This is the best map I have seen.
The BBC sums up the protest in UK and France summon Israeli envoys in settlements row. When these countries voted in vafour of the UN resolution recognizing a Palestine state to the ’67 lines, they were in fact approving of a fundamental breach of the Oslo Accords by the PA. They also have been appointed as monitors of the Roadmap which requires them to uphold its terms. For them, Palestinian actions don’t threaten peace, only Israel’s actions do.
Jonathan Tobin in Commentary puts the lie to what all our detractors are angrily saying by asserting Israel’s Building No Obstacle to Peace:
- It sounds logical but it’s absolute nonsense. If the Palestinians did want a two-state solution, the new project as well as the other ones announced yesterday for more houses to be built in 40-year-old Jewish neighborhoods in Jerusalem wouldn’t stop it. That’s true even of those that say that the final borders of Israel and a putative state of Palestine must be based on the 1949 armistice lines with agreed-upon land swaps. Those swaps wouldn’t amount to more than a few percentage points of the total land area of the West Bank and probably preclude Israel keeping many far-flung settlements in the territory. But everyone knows that the swaps would have to account for the Jewish suburbs of Jerusalem, including Maale Adumim and the other towns in the vicinity that are already inside the security fence that does not protect most settlements. But the operative phrase here is “if” the Palestinians wanted such a solution. They have refused every offer of a state they’ve gotten and refused even to negotiate for four years, not to mention employing the UN gambit specifically in order to avoid talks. The notion that Israeli building in areas that everyone knows they would keep if there was a deal in place is stopping peace from breaking out is ludicrous.
Nor should the Israeli gesture be viewed as petulant. To the contrary, it is exactly what is needed to start changing the one-sided nature of the argument in international forums about the dispute over territory.
Though you wouldn’t know if from listening to the UN debate or even to most spokespersons for the Jewish state over the last forty years, the argument about the West Bank is not solely about pitting rights of Palestinians against Israel’s security needs. The West Bank is, after all, part of the area designated by the League of Nations for Jewish settlement under the Mandate of Palestine. It is also the heart of the ancient Jewish homeland to which Jews have historical, legal and religious ties that cannot be erased by a century of Arab hatred.
Some of Israel’s friends and all of its enemies claim that for Israel to speak of its rights to the West Bank is tantamount to saying that it doesn’t want peace. Not so. Just because it has rights there doesn’t mean that it must assert them under all circumstances, or that it wouldn’t, if convinced that peace was to be had, give up some or all of the territory in exchange for an end to the conflict. Indeed, throughout the last 20 years, Israel has been in engaged in peace talks or attempts to revive them, during the course of which it has made numerous concessions about territory to the Palestinians.
For its pains, Israel has been subjected to even greater vituperation and delegitimization during this period than before. So long as it does not speak of its rights, it will always be treated as a thief who must return stolen property rather than as a party to a conflict with its own justified claims.
Even if the E1 area is developed, there will be no obstacle to peace talks that could produce a Palestinian state in almost all of the West Bank except for the major settlement blocs that no one expects Israel to give up. Nor would the Palestinian state be blighted by this project since highways and tunnels could easily be constructed to allow access between Arab areas to the north and the south of Jerusalem. Indeed, Jewish housing in the disputed areas is no more of an obstacle to peace than the far greater Arab housing boom in other parts of Jerusalem.
If the Palestinians truly wanted to live in peace in their own independent state next to Israel they could go back to the negotiating table and get it. If they were ever to actually offer an end to the conflict in which they recognized the legitimacy and the security of a Jewish state no matter where its borders were drawn, they would find the Israeli people would welcome their offer and no Israeli government could refuse. Instead, the so-called moderates among them — Mahmoud Abbas and his Fatah-run PA — avoid talks and go to the UN where they seek an international fiat rather than an agreement. Meanwhile, the far more popular extremists of Hamas govern an independent Palestinian state in all but name in Gaza with an iron fist and use it as a terrorist launching pad rather than to help their people.
A few Jewish homes aren’t the obstacle to Palestinian statehood. Their existence would make no difference to a peace deal that spoke of the 1967 lines with swaps, if that was actually the Palestinian goal. The problem is that to the Palestinians and their terrorist leaders, the E1 area is no more or less a settlement than the rest of Israel. Until they can rid themselves of the rejectionist spirit of 1947 in which they rejected the first UN vote to give them a state, talk of peace is empty rhetoric.
I should remind you that Israel has never accepted the “67 lines with swaps” formulae which happens to be contrary to Res 242 which allows us to keep some lands when agreeing on borders. It is our detractors who are undermining peace by supporting the actions of the Palestinians, including in Gaza, when they commit acts of terror against Israeli civilians or when they breach agreements entered into requiring negotiations for peace.
The war of the West + 50% of the Jews against Israel continues unabated. American Jews at the for front of the War against IL.
Obama benign conduct in the ME supports and promote PA action against IL. It is is way to get back at Bibi while keeping the American Jews under control. A lot of Bibi arm twisting must be going on behind the scene. The Western and Muslim worlds are scared of the the IL Jews.
@ Canadian Otter:
Dear otter
Thank you for the link.
These birds are both magnificent AND adorable!
Have you been to île bonaventure in Gaspé?
@ Bernard Ross:
Hear hear!
@ the phoenix:
🙂
To make you smile, here’s an item about another conflict over a piece of disputed land, where the Bay of Fundy meets the Gulf of Maine.
Would any of you Israelis like to mediate?
THE PUFFIN WAR – The coming war between Canada and the United States.
We’re getting ready!
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/11/27/a-haven-for-puffins-tranquil-island-off-nova-scotia-is-a-rare-piece-of-disputed-territory-between-canada-and-the-u-s/
Somewhere it got lost that Jews have the right to settle west of the jordan river and that the west bank is disputed rather than owned by arabs. I blame this on weak communication. At this moment BB makes settlement still sound like a punishment rather than a right and allows the false narrative to continue. The only way to counter the negative affect of the past is with bold actions. Declare that PA action requires Israel protecting its claims on the ground: Adopt Levy or annex c and start massive jewish settlement, this is how jewish rights will get protected and discussed. Throw all PA reps out of C and Jerusalem. Ban UN and EU organizations from C and Jerusalem. Repudiate negotiations or discussions about PA, only about jewish refugees, with any foreigners who have broken their guarantees to Israel, and with the PA who has defaulted on its last agreement: only hold talks with PA for security coordination. Repudiate anti semitism and immediately deport all who incited in the past. This is the beginning but would send the correct unspoken message. Time for actions not more worthless words.
@ Canadian Otter:
dear otter,
this is killing me.
again.
there is no disagreement with ANY of your statements in your last post [or with practically ANY of your posts 🙂 ]
i fail to understand how smart people can be so darn stupid! do they really not get it???
on another thread, both you and yamit have burst my ‘feiglin bubble’.
i was taken by his message, but failed to see that he is not walking the walk, i.e. get the hell out of likud and organize a a nationalistic party where he COULD do what he said he would like to do…
in other words, there is no one to lead
so what is left?
an outright coup d’etat? what other options are available?
left to his own devices, this degenerate government will unilaterally declare al’quds to be the eternal capital of the noble ancient palestinian people…
sorry otter, gotta run.
i think i’m gonna throw up!
Stinking euros are without shame. BB should state that all the participants and guarantors breached the oslo agreement so it makes no sense to speak in terms of Israel being the only one to keep honoring it. That is an unacceptable double standard which deserves a severe face slapping. Talking about “peace’ is now as anachronistic as Oslo and the 2 state solution. There is no reason to talk anymore at all with the pals or others except to hear how they are going to compensate jewish refugees: from now on it should just be declarations and unilateral actions from Israel. An idiot negotiates and makes agreements with those who just broke their last agreement. An idiot relies on the guarantees of those who keep breaking their guarantees. I wish BB had the guts to repudiate oslo and ALL prior failed paradigms regarding faux peace. Only security and Israels concerns should be on the agenda. Any pals making trouble can be dumped in gaza, syria or lebanon with little trouble. On looking at E1 it is obvious that the stinking euros are trying to keep Israel split in pieces or to force giving up MA. Get Eisnor back here with his rifle butt again.
@ the phoenix:
First on the agenda is to debunk Israelis’ belief that their government will act according to their best interest. Experience and current evidence points to the opposite.
Second, they must reclaim the power they surrendered to their elected politicians. Their authorities DO NOT have the right to give their land away – land that belongs to the Jewish people for all times.
As long as Israelis continue to regard their elected and appointed officials with such undeserved deference and trust – always giving them the BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT – nothing can be done to save Israel from the Dismantling Process (AKA Peace Process).
@ yamit82:
CHILLING –
Today’s headlines tell of the US government warning Syria against the use of chemical weapons. “You will be held accountable” Obama warns Assad. (Really? How, if they decide to use it against Israel?)
Just the other day Obama opposed US Senate harder sanctions against Iran, after years of reassuring Israel that the US would not allow the Iranians to develop nukes.
@ Canadian Otter:
Agreed on all accounts!
Now what?
@ yamit82:
Add it to the even bigger SILENCE regarding Israel’s legal rights to the land according to the League of Nations Mandate/St Remo Conference. That conspiratorial silence is the BIGGEST SCAM perpetrated against modern Israel, in a history full of betrayals against the Jewish people by ‘allies’, ‘friends’, and Israel’s own elected authorities.
Another Tack: Afraid of victory
By SARAH HONIG
03/19/2009 10:29
Fear has dominated our zeigeist ever since Oslo.
Reminder to EU and Rotten Clinton:
September 9, 1993
Yitzhak Rabin
Prime Minister of Israel
Mr. Prime Minister,
The signing of the Declaration of Principles marks a new era in the history of the Middle East. In firm conviction thereof, I would like to confirm the following PLO commitments:
The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.
The PLO accepts United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338.
The PLO commits itself to the Middle East peace process, and to a peaceful resolution of the conflict between the two sides and declares that all outstanding issues relating to permanent status will be resolved through negotiations.
The PLO considers that the signing of the Declaration of Principles constitutes a historic event, inaugurating a new epoch of peaceful coexistence, free from violence and all other acts which endanger peace and stability. Accordingly, the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations and discipline violators.
In view of the promise of a new era and the signing of the Declaration of Principles and based on Palestinian acceptance of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, the PLO affirms that those articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel’s right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid. Consequently, the PLO undertakes to submit to the Palestinian National Council for formal approval the necessary changes in regard to the Palestinian Covenant.
Sincerely,
Yasser Arafat
Chairman
The Palestine Liberation Organization
_____________________________________________________
_____________________________________________________
In July 2000, Israel had already offered to the Palestinian Authority — during the United States-sponsored negotiations at Camp David, Maryland — a sovereign state in slightly over 90% of the “Occupied Territories”. However, the Palestinian Authority rejected this offer by both word and deed, the latter manifestation of which took the form of a dramatic increase in Arab terror on Rosh HaShana in September 2000 (under the initial pretense that a visit to the public plaza atop the Temple Mount by an Israeli parliamentary delegation led by then opposition leader Ariel Sharon had “spontaneously” provoked the “Arab street”). In December 2000, in a final effort to alleviate the feigned “Root Cause” of the conflict, the United States proposed its own end-of-the-conflict peace plan whereby a “Palestinian” Arab state — the 22nd Arab state — would be created by taking 95% of the “Occupied Territories”, together with certain additional land (which would be annexed to Gaza) inside pre-1967 Israel equivalent to another 2% thereof, for a total of 97% of the land area plus all of the Arab-occupied neighborhoods in the eastern portion of Jerusalem and the entire Temple Mount (thereby necessitating the uprooting of more than 100 Jewish communities from Judea, Samaria and Gaza). However, the U.S. plan also required that the “Palestinian” Arabs waive any further territorial or other claims against Israel, including the pan-Arab demand for a “Palestinian” Arab “right of return” to the State of Israel.
@ Canadian Otter:
Funny how elections elicit the strangest political declarations by politicians.
Isn’t it odd that almost no one remembers or brings up the fact that the U.S.A is the guarantor of the OSLO and Road Map agreements.
And that few submit that the actions of the Palis is in Gross Violation of every agreement made and signed between Israel and the Palis Arabs with American guarantees on those agreements.
@ Ted Belman:
@ ArnoldHarris:
@ rongrand:
I must add this Caveat. BB made a declaration of intent and no more. If he is serious it might take years before the first building or road is built or constructed. With the European Hysterical reaction and H. ROTTEN Clinton’s reaction— BB I think is already walking back his declaration of intent.
The Europeans are toothless and BB is not overly concerned with their reaction. They know they have no say in the outcome but they pin their hopes on OBAMA (90% European Support for president in this past election) to lead and they will back and follow his lead.
EU Leaders and politicians are only reacting and voicing the European Street which is much more anti-Israel and pro Palis than are most of the politicians.
And Rongrand is right.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
I am certainly not a student of Israeli government, treaties, etc. Having said that I do believe all of Israel, the Holy Land belongs to the Jews.
I also realize the Arab world would love to carve it up take what they can.
I do believe and I am sure everyone else does likewise “possession is nine-tenths of the law”.
The reason I often post “continue to build communities”.
There is only One State, the Sovereign Nation of Israel with it’s capital Jerusalem.
Let them and their friends throughout the world talk all they want and while they are doing so, CONTINUE TO BUILD COMMUNITIES.
Who will take it away from you, or rather who would be crazy enough to try.
So far to date others have tried and failed, G-d is with Israel.
The IDF doesn’t work alone.
For once, most of the comments I read here on Israpundit post are on-track relative to the permanent interests of the Jewish nation and the Jewish state.
Ted is right. Build E1 into a a significantly wall-to-wall Jewish settlement group, replete with a Jewish cemetery and the usual industries, and that is the end of any two-state solution. Which is precisely what I want, and I think most of you think the same.
Yamit is right. I too hope the Jewish settlements in Shomron and Yehuda are permanent blocks to peace. Because any peace that could be made with the Arabs in the immediate region of Israel would be a peace that would guarantee the ultimate dissolution of the Jewish state.
NormanF is right. The political mood in Israel is shifting to the right, the right-center, and the religious vote will tend less toward any accomodations with the Labor party and its political lookalikes.
Stay the course and build, build, build settlements, settlement, settlements wherever needed to chop up the enemy urban areas into isolated blocs of land. That makes it difficult for them to coalesce, and more likely that the Palestine political movements always will remain plural and, Arabs being what they are, mostly mutually hostile.
B’tselem — a group that obviously hates our kind of Zionism, provides what I think is a useful service in providing relatively accurate maps showing Jewish development in the territories, along with detailed demographic data. Here is what they report:
If these statistics are accurate, and if such a demographic pace can be sustained, it means that the Jewish population of Shomron and Yehuda can be doubled in less than 15 years to more than 650,000, which, along with a similarly augmented Jewish population in eastern Jerusalem proper will mean as many as 1.1 or 1.2 million Jews in this so-called “contested” areas. Which means the Jewish nation wins despite every obstacle. “Af al pi ken”, as the name of that little boat from the War of Independence, resting on the landward side of the coastal highway south of Haifa told me back in 1973-1974.
As I say. Stay the course.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
yamit82 Said:
I do to. The only question is do we come right out with it or do what Tobin did. For my part I very much hope that we build and it kills the two state solution.
@ the phoenix:
Certainlythat goes for all the people who vote for right wing parties and probably half of those that don’t. That’s my perception.
NormanF Said:
norman, i REALL hope you are right.
is this YOUR feeling or can you point to some credible source for your statement?
My first reaction to “Israel’s Building No Obstacle to Peace” is: I hope it is!
The real and only Root Cause of our conflict with the Arabs was, is, and always will be the unified Arab rejection of the existence of a Jewish nation-state in any portion of the biblical Land of Israel — even within the 11% of Mandatory Palestine allotted to the Jewish people by virtue of the Palestine Partition Plan.
Israel must reject, in one sense, 2000 years of history. The Jews must finally and completely reject that they are European.
If any country recalls their Ambassador, then Israel must one up them, not only by breaking diplomatic relations, but also by expelling all of that nation’s journalists from Israel. That ESPECIALLY goes for the UK, given the Jew-hating venom of the BBC.
Israel must threaten to push an endangered EU over the economic cliff into total collapse. This may involve blowing up oil pipelines in Syria or the Persian Gulf that feed Europe. The rise in oil prices will drive Europe to total collapse.
Israel must be ready to land troops in Europe to defend Jews. This will likely mean opening fire and killing hundreds if not thousands of Muslims and leftists. The result will push the EU into a civil war that will destroy it.
Israel must quietly, and through back channels, and with plausible deniability, tell the Europeans that their major cities are targeted by Israeli nukes. If Israel is destroyed, Europe will be destroyed 15 minutes later.
Europe is a mortal, genocidal, Nazi enemy, and must be treated as such.
The timing of this announcement makes the construction of housing on Jewish land a weapon of revenge – instead of a right. It goes without saying that the construction freeze should have never taken place.
Even more – Jewish land should have never been put under military administration and divided up into Arab, Wating-to-become-Arab, and Partly-Jewish. Or as they called them, Areas A, B, and C. And Eastern Jerusalem should have never been left for the Arabs to take unofficial possession. This land has been Jewish since ancient times – occupied by invaders at times – but Jewish by right. It should have never been divided up, ghettoized, and largely assigned to the defeated and murderous enemy, with the goal of surrendering it almost completely to them in the future.
It is painful and profoundly offensive how politicians entrusted with governing Israel have been the ones to GHETTOIZE THE JEWS within their own land – land recovered by Jewish heroes in 1967. There are no words to describe the depravity of those governments’ decisions.
The entire contretemps is to force Israel to give up its rights to Judea and Samaria.
But it will have exactly the opposite of what Israel’s Western detractors hope to achieve. There is no real support for land for peace in Israel.
Labor candidate Yariv Oppenheimer did not get in the top 15 in the Labor Party primaries and he is the Israeli Left’s leading land for peace dove. There is a good chance Meretz, which embodies this philosophy, will be shut out of the next Knesset.
No Israeli Jew believes more Israeli concessions will produce peace – and we’re talking about the man-in-the-street – not the Israeli elite.
The Europeans and the Russians do not understand the mood in Israel today. There is no peace to be had with the Arabs – at a price Israelis would be willing to pay.
And punishing Israel for looking out for its own interests will actually strengthen Arab intransigence and rejection of Israel’s existence and extinguish the few slim prospects of peace that do exist. Israelis find the international reaction both hypocritical and unfair.