Ted Belman. Russia has just outlawed missionizing in order to protect the Russian Orthodox Church. Israel should pass a similar law to protect Judaism. Yes this is a limit on free speech. So what?
Lehava’s Bentzi Gophstain during anti-missionary demonstration
Dozens of activists from the Lehava anti-assimilation organization demonstrated Thursday evening outside of a missionary conference in Jerusalem.
The activists, led by Lehava founder Bentzi Gophstain, attempted to enter the building where the conference was being held, but we’re prevented from doing so by the police.
The missionary event involved both Arab and Jewish youth, attracting attendees with musical performances while disseminating missionary material. The Lehava demonstrators outside of the building warned those planning on entering the “performance” of the event’s religious nature, dissuading some from participating.
Earlier on Thursday, Jerusalem councilman Aryeh King warned that the event constituted a major escalation in missionary activity.
“This represents a major foothold by an organization whose activities are targeting young people, attempting to convert them to [another religion].”
“The fact that the event took place in a municipal complex doesn’t surprise me, I’m sad to say, given the policies of the mayor [who intends] to turn Jerusalem into a multi-cultural city, and hide its uniqueness as the Jewish capital.”
Gophstain slammed Thursday’s missionary event, calling it an open attempt to uproot Judaism.
“What the Christians failed to do to the Jews with the Inquisition they are now doing through the silent Holocaust of missionary [conversion] work. Who would have believed that the Jerusalem municipality would legitimize such a serious event in the holy city?”
@ yamit82:
I believe that at that period, it would have been very difficult to find 5 sane, rational men, let aone 12, so I place no credence in their asseverations. In fact, the very first thing said was that they did NOT recognise the person they saw, but after thought (remember these were simple Galilean fishermen) their fervour, driven out by the fact of the crucifixion, returned and then they said that it must have been he. To gather in a group was strictly forbidden. The Gospels and the Letters, the majority of them proven fakes, show that the belief was manufactured from the writings, rather than the normal way, that religion comes from a belief.
And, by the way, I’ll insert it here, I forgot to include in my post abbut Ted’s article, Christianity was not made the official religion of the Roman Empire in 325 at Nicea (at which a few “Bishops” were stabbed to death in religious arguments), it was neither accepted nor denied. The story that Constantine became a Christian on his death-bed is also a fiction, although today he’s a “Saint”. He was in a coma for days before succumbing, unconverted, although the monk whispering into his un-hearing ear said he accepted conversion by blinking his eye
It was in 380 that Theodosius made it the official Religion. Sorry to hijack your post.
@ Austin:
@ Ted Belman:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK_cYPAtQ-U
@ Ted Belman:
@ Austin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh38ygMiY5I&list=PL312F42427DA815BB&index=1
Hi RON…..HOW ARE YA DOIN?
Checking back in and it seems the religious war wages on. Sad.
From old school, taught by the nuns.
Remembering a student asking sister if we should convert Jews, her reply “why, they already believe in G-d”. work with those who seek G-d.
Anti-Semitism a method to divide us, time to eradicate it once and for all.
Pope Francis once state “Jews are our elder brothers”. I trust he truly meant it.
I tweeted him and for beginners asked him to call on his Palestinian friends to stop terrorizing our Jewish brothers.
End the war now.
@ Austin:
I am very impressed with your scholarship and knowledge. I also appreciate that you took the time to set me straight.
If I may, you were disappointed because I didn’t meet your standard. I didn’t write the article you were expecting.
I, in no way consider myself an academic. I read a book by Father Flannery called 2000 years of Christian Antisemitism. This led me to want to understand how Christianity came into being. I read about two dozen books about the era and specifically Jesus, and did the best I could write this article based on what I read. I didn’t read past the first century. Nor did I do a scholarly investigation of various subjects that I addressed. This wasn’t to your standard but it suited my purpose.
It doesn’t surprise me that there are other theories regarding some facts which I reported from my readings or that you disagree with my overview. I, in no way attempted to be definitive.. I did not read the gospels at all,
My thrust was to ask questions rather than to make conclusions.
I am disappointed that you didn’t finish it. I may have had some dates wrong but I pointed out some interesting things that most people are unaware of.
I still say its worth reading. As for whether I had some dates wrong, who cares?
@ Ted Belman:
I read as far as I could, but had to give up at the chapter “Ebionim”. It was very disappointing for me, because at one time i intended to publish a book on the “Origins of Christianity” and collected or/and read everything from Renan and Schweitzer, Jeremias, Schurer, Bauer, Strauss, Kirkegaard, Hereford, Robertson, Albright, Klausner, Cohen, Cravieri and many more than I can recall, during the 11 years I spent in study. Right to the Jesus Seminar, which, although a novel gimmick, involving voting, was not a serious investigation. Taking in even Allegro and Schofield as well; not to mention the gospels and Letters themselves.
I will say no more than that there are inaccuracies and misstatements of facts, along with poor dating and accepting the Christian story in doubtful places. As far as I got, there was no mention of the almost certainly that the Testimonium Flavianum was forged and inserted by Eusebius, in around the year 300, which is the belief of most scholars.
There is no question that because John was-in the Gospels-having been executed before Jesus. that this could not have happened before the defeat of Antipas by Aretas 4th of Nabatea,who was offended by his daughter being divorced by Antipas after a long marriage, so that he could marry Herodias.. It was all bound up with the tale of Salome’s dance….etc. All this would have made Jesus at least 45 years old, accepting that he was born around -7-9, a few years before Herod died. This is given support by the passage in John 8 late in the chapter that he was a man “not yet 50 years old”. This would also tie in with the date I suggest above of around 36 for the crucifixion. By living in the open and travelling over the country he would be weathered in complexion, looking 50 or more. In fact, Antipas appealed to Tiberius for help, and a Roman Army from Syria under Vitellius was sent to help. It stopped in Jerusalem on the way to attack Aretas, where the commander received word that Tiberius had just died, and permission from the new Emperor Caligula was needed. Tiberius died around the year 37……
Another point, when you spoke of John, you didn’t mention that Josepus says that he appeared on the scene around the year 6 and was exttemely well known for many years. It was around the time of the census taken by Quirinus. Although the gospels say that Jesus was born during the time of Herod, which would make a date of -7-9 likely, According to Luke, the people had to go back to their birth places, which would have made it Bethlehem for the Jesus family. But Luke says they were worried about the journey because Mary was very pregnant. This was at lest 10 or more years after Jesus was born before Herod died in -4.
You accepted uncritically that Paul was a Roman citizen because his father must have been one. Tentmakers then, were of the lowest class of artisans, and if Paul was born in Tarsus, his whole family nust have been from there. Probably the only Roman Citizens in Tarsus in those days were the Governor and perhaps some of his staff. It weas very difficult then to become a Roman Citizen. Herod helped both Antony and Julius Caesar from being destroyed, by hurrying men, supplies and other aid. He was also a friend of Tiberius’son, but he wasn’t made a Roman Citizen for many year after. There were generations of families living actually inside the walls, well known families, who were not Roman Citizens. It was a very special honour….AND, it ended with the death of the Emperor, until it wa renewed by the successor. Later Emperors made it easier.
I won’t go into the founders of the Zelotim or Sicarii, but they were in action long before you say. Records show they were led by Hezikiyahu, whose son was Judas the Zealot, (both executed by the Romans about 40 years apart) then another kinsman Hezekiyahu, and it all ended on Masada with the last kinsman Eleazar Ben Yair.
The whole area was a tumultuous, teeming volcano, a huge mess, and none of the Gospel writers-whoever they really were, except John, Knewmuch about Judaism nor Judea. It can’t be even casually discussed in the long article you wrote. Sorry but this is my opinion. I was disappointed.
@ Austin:
Austin, CA is a character who uses different excuses to come to this place and criticize us (the Jews) or to pinch the panda.
He is insidious and hypocritical when he says he is in our side and uses all sort of subterfuges to hit us hard.
He thinks of himself as an intellect. As soon as he sees someone (in this case you) with knowledge and intellectual abilities tries to insinuate himself in the discussion.
Give him an answer and soon enough will try to disseminate his opinions which are never favorable to the Jews.
Yamit, Bernard Ross, Klein, Harris and many others know him. Factual participants try to correct his fallacies.
He thinks only his version of any given topic about Judaism is the correct one. Everyone else is mistaken.
Do not be surprised when yamit, Bernard Ross, Klein and others start fighting him. The truth should prevail. His false statements make people develop hives.
Really happy about his presence and sometimes insults fly after giving his opinions of the Jews or Israeli policies.
He loves to tell us what to do when he lacks insight into the Israeli’s issues being discussed.
Welcome to this place. You have still to meet the humorist of this forum. Uses irony very effectively and is funny. The clever way she evaluates commentary. Honeybee.
yamit82 Said:
bernard ross Said:
@ Austin:
@ bernard ross:
Christianity is not a theoretical discourse to be judged on its merits, but a deadly practical weapon against Jews.
@ yamit82:
Curious American…. I often have doubts about the validity of some of your comments, although I’m generally a mild, trusting, naive person, who believes in the “tooth-fairy”…. I do not intend to offend you with my observations, but…..
Your comment about YESHU being a pejorative set of epithets about Jesus made me scratch my head a bit…(but found nothing)… So I looked into it and found….that the meaning you attribute to the use of Yeshu can only be sustained by a series of almost Kabbalistic contortions, such as, using the letters as an acronym, and manufacturing your meanings to fit.
In that case, which is likely known to almost nobody on this site…other than you..and now me…. your assertation that Yamit deliberately uses a name which defiles your god, is perhaps mainly in your own mind.
Af course, Yamit being Yamit, and showing brilliance often, with an enquiring mind, may actually know, snd use it as you say, but I, for one, cannot blame him if he does, because using this site to boost the malignant persecutor of the tiny Jewish minority who spent most of their time praying for thr appearance of a Moshiach, and in bowing their backs helplessly, who saw their daughters dragged off in priest induced pogroms, never to be seen again, unless damaged beyond repair…. I say..Who can blame him…. Not I. I feel the same way…
Yet, in this era, and in the only democracy in the Middle East, although riven with factions reminding me of the period just before Jerusalem fell (according to Josephus) I can say “gey gezunter heyt”.
The interestyamit82 Said:
Superserssionism and replacement theology are the heart of anti semitism. the christians say they replaced the Jews in G_D’s eyes as the “chosen people” and that all reference to Jews in the Jewish bible(promises, convenants, predictions,etc) were transferred to them. while they ruled the world and slaughtered and tortured Jews the status of the Jews in their lands was evidence of their claim. All of christianity, and its existential justification, is based upon this concept. If it were to be proven false then the 2000 year old releigon based upon it would be bankrupt.
Today we have the first real evidence that their claim is false for all the world to see… and this evidence is what propels the supersessionists to double their efforts to destroy the success of the Jews in the land of Israel.
The promise to the Jews includes that the Jews would be ingathered to the land of Israel and the barren land would once again bloom.
today:
THE BARREN LAND OF 2000 YEARS IS NOW BLOOMING FOR THE jEWS IN THE PROCESS OF BEING INGATHERED.
this phenomenon has never happened before…. and one must wonder why it is the real Jews being ingathered rather than the christians who profess to have replaced the Jews. this is a fact which no one can deny… a fact that bankrupts the entire basis of christianity. It also endangers the 2000 year building of an immense economic empire and sphere of influence. IN a world of the secular this can be the nail in the coffin…..
therefore, it is important to them to see the Jews fail in Israel so they can claim that it was a false start… just as do the anti zionist ultra orthodox. Also, they seek to convert the jews in Israel so they can claim back their place as the replacement Jews. they seek Jerusalem and the MOunt in order to say that HaShem did not fully bless the Jews.
the success of the Jewish aliya in Israel is anathema to the christian dogma as it leaves them out of the picture….. haw can the replacement Jews be left out of the picture at the ingathering AND the blossoming?
this is more than dogma… it is big money…. new converts is big money… so how can they be sold on the repllacement story when it is daily proven to be false?
@ yamit82:
I saw the video and I agree with his tank driver that “that bible is a curse upon us”
Also, this person appears extremely ignorant of Jews and jewish history when he says that jews are sensitive jesus and christians because of holocaust, germans, crusaders killing Jews… he must be an idiot. I dont beleive he was ever a jew except possibly by having some jewish dna in him.
Christianity and Jesus has been a 2000 year history of libel, abuse, slaughter, enslavement….. but there is more:
I am the LORD thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.
Hear O Israel the Lord they G_D the Lord is One (not 2 and not 3)
Most of my friends all my life, due to location… have been non Jews and Christians. I give them respect as individuals but have always winced at the presence of christianity. KNowing the terrible history of that creeds followers in the past has always made me uncomfortable around it.
MOst uncomfortable is to hear them pray in Jesus name… which to me as a rarely practicing Jew, sounds like the greatest sin imagineable. I always feel that each time they say that they are step closer to “hell”. To me the cammandment is simple and clear with no confusion. If one is to beleive in G_D and especially the G_D of the Jews… as I beleive the Christians believe that they do, it is impossible to be confused. I find it strange that those who worship jesus think they know the path to heaven.
Cathy Said:
Seems being a Western librul democracy has not won or gotten us any credit. IF christians can’t behave themselves here and show us respect as JEWS and our laws they must be banned. WE CAN LIVE WITHOUT THEIR TOURISM $$$$$$$$$$ Lot’s of rich Chinese and Asians.
@ Austin:
I’ve known several missionaries who had licenses but then were sent back to the US after awhile. I never was told why they lost their resident status, but someone must have thought they were proselytizing. I wasn’t clear in my previous comment. Churches and missionaries need licenses, but they still cannot go out and accost people on the streets. They can hold programs which of course no one has to attend. If people go unwittingly, how long should it take for them to realize what’s going on and walk out? I’ve been to such programs before, and the singers etc. were not allowed to preach and if they did, if reported they could lose their license. It shouldn’t be so hard to send volunteers to make sure the law is not broken. But I would hate to see Israel ban Christians. After all, we’re always bragging about how we’re the only democracy in the Middle East, and we’re the only country who lets all faiths practice their faith. How can you ban Christian tourists from visiting what are to them holy sites? No the answer is to educate Jews on their religion so they know they are not going to hell. Many Jews don’t know this. I went to an Orthodox year of classes to learn more about my faith. they didn’t talk about the world to come and life after death until the very last session!! Come on- it needs to be top priority. Constantine’s Sword is also an excellent book to open people’s eyes to the history of Christianity. I see someone else mentioned it.
Judaism is not christianity minus jesus
@ Ted Belman:
Worth reading
Today’s Reality of Christian Missionizing in Israel
http://jewishisrael.ning.com/profiles/blogs/todays-reality-of-christian-missionizing-in-israel
Evangelical missionary Joel Rosenberg implores Christians to convert Jews to a belief in jesus (excerpts, Billy Graham Training Center, 3/2015)
Missionary Joel Rosenberg claims that “the worst act of anti-Semitism” is to deny Jews “the way to heaven” and to “send them to hell” by not sharing the gospel.
Rosenberg made Aliyah as a Christian last year and continues his missionary efforts in Israel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RooDfhQwrH4
Laurie Cardozo-Moore explores a new and growing cross-denominational Christian anti-Semitism (excerpts)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcqzdJFUHao
Messianic Christian finds IDF service an opportunity to bring Jewish soldiers to christ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnC71lyy2VM
I wrote this 10 years ago. The Historical Jesus.
It is interesting but long.
@ Austin:
Thanks … I know of the book but have not yet read it but I will soon. todah!!!!!!!!!!!
@ Felix Quigley:
Well said Felix.
Even if there were no law outlawing prozelitizing, I would expect Christians to refrain from do it because of their history of persecuting Jews. This history in part involved Christians forcing Jews to convert. It was based on the supremacy theory. The way I see it so is missionizing.
Jews don’t bother or target Muslims or Christians. Christians and Muslims should not bother Jews, kill them or try to convert them.
MISSIONARIES IN ISRAEL
They are spiritual terrorists more dangerous and more insidious than Arab and Muslim terrorists. Same goals different methods.
I would ban all christians their symbols and places of worship in ISRAEL. There is no way we can enforce anti-missionary activities in Israel. TOO many conflicting Israeli opinions and vested interests to enforce such laws.
@ CuriousAmerican:
I really think you have overstepped a little here. I am more certain that I read several years ago that the Israel govt had passed laws forbidding missionary work amongst the Jews. At that time they had been making particular pests of themselves. Like many if not all laws often dwindle, from lassitude, and because something else has come up to arouse the govt interest.
If you have definite evidence to the contrary, please, for my benefit, print it here, and I will thank you and apologise.
The govt has handled the Mission problem the way it’s handling the AREA C situation, where 2-3 years ago you couldn’t find any Arabs, and today, they are moving in with gusto, urged by the EU and lack of Israel Govt opposition, building and planting…
I always call such things “A Typical Yiddishe Business”.. Starts with fanfare and enda with the last squeaks of the worn out melodeon.
@ CuriousAmerican:
Toledoth Yeshu
Haaaaa 😛
“If there should stand up in your midst a prophet or a dreamer of a dream, and he will produce to you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes about, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us follow gods of others that you did not know and we shall worship them’ — do not hearken to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer of a dream; for, HaShem, your God, is testing you to know whether you love HaShem, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul. HaShem, your God, shall you follow, and Him shall you fear; His Commandments shall you observe, and to His Voice shall you hearken; Him shall you serve, and to Him shall you cleave.” (Deuteronomy 13:2-5).
And just so that doubt should not creep into our souls about G-d’s Faithfulness to His own Word, the Prophet Samuel reminds us that:
“‘Moreover, the Eternal One of Israel does not lie and does not relent, for He is not a human that He should relent.'” (I Samuel 15:29),
echoing the earlier words of the Gentile prophet Balaam that: “‘God is not a man that He should be deceitful, nor a son of man that He should relent. Would He say and not do, or speak and not confirm?'” (Numbers 23:19).
@ yamit82:
I considerably agree with the majority of your opinions, many of them backed up with factd and figures, and personal knowledge. on this point of discussion now, It’s really useless to debate a convinced Christian, whose beliefs cannot even be explained by themselves.
Concerning your comment on the Gospels, Although “John” was the most virulent, and not one of the Synoptics It was so obviously written either around or after the Bar-Cochba War that it is too far from the events, to be more than esoteric.
I would highly recommend to your reading a very famous book although not often heard of these days, “The Devil and The Jews” by (Rabbi) Joshua Trachtenberg. It is regarded as the definitive literature on the most virulent phase of Medieval Anti-Semitism, the most obscene and much of it reminiscent of “John” and which has never abated until this day. In fact, it looks as if the Goyim are repeating the Jew-hate irrationality today.. Only this time, they are aided and encouraged by Liberal Democratic Jews, who don’t know what Judaism really is. History always repeats itself, which helped prognosticators -like Nostradamus for instance, who used the 400 year cycle to help his pronouncements.
Don’t forget, Joshua Trachtenberg..”The Devil and the Jews”.
@ Felix Quigley:
I’ve had dubious feelings about some of your posts in the past, but…all is forgotten. You are a man after my own heart, and the only omission you made was to neglect the direction of the pitchfork, to the most painful spot on the anatomy. It would prevent the recipients from sleeping on their backs for a long time….
It makes me really angry and I have never been never will be Jewish.
The more I have learned about the role of the Catholic Church and also in a smaller way because it is smaller the role of the German Lutheran Church in MAKING POSSIBLE THE HOLOCAUST then the more angry I become at the thought of Christians setting out TODAY to evangelise among the Jews.
I really really really would ram them right out of Israel on the point of a pitchfork.
@ CuriousAmerican:
I originaly used the name Yeshu because that’s how Jews historically referred to your man-god. I can use jesus but persoally find the name offensive. I admit that when I realized how offensive you took my use the more I enjoyed and was motivated to use it. 😛
A very plausible explanation for how and why Jews became so hated by believers in the YESHU-god of love-your-neighbor-as-yourself. It’s not because the Jews killed yeshu as the Gospels – mainly that of John – say. It’s because the theology of evangelical/fundamentalist christianity holds that Jews know perfectly well that Yeshu christ was the Messiah but they deny him anyway. And how else can this be seen but as a deliberate act of choosing evil? Who else could do such a thing but Satan and his servants? This is the unerpining christian anti-Semitic mindset. Consequently, Only in a christian country can Holocaust Revisionism [the idea that the Nazis never tried to exterminate the Jews] be taken seriously. Because only christians could believe that Jews are so wholly evil and so supernaturally-empowered by evil forces that they could successfully perpetrate the monumental conspiracy that would be necessary to get people to believe such a thing if it weren’t true. And even of those people who accept the reality of the Nazi genocide of the Jews only a christian could believe that innocent and harmless Jews were dispatched to hell while the Nazis who killed them were forgiven by G-d and admitted to heaven. There are no people who are more despised than Jews.
If you want to know what someone really thinks of you, look at what they’re willing to believe about you.
Judaism is not in competition with christianity for converts. Jews don’t worry about who the Messiah is because, for Jews, the Messiah is just the political ruler in the line of David who will appear when it’s time for the real-life Jewish version of the Dawn of Living Dead. The Messiah doesn’t have anything to do with Jews’ relationship to their G-d.
To bring some clarification to the discussion:
1. It’s my understanding that Israel does have laws regarding missionaries-It is illegal to proselytize unless one is given a license from the state. The list should be made public so all Israelis know who is legal and who is not. Of course, that doesn’t mean Christian Israeli citizens don’t casually proselytize to their friends. For this reason, I think it important for Israel to teach Judaism with the addition of how to respond to missionaries. If Jews really understand Judaism,, they can refute the lies of Christianity.
2. that said, I also think some Zionist Christians are great friends and supporters of Israel. My good Christian friends won’t proselytize with me but we realize that we have a lot in common between the two faiths.
3. Jews have to take some responsibility for the way Christianity has turned out. In the beginning when goyim started hanging around the synagogues and wanted to talk about this new teaching, Jews encouraged them to start their own meeting places. Maybe we could have taught them the Noachide laws and stopped this new religion at the start. But even so it wasn’t catching on that much until Constantine started using it as a means to extend his power. And the rest is history.
CuriousAmerican Said:
BULL!!!!!!!! They oppose rabbinic authority because it is an iron shield protecting Judaism from christian attempts to eradicate and supersede Judaism.
Simplistically, if JEWS ARE RIGHT christianity IS WRONG (false teaching-beliefs). That JEWS STILL EXIST AND REJECT christian doctrine and yushka remains an existential threat to christianity. Accordingly if they can’t eradicate Judaism it’s only logical in their perverted pov that only by eradicating Jews can they ultimately succeed.
Constantine’s Sword: The Church and the Jews — A History
My apologies that the above comments to Curious American has the quotes in the wrong paragraphs. Hope it’s not too confusing. A little difficult to edit after the fact.
They will show up sooner or later.
@ CuriousAmerican:
Not a similar comparison at all.
Do you find missionaries offensive? Well, I find certain Jewish commentaries about Jesus offensive.
Yamit82 is particularly obnoxious with his pointed use of “Yeshu,” which he knows is not Jesus’ real name – and Yamit knows that I know it – but is rather a vicious curse meaning may his name be blotted out.
The greatest mistake the Jewish people have made in 2000 years was rejecting their true Moshiach and his ressurection. One day, the Jewish people will have to deal with this.
Most Messianic Jews [Jews who embrace Christianity] are strong supporters of Israel as the state of the Jews.
Lutheran paganism? You really have no idea what you are taking about. One cannot be both Roman Catholic and Reformation Protestant. They are mutually exclusive.
Just forbid proselytizers from entering Israel!
@ CuriousAmerican:
I have actually seen references to “Yeshu” in the Talmud, referring to an individual who lived around 160 BCE and also around 200 CE.
Scholars seem to regard these mentions as referring to an idividual who can be assumed to have been the Jesus of the Christian Scriptures.
As for myself , and of no importance to this post, I don’t believe that the Christian god Jesus ever lived, being an amalgamation of several cult and early religious beliefs, a well known happening in the concocting of ancient religions.
Gotcha. @ Ted Belman:
Something I’ve noticed is that several posts I’ve sent in are duplicated. I don’t know why. I’ve asked the editor to delete one, and I was assured that it had been done…but it was not done. I thought that there were adjustments in place to prevent this happening. Another too-quick response maybe?
@ Austin:
Just leave a few seconds between comments. The spam blocker is always looking for spam comments and one of the criteria is that there is no pause between comments.
Well this is a prompt response because I haven’t left thearea before the admonition arrived..What does it mean that I am “posting comments too quickly”..Am I posting too many, or writing them too quickly that I make some typos-which I do. I comment as soon as I see a post that I think requires comment, having no idea when it originated. Perhaps geography is the cause of a too prompt response..? Perhaps I should sit back and ruminate about it for a few days before regurgitating the completed comment….I am a tyro concerning rules and regulations circling the (to me) new means of internet exchange of views.
Sorry.
WRONG!
Most Messianic Jews [Jews who embrace Christianity] are strong supporters of Israel as the state of the Jews.
What they reject is Rabbinic monopoly!!!!
They are there formthe express purpose of destroying the JEWISH State, and therefore whould be treated as criminals. I always understood that there are laws on the books in Israel which prevent “missionizing’ and only allow missionaries to enter Israel as tourists, and BE tourists…
Am I wrong? I do believe that I read a news report in Arutz 7 and other poutlets to that effect, bout 5 ears ago or more..
The problem is this.
After the American and French Revolutions, the West adopted a univeralist egalitarian raison d’etre..
Starting slowly with all white Christian men are equal, then under Jefferson and Napoleon, embracing Jews, then women, and finally other races.
However, both Jews and Arabs, both feel they are the chosen people.
This can produce a feeling of superiority in some. BTW: Ovadia Yusef was lionized in his death.
Muslims have similar attitudes – only they are more violent.
Israel is not a state of all its citizens (as the West is) but rather of the Jewish people-at-large. Saudi Arabia only naturalizes Muslims.
As the West embraces universalism – a belief that liberated Jews in the West – Israel is embracing Jewish insularity.
It seems inconsistent to advocate for universalism in the West, but insularity in Israel.
Lev’s nitpicking was actually full of inaccuracies galore.
Most Jews who embrace Christ remain committed Zionists.
Sounds like a Hebrew version of a Catholic Inquisitor. Is Israel now to mimic the theocratic politics of the Medieval Spain? You are doing exactly what you condemned the Gentiles for in the 16th century.
Ted, you are a lawyer?!
Of course, they are entitled to free speech. It is a natural right.
What they are not entitled to is residency.
Ted, you are hovering close to Sharia territory, now.
If Russia – with its history of tyranny – is your example of action, then you are getting desperate.
To compare Missionizing to a Holocaust is positively ridiculous; and insults the victims of the gas chambers.
The Holocaust was a war crime, the other comes in under freedom of speech.
Do you find missionaries offensive? Well, I find certain Jewish commentaries about Jesus offensive.
Yamit82 is particularly obnoxious with his pointed use of “Yeshu,” which he knows is not Jesus’ real name – and Yamit knows that I know it – but is rather a vicious curse meaning may his name be blotted out.
Yet, we allow it under free speech.
If Israel takes that step, she will be one step closer to a theocratic state, and will lose a lot of moral high ground in the contest against the Muslims.
Finally, and most important of all.
The greatest mistake the Jewish people have made in 2000 years was rejecting their true Moshiach and his ressurection. One day, the Jewish people will have to deal with this.
Hosea 5:15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.
@ Lev:
Forget about all the nit picking. The issue is, is protecting Judaism enough reason to outlaw missionizing. Should Israel tolerate it in the name of free speech?
Missionizing is akin to subversion but pertains to the religion rather than the state. Both should be outlawed.
There is another point to be made. Most of the people doing the missionizing are not citizens, I do believe. Therefore are they entitled to free speech?.
Sunday is a change of day of worship, but it is not pagan. There are theological reasons for it. There are some Christian Churches – Seventh Day Adventists, and Seventh Day Baptists – which keep the Jewish timing.
Second, a lot of Churches do NOT follow [Roman] Catholic doctrines.
One cannot simultaneously follow Roman Catholicism, and follow the Reformation which broke with Roman Catholicism.
Lutheran paganism? You really have no idea what you are taking about. One cannot be both Roman Catholic and Reformation Protestant. They are mutually exclusive.
One cannot be Torah Observant, and eat pork.
You are talking without knowledge or common sense.
The cross is a symbol no more pagan that the Mogen David, which, by the way, is not in the Bible.
You might make a case about a crucifix – which is a cross with a statue of Jesus – but most Evangelicals avoid the statue of a crucifix and only use the symbolic cross.
You are into Sharia territory, now.
It is time to remeber that ALL “Christian” churches follow the Catholic church doctrines; starting with the pagan observance of Sunday, instead of the biblical Saturday.
They ALL come from the luteran Reformation; ALL of them.
The mask of christianism has allowed antisemitism to get to the midle of Israel and has give them freedom to try to convert Torah observant Jews into Lutheran paganism and idolatry (the cross is an idol).
Expell them out of Israel!!