 200 million civilian-owned guns in America make us the world’s largest army. And we intend to keep it that way.
By the way: One of the most notable and steadfast supporters of citizen gun rights in this country is Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership (JPFO), one of the strongest and best-known allies of the National Rifle Association. So don’t imagine this country’s Jews are totally dominated by mindless liberal idiots.
So all of you over there in Eretz-Yisrael, push your government into permitted the best Jews in the world to arm themselves in citizen self-protection. Women as well as men.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
@ Boldeagle:
I’d like to know exactly what he said. I know from experience that pocket knives that can lock in position are banned in the UK, and I know that recently they were on the point (so to speak) of banning large kitchen knives.
I’d truly like to know the thinking behind the Israeli government’s disarming of civilians.
yamit82 Said:
There is Yamit lighting a Kalashnikov in the darkness.
So useful…
…
He still can’t verbalize his complaint in the actual discussion.
(“That would be telling”)
Hope that Chit-chat dumpster gets fixed soon.
dweller Said:
I can recommend a cure for you and Mad Max.
It’s hard to believe that a country such as Israel, with the daily threats against the lives of it’s citizens, would make it so difficult for responsible people to own guns. This is the height of foolishness and each death caused by an individual terrorist has some blame by the government.
I was in Israel two years ago and had a penknife in my pocket as I passed the checkpoint for the wailing wall. I showed the penknife to the person in charge and had to sit and wait for a senior soldier to come along and lecture me on why no weapons were allowed in Israel.
“Ok” I thought, “at the Wall I can understand somewhat.” But to be told I had to make myself defenceless when walking around Jerusalem, including some Arab areas seemed ridiculous. At a visitor who did not know my way around, I could not see any benefit in not being able to have a small knife on me just in case. This was not paranoia on my part. What is the government really thinking? Terrorists can kill Jewish Israelis and then be shot in the leg ten minutes later. Is that what we have come to?
@ Max:
Mold & mycotoxins.
There’s a fungus among us.
yamit82 Said:
Typical incoherent personal attack from Yamit.
And no one knows what that is about – shhh – it’s a secret.
…
Does anything grow there deep inside the cave?
@ NormanF:
Not only do such policies not prevent criminals & terrorists from murdering the innocent — but those policies ALSO embolden the bad guys: they KNOW, up-front, that the innocent will be unarmed, so they can feel free to include that assurance in their planning. (So comforting to know one won’t be facing occupational hazards like armed victims.)
A lot of police officers recommend that citizens be armed. It’s not a view shared by the police chiefs & other political appointees usually, but the rank-&-file generally seem to be quite understanding of the situation.
It’s important to realize, too, that police depts are not required by law to guarantee an individual citizen’s safety. That may sound bizarre, but court precedent has established (so far, on the state level in USA) that a police dept’s legal mandate is to protect a COMMUNITY (county or municipality), not individuals within the community.
@ Max:
Idiot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I was wondering why someone on that bus didn’t simply shoot that guy. I thought most Israelis were armed. For that matter I was wondering why someone didn’t profile him and have their hand ready on their gun butt.
..
Myth busted.
et tu Israeli another nation of unarmed sheeple
“Gun Control” has nothing whatsoever to do with guns; it has to do with control.
Rumour has it that in India, there are many small workshops busily making moderately accurate handguns. It’s all illegal of course, according to government mandates, but some of the people of India are apparently intent on defending themselves despite what the (well protected) “intelligentsia” dictate.
Gun control policies do nothing to prevent criminals and terrorists from murdering innocent people nor do they increase the police’s ability to protect public safety. The criminal stupidity of such policies was on display in Paris, France where cartoonists and Jews alike could not carry arms to protect their own lives and the lives of others. They became sitting ducks for terrorists who as it turned out, could acquire arms with no difficulty at all. Gun control policies only disarm the good guys while doing nothing to hold the bad guys accountable.
A popular American expression is: “When you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns.” There is much to truth to it and above all, no government has the right to prevent us from lawfully defending our lives and our property. If it does so, it acts as dictatorships, not as free societies do. We must resist it.
The right to keep and bear arms and freedom are inseparable. The free armed man is not only the protector of the public safety, he is also the guarantor of our freedom.
Israel needs to emulate Texas, Florida and other Shall Issue American states. Being armed is an indispensable guarantee of freedom and it also enhances public safety. If every Jew had been armed before the Second World War, the Holocaust would never have happened.
Arabs attack Jews because they see they’re defenseless and are easy targets of attack. A single armed Jew would change this perception and deter future Arab terrorist attacks. The state’s attempt to disarm Jews only cultivates it.
Jews must treated like responsible adults and not like children. Only an armed Jewish people will be both free and secure in their own country. This was a truth the American Founders understood.
Its high time Israel embraced it as well.