T. Belman. The rules based order touted by the collective west is anything but. Lavrov is right to point this out and in particular the repeated violations of the UN Charter by the west. He also mentions the right of peoples to self determination, which, in the case of the ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine, is ignored.
I drew attention to the same things in:
Can the UN impose a solution on Israel?
The UN acts in violation of International Law while claiming to uphold it
“The UN Charter is a war document, not a peace document.”
Annexation and International Law
Ukraine: The right of self-determination supersedes sovereign inviolability
CLICK ON THE PICTURE TO SEE THE VIDEO.
He also spoke to the General Assembly here.
Peloni,
I don’t know if I’ve ever seen gaslighting like what pours out of your posts. To be fair, Felix out does you and Biden outdoes him.
First of all, Vlad Putin is NOT a “Nazi fighter”. He is a war criminal, who can’t even travel in the civilized world because of his indichtment.
Second, You’ve really gone over the top, accusing me of supporting the tyrants in DC. Franky, I don’t think you have any idea what you’re saying, when you go on these rants.
Listen to Trump’s speech, at 23:22
https://rumble.com/v3kqjr2-live-trump.html
He speaks of Russia killing MILLIONS of people in the Ukrainian cities. I think his figure is on the high side; but he puts to a lie all the BS you and Ted have been shlepping around here about “Gentle Putin”. The man is a villain; you can mark my words. I have no illusions about that. The only thing that stymies me, is how the likes of you, by all appearances an intelligent fellow, can fall so easily for Pravda, Sputnik and RT propaganda.
@Michael
Not for the first time you have altered my words to suit your straw men challenges. Please do not do this again.
Peloni:
So, the Jews are Nazis now? I guess with you, all things are possible!
Hey, check out those “innocent civilians” that the Ukrainians killed in 2014. I just happened upon this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarRoom/comments/16rnfr7/russian_train_driver_testifies_that_russia_has/
I guess what you call “the Washington DC narrative”, is your way of saying “the truth”. You’re one mixed up dude, Peloni. Is it something you ate?
I am still waiting for the Nazi associating Zel to tell us that he didn’t mean to applaud the SS Nazi war criminal in Canada without alienating his base of Nazi’s back at home, who might just kill him for doing so. At the same time, I am waiting for the ADL which should have already made their response condemning Zel and his Nazi worshiping allies in Canada for their infamy yesterday. It would appear that Ukraine’s Nazi problem, which is not getting smaller, is spreading.
@Michael Finnish guys last nice.
No URL
Caitlin Johnson
The Bill Kristol-led group “Republicans for Ukraine” has released a TV ad to help drum up GOP support for Washington’s proxy war against Russia, and it’s surprisingly honest about what this war is really about: advancing US strategic interests using Ukrainians as sacrificial pawns.
Here’s a transcript:
“When America arms Ukraine, we get a lot for a little. Putin is an enemy of America. We’ve used 5% of our defense budget to arm Ukraine, and with it, they’ve destroyed 50% of Putin’s Army. We’ve done all this by sending weapons from storage, not our troops. The more Ukraine weakens Russia, the more it also weakens Russia’s closest ally, China. America needs to stand strong against our enemies, that’s why Republicans in Congress must continue to support Ukraine.”
“Republicans for Ukraine” was launched last month by “Defending Democracy Together”, another Kristol-led narrative management operation which is funded by oligarchs like Pierre Omidyar. Kristol, who as a neoconservative thought leader played a pivotal role in pushing for the 2003 invasion of Iraq, tweeted on Saturday that the ad “will air on the Sunday shows tomorrow in DC.”
One of the dumbest things the empire asks us to believe is that this war simultaneously (A) was completely unprovoked and (B) just coincidentally happens to massively advance the strategic interests of the government accused of provoking it. From the moment Russia invaded Ukraine in February 2022 westerners were aggressively hammered over and over and over again by the mass media with the uniform propaganda message that this was an “unprovoked invasion”, but ever since then we’ve also been receiving these peculiar messages from US empire managers and spinmeisters that this war is helping the United States crush its geopolitical enemies and advance its interests abroad.
This bizarre two-step occurs because the US-centralized empire needs to convey two self-evidently contradictory messages to the public at all times:
1. that the US is an innocent little flower who just wants to help its good friends the Ukrainians protect their democracy from the murderous Russians who invaded solely because they are evil and hate freedom, and
2. that it’s in the interest of Americans to continue this war.
The second point is required because the message that the US is merely an innocent passive witness to the violence in Ukraine necessarily causes certain political factions to ask, “Okay, so what are we doing there then? Why are we pouring all this money into something that has nothing to do with us?” So another narrative is required to explain that backing this proxy war also just so happens to be a massive boon to US strategic interests abroad while creating American jobs manufacturing weapons at home.
https://twitter.com/aaronjmate/status/1689731357511917569
And of course this war advances US strategic interests. Of course it does. Only an idiot would believe the US is pouring weapons into another country because it loves the people who live there and wants them to be free, and that it is only by pure coincidence that this happens to kill a lot of Russians, bolster NATO, and advance US energy interests in Europe. It doesn’t benefit normal Americans at home, but it absolutely does serve the interests of the globe-spanning empire that’s centralized around Washington. That’s why the empire deliberately provoked it.
Empire managers were openly discussing the ways a war in Ukraine would directly benefit the US empire long before the invasion. In 2019 a Pentagon-funded Rand Corporation paper titled “Extending Russia?—?Competing from Advantageous Ground” detailed how the empire can use proxy warfare, economic warfare and other Cold War tactics to push its longtime geopolitical foe to the brink without costing American lives or sparking a nuclear conflict. The US Army-commissioned paper mentioned Ukraine hundreds of times, and explicitly discussed how a war there could be used to promote sanctions against Moscow and attack Russia’s energy interests in Europe.
In December of 2021 John Deni of NATO propaganda firm The Atlantic Council authored a piece for The Wall Street Journal titled “The Strategic Case for Risking War in Ukraine,” subtitled “An invasion would be a diplomatic, economic and military mistake for Putin. Let him make it if he must.” Deni argued that “there are good strategic reasons for the West to stake out a hard-line approach” against Moscow and refuse to negotiate or back down over Ukraine, because if doing so provokes Russia to invade it would “forge an even stronger anti-Russian consensus across Europe,” “result in another round of more debilitating economic sanctions that would further weaken Russia’s economy,” and “sap the strength and morale of Russia’s military while undercutting Mr. Putin’s domestic popularity and reducing Russia’s soft power globally.”
https://twitter.com/KitKlarenberg/status/1705965801767866658
The minds on the inside of the empire were talking about how this war would benefit the US before the invasion, and they’ve been talking about how much it benefits the US ever since. As the Washington Post’s David Ignatius put it this past July: “these 18 months of war have been a strategic windfall, at relatively low cost (other than for the Ukrainians). The West’s most reckless antagonist has been rocked. NATO has grown much stronger with the additions of Sweden and Finland. Germany has weaned itself from dependence on Russian energy and, in many ways, rediscovered its sense of values. NATO squabbles make headlines, but overall, this has been a triumphal summer for the alliance.”
The managers of the empire are getting everything they want out of this war. In public they rend their garments and cry crocodile tears and call it a terrible criminal atrocity, but every now and then they look at the camera and flash it a quick Fleabag-style grin.
They knew exactly what they were doing when they provoked this war, and they know exactly what they’re doing by keeping it going.
And they’re loving every minute of it.
@Michael
Your entire thread is pretty close to being a carbon copy of the Washington DC narrative, so forgive me for having pointed it out. Your last rant makes this even more so.
@Michael Since when was Leningrad oil country?
Well, ain’t that a howdy do. Neever mind, tvaritsch -er-pardner. I wonder if they’re making oil somewhere in Manhattan? Quick, my ten-gallon hat.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zavod_Slantsy
https://youtu.be/5m6Czgl1acU?si=DUYJcB0z5opa9wdV
Hi again, Peloni
“The Washington narrative”? Please spare me! The only “Washington” I might like to see is the state, and that doesn’t include Seattle. If the Canadians ever get rid of their dictator, and I can renew my passport without getting the “death shot”, it would be nice to go through Washington on my way to visit Edgar.
If Russia wants its security concerns addressed, it’s probably best off finding a face-saving way out of this war it started. Finland has already joined NATO now, Sweden’s on the way, and Ukraine will be next. Meanwhile, they just got chased out of Nagorno-Karabach by the Azerbaijanis, are now a stench in the nostrils of their Armenian allies, they’re losing the Black Sea fleet and half their generals, they’ve been going hat-in-hand to North Korea to beg for ammunition, their Pacific Fleet flagship is scheduled to be scrapped soon, their only aircraft carrier may never sail from the repair dock, Putin has had to kill his old friend Prygozhyn and annihilate Wagner, and the Chinese are becoming his master instead of his friend. The clock is ticking for Putin.
@Michael
Your support of the Washington narrative is never waning, but until it is recognize that Russia has security concerns which must, and always should have been, addressed, this war will continue. Being blind to this simple fact is why you have come to support a plan which only serves the purposes of the Washing Neocons whose lack of interest in diplomatic norms brought this war about.
Big “Oops!”, Peloni:
https://youtu.be/6EDHlhBDjZg
@Micheal
@Sebastien
Sebastien is quite correct. Ukraine will NEVER enter NATO. They are and have been the ultimate tool of the US and NATO as the hope of membership in the ultimate Anti-Russian organization in the world is dangled like a carrot in front of the Ukrainian donkey who drifts ever onward to do the bidding of others and suffering all the tragedies of the hard work of facing Russia’s extensive assets on the battlefield. It has nothing to do with the desires of the Ukrainians, whose desire to continue this war is at least represented by the reports of draft dodging and forced consriptions to find new bodies to place in the NATO donated body bags.
So you think Russia massing an army of a million men in Ukraine, which can not be fielded by Ukraine much less armed by the West, will leave Russia to settle for what they refuse to accept? Nonsense.
I disagree. Trump wants peace, but to get it he will have to address Russia’s security concerns and this will not include Ukraine being in NATO, nor a frozen conflict. Also, Trump is not controlling the situation on the ground.
By the way, I am not taking your peace proposal seriously. Not in the least. It is the desired outcome which the Neocons would jump at, but they alone would find any merit in it, and they have no leverage over Russia, which is what really brought this war about.
Hi, Sebastien. You said,
You are correct; but now that they have already been obliged to “fight WWIIi”, they should be all the more happy to accept Ukraine into the fold. They are, and have done so. The only problem,at the moment, is Turkiye:
https://www.gzeromedia.com/puppet-regime/world-high-biden-wont-let-zelensky-rush
@Michael
In the real world, NATO has repeatedly refused or stalled Ukraine’s requests for membership and will continue to do so because they know that that would oblige member countries to fight World War III This is more of an undeclared proxy war like Vietnam or Afghanistan. Watch, Washington and it’s satellites, notably including Canada, of all places, will just cut its losses and scram, leaving its former clients high and dry, at some point. They are already cooling, no kiss from Nancy Pelosi, no address to joint session of Congress for Zelensky. We’re losing and running out of money to borrow. For the Russians, this is a continuation of WWII. They will fight to the death, if need be. It’s not existential for us. All we’ve accomplished is to further cement the alliance between Russia, Iran and China. And, that’s bad for America and the West, and really bad for Israel.
Bad Biden, bad. Go to your room. No supper for you tonight! 😀
—-
Alternate response: “It’s good to want things.” – “Welcome Home Roxy Carmichael.” 1990.
Hi, Peloni
I’m glad to see that you areseriouwsly considering my peace proposal.
I live in a real world, Peloni. The Ukrainian government has made it clear, that they intend to join NATO. Dialogue and cooperation started when newly independent Ukraine joined the North Atlantic Cooperation Council (1991) and the Partnership for Peace programme (1994). I’m sure you know that if a referendum were held on the matter today, the Ukrainian people would overwhelmingly support membership.
As for Putin, he thought he could prevent Ukrainian NATO membership by invading Ukraine. He failed: Instead, because of Putin’s own actions, the border of NATO states (namely, Finland) with Russia has now more than doubled. Any rationale Putin might have had before of creating a “buffer region” between himself and NATO is now moot. Ukraine will not settle for peace with Russia, without a solid security guaranty; and that guaranty is NATO membership and the protection of Article 5.
Whatever you or anyone else thinks the condition of the line of actual control should be, the situation IS what it is. Ukraine controls certain territory, and Russia controls certain territory. This is a fact, which cannot be changed without conflict. This is how the Poland-Germany border was settled, how the Poland-Russia border was settled, how the India-Pakistan border was settled, how the Taiwan-China border was settled and, from 1949-1967, how the Israeli borders with Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt were settled. This is also very likely close to the solution US President Trump envisions.
Lavrov and Putin are not in a position of strength: They have been steadily losing ground and materiel to Ukraine for over a year. They will have to settle for what they can get.
@Michael
So you think that the only solution to a war which was caused by NATO expanding eastward is to allow NATO to expand further eastward? This says all that needs to be said about why you must understand a problem in order to have any hope of dealing with it.
There will be no freezing of the conflict to advantage the West which can not keep up with wartime productions. There will be no pause to allow the Ukrainians to train another force which might hope again to cut the Crimean land bridge.
There will be a resolution of the very issues raised by Lavrov in this speech and which you likely did not even watch, or this war will continue to its inevitable end.
Peloni,
I wonder what you expect to accomplish with finding fault. The leaders of all sides will eventually have to appear before some international tribunal, such as the ICC. The facts will come out then, and the curious will be satisfied. Meanwhile, Ukrainian civilians and Russian military keep getting killed, every day the Russian occupation continues.
It’s pretty clear, how this war will have to end: Immediate ceasefire, followed by NATO membership for Ukraine.
Lavrov made a particularly articulate discription of the causes for the outbreak of war, and yet the only critique of his nearly half hour statement is that he is an antisemite. I would argue if Russia is at fault, it is the points raised in his speech which should be addressed rather than his views on the Jewish People, which does seem hardly relevant to his statement.
Hi, Bear.
The pictures were beautiful! I am retired; but we do not have the money or health to go galavanting. I am glad you can do so, though, and I wish you the best on your book venture.
Ted do you not understand that the Bears of this world never discuss. They all keep a little book full of vulnerabilities of the “enemy”
You see their eyes glistening. Ha got my answer in my little book.
Every Single Time
As Greta said More Blah boring Blah
I can see that Michael and Bear as always come not to discuss but to ARGUE
Different. Two separate concepts.
It is a very barren way of living.
No matter what Lavrov will ever ever say his fate forever is sealed
I knew that Bear would laser like go for the Hitler incident
Such a bore.
Of course he’s writing a book!!!
But Zelensky has used his Jewishness 100 per cent in a most comprehensive way against Russia
Did Nuland have a hand in picking Zelensky and the answer is very likely.
The Irish I know have a bad conscience re the Jews and got some relief when they cheered him AS A JEW in their rotten little Dail
If you watch closely there is a shot of Blinken listening, but of course not listening, with no interest in the content.
Very similar to Stalin and Stalinism in their approach
They would attend meetings, listen to the Opposition and then murder them.
The Gravediggers of the Revolution
Trotsky still not rehabilitated in Russia
We need a different approach. A more systematic approach to how to get information across. You can see how people on this site disregard all
I call it a method in this case not seeking of knowledge but its very opposite.
So I wrote the following comment containing a link to Baud:
Different cultures are allowed to flourish in the Russian Federation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viaImobjmis
@Bear. I am not disputing that he is an antisemite. I just think that in no way discredits what he said in his speech.
@Bear Stunning. Thank you. But, now that I’ve seen them, why bother going there?
So I will hope to retreat to more profitable and enjoyable pursuits. Working very part time now. Starting writing a book and it will also require travel for research. Last year I went to CapeTown and I do not recommend that for more than 4 or 5 days at most.
I suggest you all check out some of these wonderful surreal vacation spots on earth. My guess is most of you are retired so hopeful you have some money to enjoy some of these great places.
https://www.touropia.com/most-surreal-places-on-earth/
@Peloni ’twas, indeed.
@Ted, read the whole article I had on the link below and there are many other articles that clearly point out Lavarov was making many antiSemitic statements. If you want to pretend it is not true so be it. Surely if you do not care that you are supporting antiSemites and mass murders, I will quit pointing that reality. I will quit wasting my time. Just to help if you actually want to know who you are endorsing and stop closing your eyes and mind to it. I will spoon feed you here.
TED BY THE WAY IF it is TRUE it is NOT a SMEAR CAMPAIGN BUT HEY YOU WAKE UP AND SEE YOU ARE SUPPORTING MURDERS AND ANTISEMITES!!
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-denounces-lavrovs-hitler-comments-summons-russian-ambassador-2022-05-02/
EvRe. Thanks for your support. You get it.
As was stated below, calling someone a Putinpundit or a Russian asset, which was said about Trump, is what someone does when he or she does not have a clear and comprehensive understanding of the situation, based upon verifiable facts. The problem these days in the US is that the media put out fake news and outright lies based upon what they are told to do by the government or Big Pharma.
It does not make sense to say someone who has expressed numerous times their strong disapproval of Communism, their strong disapproval of Communist traitors in the US government, and to call that person a Russian asset or Putin pundit.
It is quite possible to be against Communism and at the same time to see that the government of the United States has provoked this war with Putin and not the other way around.
It is also important to realize that US propaganda has attempted to cover up the reality of the neo-Nazi regime in Ukraine because they know Americans would be totally against giving one cent to Ukraine if they knew the facts.
The facts as I have read them are that the Neo-Nazi regime is leading the fight against Putin on the Ukrainian side, with the full knowledge of and help from the Biden junta.
The Neo-Nazis were/are against Russian speaking Ukrainians and want to ban the Russian language from the country, despite the fact that people in Western Ukraine speak Russian.
The government in Kiev is not a functioning democracy. The government in the US is also not a functioning democracy. Both countries have corrupt governments which criminalize opposition. Ukraine has cancelled elections. The US government has cancelled free and fair elections, going through the pretend act of a massively fraudulent election and trying to imprison anyone who speaks the truth about it.
Some who read articles here and post comments see things from the US government perspective and agree with it. Some who read articles here and post comments see through the propaganda and make their own judgments by reading alternative online digital news and information platforms.
In listening to Lavrov I thought he made good points about the US and NATO not adhering to the UN charter, but making up their own rules despite the fact that they are members of the UN and are signatories to the Charter. He made many good points about the war, and he stated that Putin has been willing to enter negotiations and has not refused negotiations. He pointed out how the European countries stated publicly that the never meant to keep to the Minsk treaty, but used the time to arm Ukraine and prepare Ukraine militarily for war. This is a fact. It is easily verifiable. The US and NATO seem to me to be the ones who say one thing and do another. The current US government and NATO seem to me to be untrustworthy members of the international community, as much as it pains me to say this.
I think it is important not to alienate each other even though we have different perspectives. We are one people, and we all want peace.
@Michale@Bear. Don’t waste my time with your smear campaigns. What did Lavrov say that you disagree with? In what way was he wrong?
@Bear
No worries, Bear. I appreciate your sincerity. Sorry I mixed up yours and Michael’s terms.
@Peloni that term you just used is something that was used by Michael. I created a different term which I thought was funny and pointed it out to Seb in particular because he is trying to bring out his inner Don Rickles. My term I used was Putinpundit. Which I have apologized for using it because it offended you. It was a sarcastic term which I thought was funny in the style of Don Rickles.
Then my mother hated him and found him offensive. Anyway again I am sorry I offended as that was not my intent.
@Sebastien
Yes, Michael’s response was a bit funny wasn’t it.
@Bear
If I have offended you during our conversations, it is not my intent. Certainly I do not recall creating such a term as Putinistas to abuse your person, not to my recollection in any event. If I have been short with you or insulted you, however, please accept my apology for doing so. Yom Kippur is fast approaching, but I would make such an apology on any day of the year, as I deem it bad form to disparage people to support my positions, such as they are. Thank you
@Michael
@ Peloni, if I have offended you by my sarcastic joke in making up the name Putinpundits I offer sincere apology in the Spirit of Yom Kippur and as Adam offered early to you.
That said, I truly find it sad and disappointing that you and the others arguing endless on legitimizing the Russian takeover of another country and seem okay if Putin was to keep repeating this in the other European countries formally of the Soviet Union.
As I said before we will not agree on this subject.
You may want to check yourself by the way, you have made some of your arguments to me actually are offensive and condescending . I will not get into specifics but leave that for you to sort out for yourself. As this no longer feels like a debate but a pissing contest disguised in the trappings of a debate.
Peloni,
How long have Bear and I been with you, and you haven’t realized that neither of us wants to spend hours engaging in fruitless arguments?
You’ve made your position clear: You want the Russians to take over Ukraine, without any conseuences for their despicable actions. You dress this up, by calling their despicable actions “honorable” and calling the Ukrainian’s just actions (nationhood, and self-defense) “despicable”. Why argue endlessly about this?
If you ever want to put away this childishness, I propose that we discuss, if anything, how to bring about peace in Ukraine. I have done so already, and you have shown no interest.
@Michael
@Bear
The use of derision to mischaracterize an opponent is typically a employed by the Left. Such Alinskey tactics are beneath each of your ability to fairly argue your position without maligning those who happen to disagree with you. I have always seen such lowborn tactics to be a consequence of the Left’s inability to win an argument on the merit of the argument and thus choose to legitimize their opponents instead. Of course, you have each in the past employed other such personal derisions such as falsely labeling your opponents as Putin apologists. I wonder if the return of the Alinskey characteristics in your comments is due to your recognition of needing more support than you can bring without such ad hominem or if you simply enjoy mischaracterizing people who disagree with you. Perhaps you will each respond and explain why you need such insulting verbiage to support your positions.
Hi, Bear
I took a day off, and have come back to see the Putinistsas in full meltdown on the “F**l Ukraine” thread. Don’t be dismayed. You struck a raw nerve. They’ll get over it.
Meanwhile, Scott Ritter keeps on prophesying doom for Ukraine, while Russian soldiers are filling the mass graves.
(Caution: very graphic) https://www.reddit.com/r/LoveForUkraine/comments/16pynru/brutal_life_in_ruzzland/
…and losing their leadership in Crimea and Nagorno-Karabakh
https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarRoom/comments/16pm8ft/sevastopol_it_wasbecame_satellite_images_of_the/
It takes a lot of energy to prop up liars like Ritter & Co., and to paint the genocidal Russians as heroes. I prefer, for the most part, to let the facts on the ground speak for themselves. Happy New Year. May all Israel’s enemies end up like Putin!
Short life expectancy for Russians in Ukraine:
Now Ted, you are posting speeches from a Russian antiSemite Lavarov.
Full article at https://thehill.com/policy/international/3477145-lavrovs-antisemitic-nazi-remarks-likely-no-accident/
Ted – you should rename part of the site to Puntinpundits. You were insulted and mad at me months ago when I said something to the effect that you were a believer and follower of Putin.
Here you are literally presenting and taking the side of Lavarov , Putin’s junior partner in crime his Foreign Minister.
So much for objectivity. You have picked your side Putin and Russia.
So Ted, I ask you does Putin and Russia have a right to take back all the eastern European Countries that were part of the Soviet Union or only Ukraine? His mass murder of hundred’s of thousands of people and kidnapping of children is okay with you?
I really do have to stop writing here and get back to my book. I am wasting my time. So Ted, if you want to threaten to ban me or delete posts in mass go ahead, please!