- Likud opposes a Palestinian state, says party hardliner MK Tzipi Hotovely calls Netanyahu’s 2009 speech calling for a two-state solution a ‘tactical’ move.
-
A two-state solution is not part of the Likud platform, MK Tzipi Hotovely declared Monday at a panel discussion in Jerusalem, adding that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s 2009 speech calling for one was a tactical maneuver to placate the world and not an expression of support.
“We are opposed to a Palestinian state,” the Likud politician said.
I agreed with this when I wrote:
Netanyahu is offering autonomy only
Keep in mind that Netanyahu was voted into office on a platform which denied the two-state solution. The Obama administration succeeded in forcing a dramatic change in that policy. Or did it? On June 14/09 Netanyahu delivered a speech at Bar Ilan University in which he appeared to accept a two state solution with these words,
- “In my vision of peace, two peoples live freely, side-by-side, in amity and mutual respect. Each will have its own flag, its own national anthem, its own government.”
Although the world spun it as an acceptance, of a Palestinian state, I submit that the same words would apply to an autonomous entity. Notice that the all important word “state” was not employed. [..]
On June 14/09 Netanyahu delivered a speech at Bar Ilan University in …Remember limited sovereignty or demilitarized state is autonomy only.
CONTINUE
“self-hating goy”
I actually smile every time the Good Doctor calls me this. I think to myself, “What’s to hate?” I’m handsome, I’m overwhelmingly articulate, I’m following G-D the way the Jewish Rabbis prescribe for Gentiles, and I’m doing my best at defending the Jewish people and the State of Israel. Also, I have a lot of tough Jewish friends who think I’m OK. Hell, even Yamit says I’m OK! What’s to hate? As a Noachide, I’m proud of being a Gentile. As a Noachide, one discovers that G-D loves Gentiles too, that we’re an important part of HIS Creation. Even Rabbi Kahane (OBM) said to us, “You are doing what you are supposed to be doing.” That was the greatest compliment any Jew, especially a Jew like Rav Kahane, could give a Gentile. The Good Doctor only calls me names because he cannot comprehend a Gentile NOT living as a Christian. If I were still a Christian, with what I know now, THEN I would surely be a “self-hating goy.” Now, when I’m up working in the bush, I can talk to HaShem and I think sometimes HE listens to me (when HE doesn’t want to open up the ground and swallow me up!). It’s such a nice feeling to realize all over again that I no longer worship an idol. I found the courage to comprehend G-D as Avraham comprehended G-D, and in doing so I found the Merciful One. The Good Doctor cannot find this courage within himself: he is afraid of his idol, which is the typical cowardice of all idol worshipers. When he finds this courage, if he ever does, then he will realize in that moment that far from being a self-hating Goy, I am rather proud of the Gentile I’ve become, especially because I am confident that I am recognized (even a wee bit!) by the G-D of Israel. Now THAT’S an accomplishment! So….”What’s to hate?”
@ CuriousAmerican:
CuriousAmerican Said:
“I don’t really care about the land – pay no heed to my territorial musings.
All i want is to satiate my enormous moral vanity by ethically belittling the Jews who represent a threat to my Christian beliefs.
I love you, Jews, despite my hating you.
Have all the land you want, but just grant me the right to feel morally superior to you – please, i need this emotion!”
@ CuriousAmerican:
CuriousAmerican Said:
Do you listen to yourself?
I have left three comments [#44, 45, 46] on Curious American’s moral schadenfreude, but only one has passed moderation yet.
CuriousAmerican Said:
Let’s see what Dr Richard Landes has to say about moral schadenfreude:
http://www.theaugeanstables.com/2012/11/12/western-appetite-for-lethal-narratives-about-israel-moral-schadenfreude-and-replacement-theology/
DO YOU RECOGNIZE YOURSELF IN THE ABOVE, CURIOUS AMERICAN?
@ yamit82:
yamit82 Said:
Yamit, Curious American is the Christian avatar of Peter (Pete) Beinart.
He, like Beinart, claims to care for Israel but talks in a way that harms Israel – all set up to satisfy his desperate need to see himself as the good Christian who, unlike the immoral Jews, feels pity for everyone.
Should i call him from now on Mr Petey?
@ CuriousAmerican:
CuriousAmerican Said:
“Schadenfreude” means taking pleasure in other people’s misfortunes of any sort. It is a form of intellectual sadism.
And here, of course, we have a textbook case of the psychological process of projection: Curious American is attributing to a Jew what he himself is feeling, namely a twisted pleasure in morally degrading Jews.
It is his latent anti-Semitism that leads him to such extremes, an anti-Semitism that is obvious in the following excerpts from his ramblings:
CuriousAmerican Said:
Here we have a moral equivalence of Jews with the savage Arabs.
CuriousAmerican Said:
“Final solution”: a Nazi expression used by Curious American to imply a moral equivalence of Jews with Nazis.
CuriousAmerican Said:
Another moral equivalence of Jews with Nazis, this time through tweaking the Nazi term “Judenrein” in order to turn it against Jews.
CuriousAmerican Said:
And again, Curious American is using terminology that has been used by Jews against those lefty Jews that oppose Israel’s existence: the expression “self-hating”.
And despite having said all the above, Curious American still does not realize that he has engaged in anti-Semitic theorizing. He exclaims the following:
CuriousAmerican Said:
All the above examples, and especially the imputed moral equivalence with the Nazis, are considered by the Jewish community to be definitive manifestations of anti-Semitsm, for no other reason that they are so utterly false accusations that only Jew-hatred can explain their application.
But Curious American just doesn’t get it, because it cannot be easy to face up to how morally warped he really is, to how much unjustified malice he carries in him.
And any inklings of this malice that come to the surface of his consciousness must be projected to someone else, for they threaten his self-image as the good-hearted Christian.
With friends like Curious American, i’d say the Jews need no enemies.
I suspect you mean expulsion or genocide. A final solution as it were to the Palestinian problem.
Look, let’s assume Israel annexes all of A, B, & C. All of it.
How is Israel going to justify denying citizenship to the Arabs in Judea and Samaria, while allowing Arabs in pre-67 Israel to have citizenship?
No, wait! Yamit82 has an answer. Remove citizenship from all of them. Deport or shoot those who protest. Israel must be Goyimrein.
Mr. Devolin – our resident self-hating goy – can then tell me Yamit82 has superior logic; and why anyone who questions it is anti-semitic.
Do you people even listen to yourselves?
My answer:
Offer citizenship to those willing to learn Hebrew to a fourth grade level. They do not have to be college proficient, and those willing to swear loyalty to Israel – NOT TO A JEWISH STATE. Loyalty to Israel should be sufficient for them.
The remainder of the Arabs you can pay to move to South America, an area of the world which has absorbed 2 to 4 times more Arabs than the rest of the world; and where they have been historically well assimilated.
I am applaud you for wanting Judea and Samaria. I complain about the bloodthirsty schadenfreude of your attitude.
Do I get upset about Arab schandenfreude? You bet I do.
But in the end, I acknowledge Israel has a claim on Judea and Samaria.
What you get upset about is that I do not relish veins in your teeth, and cruelty.
Israel gets mad when Palestinians build a house without a permit – sometimes demolishing them; but a whole settlement finished without approval a year AFTER OSLO was signed is not a violation in your book?!!
I was never a fan of OSLO.
But this is a violation of OSLO.
I do not mind if Israel takes all of Judea and Samaria, but be honest: Admit it is a violation of OSLO, and do not lay all the blame on Abbas.
Israel had NO intention of following Oslo. It was a charade.
This is NOT a condemnation.
The Arabs were no better.
But admit it.
@ CuriousAmerican:
Modi’in Illit was finished in 1994 before Oslo. “Unofficial” settlements are just that, settlements without government approval.
Bypass roads were coordinated with the PA. They exist because Israeli’s aren’t allowed in Area A.
@ the phoenix:
There is a conference on annexation today. “The hardest question is what will be the status of the Arab residents after we apply sovereignty,” Nadia Matar states. – http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/163774 –
No! The hardest question is how to tell friend from foe among Jews.~~~ Placing the issue of citizenship at the forefront of the discussion is a perfect formula for derailing this conference and any attempt at opposing plans for the dismantling of Israel. Pushing the issue of citizenship now is meant to keep Jews divided and ineffective, arguing interminably about the Arabs, while Arabs consolidate their state with Bibi’s help. This citizenship issue will keep the crowd from agreeing on anything whatsoever. The Left (which includes many in Likud) must be extremely pleased. ~~~~~ Nationalists should concentrate on annexing Areas A, B and C, while telling those concerned with demographics that the issue can be sent to committee for further study – AFTER annexation – and that there are alternatives to citizenship.
@ the phoenix:
Hi phoenix, best wishes to you, too.
The cats are thriving!
I was about to abstain from commenting for 2-3 weeks (trying to cut down on smoking), and here i come to read all this BS. I postponed my vacation for a day!
Likewise to you and yours, Phoenix. There are still honest men in the world, thank G-D.
@ dionissis mitropoulos:
Yassou dionissis,
Best wiishes to you and yours (and the cats!)
See that you’ve recovered from the Dutch and now on to the American….
So many people to straighten out…so little time…
@ CuriousAmerican:
I prefer they leave peacefully. In any conflict People fall on both sides and I don’t want to see more dead Jews. That said, if they leave us no other option I don’t care how many of them get dead. Their choice, their option. Always has been.
Yup it is a human tragedy. Our victims and theirs but it is a tragedy inflicted by them on us and for them mostly self inflicted. It will unfortunately continue till we are rid of them once and for all. I have put many of them out of their misery and felt no joy in doing so but no pangs of remorse either. When I kill my enemies I do it dispassionately. My anger is directed towards my government who allowed the situation to deteriorate and even aided and abetted those same murderers.
Tragedy is when hundreds of children die every day every min. from malnutrition and preventable diseases. As a good Youshka follower why aren’t they your main concern? Closer to your home, there is a murder every 2 hrs in Chicago, why is that not a greater christian concern than a bunch of subhuman excrement over here? What pulls a good gentile missionary to concern himself over of group of dysfunctional diaper-heads instead of Tibetans, Basques or Uyghurs for instance? What specifically do our Ishmaelites hold for you more than any other ethnic group seeking independence? “They [Children of Israel] provoked Me with a non-god, angered Me with their vanities; so shall I provoke them with a non-people, with a vile nation shall I anger them.” (Deuteronomy 32:21)
Could it be that you gravitate towards not only false gods but False peoples? Could it be because only these fabricated non-people are fighting the Jews?
@shmuel & otter
Is there NOTHING that could stop this slow train wreck from continuing its path of destruction?
Everything seems too be just smoke and mirrors, to fool the masses that allow themselves to be fooled anyway, and are WILLING to be fooled again…
Just about EVERYTHING is wrong with this picture.
@ Michael Devolin:
Dear Michael,
100% with you on this one (coming to think of it, not JUST on this one. :). )
best wishes to you and yours.
There is one more comment i left on the curiosities of an American, but it is still in moderation.
I f***k*** hate antisemites.
“And do you realize that the way you talk actually hurts Israel’s image?”
dionissis mitropoulos, that is the Good Doctor’s primary intention here. Remember, the Good Doctor’s reproof to all Jews: “No-one is innocent.” Jews and Muslim suicide bombers/jihadists are one and the same. It’s pure Amanpour/CNN illumination. The Jews are not unique because of their Torah: the Good Doctor’s Christian god rejected the Jews for all eternity, so it should be a no-brainer to the Jews of Israel that those “bleeding hearts” like the Good Doctor would side with, as he is opining here, the equally compassionate Hamas and Muslim Brotherhood instead of with the Jews of Israel. After all, as CR has pointed out, those Jews of Israel are evil and corrupt and are getting what’s coming to them.
@ CuriousAmerican:
Curious American in his own words:
Do you realize that your talk about Israel and the Arabs is just an excuse for moral preening?
Do you realize that all you care is to show what a bleeding heart you are?
And do you realize that the way you talk actually hurts Israel’s image?
@ CuriousAmerican:
CuriousAmerican Said:
Let me translate your statement: “i have
pityso much moral narcissism in me that i need a pretext to show-off and, therefore, i need to talk about these people who were [allegedly] ethnically cleansed”.@ CuriousAmerican:
CuriousAmerican Said:
If i were living in Israel, i bet you they wouldn’t want to get rid of me.
CuriousAmerican Said:
Depends on the gentile: if he speaks in a way that makes it abundantly clear that he harbors ill feelings towards Jews, then, yes, they view him as a threat.
That’s a healthy psychological response, what’s your problem with it?
CuriousAmerican Said:
Are you aware that the term “supremacist” is used against Zionists in order to delegitimatize them?
Of course you are.
CuriousAmerican Said:
No, not guilty by birth. But liable to hurt Jews because of whatever Christian sh!t resides in their Christian brains.
It is called a “reliable stereotype”.
Considering that your Christian ilk has persecuted Jews throughout history, it is only natural for a psychologically stable Jew to form such a stereotype.
Hey, even i have formed one – having met you in Israpundit has greatly augmented the formation process of said stereotype in me.
CuriousAmerican Said:
You merely pointed out that there is moral equivalence between Jews and Christians but, in reality, there is none: you have done far more to them than they have ever done to you.
CuriousAmerican Said:
Oh, there is a very clear difference:
The Arabs are firing rockets against children, Michael does not.
It’s getting harder and harder nowadays to find a decent moral equivalence of Jews with some or other scumbag, doesn’t it Curious American?
CuriousAmerican Said:
Being innocent is not always a black-or-white issue, sometimes it is a mater of degree.
If guilt between the two parties is properly allocated in a 99% to 1% fashion, then saying that no one is innocent is very misleading – maybe even unconsciously anti-Semitic, in that it blurs the real criminal conduct of Christianity against Jews.
CuriousAmerican Said:
Well, i have already spoken to you in the past about your emotional coarseness , haven’t i?
Take it as a rule of thumb, even if you can feel nothing: we don’t talk like this about the Holocaust in Jewish blogs.
CuriousAmerican Said:
Now that you started talking psychology, let me expound another theory: your problem with your psyche might be that you hate Judaism because it threatens your Christian beliefs.
CuriousAmerican Said:
Oh, no!
You wish that were true.
And you would find this truth really beautiful, for it exculpates Christianity and allows you to cast moral equivalence.
Sad thing it is not a truth.
CuriousAmerican Said:
What a compassionate soul!
May i suggest that it might even have something to do with the fact that you are speaking from the safety of your house, which is not in Israel, and therefore you are not under the threat of rockets or suicide bombers?
@ Shmuel HaLevi:
If this is the prime minister’s plan BEFORE the election, I fear what he plans to do AFTER he obtains a mandate.
Hotovely’s rather disgraceful attempt to mislead voters is one more clear piece of evidence that fake-right-wing MKs cannot be trusted to defend Jewish rights over the land. It will be up to the people themselves to organize effectively to have their voices heard.
It’s rather sad that patriotic Israeli Jews have to prepare themselves not only against their non-Jewish enemies – terrorists and Muslim and Western governments – but against those who among their own lie to them and betray them.
@ Canadian Otter:
Today mid day Mr. Netanyahu re affirmed his Bar Ilan speech. Reported on Channel #7. INN.
Of course Ms. Hotovely is selling misdirection. And anyone falling for the speechster contortions will find him attacking Jewish centers to destroy them and not constructing a thing.
Just as he will not do a thing to prevent Iran’s nuclear weapons, Netanyahu will also not di a thing to retain Jerusalem or Har Habait.
“I do not mind if you build the settlements…” “Look, I do not mind if you stop Palestinian construction…”
The Good Doctor still does not comprehend that the Jews of Israel don’t give a shit whether he (and all the unctuous asses like him) “minds” or not. They don’t need his approval for anything, least of all for removing Arab Muslims from the land of Israel. The Good Doctor is hell-bent on justifying and/or legitimizing his hatred of the Jews of Israel and the very idea of a Jewish state in Israel. (Sorry, Dweller, but I have to disagree with you about Curio, as you call him: “If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck…”) The Good Doctor is practically taunting the Jews who frequent this blog. This is how anti-Semites get their rocks off. Christians like the Good Doctor believe Jews should have the approval of all Christendom before they make war against their enemies and especially when their enemies happen to be Christians. Poor Good Doctor, doesn’t realize that Jews have little regard for his noetic intrusions into Jewish affairs. But then, the Good Doctor believes he is the Christian “spiritual Jew” and therefore transcendent of the Jew as delineated in the Torah. Poor Good Doctor, can’t find anyone who will take him seriously and tell him what a great guy he is for discovering just how evil the Jews really are. They’re just as evil as the non-Jew! Hell, they’ve done things that even make them worst than the non-Jews, if only someone would listen to him and take him seriously! Then he could have that mental orgasm he’s been pumping for all this time but never achieving that hoped-for crescendo that will get him over the top. Poor Good Doctor, so pathetic that he accuses me of being a “self-hating Gentile” simply because I obey the Torah of the Jews and have repudiated his birdlime of a religion, namely Christianity. Poor Good Doctor, still hasn’t found the courage to repudiate his idolatry and become a real man and healthy Gentile but instead remains the insalubrious and even malefic Christian anti-Semite whose sole purpose he believes is to convince the Jews of their evil ways and, having achieved that, then walk them into the arms of his “christ”. What a hero he will see himself as: he, unlike all the David Irving types before him, finally succeeded in getting the Jews to reject their “Old Testament” and see the “light” of his “New Testament”. He will be recognized by similar heroes like David Duke and Pat Buchannan and Farakhan and Ernz Zundel (the list is endless). He will have become another Augustine in his own eyes, a healer to the Jewish masses and the giver of divine grace to those whose only obstacle of that grace was Judaism and their Israel. “Oh, happy day!”
SPEAKING OF POLLS
83% of Israelis: ’67 Borders’ Won’t Bring Peace
Poll finds that a majority of Israelis do not believe that Israel making land concessions to the PA will bring an end to the conflict.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/163754#.UOLPRGeuqI4
By Elad Benari
About 83 percent of Israelis believe that pulling back to the indefensible pre-1967 borders will not bring an end to the Arab-Israeli conflict nor bring a peace accord with the Palestinian Authority, a new poll shows.
The pre-1967 borders were termed “Auschwitz borders” by Israel’s former ambassador to the United States, Abba Eban, who represented the Labor party.
The poll was conducted by Dr. Mina Tzemach on behalf of the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, headed by Dr. Dore Gold, and was reported Monday in the Israel Hayom daily newspaper.
BB unsercuts his surrogate brain dead lemmings:
Netanyahu Stands behind “Palestinian State” Vision
Channel 2 says Prime Minister affirmed he still believes in the solution he outlined in Bar Ilan speech.
The Likud Platform does not directly address the issue of a Pali State because BB made sure it was not put in. He is a vile snake and a weasel.
Kiryat Sefer
(A combination of some sources I found on the net)
Between 1996 and 1999, settlers established over 42 unofficial settlements, fewer than ten of these were subsequently dismantled (Central Bureau of Statistics and Peace Now Settlement Watch reports). There are 145 official settlements on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, but about 200 independent localities.
New Roads: Between 1994 and 1997, paving was begun on 139.6 km of Israeli bypass roads in the West Bank and Gaza. During the same period, road paving was completed on 159.2 km (Central Bureau of Statistics).
Again you misunderstand me. I do not mind if you build the settlements if you own up that you are violating OSLO no less than the Arabs.
Here is a new settlement
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6210721.stm
Look, I do not mind if you stop Palestinian construction as long as you stop Israeli OR finally admit you are breaking OSLO.
I am no fan of OSLO. If you want to build, build. Just do not claim you are abiding by OSLO.
@ yamit82:
You and Tel Belman will appreciate the fact the Land Of Israel has made it into TIME magazine:
http://world.time.com/2012/12/31/the-west-banks-2012-the-year-of-the-israeli-settlement/#ixzz2GhourUQV
Netanyahu can say until he is blue in the face he is still committed to the 2state solution. His problem is no one else believes him and the facts on the ground tell a completely different story!
Happy New Year!
CuriousAmerican Said:
Dead jesus was nobody’s messiah. Not even yours. You just can’t deal with it.
@ CuriousAmerican:
Israel has not built any new settlements since Oslo. If you think they have, name one. The accords never put any restrictions on building within settlements. Why is palestinian construction not a violation if both sides
If there were a palestinianagreed not to make unilateral state that would be up to the Jordanians wouldn’t it?
@ yamit82:
Forgot: The first obligation of the diaper heads was to abrogate the PLO covenant. So far they are batting Zero.
Israel never promised nor guaranteed them an Independent State. Implied my ass!!! Even Beilin a few weeks ago admitted that they had no end game concept when they agreed with OSLO. Promises of a state if they were ever given were made by America and Europe never Israel. The final Status was to be negotiated and Israel always reserved the right to reverse their concessions returning-the area to status quo ante and by force if necessary.
Land transfer? What do you call Gaza? What do you call Area A and Area B? The diaper Heads have had from day 1 complete civil autonomy in the Areas Israel withdrew from. New Settlements? Never a part of the Oslo agreements. Any obligation Israel accepted in restricting settlement growth was never bilateral with the diaper heads but with America and there was always some quid pro quo when we limited our rights to build.
There has been no New settlement built by the Israeli government since before the Road Map Agreement but there has been expansion of existing settlements not so much territorially as within the existing and recognized boundaries of those existing settlements.
There has been Massive Arab building in contravention of their own obligations as neither side was entitled to create facts on the ground that could influence final status. In this case the Arabs are in violation of this clause much more than Israel. The USA alone has poured into the Pali territories almost 4 billion dollars of USAID funds for infrastructure projects also a violation of OSLO about creating facts on the ground especially in East Jerusalem.
The second major obligation that the PA was supposed to have accomplished after abrogating their covenant was the disarmament of all armed militias (terrorist groups) they did the exact opposite.
The settlements from a standpoint of callus Israeli Governments was a carrot and stick approach to the Palis. The settlements was the stick and the Palis would never have, it is believed even consented to Oslo were it not for the settlement stick Israel was wielding.
To prove that settlements are not an impediment to a negotiated settlement Israel did evacuate and destroy many major settlements including Yamit in the Sinai. Removed all Jews fro Gaza and some from the Shomron. All the Arab diaper heads had to do was to live up to their obligations and accept either Baraks or Olmerts offer and they would have achieved long ago most of their publicly stated aims.
Well we know how that turned out. Even BB continued building freeze including Jerusalem for the last 3 and a half years. It’s not settlements and never has been and you know that. The government of Israel never wanted the responsibility of administering an alien population although we did do that till Oslo and it was very successful.
Beginning of Dec. 2012 Palis Poll showed 87% supported armed resistance against Israel because they believed that Hamas won the last round against Israel and there is truth in that belief.
I know that in the end it will come down to them or us. I know that they will not go quietly into the good night. Therefore I know that we will have to push them out and those who resist will have to be made into good diaper heads. The only Palis Diaper Heads I would make exception of, are those over 50 years of age. They might be allowed to stay on.
Historical revisionism and relativism that you employ is insulting and lends credibility to my long standing contention that you are a classic Jew Hater and a Master (Jew)Baiter.
Truly supremacist claptrap.
Can’t say the Arabs are any better.
You do seem to be a self-hating Gentile, though.
The Likud does not support an Arab state.
Netanyahu accepted it with certain conditions. The Bar Ilan offer is no longer applicable.
The times have changed – 2013 is not 2009 and Israel’s interests are not compatible with an Arab state in its heartland.
And the Arabs have refused and are refusing to make peace with Israel. Therefore what Israel offered before will not be operative state policy in the future.
Yamit, the Good Doctor does not know himself. “Zeal without reflection is dangerous.” He cannot face up to the fact that he is a full-blown anti-Semite. Why else is he SO obsessed with inculpating Israel and the Jewish people? He cannot fathom that the nation of Israel is different from “the [Goyim] nations” because Jews, because of their G-D and their Torah, are very different from non-Jews. He attempts to transmogrify Jewish history as culpable as non-Jewish history because he cannot accept that Jews do not approve of his Christianity. He cannot face up to the fact that the Jews consider his god a mere idol and profane. “The fool rages and is confident.”
Bald faced lie! What I mean is people in glass houses should not throw bricks so readily.
Yamit82 condemns Christianity as if every Christian by birth were guilty. I merely pointed out that Jews also have committed crimes and he should not be ascribing blood guilt to Christian to make us pay.
I merely suggested that since Israel would prosper by it, Israel should pay to relocate the Arabs. Yamit82 suggested blood guilt.
I merely noted that no one is innocent.
Another lie, which labels you.
“Your problem is not with the Arabs. They are only a symptom of a deeper problem with your psyche, yamit82. Suffice to say, the Arabs are not the real focus of your hatred.”
Don’t take the bait, Yamit. The Good Doctor is just begging Dweller to step in here because he knows he cannot hold his own with you. Also, he poses Arab anti-Jewish hatred in kicking out Jews and stealing their possessions as though it is not dissimilar to Israel’s right to reject the idea of a Palestinian state ruled by a terrorist entity whose very constitution calls for the liquidation of Israel’s Jews and the very idea of a Jewish presence in the Middle East.
“No one is innocent.” “Genocide has been tried on other groups, often more successfully.”
What the Good Doctor means here is that every Jewish man, women and child is guilty of some horrific crime, even at birth, and therefore have no historical claim to the land of Israel, and he feels rather perlexed that Hitler was not efficient as was needed to totally exterminate the Jewish people (apparently there were better “liquidators” than the Einsatzgruppen). Jews deserve the Nazi genocide because they helped the Muslims conquer the Christians of Spain way back when. This guy is a whack-job.
As you, yourself, have admitted the shoe was on the other foot many, many times.
It was Jewish residents who help the Muslim tyrants take over Spain in 711 AD, when they agreed to garrison cities for the Muslim invaders against the Christians.
Without that garrisoning help, Spain could never have been conquered by the Moors.
There was the Jewish Yemeni King Yusuf As’ar who persecuted Christians which so eviscerated Christianity that soon after Islam arose.
Your yourself admitted the pool of Mamilla massacres of Christians. This weakened the Byzantines and made Islam possible.
Apparently, it is politically incorrect to bring that matter up.
When I brought up the names of some 20th century Jewish bureaucratic tyrants who oversaw the murders of millions of Christians you went ballistic. How dare I speak the truth? When I linked to Jewish sources who admitted it … you went nuts.
The ugly truth is that no side is innocent.
NO ONE IS INNOCENT.
I do not deny Hitler’s crimes. They were terrible. I am NOT a Holocaust denier.
I deny that they were unique, though.
Genocide has been tried on other groups, often more successfully. For example: How many Christians are left in Yemen?!
Your problem is not with the Arabs. They are only a symptom of a deeper problem with your psyche, yamit82. Suffice to say, the Arabs are not the real focus of your hatred.
I could go deeper, but Ted would get upset.
This is what it comes down to.
You problem is not with the Arab as much as it is with Christ, the Jewish Moshiach.
Well, you do not believe it, but one day you will have to deal with him.
I will not say more on that issue or Ted will get upset.
But this is the source of your hatred.
I am shocked. I had you pegged for a PEACE NOW liberal.
NO! Israel did not give up land. It still expanded settlements. Maybe rightly, but it was assymetric to both sides.
Which a lot of them did initially … but as the settlements expanded …. (I thought Israel was giving up land?), as Arab houses were demolished, as Arab permits were denied, etc.
The Arabs got upset. It does not take much to upset an Arab.
Settler groups were determined to sabotage Oslo, which they did. Maybe wisely, but it was still deception.
A) Israel agreed to make no unilateral moves which would change the final outcome
B) Israel built settlements which are unilateral moves which affect the final outcome
C) Israel broke OSLO as much as the Arabs from Day 1
I am not saying Israel should have kept OSLO. I am just saying the did NOT keep Oslo.
OSLO was dishonest because neither side would, should, or would have made the concessions needed for OSLO to work.
One of the simplest, most basic rights of an Independent state is a free border. Israel was NEVER going to allow a Palestinian entity to have an open border with Jordan. It would have been dangerous.
A) Israel could never have granted the PA Independence
B) The PA could never have accepted less.
You see this as an excuse for ethnic cleansing and take joy in it.
I see this as a human tragedy.
Enfranchisement of the assimilable and payment to move to South America for the rest is the only solution.
Other than giving you the opportunity to kill more Arabs, which you would prefer.
These states are absolutely independent. Mussollini did not intervene in these EVEN during the Second World War.
Israel was NOT willing to make that concession.
OSLO was a bad deal for both sides.
1) For the Jews: It set up a Palestinian Authority. It held out an implied promise of a statelet that Israel would not, should not, and could not have accepted. When this was NOT delivered, violence re-asserted itself.
2) For the Arabs: It did not stop settlements. It still allowed Israel powers of intervention. All phone traffic has to be routed through Israel. Every phone call is monitored.
One general said it: “The minimum the Arabs would accept is more than Israel could give.”
Oslo was a disaster. It was a charade. Israel – maybe wisely – held all the cards, and only offerred a veneer of change.
Even Barak’s solution of 2000 left Palestine broken up into Statelets.
No Israeli leader would ever, ever give up the right of Jews to Judea and Samaria.
No Palestinian Leader would ever, ever give up the right of return.
OSLO was dishonest from Day 1.
What distinguishes me here from the general opinion is this:
Even though I disagree with Islam, and disagree with Arab culture in general,
I have pity for some of these people who were ethnically cleansed in 1948 and, some, later in 1967, and afterwards with Israeli evictions.
Some of these people have been evicted more than twice.
While the official story is that they fled voluntarily – and about half did – the other half was ethnically cleansed.
Instructive is the story of Maronite Christians in Israel who were ethnically cleansed from their town even though
1) The Maronite Patriarch supported Israel. They welcomed the Jews in 1937 and 1946.
2) Many Maronites helped help the Jews
3) Some Maronites even serve in the IDF
Yet, Israel’s Maronites were internally displaced. NOT voluntarilty.
If Israel did this to their Maronite friends, it is obvious that a lot of ethnic cleansing did occur.
There is a common view here on Israpundit: Get rid of all the Goyim.
Not all on Israpundit hold that view, but there is a real anti-goy opinion here.
I see this as a human tragedy in slow motion.
I do not deny Israel; but the lives of the Arabs has to be horrific in the West Bank.
Begin, Shamir did not long tolerate British rule, and they called it Nazi-like. Yet, these same Mandate laws are now applied to the Arab.
Oslo was bad for both sides.
There is no happy solution.
But what distinguishes me is that I can appreciate the Arab point of view, even if I generally support Israel. I do not dismiss their complaints and call for blood, guts, and explusion.
@ CuriousAmerican:
I would see 1.5million diaper heads ethnically cleansed by moving them 10-20 miles eastward rather than see a single Jew ethnically cleansed .
Oslo and the Road Map agreements were materially asymmetric. Israel was to give up tangible assets (Land and sovereignty) Arabs pledged to cease violence against Israel, recognize Israels existence, cease incitement and educating without hatred towards Israel and the Jews.
None of their obligations were met not for a Day or a Minuit of any Day have they kept their side of the agreement and not for a single second.
In such agreements it’s logical that the party giving up material assets waits to see the compliance of the other party first. So your Bullshit analysis don’t cut it bub. We are agreed that the Arabs must go. You want the Jewish suckers to pay and I say No. you Christians have to pay because you owe us.
Just a few examples: “Many times Jews have been expelled: in 632 King Dagobert expelled all Jews from France; in 1012 Henry II of Germany expelled all Jews from Mainz; in 1121 Jews were driven out of Belgium until they repented of killing Christ; in 1182 King Philip of France expelled the Jews and turned synagogues into churches; in 1290 King Edward I banished Jews from England, forcing 16,000 to leave; in 1306 Philip the Tall expelled 100,000 Jews from France, which was officially without a Jewish population, Jews have been expelled from virtually every country in which they have resided. Jews were expelled from France in 1306 and 1394, Hungary in 1349 and 1360, Austria in 1421, from various places in Germany throughout the 14th, 15th and 16th centuries, from Lithuania in 1445 and 1495, Spain in 1492, Portugal in 1497, and from Bohemia and Moravia in 1744-45. Between the 15th and 18th centuries, Jews were not permitted to enter Russia, and when they were finally admitted, they were restricted to one area, the Pale of Settlement and this is only a small partial list.
No Christian I think you should pay and no price should be too high. Worst case take the half billion the Christians spend for converting the Jews to paying off the Arabs. It’s not only Israel that gains it’s you missionaries once you get the diaper heads ensconced in Christian lands. That’s what you are really after, so don’t be a miser pass the collection plate around to all your christian buddies and when you have enough go for it.
My comment is awaiting moderation.
It is about the callousness with which this govt treats and expels settlers, how the IDF is abandoning certain areas, leaving Jews vulnerable to Arab terror. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/12667
FUNNY WAY OF OPPOSING THE PALESTINIAN STATE
VOTE LIKUD? This govt does not even want to deal with tens of thousands of foreign criminals roaming the streets.
Mass protest organized by Strong Israel party (Aryeh Eldad, Michael Ben Ari) against infiltrators in the aftermath of the rape of an 80 year old woman by an African illegal.
Basically what was offered was state like the Vatican or San Marcos, provided the Palestinians agree to:
1. recognize the Jewish State of Israel,
2. be demilitarized
3. Jewish Jerusalem ,
4. forget Palestinian Arabs moving to the rest of Israel.
Then we could discuss borders outside the settlement blocks. They did not agree they said they would never agree. So no Palestinian Entity without the Israeli Army in it when and where the IDF needs to be.
The same offer should be extended outside of Area C in Judea and Samaria. Israeli Law should be applied in Area C and be annexed.
@ CuriousAmerican:
🙂
Dd you call me, american?
When I told people that Israel had no intention of granting independence to a Palestinian state; I was falsely slandered for accusing Jews. Actually I was right. Israel was holding out against world opinion. Oslo was a delaying tactic of sorts.
That being said:
I am NOT saying OSLO was wise.
I am NOT saying OSLO should have been signed.
I am ONLY saying that Israel had NO intention of obeying OSLO ever.
Israel was holding out the promise with the right hand, while taking actions with the left hand which would provoke the Arabs to violence – and frankly Arabs do not need much provocation – and then Israel could say … “We tried.”
This is not even criticism. This is observation.
Israel had no intention of ever giving independence to a Palestinians state.
I am not wrong – I WAS not wrong – to point this out.
Had Israel been really interested in OSLO, then Israel would never have built or expanded the settlements.
Oslo prevented unilateral actions which will affect the final outcome. Settlements were unilateral actions which will affect the final outcome. There is NO WAY they could be negotiated back.
You may criticize Abbas for going to the UN, but his violation of OSLO was in response to the settlements which, if we were all honest, also constitute a violation of OSLO.
I am NOT saying Israel is wrong.
I am saying that Israel never had any intention of obeying OSLO.
The Arabs – especially Ismail Haniya’s Gazan Hamas – never had any intention of obeying OSLO either.
OSLO was a farce.
Neither side obeyed it.
It is wrong however to blame Abbas for breaking it along. Both sides violated it.
That is all I am saying.
I am not saying Israel was wrong to violate OSLO; though Israel may have been wrong not to be honest about it.
In the end, Israel has given the Arabs of Judea and Samaria a false hope; a hope which they see whittled away with every settlement. There were 2-3 million Arabs under Israeli martial law. This is not a stable situation. This is a provocation to violence.
No one likes to be under martial law. Didn’t Begin and Shamir resist British martial law?
Maybe this hope of OSLO should never have been offerred in the first place. Of course, OSLO did purchase some early years of relative peace until the Arabs saw settlement expansion.
Maybe Bush and Clinton should not have pressured Israel into OSLO.
But, in that case, there still would have been left 2-3 million Arabs in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza.
That is the rub.
Most on this chat board advocate ethnic cleansing to deal with them.
I do not.
May I suggest that Israel handled the OSLO under duress, handled it badly, and should not have signed it. Having signed it, Israel only pretended to abide by OSLO.
My Solution to the Arabs is to assimilate the assimilable, and for Israel to pay the others to move to South America.
Since the Jewish state would prosper, the Jewish state should be the primary payer.
I know most here would prefer ethnic cleansing, but will howl if I use the term.
DESPERATE STATEMENTS AND DEEPLY DISRESPECTFUL OF ISRAELI VOTERS.
Such explanation – it was only a ‘tactical’ move, Judge, I really didn’t mean it – would not stand in court.
Hotovely’s statement itself is ‘a tactical move’ aimed at deceiving the fed-up Likud voters into voting for Two-States-Likud one more time.
Why doesn’t Bibi himself retract not only his Two-States endorsement – but all other policies aimed at empowering an independent Nazi Arab Palestine on Jewish land?
File news item under DISGUSTING or INSULTING. or UNBELIEVABLE!