By Ted Belman
Jordan is Palestine is a movement that has been around time and attracts substantial support.
The Elon Peace Initiative is founded on this idea. In it, Jordan replaces P.A., the refugee camps are closed, and Jordanian citizenship is given to the Arabs of Judea and Samaria.
Lieberman just said ‘Jordan as Palestinian state’ discussion harms Israeli interests.
Here’s why.
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Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman warned Monday against pushing for a Palestinian state inside Jordan, saying such claims harm Israel’s security interests.
“Jordan is a stabilizing element in the region, in comparison to what is happening in other nations,” Lieberman said during a discussion at the Knesset’s Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee, responding to recent reports that sources in the government are again mulling the idea of a Palestinian state in Jordan.
“Discussion about Jordan as a Palestinian state is against Israeli interests and against reality,” Lieberman continued. “Saying Jordan is Palestine opposes international borders as well as the peace accord we signed with them.”
He said such claims harms Israel’s security interests because a Palestinian state on both sides of the Jordan River will be “militant and extreme” and will undermine the region’s stability.
For how long?
A “demilitarized state” is kind of like pure oxygen — inherently unstable in nature. Release the O-2 from the canister and into the air (or the water, the ground, etc), and right away it starts joining itself to whatever it can. (Think of it as a virgin in the lab — a slut on the street.)
Modern history provides only one instance of a “demilitarized state”
— post WWI Germany.
That worked out just dandy.
http://www.rosenblit.com/CHOSEN.htm
You miss the point. The Jews as G-d’s Chosen explains what I wrote above. The very beginning of the Hebrew Bible, G-d created the first human being, Adam, “b’Tzelem Elohim” — “in The Image of G-d” (Gen. 1:27). Thus, each descendant of Adam — that is, every human being — is deemed to have been individually chosen to bear The Image of G-d. In this way, every righteous person — Jew or Gentile — is exactly the same in his or her individual relationship with the G-d of Israel, even if such person has accepted false religious doctrine. The Talmud, expresses this egalitarian concept by declaring: “The Righteous of all nations have a share in the World To Come.” (Tosefta, Sanhedrin 13). The Mishna, the earliest foundation of the Talmud completed some 1,800 years ago, declares, regarding the purpose of G-d in having created only one Adam: “Therefore only a single man was created to teach you that if anyone destroys a single soul from the Children of Man, Scripture charges him as though he had destroyed a whole World, and whoever rescues a single soul from the Children of Man, Scripture credits him as though he had saved a whole World. And [only a single man was created] for the sake of Peace among Humanity — that no man might say to his fellow, ‘My ancestor was greater than your ancestor’ …” (Sanhedrin 4:5).
Yet — despite the reality that some number of individual Jews are, in fact, evildoers — the Jews are nonetheless G-d’s Chosen People in their collective relationship with G-d. Accordingly, G-d has said of and to the Jewish people: “… So said HaShem: My first-born Son is Israel.” (Ex. 4:22); and: “… My Legions — My People — the Children of Israel …” (Ex. 7:4); and: “For you are a holy people to HaShem, your G-d; HaShem, your G-d, has chosen you to be for Him a treasured people above all peoples that are on the face of the Earth. Not because you are more numerous than all the peoples did HaShem desire you and choose you, for you are the fewest of all the peoples. Rather, because of HaShem’s love for you and because He observes the oath that He swore to your forefathers did He take you out with a strong hand and redeem you from the house of slavery — from the hand of Pharaoh, king of Egypt.” (Deut. 7:6-8); and: “For you are a holy people to HaShem, your G-d, and HaShem has chosen you for Himself to be a treasured people from among all the peoples on the face of the Earth.” (Deut. 14:2); and: “And HaShem has distinguished you today to be for Him a treasured people, as He spoke to you, and to observe all His Commandments, and to make you supreme over all the nations that He made, for praise, for renown, and for splendor, and so that you will be a holy people to HaShem, your G-d, as He spoke.” (Deut. 26:18-19). Even the evangelist Paul conceded as much in his epistle to the gentile peoples of the Roman Empire: “As far as the Gospel is concerned, they [the Jews] are enemies on your account; but as far as Choice is concerned, they [the Jews] are beloved on account of the [Hebrew] Patriarchs. For, G-d’s Gifts and His Calling are irrevocable.” (Romans 11:28-29)
Nonetheless, Chosenness ought not be confused with Righteousness; for, as Moses warned the Jewish people prior to their entry into the Land of Israel: “Do not say in your heart, when HaShem pushes them away from before you, saying, ‘Because of my righteousness does HaShem bring me to possess this Land’; for, because of the wickedness of these nations does HaShem drive them away from before you. Not because of your righteousness and the uprightness of your heart are you coming to possess their Land, but because of the wickedness of these nations does HaShem, your G-d, drive them away from before you, and in order to establish the Word that HaShem swore to your forefathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob. And you should know that not because of your righteousness does HaShem, your G-d, give you this good Land to possess it; for, you are a stiff-necked people.” (Deut. 9:4-6). Consequently, the Jewish people’s collective status as the Chosen People is a more than three millennia old work-in-progress.
Moreover, being collectively chosen does not mean that any particular Jew is more beloved of G-d than any particular Gentile, as that Judgment is made by G-d based upon each person’s individual moral worth. The Hebrew Bible itself is proof of this, as it abounds with tales of worthy Gentiles — from Adam and Eve to Noah to the Amorite brothers Mamre, Aner and Eshcol to Malchizedek to Job to Jethro to Rahab to Ruth (the last of whom, by joining herself to the Jewish people, became the ancestress of King David as well as of the future Messiah).
Rather, being collectively chosen means that G-d’s Plan for Humanity will be made manifest and will be implemented through the Jewish people — both the righteous ones and the evil ones.
Certainly the progenitor of Christianity agreed with the foregoing, as is demonstrated by the following exchange between him and a gentile follower: “The woman said to him, ‘Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain; and you say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.’ Jesus said to her, ‘Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for Salvation is from the Jews.'” (John 4:19-22)
However, being collectively chosen also means that, collectively, the gentile nations will eventually suffer G-d’s Wrath when they join together to oppress the Jewish nation (see Gen. 12:3; Num. 24:8-9; Deut. 32:43; Isaiah 59:17-19; Zech. 14:2-13; and Ezek. 38:3 – 39:6).
By the way, Yamit, a little corollary:
Perhaps this is coincidence, but I suspect not: The American flag is red, white, and blue: Valor, Purity and covenant with God. No purple (royalty) nor gold (riches — for when we were founded, we were poor). I don’t know whether those were the virtues intended by the flag’s designers, but there you have it. Of course, the British have the same colors, as well as the Dutch and French, the Aussies, the Panamanians and other copycats. For the record, I believe the Dutch used those colors first. As I said, it could be coincidence.
The Israeli colors are blue and white — taken, or course, from a prayer shawl; and I believe the blue in the shawl was to signify the tchelet in the tsitsit (because at the time of the Zionist movement and Herzl, the Ashkenazi Jews did not use a blue or tchelet thread in their tsitsit). The significance, to me, is that these are the two things God required for the re-establishing of the State of Israel: A connection with God and the covenants, on the one hand; and on the other, purity of heart. No valor required, nor riches; because God intended to supply these in abundance.
Well Yamit. We can learn from history, that does not mean that God keeps holding us accountable for passed transgressions. Considering that it has been less than 70 years since the horrific holocaust of our people I think you should lighten up. I don’t believe that God judges us as harshly as you do. That’s oppressive. We have enough REAL enemies to oppress us – why should you fall right into their hands? Or perhaps I am just an exception to the rule? I hope not. It’s lonely at the top!
Read the scripture again, Yam. The Jews really blew it at one point, and as a result of this, God commanded them to wear tsitsit (a “string on your finger”, for an equivalent modern metaphor) to remind themselves to keep the commandments. It says this explicitly in the Bible. The blue thread was to remind them of heaven (It also says this explicitly), inferring that except for the blue thread, they would forget that it and God existed.
No royalty in all this. As a relatively unimportant sideline, purple represented royalty; red represented valor and gold represented splendor. In the Book of Revelation, these were the colors of “Babylon, Mother of Harlots and Abominations”, the figurative woman who sat on seven hills (i.e., Rome) — a reference to the Papacy (and its descendants are the churches of today). She is clothed in all the colors of the Cohen haGadol’s robes, EXCEPT BLUE, which represented a connection with God. The High Priest had a connection with God, through the covenants; the churches do not.
So much for “blue”.
I disagree with Rashi. God does not desecrate His own name; and the Jewish people certainly didn’t choose to be defeated and go into exile.
In my opinion, the Jewish people are too intellectual and introspective for their own good. The Jews offended God, and He punished them as promised. This glorifies God, in that it makes Him an upholder of His own word. With the creation of the State of Israel, God began the process of returning His people to their land. This also glorifies God. The whole world has opposed this project, yet the world can’t stop it. This also glorifies God.
None of the above requires any intelect or introspection; and the above is the important part. God created us all so that we might become His companions and know Him; and the aim of all the above is that the world might take notice and come to know the God of Israel, who is the King of the Universe. This is between God and the goiim. The Jews have a role, but it’s much like the role of the corpse at an Irish wake: It’s an important part of the festivities, and indeed, it’s the reason for everyone getting together; but it doesn’t really take part in the celebration.
The Jews, of course, have their own sub-plot in all this; but I think it’s all above their ken — and certainly above mine. God is glorifying His name in them and through them, and has been for thousands of years. That, in itself, ought to gladden the Jewish heart.
Are the Jews guilty of something? Are they forgiven? Rashi and the others seem to have been pulling out their hair over this for thousands of years. If God were keeping a scorecard on the Jews, I suppose this would be an important matter. But if the Jews lost the game 2000 years ago, and God has thrown out the result, then why fret? Acknowledge what has happened, and seek now to serve your God with thankfulness, with all your hearts. Rejoice in His mercy, and call it mercy; and live accordingly. If you don’t (as a people), you will simply go mad; and perhaps Israel already has gone mad. Still, don’t fret: God loves you sane, mad, convicted or forgiven.
Meanwhile, God has a thing or two to say to the nations, perhaps beginning with Iran. Their mouths have been too open, and their ears too closed. The Almighty will correct that.
What is Jordan in relation to Israel?
Jordan is what the relevant FILE/FOLDER of the League of Nations titled/called *Trans-Jordan Province of Palestine*!
But Palestine in history is the geopolitical entity to which the Roman occupier of “Judea and Israel” two Jewish Kingdoms in the second century CE gave the name “Palestina” in a futile attempt to eradicate the Jews’ link to their Land, which entered history as the Sovereign Homeland of the “Jewish nation” more than 3000 years ago.
Since that time, Jews have continuously lived there, though often under foreign conquerors. In fact for over 3000 years ago… the one common demographic denominator in “Palestina” has been the Jews. Concurrently, no ethnic or national community except the Jews has claimed Palestine/Israel as its distinctive home. Even Sherif Hussein of Mecca called this Land *Ard Ibna’a Ihal aslyin* = *The land of the original owners.* Ref. to Jews.
Until the early twentieth century, Palestine was considered a geographic concept, covering the area both West and East of the Jordan River; the term “Palestinian” must therefore refer to all the inhabitants of this area. And the “Right of Self Determination for the Palestinian Arabs” is a right to which Palestinian JEWS as well as Palestinian ARABS are entitled-and which both, in fact, have attained.
In 1922, recognizing THE HISTORICAL CONNECTION OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE WITH PALESTINE and the grounds for RECONSTITUTING their National Home in that SAME country. The League of Nations granted Britain a Mandate over Palestine, pending the reconstitution in Palestine of the JEWISH NATIONAL HOME.
One of Britain’s first act as a Mandatory Power was to divide Palestine along the river Jordan, giving over 77% of it, to an upstart from ARABIA, by the name of Emir Abdullah who, 1946, established Trans-Jordan-later renamed Transjordan and even later Jordan. (King Abdullah originally had wanted to call his country “Palestine” but was persuaded by the British that the name “Jordan” would emphasize the King’s rule over both banks of that river (Jordan). Thus in the greater part of Palestine-the area East of the River Jordan-the right of Palestinian Arabs to self-determination was realized (and this was considered the FIRST PARTITION OF PALESTINE).
Yet the Jews’ concomitant right to self-determination in the remaining 23 % of Palestine was not to be granted so readily. Arab militants, through terror and intimidation, opposed the fulfillment of Jewish national aspirations in any parts of Palestine whatsoever.
In 1947 the United Nations sought to settle the conflict by a SECOND DIVISION (this time of Western Palestine) into Jewish and Arab States. In May 1948 Jewish Palestine (Israel) proclaimed its independence. The neighboring Arab States, however, joined in a massive assault on Israel. Though Israel succeeded in repulsing the invasion, Judea and Samaria were captured, and later annexed, by Jordan; only Britain and Pakistan recognized this illegal annexation (yet, NO Arab Country extended their recognition). Egypt also conquered the Gaza district (though not annexed it).
Since mid-1948, then, two independent sovereign states have existed in the AREA once known as “Palestine”: the Arab-Palestinian State of Jordan (77% of the Mandate) in Eastern Palestine, and the Jewish-Palestinian State of Israel (23% of the Mandate), in Western Palestine. For this very reason another Arab Palestinian State was not established in Western Palestine (the so-called “West Bank”, i.e., Judea and Samaria) during the 19 years it was controlled by Jordan. It made no sense then; it makes no sense now…!
All non-Jewish inhabitants in the area conquered by the British led army of King Abdullah were granted JORDANIAN CITIZENSHIP. Over 400,000 Palestinian Arabs from Western Palestine moved East of the Jordan River Eastern Palestine-mainly to be closer to Amman, the new Jordan capital, and the improved social and economic opportunities offered there. Ethnic, social, religious and identical language made these migrations merely a “change of address.” As one writer put it.
Today, Jordan’s population-even without the western area it had conquered in its abortive attack on Israel in 1967-is still composed in its majority [73%] of Arabs of Palestinian origin. As Jordan’s late King Hussein said in an interview for the Paris-based An-Nahar al-Arabi w’al-Daouli, on 26 December 1981, “Truth is that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan.”
A change of scenery in Jordan [this artificial state] would automatically bring the largest Palestinian (Fundamentalist Party, the only party that represents 73% of Jordan’s population) in the picture. A Palestinian Arab leader replacing the present King Abdullah son of the late king Hussein might revert to “Palestine” instead of Jordan.
I have in my possession two Jordanian State Stamps one from 1964, bearing the likeness of the late King Hussein and pictures Mandated Palestine as an undivided territory [All of Israel of today plus Jordan of today]…, the other a 1949 stamp pictures King Abdullah (the grand father of late king Hussein) of the kingdom of Jordan and bears the label of Palestine in English and Arabic.
If Jordan (ex Trans-Jordan) IS NOT Palestine, what then, was its previous name? One of the answers is in the “Palestinian National Covenant”
ART 2 : Palestine with its boundaries that existed at the time of the British Mandate is an integral regional unit.
ART 25 ; In the territories lying between the Jordan and the eastern boundary of Palestine as ultimately determined, the Mandatory shall be entitled, with the consent of the Council of the League of Nations, to postpone or withhold application of such provisions of this mandate as he may consider inapplicable to the existing local conditions, and to make such provision for the administration of the territories as he may consider suitable to those conditions, provided that no action shall be taken which is inconsistent with the provision of Articles 15, 16 and 18.
After Jordan Independence May 25, 1946, the word PALESTINE was used on all official documents i.e. (I mentioned the stamp bearing Abdullah’s picture and the label Palestine). King Abdullah wanted to call his newly acquired country the kingdom of Palestine, but the British persuaded him to drop the idea. He had also mentioned in the past : “He (God) granted me success in creating the Government of Transjordan by having it separated from the Balfour Declaration.”
The Raison d’être of Jordan has been clarified as the creation of a Palestinian order on the East Bank of the river Jordan. Initially an artificial country, established by British Imperial Decree, with unclear boundaries and no national identity, Jordan has taken major strides in trying to build a new collective that might be termed “Jordanian-Palestinian”. It is a state in search of a nation to fill it with content and purpose; nation building is proving, however, to be more arduous task now that the national Palestinian identity, authentic as it might be, has been kindled.
The Palestinian entity of Jordan has not eliminated its ambitions to contest Hashemite control over this sizable part of Mandated Palestine. In essence, the real Palestinian Arab-Jordanian contest is over the East-Bank and not the West Bank of the Jordan River. The eastern portion of Palestine (Jordan), for objective reasons, is the big prize to be attained.
Living in their own social and cultural milieu in the Eastern part of Mandated Palestine, and enjoying full political, economic and social rights, the Palestinian Arabs have already achieved all the elements of national self- determination and fulfillment. They constitute a majority within an established political entity, which happens to be situated on over 77% of the original territory of Historic Palestine.
Israel controls today only 23% of that territory. Jordan is, therefore, the answer to the “Palestinian problem” since its population is nearly 73% of Palestinian stock. I then conclude that Jordan can be designated as either the “Palestine-Jordan Hashemite Kingdom,” or the “Republic of Palestine.”
Historic Palestine has been already unevenly partitioned, and Jordan has come out with the Lion share!
The non-Israeli Arabs of Palestine should be REPATRIATED to their country (since they are ALL holders of Jordanian Ids and passports from the time Jordan ruled the West Bank for 19 years).
Jordan and Israel are now considered (after their Peace agreement) the two SUCCESSORS of the Palestine Mandate!
{He said such claims harms Israel’s security interests because a Palestinian state on both sides of the Jordan River will be “militant and extreme” and will undermine the region’s stability. ]I disagree. I think removal of the Palestinians would end the conflict over the west bank. However the Palestiansare in Samaria and Judea with the express purpose of grinding Israel down to a weakened state so that they can be defeated and pushed out all together. It seems that no peace agreement would be acceptable to the Palestinians since any settlement would terminate this “grinding” effect. This means that a decisive military operation on the part of Israel resulting in the dismantling of Hamas,Fatah and Hezbollah thereby removing the credibility of their message{enough violence for long enough will bleed Israel into submission).is the only thing that would give any hope to any kind of peace agreement.”VIOLENCE GIVES YOU NOTHING” is the message that has to be sent to the Palestinians.
Oh really? what do you base such an opinion on?
The Exile is the personification of Jewish weakness, defeat, flight, persecution, torture, humiliation, genocide, holocaust, degradation. And because of this, it must – in the eyes of the gentiles – personify the weakness, so to speak, of the G-d of the Jews. To the enemy of the Jew, Jewish defeat is proof of the inability of the G-d of Israel to give His people strength and triumph and glory. Such a G-d is either impotent or non-existent…
“Not for our sake, not for our sake but unto Thy Name give glory… Why shall the nations say: ‘Where is G-d?’” (Psalms 115)
“Oh L-rd, what shall I say, after Israel hath turned their backs before their enemies… and what wilt Thou do for Thy great Name?” (Joshua 7)
“Israel’s degradation is the desecration of the Name of the L-rd.” (The Biblical commentator Rashi, Ezekiel 39:7)
The Jews were chosen to be G-ds emissaries ( he calls us his workers ) Through the Jews G-d manifests himself and his purpose for mankind.
Jews are commanded to be proud. The blue thread in tassels, which every Jew must attach to fringes of his coat, is a symbol of royalty. Only the upper classes wore blue clothes in antiquity, leading the Romans to eventually monopolize the trade in blue pigment. The entire Jewish people were commanded to behave as a royal nation.
If the opposite of proud is humble then we can say that we are also proof that humbleness leads to gas chambers.
Anywhere doesn’t want them either.
I trust by now the world knows the Palestinians are not interested in peace, only the destruction of Israel.
The phony government leaders who claim they support a Palestinian statehood could care less about the Palestinians, their objectives are no different than the Palestinians.
Likewise……God can be proud of the Jews…..maybe not all, but I think more than we give credit to!!!
So, does that mean no Palestinian state anywhere??
Proud people generally end up getting smacked in the kisser. It would suffice, if the Jews were less proud of themselves and more proud of their God.
Yamit is correct.
A majority of American Jews I feel fall into the group seeking approval.
Time for these so called Jews to start being proud.
Besides if you don’t understand why you should be proud you are not Jewish.
In addition if you are Jewish, no matter where you reside you are connected to Israel by heritage, faith and by G-d.
You are for once right and why spoil it by adding to it.
The Jordanian monarchy won’t last long. The Palestinian majority will take over that desert state, and unable to create a viable economy there, they will turn to nationalism and militancy. Jordan will become a huge Gaza, rife with terrorist training camps.
Jordanians will extend their influence to those Arabs whom Israel failed to expel in violation of the commandment, and they will become “a trap for you,” “a sore in your eye,” and “masters over you.”
In order to establish security, Israel would have no choice but to extend toward the Euphrates, pushing out and relocating the hostile Arabs to Iraq. As if prompting Israel to fulfill the commandment, the strong and militant state of Iraq under Saddam was invaded for no reason and destroyed.
Without a strong government such as that under Saddam and the likely hood of civil war in what was once Iraq, the way is now opening For Israel to rid itself of all Arabs, first into the Pali State of Jordan and later in reprisal for attacks we drive them into Iraq up to the Euphrates, thereby fulfilling the biblical command and the regaining of our true promised biblical borders. One step at a time.
“To your descendants I have given this land, from the Egyptian River as far as the great river, the Euphrates.”
Bereshit (Genesis) 15:18
For millennium, Jews had the guts to stand against world opinion and isolate ourselves from the world rather than seeking its approval. Jews can only win this approval in two ways: by dying out—whether physically or through assimilation—or by being strong, different from others, and proud of it. Gentiles recognize and instinctively detest assimilationist mimicry, a cheap trick that attempts to fool them. Jews shouldn’t care how we look to the world. We should behave as proud Jews in all things and respect will come from the gentiles. If not who cares, not me.
“For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those that shall escape.”
Yoel 3:5 and Ovadia 1:17.
Perhaps Lieberman is not aware that many Palestinian Arabs advocate having the “Palestinian State” in Jordan, and those who want will continue to live in Greater Israel including Judea and Samaria, but will be citizens of Jordan. According to some of these, this new Jordan will be demilitarized!
In such case Lieberman would – according to this – be satisfied.
Lieberman’s take makes good sense, except that he premises his point on the assumption that
Lieberman assumes 2 things in this statement:
1. If Jordan came to be considered a Palestinian state, Palestinians there and who might move there, would immediately get rid of the current relatively stable monarchy and government and install a terrorist Islamist Jew/Israel hating government that we have been accustomed to seeing in Hamas and the Arafat/Abbas government;
2. That even with Jordan declared as THE PALESTINIAN STATE, that Palestinians would also retain J & S and Gaza as part of that state.
Neither assumption is credible without more.
Nonetheless, if Israel now did seek to change the map and political reality to declare Jordan as the State of Palestine, that alone would be harmful to Israel’s already difficult circumstances on the world stage and likely would also bring America and the rest of the West down on her head.
If such position is ever to be taken, it must be incrementally approached in hardly noticeable steps until Israel would be positioned to ultimately take that position.
So, while not agreeing in part or in whole with Lieberman’s assumptions and conclusions, I agree with his statement that all things remaining equal, for Israel to suddenly take such position would definitely be harmful to Israel’s best interests.
Lieberman used the word “element”, because it would be something of a sham to call it a “country”. Jordan was carved out of the League of Nations Mandate of Palestine. It was intended to be part of a Jewish Homeland which Great Britain, according to its mandate, was charged with bringing about.
Then the Saudis kicked the Hashemites out of Hejaz, and the Brits refused to help their old allies there. Instead, they gave Jordan to the Hashemites, an Arab noble house tracing its roots to Mohammed’s family. They also gave Iraq to the Jordanian king’s brother, but his heir died in the orgiastic revolution there in 1958.
The Brits therefore stole land intended for the Jews, to give it to a Bedouin royal family. Oh, by the way — there were PEOPLE in Jordan. I suppose they ought to be called “Palestinians”, since this was part of a mandate of that name, so named after another people called “Philistines”, who were neither Arabs nor Moslems (The inhabitants of Jordan are Arab Moslems). People, yes… Where was I?
Ethnically, the majority of Jordanians are Levantine Arabs — Sunni Moslems. They speak a dialect similar to that of the Syrians, and form a “people” with the UNWRA Arabs of Gaza, the PLO Arabs of Judea and Samaria, most of the Israeli Arabs in Jerusalem and the North, a small fraction of the Lebanese, a majority of the Syrians and a minority of the Iraqis. In bygone days, when they were subjects of the Turks for 300 years, they may have been called “Syrians”. If one were to create a state for them, I suppose it would have its capital in Damascus…
…but then, there never was a state for these people, and there never will be. They have always been ruled by others: Ottoman Turks, Circasian Mamelukes, Berber Fatimids, Kurdish Ayyubids, Seljuk Turks, Abbasid and Umayyad Arabians, Byzantine Greeks, Persians, Romans, Seleucid and Ptolemaid Greeks, Jews, Babylonians, Assyrians, Egyptians, Canaanites…
At one time, long, long ago, Jordan was the land of the Ammonites and Moabites. Under the Jewish Maccabee dynasty, they were forcibly converted to Judaism. In other words, their descendants are Jews. They were exiled by the Romans, and replaced by nomadic Arabs. A kingdom called Palmyra ruled there briefly from modern-day Syria, before the Romans subjugated them. They weren’t Moslems, but who’s keeping score? Instead of a “Palestine” in Jordan or Israel, perhaps they should call their country “Palmyra”, with a capital in Damascus… or perhaps they could simply call themselves “Greater Syria” — an ironic name, seeing that “Mother Syria” is about to be dismembered and occupied once more by the Turks.
Jordan? Not a country, past, present nor future: an “element”. Now you see it, now you don’t.