Israel’s worst nightmare

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1. I was very late in replying to these wild comments by Bill Narvey, being unable to answer Bill Narvey yesterday due to a personal problem, but being called away from the Internet Shop where I download, I had a read at it last night and I must say that while I have read some crazy outbursts on the web in my time, that of Bill Narvey just about takes the proverbial biscuit. To be quite honest the only thing I could do at times was laugh, the language was so extreme, the repetitive use of “The Serbs” betrayed Mr Narvey’s real politics, it seemed to me that he had not moved beyond the gutter press vilification of the Serbs that we saw in Britain from the 90s on into today. If nothing else the warriors who fought for clarity on these issues here on Israpundit have done the Jewish struggle an enormous amount of good by flushing out this vileness which lurks not too far beneath the wordy verbiage of Mr Narveys’ politics.

   As regards taking ourselves off somewhere, which was Bill Narvey’s advice, I have news for Bill. It is just about the easiest thing in the world to set up a website. The secret though is what is its purpose.

   Some of the best research that I have ever seen has been done in recent weeks and this research has been made available in an absolutely combative manner on the Internet. Israpundit is indeed privileged to be part of that. It has strengthened Israpundit.

   Why is this research important.? It does a number of things. It teaches people about how Islam has operated in the Balkans. It has taught that the Balkans were a central project in the whole Islam arsenal.

   It has zeroed in on the weakness and political duplicity of George Bush. It has exposed the idiot mumblings of Bush on the morning after 9-11 about Islam being a religion of peace.

   We have clear evidence that Izetbegovic was Bin Laden’s man and that Bin Laden was a visitor to the Balkans. Izetbegovic is the evil force which Oliver Kamm has projected as a moderate and who the cronies of Kamm at Harrys Place have tried to keep hidden and locked away.

   And this is just the start because we also are finding our feet.

   Bill Narvey is very like Kamm in fact. Kamm we have seen is very adept at this character assasination. In fact every argument of Kamm you can safely say begins with a bit of character assasination.

   You can, anybody can, pick up on some of these contributions which were way off the mark. But so what! The essence, especially the material from Nathan and Shlomo was like gold dust!

   Bill Narvey was also in a similar way taking my articles and comments on Israpundit, not taking the essence of what I was saying, and I was saying a lot, pinpricking on unsubstantial issues, asking me for explanations. The whole project of Narvey was one of total hostility. I just could not be bothered answering his wierd questions because his questions were leading nowhere. I was right and his hostility towards the Serbs has now burst out for the whole world to see.

   The character assasination in the above wild comments by Bill Narvey takes this form. He says that those of us raising these issues are separate from the Jewish struggle.

   Mind you I will grant Bill Narvey this, there were some weird characters, I remember a fellow called Yoram, an opportunist, a big-mouth and a really reactionary individual who I can very easily forget.

   But tell me the national movement who does not have his equal and worse.

   But the character assasination of Narvey takes the form that we are using Israpundit and using the Jewish issue. This is the real slander.

   For years I have fought on Israpundit around the concept that for Jews to save themselves they must understand what went on in Yugoslavia. And I hit a stone wall. I did research on Herzl, I did research on the early Jewish leaders of Israel, I did research on the problems of Marxism and the Jews, I did my most important research on Leon Trotsky’s changing position towards the issue of the Jewish Homeland and Jewish nationhood. I did all that and I kept returning to the lessons of Yugoslavia. As I said if the Jews do not learn it they will be beaten.

   There is another point, a kind of a humanist point, a point concerning basic human decency and loyalty, which is a terribly important part of being human. It is the following:

   Because of research mainly by Jared I found out that the Serbs, and the Romany, and the Gays or Homosexuals, were the real brothers of the Jews in adversity against the Nazis. I would add to that the disabled.

   This is why I am so disturbed by Mr Narvey’s position. He is part of that Jewish section who stabbed the Serbs in the back in the 90s. It is such a non-Jewish thing to do. Jews are the people who more than anybody know who their friends are.

   They owe it to the Serbs and the Serbs owe it to them. Similarly the Homosexuals. Similary the disabled. Similarly the Romany.

   The Serb hatred of the 90s which I saw in London gives us a window into understanding what Jews faced and face. But it was not the same as Jew hatred. That i.e. Jew Hatred is in a different category.

   Ted Belham and ourselves form a unity. Same with Joseph Alexander Norland. The unity is to prevent a Holocaust again, if we can, and we must. Inside this unity the political struggle involves conflict. Bill Narvey seems not to understand this unity and conflict of opposites in the struggle for political clarity. On a human level he should apologise to these wonderful researchers who have taught us all so much. If he does not do that it will be an absolute disgrace.

   I will not write again on this. For me this issue is over. My time is very limited.

2. In re-reading the above I am struck by how diffficult it is to get ideas across and how much room there is for misinterpretation.

   The concept of “Principle” above is such.

   Let me clarify what I mean in the above like this.

   I was attracted to the Jewish movement out of principles. I questioned the Neo-Left on their hypocritical attitude to the Holocaust and to Israel. I did so because I am a principled person, as is Jared, Joseph and all the rest.

   But it was these same principles, my principled make-up, wherever and however I have come by it, probably from my Irish rural background, that led me to very quickly seek an understanding of the propaganda against the Serbs.

   Principles are very, very important in human personal and political life.

3. The difference which I have with Ted, and to a certain extent with all of the Jewish blogs that I know of, is this:

   I believe that it is necessary and urgent to create in every country in the world a new leadership, call it what you like – a revolutionary type party, an organization based on a theory and practice, a group of committed people tied together through political understanding of the situation – which will be a match for and overcome anti-Semitism.

   If you understand the situation in many of these countries, where the ISM and others have been allowed to run riot, as in Ireland, you will understand a new leadership must be made up of very principled and sound people.

   But because these people are principled they will not be able to turn their back on dishonesty and oppression in any corner of humanity.

   That essentially is the difference.

   That in effect in a nutshell is the difference with Mr Narvey and to a much lesser extent with Ted and Randy. I emphasise much lesser.

   The political approach of the single issue has been a trap and always will be a trap.

   How you can hope to understand what is happening to Israel, and in the Middle East, by simply limiting yourself to studying only this, is a non-starter. It is a totally bankrupt approach.

   Also it is an absolute fact that many, many Jews on Israpundit have understood very well that the research produced on the site by people over the past weeks has been an absolute bonus. And as indeed stated so often here, one person even suggesting a book on this be written. It has helped Jews to understand and to go deeper into the problems that they as Jews face.

   Ted saw this too. Then he seemed to think that this conflicts with his idea of his site as a single issue mechanism. So the shutters came down.

   Even yesterday he opined that he “allowed” me to write articles on the issue. Wrong attitude Ted! You should as editor be demanding that I write articles and be seeking more. That is the difference. And a very important difference between us.

   The issue despite what the quite pathetic and petty Bill Narvey thinks is not that I or we are seeking desperately for a place to post this material. Believe me, given present technology, I can have a brand new, spanking sparkling website up and running inside days. But what would that prove other than that technology is a whizz.

   I can do that and will eventually do that but that is an evasion and a personal type attack on Serbian people here thrown up by Mr Narvey.

   The issue is how Jewish people like Ted understand how it is possible to save Israel from anti-Semitism.

   That is why and I am sure others post on Israpundit.

   Israpundit has a long tradition of allowing very differing views on its pages. I have always said that this represents the very best of the Jewish tradition. Mr Narvey seeks to destroy this.

   On the issue of leadership which I started with:

   It is not about having parties, it is about having parties based on PRINCIPLE, and I have seen little principle coming from American and Canadian Jews towards the Serbs over the past 20 years. Many of these American Jewish organizations have betrayed the Serbs and so they have betrayed the Jews. Mr Narvey represents that here on Israpundit. Ted is to be commended because he has begun a change. But only a beginning.

   I am committed personally to building a revolutionary organization in Ireland that will destroy the anti-Semites. It will be based on principle and the wiping out of Yugoslavia over 20 years or so is right there at the centre.

   There can be no argument over issues of principle!

   I say

   No to single issue politics!
   Fight for principle inside the Jewish movement!

4. In the above at the end I did not make myself clear enough. This idea of “focus” and of Israpundit being a Jewish site. That is NOT an issue for anybody. It is really a straw man thrown up by Mr Narvey in defence of certain interests of which I am not clear as yet, but certainly centre around Lieberman and Lantos.

   Mr Narvey can continue to ramble on in Israpundit. I personally could not care less.

   Sooner or later real Jewish people will get tired of his ramblings and will take action themselves.

   You can see in the above that Mr Narvey is NOT in agreement with Ted on the issue of Yugoslavia.

   Mr Narvey is a very arrogant person. In effect he is telling people who are very devoted to the Jewish people to clear off and leave the Israpundit site to himself. Fat chance!

   I will of course write more on this!

5. Shlomo

   I see above that you ask Bill Narvey to get a reality check. No chance of that Shlomo. No chance at all.

   I first cottoned onto Bill Narvey about a month ago.

   I expressed some disagreement on some point or other, I forget now which. But it was the answer and the way it was expressed that floored me.

   He came out like a boxer in the ring and started talking about me better having my “bullets sharpened” if I was going to take him, the “great” Bill Narvey on in a duel. It was out of character with his long and incessant comments on Israpundit which always to me seem to never develop anything just state the obvious.

   So I find what he has to say of little importance.

   I reaslly do not waste valuable time on Mr Narvey and neither should you Shlomo.

   It is the position of Ted which I now focus on because Ted better represents the real quandary that faces Israel and faces Jews.

   I myself do not like the word “advocacy”. There is a ring of the smug and the hypocritical about this. Or can be.

   If you want “advocacy” in Ireland go to the “Irish Friends of Israel”. There you will find them “advocating” for Israel and supporting the creation of a Palestinian State. Got my point! Words can creat a subterfuge.

   Shlomo, do not worry too much about Mr Narvey.

   Take myself. I go back a long time with both Ted and Joseph.

   I do not call myself an “advocate”, what a legalese term.

   I actually call myself by my own name and I am Irish.

   But I have joined the Jewish struggle out of principle. I will not change these principles.

   The same principles have brought me to a defence of the Serbs.

   I have seen at first hand both Serb hatred and Jew hatred. Of the two Jew hatred in the human race is the deeper and the most vital to contend with.

   Israpundit must be and is a Jewish site.

   Do not worry about Mr Narvey. That is NOT the issue here.

6. “All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.”
   —Arthur Schopenhauer

   “In a time of universal deceit – telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”

   “Early in life I had noticed that no event is ever correctly reported in a newspaper.”

   “If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”

   – George Orwell

   Some insight on so-called “experts” and “public opinion”….

   “In 1921 General Billy Mitchell said that air power could sink any ship afloat—and demonstrated it to the world by sinking the world’s largest captured German battleship, three other obsolete battleships, a destroyer and an armored cruiser. Furious, military leaders transferred him to Hawaii. He then prepared a report that stated the Japanese were developing an air force that would launch a sneak attack on Pearl Harbor. His boss didn’t read the report for two years, and Mitchell was demoted to colonel. In 1925 all crewmen perished when an obsolete Navy dirigible and seaplane were lost in flight. Mitchell angrily denounced his superiors for incompetence, criminal negligence, and ‘almost treasonable negligence of our national defense.’ He was court martialled, found guilty and his military career was over. Billy Mitchell died in 1936 with no United States Air Force in sight.

   On December 7, 1941 the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, and, led by one of the world’s most powerful air forces, roamed freely over the Philippines and Southeast Asia, killing or capturing over 400,000 Allied troops. Shocked into action, America then took a year to fulfill General Billy Mitchell’s dream: the American victory at the Battle of Midway proved to military leaders once and for all that air power could destroy any naval armada—but it was a terrible lesson that cost hundreds of thousands of American lives.

   The U.S. government refused to exonerate General Billy Mitchell by overturning his court marshal, but in 1946 President Truman did award him a posthumous medal.” —biographical sketch, General Billy Mitchell

   “A completely idiotic idea. On behalf of science…Edison’s (new electric light bulb) is a fraud upon the public.” —Many professors and scientists of Edison’s time, including Professor Henry Morton and Sir William Preece, British engineer.

   “This ‘telephone’ has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us.” —Western Union, internal memo, 1876

   “It is scientifically impossible for machines to fly.” —The Scientific American, the U.S. Army, The New York Times, The New York Herald, among many other “experts.”

   “Airplanes are interesting toys but of no military value.” —Marshall Ferdinand Foch, Professor of Strategy, Ecole Superieure de Guerre.

   “Professor Goddard does not know the relation between action and reaction and the need to have something better than a vacuum against which to react. He seems to lack the basic knowledge ladled out daily in high schools.” —New York Times editorial attacking Robert Goddard’s revolutionary rocket work, 1921. Decades after men landed on the moon and Goddard was dead, the Times published an apology.

   “The wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?” —David Sarnoff’s business partners in response to his urgings to invest in the radio in the 1920s.

   “Who the hell wants to hear actors talk?” —Harry M. Warner, Warner Bros., 1927.

   “I think there is a world market for maybe five computers.” —Thomas Watson, Chairman IBM, 1943.

   “There is no reason for any individuals to have a computer in their home.” —Ken Olson, founder, Digital Equipment Corp., 1977.

   Ah yes……the so-called MSM media “opinion makers” which Narvey has admitted here on Israpundit are merely there “to assist the public in getting at the truth” (but of course this implies that they are not there to tell outright lies to the public)……

   Quite frankly, Mr. Narvey, I could care less what the so-called “world” (i.e., so-called “public opinion” created by these so-called “experts” and MSM media pundits whom you put such faith and trust in, say about Israel/Jews and/or Serbia/Serbs in a negative,pejorative,disparaging manner….what counts is what we as ordinary hard working people can do to get the truth out and expose their lies. Israpundit is such a forum for educating both Jews and Gentiles and exposing the corruption and lies of Western governments
   and media: whetehr it is against Israel and Jews or Serbian and Serbs: the link is these Western governments + media supporting Islamofascism + neo-Nazism. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD.

   I have already explained why the two issues are inseparable and you can ignore and/or deny all of that, go ahead and call me an “obsessive compulsive” “pro-Serb extremist”, “selfish”…..yadda,yadda,yadda….insults until the cows come home (and presumably anyone else whom holds the same position (like Yohanan Ramati and Yossef Bodansky)whom you presumably would also label as “pro-Serb extremist” + “obsessive compulsive” since they hold precisely the same position that I do.

   I am not a “pro-Serb” advocate as you spuriously and fallaciously claim. I am a pro-TRUTH advocate. You can insult me all you like and tell me to shut up and get the hell out of here, until you are blue-purple in the face but believe me it won’t work.

   I haven’t seen any posts by Pearlstein since you viciously attacked that young kid here several weeks back. I can only speculate here, but I strongly suspect that you frightened him off Israpundit with your Kamm-like tirade of insults + anger.Your so-called “reasons” given to Pearlstein at the time to basically buzz off Israpundit and “get the hell out of here without further ado” as you are telling Felix Quigley and myself now, were completely spurious, specious, hollow and do not stand up to any kind of close scrutiny or critical examination. All you have is plenty of OPINION,OPINION,OPINION, but ZERO facts and documented evidence to back up your own arguments.

   I am not so easily intimidated by you as that young kid Pearlstein was. Your vicious attack against me doesn’t phase me or intimidate me in the slightest.

   Incidentally, speaking of “getting the hell out of here without further ado” and starting up another blog which we all supposedly “aren’t even capable of that” according to you, why don’t you start your own blog extolling the virtues of Kamm, Lantos and Lieberman, since you firmly believe that they are all so lily-white “pro-Israel” angels beyond any reproach? Is this the Kamm+Lieberman+Lantos fan club you are promoting +advocating here or is it a discussion board for exposing topics related to Western sponsorship of Islamofascism both in and outside Israel + Western government corruption + lies, and what you say the MSM already does for us, namely, “getting at the truth” so that presumably, we need not worry or be concerned about the truth already being promoted in the “world” as you call it?

   Get a grip Narvey and calm down. There is plenty of evidence against Kamm, Lantos, Lieberman of de facto support – if not de jure -for Izetbegovic and/or the KLA. Lieberman and Lantos are evn on the public record as having supported House Congressional resolutions calling for the arming of the Islamofascist terrorist KLA by the United states government! (You seem to prefer to pretend that this never happened)

   Oh and by the way, that “smoking gun” you were after that you claim doesn’t exist: the US State Department all the way back in February 1998 classified the KLA as “without any question a terrorist group” and yet at the end of April, 1999, well over a full year later, here is what your favorite, Liberman, whom you assume to be lily-white+beyond reproach, said about the Islamofascist KLA, (responsible for ethnically cleansing the entire Jewish community of Kosovo in a “Kristallnacht” type pogrom) as quoted by the Washington Post:

   “The United States of America and the Kosovo Liberation Army stand for the same human values and the principles . . . Fighting for the KLA is fighting for human rights and American values.” (Washington Post, Apr. 28, 1999)

   http://antiwar.com/orig/jatras.php?articleid=1499

   “…the Clinton Administration’s then-special envoy for Kosovo, Robert Gelbard, had little difficulty in condemning the KLA (also known by its Albanian initials, UCK) in terms comparable to those he used for Serbian police repression:

   ” ‘The violence we have seen growing is incredibly dangerous,’ Gelbard said. He criticized violence ‘promulgated by the (Serb) police’ and condemned the actions of an ethnic Albanian underground group Kosovo Liberation Army (UCK) which has claimed responsibility for a series of attacks on Serb targets. ‘We condemn very strongly terrorist actions in Kosovo. The UCK is, without any questions, a terrorist group,’ Gelbard said.” [Agence France Presse, 2/23/98]

   http://www.kosovo.net/rpc.html

   http://www.senate.gov/~rpc/releases/1999/fr033199.htm

   http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/fr033199.htm

   The information that the KLA was an islamic fascist Nazi TERRORIST GROUP was ALREADY in the PUBLIC DOMAIN many years before 1999 when the KLA came into prominence on the nightly news.

   It gets WORSE. Yossef Bodansky, of the House Republican Congressional Task Force on Unconventional Warfare and Terrorism made many PUBLIC reports and analyses dating back to 1992 on who Izetbegovic and what the KLA REALLY was: A TERRORIST GROUP according to Bodansky, in his 1995 book “Some Call it Peace: Waiting for War In The Balkans”. Bodansky made many, many reports for Congress from 1992 onwards. Every House Congressional member was privy to the facts about Izetbegovic and the KLA being Islamofascists/Nazis.

   READ Bodansky’s reports on Izetbegovic + the KLA below:

   http://www.balkan-archive.org.yu/politics/papers/civil_war/iran_springboard.html

   http://members.tripod.com/Balkania/resources/geostrategy/bodansky_peace/index.html

   THIS WAS ALL IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN FOR MANY YEARS. HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY SAY THAT THEY DID NOT KNOW AND HAD “THE WOOL PULLED OVER THEIR EYES”?!

   Get a reality check, Mr. Narvey.

   JOE LIEBERMAN – APOLOGIST FOR THE FASCIST KLA
   by Jared Israel and Eric Garris (Written 20 August 2000, not posted until 23 May 2001)

   “[The] United States of America and the Kosovo Liberation Army stand for the same human values and principles … Fighting for the KLA is fighting for human rights and American values.” (Sen. Lieberman quoted in the ‘Washington Post,’ April 28, 1999)
   

   In April, 1999, during the NATO aggression against Yugoslavia, Senators Joe Lieberman (Democrat) and John McCain (Republican) proposed legislation to arm the so-called Kosovo Liberation Army, or KLA. This was the “Kosova Self-Defense Act.” We have posted the text of the statement Lieberman made at the time below.

   Here are a few observations that may assist in putting Joe Lieberman’s actions in perspective.

   There is virtually no doubt that at the time Lieberman was calling for a law to arm the KLA, the US was already covertly providing arms and training to that secessionist-terrorist group. As early as the fall of 1998 we know that the Kosovo Verification Mission was setting up tactical liaison with and providing training for the KLA (1), all under the guidance of the experienced U.S. death-squad-liaison expert, William Walker. (2)

   In February a Bosnian Islamist daily published the following:

   “TRAINING OF KLA MEMBERS IN US?

   “According to Tirana daily newspapers, the Albanian Minister of Foreign Affairs Paskal Milo said that KLA members will be trained in the US. During his meeting with US Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, Milo was informed that Albanian guerrilla members from Kosovo would be sent to the US for training. Milo added that this was a promise, which Albright gave him personally.” (‘NEVNI AVAZ’ or ‘Daily Voice,’ pro-Islamist Sarajevo daily, 26 Feb 1999)

   Does a promise, apparently made by US Secretary of State Madeleine Albright in February, 1999, to openly train the KLA contradict our assertion that the US was already covertly training the KLA long before February?

   No, because her promise was not logistic, it was political. Albright was promising to take military training, which was already going on, and bring it out of the shadows, to flaunt Washington’s right to train the KLA, that is its right to violate International Law in the form of the Helsinki Final Act which requires governments:

   “To refrain from any use of armed forces inconsistent with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations and the provisions of the Declaration on Principles Guiding Relations between Participating States, against another participating State, in particular from invasion of or attack on its territory.

   “To refrain from any manifestation of force for the purpose of inducing another participating State to renounce the full exercise of its sovereign rights.”
   Why did training the KLA violate the Helsinki Act?

   1) In February, 1999, the US was not at war with Yugoslavia.

   2) In February, 1999, Albright described Kosovo as “a region of Yugoslavia about the size of Connecticut.” Thus she acknowledged that it was Yugoslav sovereign territory.

   3) In February, 1999, Albright called the KLA a “sometimes brutal and indiscriminate” secessionist group devoted to a “simple answer to the tragedy of Kosovo: independence from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.” Again: Kosovo was Yugoslav territory. (Quotes are from “Madeleine Albright delivers remarks on Kosovo at the Institute of Peace,” Feb. 4, 1999)

   For the US to train the KLA secretly meant therefore that it was secretly violating national sovereignty, the cornerstone of international law. But for the US to move to openly train the KLA was to uphold the US government’s right to openly and flagrantly violate national sovereignty, the cornerstone of international law.

   In a revealing comment she made in February, Albright described how the ‘international community’ (led by the US) would respond if the KLA didn’t cooperate with US wishes:

   “And if the Kosovars [i.e., the KLA] crater this, it is obviously more complicated because there’s not one any center, but they will lose the support of the international community and find themselves increasingly isolated and they can’t operate without the community…(‘ABC this Week,’ Feb. 7. 1999, our emphasis)

   How could the KLA “lose the support of the international community,” that is, the U.S. and its allies, without whom the KLA “cannot operate” – how could it lose that support unless it had the support to lose?

   Secretary of State Albright was admitting that it was the U.S. government and its allies who made it possible for the KLA to “operate” – that is, to conduct terrorist attacks on Yugoslavia, a sovereign nation. And mind you, all this was weeks before the so-called failure of the so-called negotiations at Rambouillet.

   Significance of Lieberman’s ‘Arm-the-KLA’ Resolution

   As Madeline Albright’s remarks indicate, the KLA did not need the “Kosova Self-Defense Act” to get U.S. weapons, because “the international community” was already making sure the KLA got enough weapons to “operate.”

   Rather, the Act had two purposes. First, to get the US Senate to endorse a crime of war – the training of a terrorist group – and second to provide a focus for publicity aimed at winning the public to perceive the KLA fascists as representatives of an oppressed nation deserving popular support.

   Lieberman referred to the KLA as “Kosovan military forces” at a time (April 9, 1999) when the KLA was largely isolated, even among secessionist-minded Albanians. And note, the phrase “Kosovan military forces” suggests there is some legitimate nation called “Kosova,” though no such place has ever existed except perhaps as a Nazi puppet state during World War II. (3) Indeed, the word “Kosova” has no meaning in either the Serbo-Croatian or Albanian languages. (5)

   And so this Lieberman, who makes a public spectacle of his religious beliefs, who pontificates from a place higher than Morality, this Lieberman fronts for the KLA who are the self-proclaimed heirs to the Balli Kombëtar, the World War II Albanian fascists (3). This Lieberman, who flaunts his Jewishness as if it were a theme park, to the disgust of many Jews, including the writers of this article, this Lieberman fronts for the descendents of the very people who murdered nearly every Jew in Kosovo.

   Some Jews did survive the KLA’s Nazi ancestors. Here’s how: the Kosovo Albanian fascists dutifully rounded up Jews and shipped them off to Nazi death camps. But one of the trains took a wrong turn, got stuck, and was discovered by the invading Soviet Red Army. They were freed. Some left Kosovo. Others rebuilt their shattered lives.

   But please note: since being put in power by NATO and the UN, Senator Lieberman’s beloved KLA has driven from Kosovo those Jews who managed not to be killed by the Balli Kombëtar during W.W. II, driven them out along with their descendents. That is, his KLA has completed the job of producing a judenfrei ‘KosovA.’

   http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/garris/duringthe.htm

7. Ted,

   There is no disputing that Israel is being demonized.

   Unless and until the pro-Serb advocates can get the world, by their evidence to at least begin to turn heads around to see that it was the Serbs and not the Muslims who were the aggressors and the ones engaged in a genocidal war, one cannot say with conviction that there is a parallel between the demonizing of the Serbs and the demonizing of Israel.

   I have no difficulty with the pro-Serb advocates ultimately getting their evidence before the court of public opinion to at least have a chance at revealing their truths, especially if portraying the Serbs as the villains was a monstrous lie. In fact, I hope that what they say is true and that they can set history straight on the matter.

   Pro-Serb advocates however in spite of their apparent great efforts have not even gotten to first base in this regard. They have however by their excesses and extreme views expressed on Israpundit, damaged their own credibility and Israpundit’s as well.

   I am very much against the way the pro-Serb advocates are going about getting their views across and certainly with their having used and abused Israpundit as I have previously noted.

   I agree with your second point about NATO, but even without referencing NATO’s role in Yugoslavia, there is more than enough evidence as to why Israel must be very wary of any role that NATO and UNIFIL might play in Israeli affairs. Already, UNIFIL has entered south Lebanon and has created a very big problem for Israel should Hezbollah attack again.

   Yes we talk about Israel being on the forefront of only one of many battlegrounds against radical Islam. Certainly America does, though often they do not act like it. We would like the West to agree with that take and that is part of what pro-Israel advocacy is about.

   As stated before, there is only a parallel with Kosovo that the world will see if the pro-Serb advocates are not only correct in their take on history, but they can get the rest of the world to see that.

   It is unnecessary to reference the Balkan wars and the pro-Serb position that it was the Muslims, previously in league with the Nazis and then in league with Islamofacists to destroy the infidel Serbs, to find other non controversial examples that the world does accept and which point to the multifaceted nature of Islamofacism and the many war fronts it is operating on.

8. shlomo, There is no contradiction in the two statements of mine you put in juxtaposition. They can be reconciled if they are understood in context to each other.

   My 2 comments shlomo quoted,

   Today…..:

   I sympathize with Serbia but this forum loses focus if it goes to many directions. The Serbs have been greatly wronged, but they along with the people who have the burden to help must get organized and get their story out. Israpundit will lose effectiveness without focus. There are many causes today that need and deserve attention but we all must choose our calling because as much as many of us would like to, you cannot do them all, at least not effectively.

   ….Six weeks ago:……

   Anyone who visits Israpundit will notice there is much discussion of NATO’s intervention against the Serbs in 1999. This may seem odd at first glance to those who are unaware of what actually took place in the former Yugoslavia during that time but it is highly relevant to the issues discussed here, to current world affairs, and may I add, it indicates that Israpundit readers are better informed than the general public and ahead of the curve on international developments.

   https://www.israpundit.org/2006/?p=3862#comments

   (comment 2)

   What is happening here at Israpundit to have caused this change in attitudes on the part of Ted and Randy in the space of a mere six weeks is grave cause for concern……

   What we are talking about here is FOCUS. This site centers around the Israeli cause, even so there is some space for discussions of other matters especially as they relate to Israel and the Jewish people in context of the world today.

   There can be a relating with other things, but there must be limits or Isrupundit is diverted from what it was created to be.

   I believe our discussions on Serbia were productive and enlightening but I also believe there is only a certain extent to which related issues can be meshed with the focus here before they become dominative and steer the site into too many different directions. In order to be effective there must be focus.

   What we are talking about here is focus and the degree of involvement in other issues, not a complete rejection of other issues — I can stand by both statements.

9. I believe it is relevant for the reason that there is a parallel between how Serbia was demonized and how Israel is being demonized. Although we know how undair the world and media is to Israel without the serb example, it reinforces our acceptance of just how malicious the world is.

   Secondly, as a result of seeing the lengths NATO has gone to destroy Yugoslavia, we are forewarned about the dangers of allowing NATO or UNIFIL into Gaza.

   Thirdly, an Islamofascist state is being created in Europe. We talk about how Israel is in the forefront of the battle against Islamofascism and expect the world to side with us. We must remember, so is Kosovo.

   So I am not really engaging in pro-Serbian advocacy at all.

10. Ted, I must respectfully disagree with you. The Serb matter has absolutely no place in pro-Israel advocacy.

    Presently the vast majority of the world believe, rightly or wrongly that the Serbs were engaged in a genocidal war against the Bosnian Muslims.

    That is a fact that must be accepted. With that, should pro-Israel advocacy include pro-Serb advocacy as even a small part of its advocacy, pro-Israel advocacy that already labours and struggles against a wave of anti-Israel resentment and anti-Semitism, will open itself and almost certainly all Jews up to the charge that Israel and Jews show their true evil colors by supporting the conventionally believed Serbian genocide of Bosnian Muslims and from there that Israel and Jews really intend to commit genocide against Palestinians and other Muslims.

    To incorporate pro-Serb advocacy into pro-Israel advocacy risks that such move would very likely amount to a huge self inflicted wound that would only further add to the difficulties pro-Israel/Jewish advocates have in getting their message across to and accepted by the public at large and nations’ leaders.

    Pro-Israel advocacy simply cannot afford to take that risk.

11. I appreciate the strong defense that Bill has mounted. I have attempted to moderate the excesses of the pro-Serb group and to lessen the avalanche of material they have posted. It got out of proportion by a long shot and I wanted to reign it in.

    They have a case to be made and have made it here. Now it is time to return to pro-Israel advocacy of which the Serbian matter is a small part only.

12. My last several sentences objecting to pro-Serb advocates suggested it was only because you are using Israpundit to disseminate your historical references and proof that it was the Muslims and not the Serbs who were the villains in the Balkan – Serb – Muslim wars. That is not so. I have no objection to your efforts to get your version of history out, but because of the lengths you have gone to do so on Israpundit, I strongly object to your doing it here on Israpundit any longer.

    In the context for the whole of my comment and my previous comments, I am objecting to your usuing Israpundit:

    1. To advocate that because you believe your historical research demonstrates that during WWII, Serbs stood against the Nazis and aided Jews as best they could, that Jews all over are indebted to the Serbs and must satisfy that debt by including pro-Serb advocacy as part of its pro-Israel advocacy.

    I disagree because even assuming you are absolutely right about the Serbs having stood against the Nazis in WWII and aided Jews (of which there is evidence of course), there are other ways Jews can come to the aid of Serbs without making pro-Serb advocacy part of pro-Israel advocacy.

    Those alternate courses of support have been overlooked by the pro-Serb advocates who have used Israpundit.

    I have explained in detail in a number of my other postings as to why pro-Serb advocacy, even if the history pro-Serb advocates are putting forth is correct, should not be part of pro-Israel advocacy.

    2. Because not only are the pro-Serb advocates who have used Israpundit to get their message across obsessive about their version of history, they react in anger and resort to name calling, put downs and extremist language to attack anyone who disagrees with their agenda to use Israpundit as their staging ground to disseminate their version of history. Those attacks lack balance, perspective and civility and fall into the extremist expressions of opinion that countenance no contrary view.

    3. Because they have used Israpundit to launch slanderous attacks on a number of people known for being pro-Israel.

    If the pro-Serb advocates are correct in any way that Lieberman, Lantos, Kamm and others were helpful in creating the alleged monstrous lie that has portrayed the Serbs and not the Bosnian Muslims as the evil villains and/or have given aid to the Bosnian Muslims in their alleged genocidal rampage against the Serbs, it is inconceivable, in the absence of incontrovertible smoking gun evidence (which I contend you do not have) that these people would have done so wittingly.

    The evidence these pro-Serb advocates bring forward is that certain powerful people were able to create and have managed to sustain the lie by conning people into believing it. If the pro-Serb advocates are correct in that, Lieberman, Lantos and Kamm given what they have stood for could hardly be expected to be within the inner circle of these powerful people who created and have sustained the alleged lie, so they must be amongst those who had the wool pulled over their eyes.

    I am objecting to Israpundit having been used for their own selfish and obsessive compulsive purposes by pro-Serb advocates to launch their slander attacks accusing the people they have of being complicit with the Bosnian Muslims in committing alleged genocide against the Serbs. That has not furthered the interests of pro-Serb advocacy at all, but it has harmed Israpundit.

    4. I am urging pro-Serb advocates to therefore find another forum or start their own forum to get their version of the Balkan – Serb – Bosnian Muslim war out into the public. I am all for getting the truth out in the open, but urge them to launch their efforts from elsewhere.

    I trust this better clarifies why I object to pro-Serb advocacy not being part of pro-Irael advocacy, why I object to pro-Serb advocates continuing to use and abuse Israpundit as they have and why I urge them to find another forum or create their own web blog to get their version of history out before the public. If pro-Serb adovcates want to continue their slander campaign against certain people, let them do so, but from their own web blog.

13. Shlomo and pro-Serb advocates,

    This is a pro-Israel blog that to be successful must retain its focus.

    One does not need to spend one moment on the Balkan Serb – Muslim wars, nor even take everything you and others say as gospel about the Serbs having been wronged in order to understand just what is going on in the Muslim Middle East, the Israel – Palestinian/Arab conflict and just how Westerners are seeking to satisfy their own interests, by getting Israel to pay a great deal of the freight for them by having Israel reach a two state peace deal with the Palestinians.

    You and your fellow pro-Serb advocates however are seeking to take over this blog as your own home base to spread your versions of history and advocate your views as regards the Serbs. You and others have become completely obsessed in seeking to disseminate your truths and convince all readers of Israpundit to your views.

    Should someone disagree with you and your fellow pro-Serb advocates, either on your versions of Serb -Muslim history or as in my case, that Israpundit must not allow itself to become a forum for advocating for Serbian justice that not even the Serbs are behind, your fellow pro-Serb advocates have gone ballistic with rancourous and specious condemnations and insults. That is real high class on the part of you pro-Serb advocates.

    Worse still, you are using Israpundit as your own pulpit to engage in character assassination of Senator Joe Lieberman, Congressman Tom Lantos, Oliver Kamm and anyone else who disagrees with you. What pro-Serb advocates on Israpundit have alleged in this regard, probably does qualify as slander, just as Kamm has alleged.

    Now you say:

    Oliver Kamm himself (who just the other week calls us “… beyond conventional measures of the xenophobic lunatic fringe”)have pushed us around (both with legal threats and a highly effective smear campaign) and have won the battle to prevent the truth from getting out…..

    Yes Kamm went into a frantic, almost out of control tirade about the crap pile of accusations pro-Serb advocates hurled at him via Israpundit. If Kamm is guilty of anything, it is blowing his reputed cool by going into an extremist and unfair rant against Israpundit, Ted Belman and those who contribute to Israpundit. Then again, Kamm was responding to the most heinous accusations by a bunch of loud mouthed pro-Serb advocacy extremists.

    While I am not part of your inner circle, definitely don’t want to be associated at all with your circle and even spoke out against the extremist views and vile accusations made against a number of noted persons inlcuding Kamm, I did feel bad. I felt bad for Israpundit being subjected to such a scathing attack brought on by you pro-Serb advocates and also felt that attack personally. I have been a strong supporter of and contributor to Israpundit for the past two years.

    I note that Kamm’s angry reaction hasn’t stopped you and your fellow pro-Serb advocates from continuing to fill these pages with more of your pro-Serb advocacy, extremist views and slanderous comments regarding Kamm and others. You just can’t stop yourselves can you? That is what a selfish, obsessive compulsive personality will do to people.

    I will let Ted speak for himself, but in my view you and your fellow pro-Serb advocates have seriously damaged Israpundit’s place and reputation in internet pro-Israel advocacy.

    You have used and insist as a matter of your right to continue to use Israpundit to pursue your own selfish, obsessive and compulsive needs to get your truths out, because you can’t even get to first base to get your historical truths out anywhere else, let alone before the most important place, being the court of public opinion.

    You have exposed Israpundit, Ted Belman and all other contributors to this blog to accusations as being a lunatic fringe pro-Israel advocacy blog and worse. You have harmed Israpundit’s reputation and credibility in the eyes of other pro-Israel advocacy blogs and add to that the credibility and good names of a great many Israpundit contributors.

    To you Shlomo and all the other pro-Serb extremist advocates who have selfishly used and abused Israpundit and its contributors for your own selfish extremist interests, I suggest you start up your own blog to spew out your versions of history, if you are even capable of doing that.

    One way or another, my position is that you and your fellow pro-Serb advocates have taken advantage of Israpundit far too long.

    If you are capable of just one rational moment, get past your selfish obsessive compulsion, show some regard and respect for Israpudit, Ted Belman and other Israpundit supporters by getting the hell out of here without further ado.

14. Ted…..

    this is absolute dynamite!: have a listen to these radio broadcasts on the Nazi origins of Hamas,Fatah/PLO,Hezbollah + Alija Izetbegovic’s SDA + Albanian KLA + Franjo Tudjman’s & Stjepan Mesic’s pro-Ustasha Croatian HDZ fascist party.

    You will need the “Realplayer” program to listen:…..

    http://wfmu.org/listen.ram?show=8135

    http://wfmu.org/listen.ram?show=1092

    http://wfmu.org/listen.ram?show=20462 (for this broadcast advance to the 29 minute mark in your “Realplayer” program…)

    Further explosive programs exposing the Nazi SS link to Islamofascism available at:

    http://wfmu.org/playlists/DX

15. Ted….

    Yes, I am aware of those excellent, heavily documented and superbly written articles by yourself and Felix.Thank you for re-posting the links to them here.

    Regarding my assumption that you had from today, changed your mind: it is clear from your comments above I should not have jumped to such conclusions. My apologies…..

    Reading between the lines in comment 12 it appeared as if you had changed your mind and it also appeared that Randy was in full agreement that Israpundit should abandon the issue as it was somehow taking away from our foucus on the fate of Israel (which would certainly be a grave mistake as elucidated by Yohanan Ramati‘s pivotal watershed analyses of the inextricable links between the two issues during the early to mid-90’s in New York’s “Midstream – A Monthly Jewish Review” magazine).

    Thanks for clearing that up, Ted……much appreciated……

16. There has not been a change of attitude. If anything I far better understand what happened to Serbia and how now than I did then. I posted two impoortant articles after the decision of the ICC. “Genocide” and its “proof”. and Is war “genocide”?.

    Also I permitted Felic to post on Feb 28th, This phoney Srebrenica “Massacre” will not go away and on March 3rd, The Kammites seek to close the Srebrenica hoax but can never succeed and on Mar 4th, The Kammites on Harrys Place…a really reactionary force and on Mar 5th, What Kamm and people like him are hiding about Islam in Bosnia

    So it is wrong to say I have dropped the issue or changed my mind.

17. Today…..:

    I sympathize with Serbia but this forum loses focus if it goes to many directions. The Serbs have been greatly wronged, but they along with the people who have the burden to help must get organized and get their story out. Israpundit will lose effectiveness without focus. There are many causes today that need and deserve attention but we all must choose our calling because as much as many of us would like to, you cannot do them all, at least not effectively.

    ….Six weeks ago:……

    Anyone who visits Israpundit will notice there is much discussion of NATO’s intervention against the Serbs in 1999. This may seem odd at first glance to those who are unaware of what actually took place in the former Yugoslavia during that time but it is highly relevant to the issues discussed here, to current world affairs, and may I add, it indicates that Israpundit readers are better informed than the general public and ahead of the curve on international developments.

    https://www.israpundit.org/2006/?p=3862#comments (comment 2)

    What is happening here at Israpundit to have caused this change in attitudes on the part of Ted and Randy in the space of a mere six weeks is grave cause for concern……

    It appears the Kamm-ites at British website “Harry’s Place” and indeed Oliver Kamm himself (who just the other week calls us “… beyond conventional measures of the xenophobic lunatic fringe”)have pushed us around (both with legal threats and a highly effective smear campaign) and have won the battle to prevent the truth from getting out…..

    We are NOT losing focus if we bring to the attention of our fellow Jews and Gentile pro-Israel advocates what happened to Serbia-Yugoslavia and the Serbs at the hands of NATO, the EU and the US government . ON THE CONTRARY, as it relates directly and indirectly in many different inextricably linked ways with the fate of Israel as was repeatedly pointed out in 1993 + 1994 by global terrorism expert, Yohanan Ramati, director of the Jerusalem Institute for Western Defense – which Nathan Pearlstein posted on Israpundit on some of his posts. Most Western people ignored those warnings…….we are now all paying the deadly price for being asleep at the wheel in the form of terrorist attacks on our own soil by the Islamofascists we defacto supported during the 90’s in the Balkans and elsewhere!(New York, Washington,Madrid,London)

    It’s not every day of the week that an entire country simply disappears off of world maps, its people demonized by the MSM for 17 years, embargoed with devastating UN sanctions for over a decade, and where Western governments + media supported (and continue to support) Islamofascist terrorists and neo-Nazis – mass murderers of Jews,Serbs and Gyspies – to create new states of their own on the corpses and ashes of a constituent and majority nation – in this case: the Serbs of Serbia,Bosnia and Croatia/Krayina – which was once called Yugoslavia.

    Nobody who has researched in depth this particular subject (the Islamofascist and neo-Nazi destruction of Yugoslavia made possible by Western governments and media giving political,diplomatic + military aid + comfort to the terrorists)as I have researched over the last year since seeing the first few articles and comments on Israpundit back in early 2006 by Felix Quigley, F. Gil-White and P.R. North, can, in all honesty, after reviewing all of the massive evidence available, disagree with Yohanan Ramati’s conclusions and say that it is irrelevant to pro-Israel advocacy or that it supposedly somehow “takes away, confuses or distratcts” from our focus on pro-Israel advocacy. Anybody who takes that position has simply NOT taken the time to study the subject well enough to see its enormous importance and direct relevance to the fate of Israel (Yohanan Ramati has proven with his documentation that the very same Islamist + Western government forces which destroyed Yugoslavia – and are still in the process of destroying Serbia by ripping Kosovo away and creating an Islamofascist state on its doorstep – are the very same Islamist + Western government forces who are currently doing the same to Israel.The two issues are thus inexctricably linked together and cannot be separated.

    It would be foolish to say that we should ignore one issue in order to supposedly “focus more attention on the other” – as by doing so, we actually LOSE what valuable insights and knowledge we could have gained on the one issue we are more “focussing on” – in this case pro-Israel advocacy – by ignoring the other issue: the destruction of Yugoslavia and Serbia by Islamofascism and neo-Nazism which was made possible only with Western government (NATO,EU,US) backing.
    As far as the arrogant Oliver Kamm and his walking all over Israpundit with his bullying legal threats against us(which he now denies ever making against Ted and Israpundit but merely claims he it was all merely “…a possible referral for legal advice” (and the highly effective smear campaign against us by Oliver Kamm’s followers: the gang of pro-Izetbegovic Islamofascist and pro-Tudjman neo-Nazi Croatian Ustashi admirers over at British website “Harry’s Place”, it really comes down to this as the ultimate demonstration of moral failure on our part(me included):

    Israpundit not sticking up for its own, caving in and cowering to bullying threats from our enemies by denouncing and smearing our own – in order to placate and appease the arrogant,pompous,hypocritical,self absorbed bullies who make legal threats in order to shut down political debate and to prevent those courageous individuals on Israpundit who exposed those Westerners -like Kamm and Lieberman – who by default supported – de facto, if not de jure – Islamofascist mass murderers of Jews, Serbs and Gypsies in Kosovo + Bosnia + Croatia by calling for the arming of the Islamofascist terrorists (KLA and Izetbegovic SDA) and the massive bombing of purely civilian infrastructure in Serbia by NATO over a 3 month period in order to give the Islamofascist terrorists killers a victory……9/11, Madrid in 2004 and London in 2005 were the deadly result: SHAME ON ALL OF US FOR KEEPING SILENT FOR SO LONG!! How many more attacks on our soil do we need before we realize the suicidal stupidity of what we have done?

    To see how Oliver Kamm smears us by calling us “… beyond conventional measures of the xenophobic lunatic fringe” (thus proving in no small way that he should NEVER have been defended by ANYONE on Israpundit)….and even worse, how he now LIES THROUGH HIS TEETH by denying that he ever threatened to sue Ted and Israpundit,how Kamm denies that he was bullying us,……..please click here…. and scroll down to see Kamm’s comments on the article – his blatant lies + obfuscation of what he did and his continuing hypocritical smear campaign against Israpundit.

18. I sympathize with Serbia but this forum loses focus if it goes to many directions. The Serbs have been greatly wronged, but they along with the people who have the burden to help must get organized and get their story out. Israpundit will lose effectiveness without focus. There are many causes today that need and deserve attention but we all must choose our calling because as much as many of us would like to, you cannot do them all, at least not effectively.

    Felix wrote,

    “The American ruling class IS the problem.”

    Collectively, we the people are the problem, we choose our leaders and put up with them. Then when we finally get mad enough we elect others who are worse.

    Unfortunately, for both the US and Israel, it is likely going to take a very rude awakening to bring us around. That is putting it lightly, but I fear that the apathy and the disconnect with reality is so prevalent among society in general that it will take something very serious to get peoples’ attention.

    At some point everything must come to a head, it cannot go along as it has for the past few decades without reaching critical mass.

    In mid August of 2001 just a couple of weeks before 9/11, thanks mostly to the Drudge Report, along with other news sources I was able to come to the realization Osama bin Ladin was going strike Washington or the Twin Towers in New York. I was only off in that he had planned to hit both. I believed it was eminent but didn’t know what type of weapon and I felt helpless to stop it. I remember sitting at my desk in my office very worried pondering what was coming. I mentioned something to my wife who recalled it later after it happened.

    I say this because I am sensing from all that is happening in the world today that there is going to be global upheaval, I just don’t know when, or what exactly will set it off, but the the focus will very likely be in the Middle-east because it is and has been a point of tension for so long – not just between Arabs and Israelis but between powerful nation who are greatly interested in that region because of energy resources. It doesn’t take a prophet or a rocket scientist to realize this — It seems to me something that anyone who is paying any attention to the world at all should be pondering, at least to some degree.

19. While we must work with the American people, we can’t tell their government to go f themselves. We can say no to them but we can’t slam the door in its face. Thus we must manage the relationship. We also must embrace Rev Hagee and his millions.

    I do not think that Israel can become independent just by weaning itself off the $2.8 billion in aid. That’s the easy part. If Israel were to then compete with the US in arms sales, it wouldn’t stand a chance. It doesn’t have the financial muscle. The US can provide better terms of finance than Israel can and the US can pressure its customers not to buy from Israel. The EU is Israel’s largest trading partner. It is well within foreseeable circumstances to foresee an economic embargo by the EU and the UN. How about a travel ban.

    No I think Israel’s best policy is to push the limits of its confines to achieve more independence while giving signs of cooperation. In this regard, it should not confine itself. It should not make “gestures” and should demand gestures. It should end the “ceasefire” and invade Gaza. Israel must talk “peace” but act like there is no peace prospect.

    As for defending Serbia, Israpundit went out of its way to support your facts and conclusions. We also engaged the AJC and we are in touch with James Jatras who is advocating for Serbia in the US. I did not give you the full support you required because I didn’t know the facts and hesitated to endorse your version without knowing a great deal more. I know a lot more now but still am not where you and Nathan are.

    Our first priority is Israel. We can’t take on the Serbian cause as though it was our most important cause. Nor can we take on the war on terror more than we fight the war on Israel. We have our priorities though we understand they are all related.

20. Ted

    This is not an issue of subtlety. I am as subtle as the next guy and I do not see things black and white.

    I have often said that there must be a United Front against the enemy. But inside this United Front there must be clarity on principles.

    The US Governemnt, as Randy affirms, is a separate entity to the US populace. It is so in every country but especially in the US, where the US working class has never been able to build its own independent party.

    I say that the orientation of the Jewish movement should be to the American people.

    Moreover, Livni and her likes, will lead the Jewish people to a terrible fate.

    This is black and white and subtlety in stating this becomes a great disservice to the Jewish people.

    The original Frontpage symposium left out the key and debilitating role of the US Government. That is what I attacked in what I wrote.

    Somehow Israel has to become a truly independent entity.

    How that can be done is the crucial issue of today, and of every day.

    It cannot be done with the present Israeli leadership. I suspect that Netanyahu understands the problem very well and that is why he does not rush into forming a new government because he knows the problem will still be there.

    The American ruling class IS the problem.

    Even as we speak this American Government of Bush could crush this Iranian threat. And very quickly.

    Do you Ted mean to tell me that the US Government with all those troops in Iraq could not have found Bin Laden and provided the monster with a very slow death, if they had wanted to. OF COURSE THEY COULD!

    There is nothing subtle about these things. There is just truth…YES..NO.

    You are subtle Ted, a subtle lawyer. We showed you that Bin Laden and Izetbegovic were together. You did not take up the ball and run with it. You and Israpundit let us down terribly on that and let Kamm walk all over us. I know you gave space to the issue but this was never about space, thios issue was and is a matter of life and death.

    Subtlety has nothing to do with truth, and absolutely nothing to do with the defeat of Fascism.

    I am not a “revolutionary” as such, I am a thoughtful, thinking person who wants to avoid Jews and Serbs being massacred.

21. To Isaiah53, I agree the Hebrew scriptures teach a literal 7-year Tribulation, and I see your point, that the bad can be used for good–that when in the crucible abandoned by humanity, Israel will call out for God to act. But as much as I want the Messiah to return, it brings me no pleasure to see the stage set for “a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation,” and so fight to the end in attempting to expose evil, exhort moral and biblical decision-making, speak in support of the oppressed (that’d be Israel), and encourage the like-minded. (I read the book, too, even your username’s taboo chapter.)

22. If there are any people reading this who honestly expect peace to suddenly erupt in the middle east, don’t count on it soon. There will be a false peace at some point, but it will be set up for an initial seven years and it will go down in three point five. We who support Israel are all sorts, conservative mostly I suspect, I voted for GB and I’d do it again given the choice of candidates. Perhaps we disagree on some points, but I don’t think any of you truly want one of the liberals, (who I’m afraid will soon be coming into power.) Can anyone imagine Hillary in this soup? God help the world when it happens. Moral values and Constitutional freedoms will be going down the tubes and Israel will have the position that you speak of.
    She will be alone. Hung out to dry.
    But the good news is that from that position, God can step in and act.
    I read the book. I know how it ends. Please Father, grant peace to Jerusalem, Even so Come Lord Jesus.

23. Thanks Randy and Bill, you saved me the trouble.

    Felix is a revolutionary and a black and white kind of guy. Subtlety is not his staple.

24. Terror pays off.
    Just ask Abu Mazen.
    Once again the nefarious and dangerous Olmert capitulates to U.S. pressure. The U.S. cares little for Israel’s national security. What matters most is the flow of relatively inexpensive crude from the Middle East.
    EVERYTHING ELSE IS SECONDARY TO THIS MOST IMPORTANT OBJECTIVE.
    Olmert has now invoked examining the Saudi Peace plan circa 2002.
    This deal makes the horrific ‘Roadmap’ look good.
    Hence, Olmert has once again – for his own evil, selfish and personal reasons put Israel second. He is not insane, naive or misinformed. He is rational and calculating.
    All of you who think that Bush is really a good friend of Israel and the Jewish people had better start smelling the rotten HUMUS! Any of you die hard Republicans should seriously consider leaving the party.
    Israel needs to be able to stand on her own economically.
    She need not be beholden to U.S. Loan Guarentees and Weapons Purchases.
    The charade must come to an end.
    Israel must tell the U.S. that the Saudi plan is long gone.
    Israel cannot be fearful of provoking a confrontation with her “good friend” the U.S.
    Olmert and his crew must be put out to pasture.
    I am not certain who can fill the void. I do not think Netanyahu can be trusted. Will he pledge not to cede one centimeter of terrirtory to the Islamofascists? Will he,a priori,pledge to take the Golan Heights off of the table for any future negotiations with Syria? Will he pledge to never allow any of Jerusalem to fall into Palestinian hands? Would any of his pledges mean anything?

    Mr. Quigley makes many excellent points. Israel needs to have a relationship with the U.S. However, the relationship must not be so lopsided. Israel has many interests which do not coincide with U.S. interests. Israel needs to wean herself off of her ‘socialist persona.’ Israel should not be dependent upon U.S. loan guarantees or weapons sales. Israel has the talent, intelligence and capability to stand (for the most part) on her own. She needs to continue to develop her weapons industry and directly compete with the U.S. for contracts. Moreove Israel does hold some cards. The U.S. receives more useful intelligence about the Muslim/Arab world from Israel than from any other country. This information is invaluable to the U.S intelligence services. Even Bush #1 and Baker realized this fact. Israel has to be willing to ‘risk’ confrontation and disagreement with the U.S. when appropriate.

    Jeff Grill, M.D.

25. Felix,

    Like Bill Narvey I do not think your comment #3 is entirely accurate where you state:

    This position was attacked right down the line by you as editor and by everybody on Israpundit.

    The comment you refer to under a previous topic as being “attacked” contains substantially more than the excerpt you cite in comment #3 on this thread; much of that comment is not at all validated by the article above.

    After reading the comments which followed yours on that thread [HERE], I don’t see how most of information you posted is validated by the article above, or how other commentators are refuted.

    In fact, I see consistency in others’ comments with what we are seeing now in the above. For when Ted stated he profoundly disagreed with you he qualified his statement by saying that the disagreement was with “many of his [ your ] positions”

    Also on a number of points Ted to a degree acknowledges some of the things you wrote even if he disagrees with the overall assessment.

    For example Ted wrote,

    “Israel has to play the game and at the same time go its own way. Unfortunately the GoI now thinks that Israel’s way is to cut a deal even the Saudi deal. This must change.
    Israel must continue to be of service to the US but it cannot commit suicide. This relationship must be managed. The American people are Israel’s best friend and alley. We must rally their support to keep the US government policies favourable to Israel.”

    This still thinking still holds up, for what is the use of the American publics’ support if there is a complete severance of governmental relations between the US and Israel? Favor with US citizens is chiefly important for the purpose of influencing US policy. What good will it do to have a bunch of people merely rooting for Israel if they have no avenue of change or influence in affairs?

    I say this because Felix seems to advocate total severance with the US government while advocating relations with the people in the US. Ted, on the other hand, suggests a controlled and managed relationship as much as possible with caveats and limits. I agree with Ted’s approach even in light of government treachery for it is the lesser of the evils. Besides, government treachery exists not only in the US government, but in the other governments of all the nations, including Israel – Thus, even if Israel becomes isolated for the sake of political purity it can’t.

    Furthermore, Felix stated that his comment was attacked by “everybody”

    However, there were only 3 commentators who responded to Felix: Bill Narvey who already has responded above to Felix, Ted (the “editor” I assume Felix is referring to), and myself (RandyTexas).

    As for myself, I actually agreed with Felix on the point that Israel needed to continue to forge it’s relationship with the American public:

    “This is why PR is every bit as important as a strong military – And NOT just to counter slander against the Jewish state, for the deception of a false peace plan may be a greater danger than the false accusations hurled against Israel.

    Even if Israel can keep the hearts of the American people, if the media convinces the US public that peace is possible through diplomacy then Israel and the West will both be set up for a fall.

    The only way the US government can sell out Israel now is through the facade of a “peace” process, however, in other places Israel is losing the PR war — such as Europe and Russia — and I also believe if trends continue that South America will tend to be more anti-Israel in the future.

    This is a concern considering the current global trend towards multi-lateral multi-national actions to deal with regional problems…….As bad as the US has been policy wise it has still thwarted actions against Israel at the UN.”

    I do not see how this is an “attack” on you Felix? In fact it is a warning against what we are seeing in the Saudi plan or in any other of the unrealistic proposals put forth.

    Again, Israel needs managed relations with the US for the purpose of taking advantage of the support it has in the US public. Yes, there are some undermining aspects to that but if Israel had the balls they could set the conditions, manage the relations, and exploit pro-Israel sentiments in the US .

    For the time being the US is still Israel’s best avenue to thwart the mob rule of nations at the UN and in other international venues, even if it is an faulty ally and at times a choice of the lesser evils.

    It may change in the future and Israel may come into conflict with the US someday and have to sever relations, but for the day Israel must use the leverage it has, for if Israel and the US come into conflict it will mean that Israel and virtually whole world will be in conflict – for who will stand with Israel at that point?

26. Felix you refer to your previous comments on Israpundit under the Titled post, The Dire Threats Israel Now Faces at:

    https://www.israpundit.org/2006/?p=4128#comments

    You now say in your post # 3 above:

    This position was attacked right down the line by you as editor and by everybody on Israpundit.

    Not every commenter on Israpundit attacked your position. In my posts #’d 4, 8 and 10, I raised some concerns with some of your views, questions regarding some of your positions and asked you to clarify more precisely for me what your positions were and why.

    Your responses back to me were unresponsive. Instead your responses were in the vein of questioning me as to why I was asking you questions and you refused to engage me and carry discussion any further. It is all there in black and white for anyone to read and form their own judgment as to whether your above quoted comment is fair.

    Are things so black and white for you that you jump to conclusions that people questioning your views and seeking further explanations are doing no more than attacking your positions?

    As to the above Debka report:

    If this Debka file report is substantially true, then it would appear that the Olmert government is moving against the rising tide of Israeli disagreement with his views.

    Raised by some in other posts is the distinct possibility that Israel is playing for time as it pretends to be engaging in serious talks with the Palestinians so as to make it appear Israel is doing something as opposed to the reality that Israel is just flapping her lips to mollify American eagerness to appear to be moving forward along the road map.

    For more insight into the matters of concern to the Debka file report, readers might consider the following articles in the Jerusalem Post and Ha’Aretz this morning:

    JERUSALEM POST

    PM: Israel ‘serious’ about Saudi plan, By HERB KEINON AND AP at the following site:

    http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1173604565804&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

    Livni: Don’t drop demands on Hamas, By HERB KEINON at:

    http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1173642640624&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

    Analysis: The Saudi fig leaf, By ANSHEL PFEFFER appears in the Jerusalem Post today at the following site:

    http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1173642640383&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

    And from Ha”aretz:

    Livni: We expect Shalit freed before new PA gov’t, By Haaretz Service:

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/836301.html

    and:

    U.S. in talks with Saudis, Israel ahead of Arab League summit, By Aluf Benn, Haaretz Correspondent:

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/835926.html

27. Whatever disagreements I have with Netanyahu, his idea of reducing and eventually eliminating American civilian and military aid money is key to liberating Israel from it’s slavish obedience to American dictates. American aid money is like crack, and that’s exactly the type of addictive effect it’s meant to have. When I was serving in the Israeli army I discussed the issue of American aid money with a number of career officers and they were all convinced that we had to go along with American because we couldn’t afford to loose the aid money.

    Ridiculous, but drugs and welfare create a slave mentality that people have trouble recognizing for what it is, and even more trouble breaking away from.

28. Yet when I wrote the folloowing you stated that you disagreed “profoundly”. You certainly did not say that there was any merit in anything below.

    (The dire threats Israel now faces
    https://www.israpundit.org/2006/?p=4128#comments)

    “To think that there are American politicians like Lieberman (a war-monger in every sense) who are still being promoted by Jewish people and even on Israpundit! Another sobering thought!

    Jewish people and Jewish organizations (as well as the Serbs) should now cut themselves off from all connection and dependence on the United States Government.

    The orientation should instead be to the ordinary American people and on our own independent programme.

    If the United States GOVERNMENT decides to make war here, there and everywhere that is their affair. Jewish people in America should have nothing to do with it and should approach each issue from an independent position.

    If America should decide to fight Iran then Jewish people should join the fight, but as was pioneered by Zeev Jabotinsky, under your own Jewish Political programme and action.

    In the end nothing will save the Jewish nation except Israel, and the struggle to win the ordinary Americans to a programme of support for Israel.

    Israel must be independent.

    It must declare for itself the freedom to say…There I will not go…There I will go because it is in my own best interests to go there with you…BUT UNDER MY OWN BANNER.”

    My emphasis re banner in the original.

    This position was attacked right down the line by you as editor and by everybody on Israpundit.

    Do you not think that you and your commentators should have taken a bit more seriously what I said.

    ISRAEL HAS TO BECOME INDEPENDENT OF THIS AMERICAN GOVERNMENT. FULL STOP!

29. Israel is being set up for yet another war.

30. Even though seen coming, it still shocks and grieves.
    (I would like to apologize to the world for voting for Bush, I believed he was the lesser of two bad choices. I am especially remorseful as I live in the election’s deciding state of Florida.)