I agree that this process is leading to “constructive unilateralism” or “convergence”. As I pointed out, the referendum law doesn’t apply when we are ceding land in J&S. The question is are we better off if Bayit Yehudi stays in the government or leaves? If not Bennett, who? I like the thought of negotiating with Shas and UTJ for their includsion in the government. They would have to agree with keeping all of J&S and the government would have to agree to restore some of their financing. Ted Belman
Former Knesset member and ex-chairman of the National Union party Yaakov Katz (Ketzaleh) is calling on the Bayit Yehudi MKs to immediately depose the chairman of the religious-Zionist party, Economics Minister Naftali Bennett. Katz says Bennett knows that the current “peace talks” are rigged to lead to the eviction and demolition of eight Jewish communities around Shechem.
Katz says Bennett is complicit in the impending demolition because he is staying in the Coalition, rather than leaving it now.
“I call on the Knesset members of Bayit Yehudi to convene immediately and depose Naftali Bennett from all of his functions in the leadership of the party, because of the impending destruction of the Torah world and demolition of the settlement enterprise that we are facing,” the former leader of the religious Zionist party wrote on his Facebook page.
“Bennett knows, just as I do, that Bibi-Livni-Kerry-Abu Mazen have already agreed on an interim agreement in which, 8 months from now, the Jewish communities around Shechem will be razed.
“Just as Bennett knew about the harsh cut in funding for yeshivas and Toraheducational institutes, and told his faction and the heads of the institutions that nothing would happen, just to keep them quiet, so today, Bennett is hiding the great threat to the settlement enterprise from everyone today.
“Everyone now knows that Bennett’s messages of calm were baseless. 66% of the funding for the Torah world was cut, and the same thing will happen now if the Bayit Yehudi postpones Bennett’s dismissal until the presentation of the agreement for destruction of communities.
“By then it will be too late, and our public will again have to face the same horrific sights that it experienced only 8 years ago in Gaza and northern Samaria,” he said, referring to the forced deportation of 9,000 Jews from Gaza and four communities in Samaria during the 2005 “Disengagement.”
Katz called on the party to “fix what has been twisted and immediately conduct negotiations with its natural partners in the hareidi parties, for their entry into the government instead of Lapid.”
Katz was referring to Yair Lapid, the head of the Yesh Atid party, currently the second largest Knesset faction with 19 seats. He envisions a coalition in which the hareidi parties, which number 18 MKs together, would take Lapid’s place.
Bayit Yehudi was formed in a merger between parts of the National Union and the National Religious Party prior to the last elections, following Bennett’s election as head of the party. Bennett has been widely credited with reviving the religious-Zionist political bloc, which prior to the merger had only 7 seats between the two parties – just over half of the combined list’s twelve seats today.
But there has been a growing sense of unease among many Bayit Yehudi supporters surrounding Bennett’s decision to ally the party with the center-left Yesh Atid party on the issue of equal army service, which entails the ending of the blanket exemption for hareidi yeshiva students.
beniyyar Said:
I am curious as to what those demands are? What is the goal of the coalition regarding a “peace” agreement. what do you think they are aiming for. I have had a very difficult time trying to reconcile those who want to annex YS, those who want to annex C, those who only want the major settlements and non arab jerusalem. It appears to me that the coalition is populated with the whole range so I have difficulty figuring out what they are trying to achieve. It appears to me that the leader is trying to achieve the least of the range of goals. It is appearing to me that any party could give away as much as the leader appears to be offering. However, I could be wrong and I hope you are able to show me otherwise. Even better, I hope it is a big trick designed to fall apart and revert to the status quo, the best one can hope for now.
reply 24 to Yamit in moderation
yamit82 Said:
It can, that is the potential, but who do you see who would act to bring about any of what you suggest?
yamit82 Said:
who are those who would join the party?
yamit82 Said:
Who will make this happen?
yamit82 Said:
Which Jews? I only see Feiglin, no one follows, what will motivate them and who will be motivated, and how will they be motivated? There is no evidence to suggest that there are more than a handful of Jews willing to take action, if there were they would have been protesting already for decades. More energy is spent arguing about a woman in the front of a bus or beating up an IDF soldier than on anything related to the Mount by those you would expect to have the most interest. Therefore, I cannot imagine who will rise up and storm the Mount? It might be a good idea to consider what issues have galvanized Israelis to action and/or protest?
yamit82 Said:
I expect that the pressure will be to cede east of the green lines except for major settlements only and that Jerusalem where the arabs are now is what they will give and whatever exists on the mount now is what they will continue Israel did not use their authority and therefore probably do not value that authority, control or sovereignty.
yamit82 Said:
This does not strike me as a plan or long term goal but rather the consolation prize if lucky.
yamit82 Said:
I think we agree that the religious cannot be relied on to do this because they have not for decades stood up for freedom of jewish prayer on the mount. No one follows feiglin in his trips to the mount to protest. If the religious cannot stand up and storm the mount I cannot figure out who you think might possibly storm the mount. Who is that target market that you are speaking to?
yamit82 Said:
I wonder what their perspective is? the state may have the last say but never seem to want to have that say. They always appear to end up backing the pal/jordanian authority against the Jews. GOI’s have seen that through the decades of this authority the jews have rarely stood up for religious freedom or stormed the Mount and probably figure that giving it to them is basically the continuation in stone of the same status quo that has existed for decades. Perhaps the govt wants the pals or jordanians to handle it, after all isn’t it usually PA police who chase jews off? Beware the status quo: decades of a modus operandi has great strength, after all, that which one does not have cannot be missed. The only thing I have seen where Israel exercised authority is when they ban young muslims from the amount or close it a day or two.
yamit82 Said:
I already answered on liberman right below you in #11 above:
https://www.israpundit.org/archives/57121/comment-page-1#comment-286747
yamit82 Said:
Not sure I understand you, are you saying the Iran problem is the determining factor behind the current, IMHO, faux “negotiations”?
I read the joint article with beres, who I often find interesting. However, it seemed to me that everything in the article has been stated before. there is a lot of writing and a lot of useless speculation: perhaps this, perhaps that, maybe this maybe that. I don’t find his argument of ditching nuclear ambiguity to be convincing, as last he stated it. I think it would add no advantage.
One of the scenarios that I have never heard considered is this: we all assume that Iran is crazy and the goal is to annihilate Israel; it is possible that their goal is not to annihilate Israel with direct nuclear weapons but to deny Israel first strike is the event of Israel losing a terror or conventional war. That Israel will have to sue for terms rather than threaten nuclear war as in 73. Terror and expendable bodies are iranian assets, perhaps they feel they can make gains on those fronts and Israel will not be able to threaten nuclear strikes. Perhaps instead of MAD being irrelevant they rely on MAD to determine Israel’s future actions.
yamit82 Said:
why didn’t he? Instead he chose to bring in Lapid who will give away C which, supposedly, Bennett is against. HMMMM? If he is against it why did he give lapid power. It appears as if Bennets anti religious party agenda was more important than his pro area C agenda; and yet we thought his pro C agenda was his prime agenda. HMMMMM again??
Therefore, I repeat:
bernard ross Said:
this is a fact not a speculation
Therefore, i would pin not one shred of hope on your advised scenario of:
yamit82 Said:
This is the true curse of the national camp, clowns like this Katzeleh who will accept nothing less than 110 percent of their demands and if the leader is not absolutely perfect, then throw him out, tear down the entire government and go for elections because if we cannot be perfect then we have no business being in any government. The truth is that these Katzeleh types and those who back them are just perfect fools who cannot even see when they finally have a coalition responsive to most of their demands, no these fools can only accept perfection and better for them that Labor and Meretz should be running things so they can oppose them too.
This is the real and open wound of our national coalition, and worse, no one tells these dangerous fools to just shut up and try to live with the best political world available. Katzeleh and his holier than thou extremists are the real cause of the Oslo Debacle and the Ehud Barak government, because they cannot accept victory if that victory is not what they consider perfect. I would tell this Katzeleh clown to grow up but that is not his problem, his problem is that his stupid extremism has rendered him and his circus irrelevant and he cannot accept that he and his followers are their own worst enemies.
@ bernard ross:
Abu Bluff seethes: No ‘progress’ in ‘talks’
Another comment to ross in moderation???
That’s 2 in moderation to ross.????
——————————————————————————————————
@ bernard ross:
http://samsonblinded.org/blog/the-temple-of-our-nation.htm
@ bernard ross:
Jordan and the Wakf they inserted have religious custody or authority on the Mount but the State of Israel still retains legal authority.
What Israel has allowed and ceded to Jordan can be taken back. What can they do about it? They need us more than we need them in fact we don’t really NEED them. Except for a few Businessmen we don’t travel to Jordan and they don’t come to Israel. The level of security cooperation we have today is about the same as we had before the Peace agreement which we paid for among other things with giving them free 750 million cube m of water each year depriving ourselves and making us pay through the roof for the price of water.
Since the negotiations so far are being held in secrecy we can’t know for sure what’s been given away but any speculation for the worse is probably accurate. Since the Temple and Jerusalem is the ultimate deal breaker it makes sense too put most of our marbles in making sure that the temple is the weapon of choice and most effective way in assuring the negotiations and BB fail. Don’t need that many activists to pull it of either. A few hundred to a dew thousand but the idea needs to be sold and organized civil disobedience agreed upon. Needs a leader whith charisma.
All of your suggestions were valid a generation or two in the past. We don’t have the time even if it could be done to do it to immediate effect. We have negotiations that have to be torpedoed. We have Iran and BB succumbing to the will of the Americans and Europeans.
Jerusalem and the Temple mount can have the immediate effect like nothing else at this point.
The Temple of our nation
“My sanctuary, the pride of your power” Ezekiel 24:21
The Temple: To rebuild or not to rebuild? The arguments pro are political; the arguments contra are religious.
The major attribute of the Temple’s holiness, the Ark, was gone already from the Second Temple, making it largely devoid of sanctity. The Temple was repeatedly desecrated, the priests were as corrupt then as the rabbinical leaders are now, and it is overall difficult to expect the Divine Presence to descend into the Holy of Holies. I can’t imagine G-d being attracted to a golden menorah donated by the Ukrainian magnate Rabinovich. An element of holiness was lost. Or was it?
The Bible depicts Jews as prone to paganism then as to atheism now, with ancient rulers as evil as Shimon Peres, and prophets as rare as decent rabbis today. The laws of the Torah retain their applicability precisely because modern people remain morally similar to their ancestors. Herod the Great, with his pagan views, hardly imagined the Temple as a divine abode, but invested huge efforts into embellishing it. The Diaspora Jews did not bring the Temple sacrifices, but duly remitted a half-shekel or more for the upkeep of the Temple.
The Temple is a political institution. It asserts the Jewish character of the state, limits the authority of secular rulers, and unifies the Jewish nation. It is not really significant for our purposes whether the Divine Presence would reveal itself to a modern high priest: it is enough that the high priest exists. Israel leans to the left because there is no visible right; most rabbis are no more religious than the average MK. The Temple, sacrifices, and hereditary priesthood will create enormous pressure for the right end of the Israeli political spectrum.
The Temple will rally the Jews. The lawgiver installed the system of sacrifices to answer the deepest human urge for a clear-cut absolution of guilt. Sacrifices signified an individual’s return to moral purity: repent, restitute, bring sacrifices, and stop worrying about the transgressions of the past. Don’t be sorry for the sheep: we’ll eat them instead of the cows. Sacrifices will reassure the Jews that absolute moral purity exists and can be striven for.
The Temple will provide the sense of Jewish continuity, the connection with ancient roots that the beaches of Tel Aviv utterly lack. The Diaspora Jews will formally unite with Israelis by sending annual contributions to the Temple. The world will see the Jews again as an odd religious crowd rather than secular colonizers of Palestine.
Israel needs a political party with a single goal: rebuilding the Temple. The other goals can be inferred from that one. Let the Supreme Court try to ban the party or the MKs to ostracize it.
Forget about religion. Rebuild the Temple.
Comment to Ross in moderation again????
yamit82 Said:
this makes no sense to me, it is lack of attention to PR, lawfare and pro settlement diplomacy that has been the problem.
yamit82 Said:
where are these thousands coming from. Religious Jews have not endorsed this struggle and no one follows feiglin to the mount so who will go; the ignorant and the secular? If the religious don’t stand up for the mount then this is not the place of focus. If they have not stood up for decades what will change them now? The religious are already galvanized to protest for what they want and nothing more can be gained directed at them. If they cannot stand up for the Mount then expect no one else. it is the ignorant and secular jews whose mind can be changed not those already committed to their position.
yamit82 Said:
this statement makes no sense there is no creeping, it was given to Jordan after 1967 with their authority of the WAKF. It is that authority which has been operating against jews for decades. It is the long-held status quo which will likely be enshrined. There is no need to fear “facts on the ground”, or “what will be” because those facts exist and have existed for decades. The writer is decades late. The religious riot against serving in the army and women in the front of the bus but why aren’t they following feiglin to the Mount, or leading feiglin to the Mount? When calling for thousands to go the Mount why will the religious suddenly go and why will the secular and ignorant be motivated to go in their place. It is unrealistic even from my vantage point.
yamit82 Said:
he seems to be barreling ahead with no opposition from within or without his party in the coalition. He appears to have given Livni free hand, he has clearly stated what he wants but likud supporters think he means something else. .I don’t think he will keep more of C than the major settlements and will swap land for it. I think he will make a long-term security arrangement in the jOrdan valley that after 10 years will hand over to pals or jordan under confed. In jerusalem I think the minimum is they will give a diplomatic enclave and arab areas of east jerusalem but jews can remain and have dual citizenship. The one posted the other day by ted from an arabic site sounds like it might be true.
bernard ross Said:
BB had a problem he didn’t want either party. He hates or at least his domineering wife hates Bennett. Lapid refused to enter into a coalition with Shas and the Haredim. The likud wanted Shas Bennett and the haredim and not Lapid partly because of the ideological makeup of mire than half his list and partly because they viewed him as a serious competitor. BB with Bennett could have formed a colation with the religious parties without Lapid but with Lapid and without Bennett and the religious parties he couldn’t form a coalition. Therefore Bennett had the strongest hand but he used it poorly partly not to lose popularity and not to stick it to the Likud who who needs at least those who claim nationalist ideology. Knowing BB and his wife Sarah Bennett suspected correctly that if BB could convince Labor to Join he wold be out in the cold and BB played that possibility to the end as a club over Bennett. It Worked.
Couldn’t be helped under the circumstances and lapid’s position on Jerusalem is in line with most of the Likud. Without an agreement on Jerusalem the negotiations will fail. Lapid is not a liberal on social and financial issues and is in agreement with Bennett on many of these issues. Theory being lets cooperate where there is common ground and fight it out where there isn’t. Circumstances have forced Lapid further to the left than he is because BB sandbagged him with the finance ministry and he is the one who has to make budget cuts hurting many of his constituents and is falling in all polls, which is what BB knew would happen. That forced Lapid I believe. to support the leftist position stronger than what otherwise would be.
BB has no loyalty to anyone..To maintain power he will discard anyone. Politically bribe those he wants.
Feiglin stays within Likud casting useless votes and making useless trips to the mount where he is followed by no religious jews. what is libermans positions, is he for YS. Looks like BB understood the weaknesses of his coalition and knows how to shuffle them out a la sharon.
https://www.israpundit.org/archives/57121/comment-page-1#comment-286739
THIS IS WHAT MATTERS!!!!
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/159321#.UhYX56yBbfh
yamit82 Said:
doesn’t appear to be interested in C…….is willing to swap Israeli land for settlements(the difference is he will send the arabs with the land)
yamit82 Said:
What does he want, does he want all of C, does he want to annex, or does he just want to say no. Just saying No while remaining in the coalition gets him elected and keeps perks but will it contribute anything. Whats his plan?
yamit82 Said:
BB has always proven to be too smart by half. He’s no Sharon and he always trips himself up eventually. Problem is how much damage he can inflict till that happens.
bernard ross Said:
Lieberman lives in the west bank
Avigdor Lieberman’s home is a virtual fortress
yamit82 Said:
I agree but lets look at this “coalition”. Bennett made an entry pact with lapid against BB. Lapid will give away YS and Bennett helped bring him in. BB has no loyalty to bennett as Bennett already played the game of asking to be screwed when he went with Lapid. Feiglin stays within Likud casting useless votes and making useless trips to the mount where he is followed by no religious jews. what is libermans positions, is he for YS. Looks like BB understood the weaknesses of his coalition and knows how to shuffle them out a la sharon.
Bayit Yehudi and Bennett has a single mandate from their supporters. TO BLOCK ANY AGREEMENT FOR A PALIS STATE AND TO BLOCK ANY SETTLEMENT DESTRUCTION.
So far he has failed to accomplish any of his mandated obligations to those who supported and voted for him and his party. Having worked closely with BB for 2 years and having left skid marks in escaping BB, he should know better than most what BB is about and who and what he is.
Go to opposition now organize as much support against BB and his supporters in the likud and become militantly activistic in opposition.
If BB coopts Labor, that will unseat many Likud MK some from their ministries and remove the only Nationalist party from the government coalition. The religious parties and Shas are not right wing or nationalist. They are whores who need the government ATM to survive and will join if the price is right. Will Lapid stick with Shas in the same coalition is the question? With Labor in the Government coalition it will be a left of center coalition and force some Likud MK’s to bolt if not from the Likud then from support of BB. I don’t see BB surviving if most of the Likud MK’s and his own party oppose him. It might push Lieberman to get off the fence and bolt the Likud returning to their own faction status.
Bennett can start the revolt today by quitting the coalition.
Moshe Feiglin: The Time to Stop Netanyahu is Now
Who is Fooling Whom? By Michael Fuah
“But in this game, in which everyone is deceiving everyone, the winner is the person who leads; not those being led.”
Read more
Yamit82 said:
Bennett can be more effective leading the opposition from outside of the government. The right and those opposed to an agreement need leadership and someone to rally round. Bennett inside the government is trumped by the support for BB in the current opposition who will replace him if he bolts.
The key to stopping BB must come from within the likud including Lieberman. The government is dragging out Liebermans trial so as to neutralize him and his party, so he is left to make public statements to let people know he is still there. If Lieberman hopes to become PM he needs to oppose BB and not be part of any deal BB is making now. Bennett and Lieberman with some others in the likud could form a blocking coalition against BB and remove any legitimacy from him and any deal he is trying to make. We can now add Katz to opposition to BB. He carries a lot of weight in the Likud party.
Best thing to do is to force BB’s hand now see who will join him and see whether Lapid, who is sinking like the Titanic in the polls will agree to sit with the Haredim and Shas? If he does his credibility will be close to zero with his supporters.
Let’s see who is willing to commit political suicide before a deal is made by reneging on all key principles for an as yet consummated peace deal? My gut tells me there would be few tears if the Likud is forced to call elections. There is a lot of buyers remorse over the results in the last elections and BB will do even more poorly than the last time.
Bennett leaving the coalition now might force a Likud palace revolt much earlier than any planned for, especially BB.
comment in moderation
bernard ross Said:
Yamit82 said:
Bennett can be more effective leading the opposition from outside of the government. The right and those opposed to an agreement need leadership and someone to rally round. Bennett inside the government is trumped by the support for BB in the current opposition who will replace him if he bolts.
The key to stopping BB must come from within the likud including Lieberman. The government is dragging out Liebermans trial so as to neutralize him and his party, so he is left to make public statements to let people know he is still there. If Lieberman hopes to become PM he needs to oppose BB and not be part of any deal BB is making now. Bennett and Lieberman with some others in the likud could form a blocking coalition against BB and remove any legitimacy from him and any deal he is trying to make. We can now add Katz to opposition to BB. He carries a lot of weight in the Likud party.
Best thing to do is to force BB’s hand now see who will join him and see whether Lapid, who is sinking like the Titanic in the polls will agree to sit with the Haredim and Shas? If he does his credibility will be close to zero with his supporters.
Let’s see who is willing to commit political suicide before a deal is made by reneging on all key principles for an as yet consummated peace deal? My gut tells me there would be few tears if the Likud is forced to call elections. There is a lot of buyers remorse over the results in the last elections and BB will do even more poorly than the last time.
Bennett leaving the coalition now might force a Likud palace revolt much earlier than any planned for, especially BB.
What if Bibi takes Labor in. I do not think this is wise. Katzahleh got nowhere in government because he is too inflexible. Bennett has more sense. This is a power play by Katzaleh to take back the party.
Bennett stays in power and helps vote down stupid agreements.
Katzaleh’s approach gets you in the opposition with 8 seats not in the government