Hi, Peloni. Let’s see if I can answer some of what you said:
why is it they have taken the territories surrounding Bakhmut.
Those “territories” you speak of, are a very small area across the river from Bakhmut center. The Wagner troops have repeatedly complained of not having sufficient training and equipment. The Ukrainians have had similar problems, though they are certainly more motivated than the Wagnerians. That said, we don’t know the total disposition of forces, nor the tactical plans of the commanders. As it stands, BOTH sides are in danger of pincer movements, as it was at the Falaise gap.
For the rest of your comments, it’s just a matter of “We’ll see what happens”.
Russia has never desired a domination over Europe, only a seat at the table, even if that table was headed by the US.
It appears as though Feeble Joe Biden dangled a worm in front of Vlad, and Vlad bit.
This is why…
I’m not interested in “why”, as in “what Putin was thinking”. The clip I referenced was much broader in scope than that. What matters is, what Putin DID, and what his options are going into the future. None of them portend good for Russia; all of them give an advantage to China.
[Russia] is European, whereas the US is not.
Wrong perspective. The US and W. Europe are Roman; Russia is Greek.
This is why the US needed to marginalize Russia
Wrong. Russia has been “marginalized” for centuries. It has never been a central world power.
if Russia were to reenter the European economy, it would sooner or later, and arguably sooner, undermine the US European domination, crack NATO, and strengthen Europe.
I have no reason to believe that; nor would it matter much to me if it were true, even in part. Rome ruled the Western World; then the Pope partnered with the Franks to form the HRE; then the approx. 10 major feudal dynasties of the HRE became the great colonial powers; now those powers are bonded together as NATO, EU, etc. This is as the Bible said it would be. In the end, the kingdoms of this world will become the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever. End of story.
@Michael
Either way, Russia loses long-term.
I would suggest that you are quite wrong on this point, and that this is the very reason why we the conflict in Ukraine was initiated twenty years ago. Russia has never desired a domination over Europe, only a seat at the table, even if that table was headed by the US. It was the US which blocked their attempts, likely due to the fact that if Russia entered into an organization with Europe and the US, the US would ultimately lose control, or at least some control, over the Europeans who they have been trying to lead since the end of WWII with only some success.
Russia has significant assets which make its association with Europe natural and essential, and which the US, for all its efforts to the contrary, can not compete. This is why when the US blew up the Russian German pipeline, it did not reduce the price of oil in Europe, it increased it. This is also why when fertilizer from Russia was sanctioned, it did not cheapen the price of food in Europe, it drove it upwards. Additionally, geography is important and Russia, no matter what false flags or fake news are mounted against her, is European, whereas the US is not.
This is why the US needed to marginalize Russia, capture her assets, destroy her economy and subject her people. A viable Russia, regardless of ideology or designs of conquest, will always stand as a clear and present danger to the US designs of controlling Europe.
Hence, if Russia were to reenter the European economy, it would sooner or later, and arguably sooner, undermine the US European domination, crack NATO, and strengthen Europe. All of this stands contrary to the designs of the US neocon led leadership and even some elements of the American people as well. Consequently, this is the real reason why the anti-Russian strategy was pursued by the US, even in the face of Russia having been the party to defeat the Soviet Union.
@Michael
You seem to be recommending this [fleeing].
No, I am not recommending the Ukrainians flee, as there is no greater prey on any battlefield than an army which has been routed and this has been known from eons before the Macedonians broke the Scarlet Band.
An orderly, strategic withdrawal is what was needed to save these troops the possibility of encirclement and to be able to fight another battle. In any event, however, should Bakmut fall, it would leave Ukraine in a crippling position, which is why they will not/have not withdrawn.
I find your summary of the events at Bakhmut an interesting one as it is rifled with contradicting premises. You say that the Russian Wagner troops are “poorly trained,m under-supplied troops at that” but if this is so, why is it they have taken the territories surrounding Bakhmut. Indeed, parts or all of Paraskovievka, Krasnaya, Kupiansk, Vuhledar, and Bakhmutske have been taken by Wagner, which has given Russia control of the east half of Bakhmut. Mind you, I have no interest in swapping propaganda posts over the details, but it is Ukraine who has lost ground in and around Bakhmut, not Wagners mercenaries. These poorly trained, under supplied mercenaries as you characterize them have held the Ukrainians finest forces at bay as they have contested this pivotal battle, so described by both Ukraine and Russia.
So what does this tell you of the meat or merit of the Ukrainian defenders, who have a tie to the land and a defender’s spirit to fuel their interest in this conflict. We can likely agree that the Ukrainians are not feeble soldiers. They have been trained by the finest military instructors in the world, arguably, and have been armed with the latest and greatest tools of death which the US and European armies could spare. Furthermore, they are fighting for their homes and families and an ideology which instills a significant zeal. And yet, despite all of this, it is they who are being surrounded and pushed back, and you suggest that this task is being accomplished with a gaggle of guns for hire mercenaries saddled with subpar and dwindling supplies and limited training.
If you are correct in your assertions, riddle me this: Why can’t this NATO trained, NATO armed, and NATO supported force wipe out a bunch of after prison mercenaries with no arms and no training. Do the math, this force from Wagner is a credible body of well veteraned soldiers and have been instrumental in bringing the Ukrainians to the point of encirclement in which they stand today. They have seized likely more than half the city to date and stand poised to complete an encirlement of Bakhmut despite significant troop deployments to prevent this over the past months.
You may not like it, but this Russian Wagner group is a formidable force, and disparaging them only makes the Ukrainians, themselves, a less formidable, less credible, and less dangerous group of soldiers than we both know them to be.
As to additional gains, keep your eye on Adviidka.
Ted & Peloni,
Here’s one view of the “long game” of the Ukrainian War:
It’s far more complicated than anything I’ve seen here. Essentially, it goes like this:
1. Russia sees the domination of Armenia, Georgia, Ukraine, Moldova and Belarus as essential for its existence as a great power, dominating Europe.
2. The war has cut off Russia from economic relations with W. Europe, but China provides an economic lifeline. The cost to Russia is dependence on China, but the new relationship is beneficial to Beijing.
3. China has its own existential fears, that the US and allies can choke off its vital sea lanes with the Middle East. Competition with India for scarce Himalayan water resources add to the problem. China’s most likely solution will be annexing historically Chinese lands (curiously, about the size of Ukraine) in the Russian Far East.
4. We’ll see how this pans out. As long as Russia is tied down in Ukraine, it has an open, friendly relationship with China; but day by day, it is becoming more and more the junior partner and is doomed to become a Chinese vassal.
If Russia were able to extricate itself from this war and mend relations with the West, it would become the junior partner of a dominant, NATO-led New World Order.
Either way, Russia loses long-term. I expect Greater NATO to win, as the Bible predicts. It seems likely this will all unfold in the next few years.
Peloni,
Tanakh says, “The wicked flee, when no man pursues”. You seem to be recommending this. Here is the current Bakhmut situation:
The most interesting take-away I get from this, is that all of the presumed “victories” around Bakhmut, the ONLY place where the Russian side is advancing, have been won by Wagner mercenaries — with poorly trained,m under-supplied troops at that. The Russians themselves have made no gains for months., and the Wagner singers are short on ammo. The Ukrainians, meanwhile, have been steadily reinforcing their (not encircled) lines.
@gardenofmystery Bravo. Fits him to a tee. 😀
Captain Zapp Brannigan is an egotistical military officer for the Democratic Order of Planets and Earth’s Government and captain of at least a ship: usually of the Earth Ship Nimbus, but briefly of the luxury liner Titanic. Later in the series, he is introduced as a Twenty-Five Star General or General Major Webelo.
Ukraine’s seems to have learned military strategy from Zapp Brannigan.
1
The phrase ‘Run you fools’ would seem appropriate right about now. As Russia has Bakhmut operationally surrounded, ie all roads are under direct and punishing Russian artillery, the Ukrainians are faced with the reality that all off road retreats or advances, to and from the city respectively, will be quite difficult given the now thawed grounds which are very soft and unable to be crossed without difficulty, even as the rains continue to add to this situation per the UK Defense Ministry.
Ukraine is reported to have some 10K troops in the city and more troops are supposedly being ushered to their support despite the Russian artillery control of the roadways around the city. Hence, it will be interesting to see if Ukraine will now flee from this battle and save what troops it can, or risk having even more cut off and encircled in a Russian cauldron. Either way, they are likely to suffer significant casualties in their efforts. Additionally, the Russian incremental gains have not yet ceased to advance, this despite the support of US arms, US intel, and US training, all amid the US warnings for Ukraine to get out of Bakhmut.
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Hi, Peloni. Let’s see if I can answer some of what you said:
Those “territories” you speak of, are a very small area across the river from Bakhmut center. The Wagner troops have repeatedly complained of not having sufficient training and equipment. The Ukrainians have had similar problems, though they are certainly more motivated than the Wagnerians. That said, we don’t know the total disposition of forces, nor the tactical plans of the commanders. As it stands, BOTH sides are in danger of pincer movements, as it was at the Falaise gap.
For the rest of your comments, it’s just a matter of “We’ll see what happens”.
It appears as though Feeble Joe Biden dangled a worm in front of Vlad, and Vlad bit.
I’m not interested in “why”, as in “what Putin was thinking”. The clip I referenced was much broader in scope than that. What matters is, what Putin DID, and what his options are going into the future. None of them portend good for Russia; all of them give an advantage to China.
Wrong perspective. The US and W. Europe are Roman; Russia is Greek.
Wrong. Russia has been “marginalized” for centuries. It has never been a central world power.
I have no reason to believe that; nor would it matter much to me if it were true, even in part. Rome ruled the Western World; then the Pope partnered with the Franks to form the HRE; then the approx. 10 major feudal dynasties of the HRE became the great colonial powers; now those powers are bonded together as NATO, EU, etc. This is as the Bible said it would be. In the end, the kingdoms of this world will become the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever. End of story.
@Michael
I would suggest that you are quite wrong on this point, and that this is the very reason why we the conflict in Ukraine was initiated twenty years ago. Russia has never desired a domination over Europe, only a seat at the table, even if that table was headed by the US. It was the US which blocked their attempts, likely due to the fact that if Russia entered into an organization with Europe and the US, the US would ultimately lose control, or at least some control, over the Europeans who they have been trying to lead since the end of WWII with only some success.
Russia has significant assets which make its association with Europe natural and essential, and which the US, for all its efforts to the contrary, can not compete. This is why when the US blew up the Russian German pipeline, it did not reduce the price of oil in Europe, it increased it. This is also why when fertilizer from Russia was sanctioned, it did not cheapen the price of food in Europe, it drove it upwards. Additionally, geography is important and Russia, no matter what false flags or fake news are mounted against her, is European, whereas the US is not.
This is why the US needed to marginalize Russia, capture her assets, destroy her economy and subject her people. A viable Russia, regardless of ideology or designs of conquest, will always stand as a clear and present danger to the US designs of controlling Europe.
Hence, if Russia were to reenter the European economy, it would sooner or later, and arguably sooner, undermine the US European domination, crack NATO, and strengthen Europe. All of this stands contrary to the designs of the US neocon led leadership and even some elements of the American people as well. Consequently, this is the real reason why the anti-Russian strategy was pursued by the US, even in the face of Russia having been the party to defeat the Soviet Union.
@Michael
No, I am not recommending the Ukrainians flee, as there is no greater prey on any battlefield than an army which has been routed and this has been known from eons before the Macedonians broke the Scarlet Band.
An orderly, strategic withdrawal is what was needed to save these troops the possibility of encirclement and to be able to fight another battle. In any event, however, should Bakmut fall, it would leave Ukraine in a crippling position, which is why they will not/have not withdrawn.
I find your summary of the events at Bakhmut an interesting one as it is rifled with contradicting premises. You say that the Russian Wagner troops are “poorly trained,m under-supplied troops at that” but if this is so, why is it they have taken the territories surrounding Bakhmut. Indeed, parts or all of Paraskovievka, Krasnaya, Kupiansk, Vuhledar, and Bakhmutske have been taken by Wagner, which has given Russia control of the east half of Bakhmut. Mind you, I have no interest in swapping propaganda posts over the details, but it is Ukraine who has lost ground in and around Bakhmut, not Wagners mercenaries. These poorly trained, under supplied mercenaries as you characterize them have held the Ukrainians finest forces at bay as they have contested this pivotal battle, so described by both Ukraine and Russia.
So what does this tell you of the meat or merit of the Ukrainian defenders, who have a tie to the land and a defender’s spirit to fuel their interest in this conflict. We can likely agree that the Ukrainians are not feeble soldiers. They have been trained by the finest military instructors in the world, arguably, and have been armed with the latest and greatest tools of death which the US and European armies could spare. Furthermore, they are fighting for their homes and families and an ideology which instills a significant zeal. And yet, despite all of this, it is they who are being surrounded and pushed back, and you suggest that this task is being accomplished with a gaggle of guns for hire mercenaries saddled with subpar and dwindling supplies and limited training.
If you are correct in your assertions, riddle me this: Why can’t this NATO trained, NATO armed, and NATO supported force wipe out a bunch of after prison mercenaries with no arms and no training. Do the math, this force from Wagner is a credible body of well veteraned soldiers and have been instrumental in bringing the Ukrainians to the point of encirclement in which they stand today. They have seized likely more than half the city to date and stand poised to complete an encirlement of Bakhmut despite significant troop deployments to prevent this over the past months.
You may not like it, but this Russian Wagner group is a formidable force, and disparaging them only makes the Ukrainians, themselves, a less formidable, less credible, and less dangerous group of soldiers than we both know them to be.
As to additional gains, keep your eye on Adviidka.
Ted & Peloni,
Here’s one view of the “long game” of the Ukrainian War:
https://youtu.be/Iibs7buNwxQ
It’s far more complicated than anything I’ve seen here. Essentially, it goes like this:
1. Russia sees the domination of Armenia, Georgia, Ukraine, Moldova and Belarus as essential for its existence as a great power, dominating Europe.
2. The war has cut off Russia from economic relations with W. Europe, but China provides an economic lifeline. The cost to Russia is dependence on China, but the new relationship is beneficial to Beijing.
3. China has its own existential fears, that the US and allies can choke off its vital sea lanes with the Middle East. Competition with India for scarce Himalayan water resources add to the problem. China’s most likely solution will be annexing historically Chinese lands (curiously, about the size of Ukraine) in the Russian Far East.
4. We’ll see how this pans out. As long as Russia is tied down in Ukraine, it has an open, friendly relationship with China; but day by day, it is becoming more and more the junior partner and is doomed to become a Chinese vassal.
If Russia were able to extricate itself from this war and mend relations with the West, it would become the junior partner of a dominant, NATO-led New World Order.
Either way, Russia loses long-term. I expect Greater NATO to win, as the Bible predicts. It seems likely this will all unfold in the next few years.
Peloni,
Tanakh says, “The wicked flee, when no man pursues”. You seem to be recommending this. Here is the current Bakhmut situation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBUFzJTiliU
The most interesting take-away I get from this, is that all of the presumed “victories” around Bakhmut, the ONLY place where the Russian side is advancing, have been won by Wagner mercenaries — with poorly trained,m under-supplied troops at that. The Russians themselves have made no gains for months., and the Wagner singers are short on ammo. The Ukrainians, meanwhile, have been steadily reinforcing their (not encircled) lines.
@gardenofmystery Bravo. Fits him to a tee. 😀
Ukraine’s seems to have learned military strategy from Zapp Brannigan.
The phrase ‘Run you fools’ would seem appropriate right about now. As Russia has Bakhmut operationally surrounded, ie all roads are under direct and punishing Russian artillery, the Ukrainians are faced with the reality that all off road retreats or advances, to and from the city respectively, will be quite difficult given the now thawed grounds which are very soft and unable to be crossed without difficulty, even as the rains continue to add to this situation per the UK Defense Ministry.
Ukraine is reported to have some 10K troops in the city and more troops are supposedly being ushered to their support despite the Russian artillery control of the roadways around the city. Hence, it will be interesting to see if Ukraine will now flee from this battle and save what troops it can, or risk having even more cut off and encircled in a Russian cauldron. Either way, they are likely to suffer significant casualties in their efforts. Additionally, the Russian incremental gains have not yet ceased to advance, this despite the support of US arms, US intel, and US training, all amid the US warnings for Ukraine to get out of Bakhmut.