By accepting this framework, Bibi is accepting the same preconditions he so vehemently rejected six months ago. Regardless of whether the framework is binding or not, Israel will be committed to uprooting 150,000 Jews which is about 50% of the settlers outside Jerusalem. We get nothing out of this deal that we didn’t already have. No one can force the right of return on us nor define us. And this deal leaves Jerusalem out of the question. It must be rejected. If the Iran deal was a “bad deal” this is a horrible deal.
Do not extend negotiations on these terms. I am saddened that this trio are going to accept it.
How can they bypass the Cabinet when so much is being given away. The government should fall over this. Ted Belman
BY YIFA YAAKOV AND TIMES OF ISRAEL STAFF
February 2, 2014,
Yifa Yaakov, TOI
Israel is set to give its wary assent to US Secretary of State John Kerry’s framework peace proposal as the basis for continuing talks with the Palestinian Authority through to the end of 2014, Channel 2 news reported on Saturday night.
The TV report said Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Defense Minister Moshe Ya’alon and Foreign Minister Avigdor Liberman are all inclining to accept the US framework terms, some of which were detailed by Martin Indyk, the State Department’s lead envoy to the Israeli-Palestinian negotiations, in a conference call with American Jewish leaders on Thursday. The framework document would have to be finalized in the next few weeks, ahead of a scheduled fourth and final phase of Palestinian prisoner releases set for March, the report said.
The US framework document, whose terms will not have to be signed off as fully binding by the Israeli and Palestinian leaderships, provides for talks on Palestinian statehood based on the pre-1967 lines with land swaps to enable 75 to 80 percent of settlers to come under Israeli sovereignty, relates to Israel as the Jewish state, provides for compensation for refugees but no Palestinian “right of return,” and does not go into detail on the fate of Jerusalem, Indyk indicated.
Well-placed political sources told The Times of Israel at the weekend, meanwhile, that Netanyahu’s agreement to continue peace talks on the basis of the framework proposal need not provoke a coalition crisis with the right-wing Jewish Home party. Provided the framework deal was not binding and was not brought to a government vote, the sources said, the party’s leader, Economy and Trade Minister Naftali Bennett, would likely not choose to bolt the coalition over it.
Reports in recent weeks have indicated that the Palestinian Authority is set to reject the framework document, but these reports have not been confirmed.
Saeb Erekat, the chief Palestinian negotiator over the weekend again ruled out the notion of Palestinian recognition of Israel as a Jewish state. Speaking at a Munich conference, on a panel with his Israeli counterpart Tzipi Livni, Erekat said the demand was unacceptable: “When you say ‘accept Israel as a Jewish state’ you are asking me to change my narrative,” he claimed, asserting that his ancestors lived in the region “5,500 years before Joshua Bin-Nun came and burned my hometown Jericho.”
Several Israeli right-wing politicians castigated Kerry on Saturday for comments he made at the same event, the Munich Security Conference, warning Israel of dire consequences if the current peace effort fails. Kerry said he was utterly certain that the current status quo was “not sustainable… It’s illusionary. There’s a momentary prosperity. There’s a momentary peace.” But that would end if the talks failed, he said, noting that already Israel was facing increased delegitimization and boycott threats. (A series of banks and pension funds in Norway, Denmark, Sweden and Holland have announced a cessation of dealings with Israeli banks and companies in recent days because of those firms’ West Bank activities.)
US Secretary of State John Kerry (photo credit: AP Photo/Mary Altaffer)
US Secretary of State John Kerry (photo credit: AP Photo/Mary Altaffer)
Kerry said failure to reach a peace deal would damage Israel’s capacity to be “a democratic state with the particular special Jewish character that is a central part of the narrative and of the future.”
The secretary also responded to last month’s highly critical comments about him by Ya’alon, who apologized after being quoted calling him “obsessive” and “messianic” in his push for peace. Kerry said he was “surprised” by the reports, and that rather than being obsessive or fanatical, he and his team were “just working hard, because the consequences of failure are unacceptable.”
In response to the secretary’s warnings about the delegitimizing and boycotting of Israel, Bennett, the economy and trade minister, accused Kerry of incitement and of serving as a “mouthpiece” for anti-Semitic elements attempting to boycott Israel. To Kerry “and all advisers,” Bennett wrote in a Facebook post, “the Jewish people are stronger than the threats against them.” He added that the Jews would not “surrender their land” as a result of economic pressure.
“Only security will bring economic stability, not a terrorist state close to Ben-Gurion Airport. We expect our friends around the world to stand by our side to face the anti-Semitic attempts to boycott Israel, not to be their mouthpiece,” Bennett added. ”In any case, we knew how to stay strong in the past and we will now as well.”
Naftali Bennett (L), leader of the Jewish Home party, seen with Jewish Home MK Uri Ariel at a faction meeting in the Knesset on October 28, 2013. (photo credit: Miriam Alster/Flash90)
Naftali Bennett (L), leader of the Jewish Home party, seen with Jewish Home MK Uri Ariel at a faction meeting in the Knesset on October 28, 2013. (photo credit: Miriam Alster/Flash90)
Housing and Construction Minister Uri Ariel (Jewish Home) was also quick to respond to Kerry’s comments. ”Kerry said today that Israel’s economic prosperity and security are an illusion, and that if peace talks fail, Israel will be boycotted. But the truth is that the only illusions are the peace slogans Kerry is trying to sell to Israel. Slogans that cover up an existential threat to the State of Israel,” Ariel posted late Saturday on his official Facebook page. ”The Palestinians can hardly believe how lucky they are to have such a ‘fair’ mediator,” he added. “This is what incitement looks like.”
Likud MK Tzipi Hotovely, meanwhile, said Kerry’s “threats of an unprecedented boycotts” were “attempts to intimidate Israel in an effort to impose a dangerous agreement that runs contrary to the position of the Israeli government.” She said such an agreement, would “jeopardize Israel’s security,” and be “worse than any economic boycott.”
Likud MK and deputy minister Ofir Akunis also lambasted Kerry for his remarks, saying they were indicative of Washington’s “aggressive policy towards Israel.” He added, “We were here before Kerry, we’ll be here after him as well.”
Israeli government sources quoted by Channel 2 urged Kerry to pressure the Palestinians not Israel, and said that his warnings to Israel only made the Palestinians more obdurate in their positions.
yamit82 Said:
That’s Nexico,they protct their retiries,not the drug cartel ridden border.
honeybee Said:
My best friend lives half the time in Mexico. Winters in Mexico Summers in NY State. Lots of American and Canadian ex pats living in Mexico, a lot cheaper than Florida with a higher standard of living.
honeybee Said:
No but I did catch it on Yahoo this morning when I woke up. Fell asleep middle of 4th quarter of the game and at half time I went to get something to eat and missed it.
How could Manning say with a straight face their loss and his performance was not an embarrassment.?? I was embarrassed for him and I’ve never seen a more incompetent performance by a celebrated professional. I wonder if the gamblers did not buy the results like the old Chicago BlackSox scandal. I knew Seattle was good but not that Denver was that bad. Something smells.
yamit82 Said:
How did you know what I was wearning?
honeybee Said:
I love women with mustaches and beards who never use electrolysis.
yamit82 Said:
That goes for the USA too. Did you watch O’Reilly interview Obama.
yamit82 Said:
A cousin of Tx went Mexico to hunt doves with brand new shotgun and pick-up. He had the proper papers. The Mexican Federales arsested hin and comfiscated his gun and truck and release him. Despite all warnings, he was piss off, retuned to Mexico the retrive his property. Never been seen again!!!
http://youtu.be/oOb8UV1THTU
Felix Quigley Said:
After Sharon lost the referendum he quit the Likud formed Kadima and continued to govern as the largest faction. After the elections Kadima got I think 42 seats to the likuds 12. First elections with Livni leading the Likud beat BB by on mandate and BB and Likud got to form the government because the majority of the other political parties supported him based on right wing nationalist platforms which BB Jettisoned as soon as he was sworn in as PM.
We have chosen leaders to effect changes and or to maintain staus quo principles and each instance they betrayed those who elected them.
What would be gained at this time for Bennett and his 12 man faction leaving the government. They could be replaced in all probability by Labor with 15 member faction. That would give more strength to those who would sell Y&S and put it’s defenders in opposition with no voice or power.
@ dove:
I dpm’t realy care what you do or what you think,Darlin!!!!!!!!! The wonderfull things about being a “loner” is that you really don’t give a damn about other opinions of oneself.
@ yamit82:
Nobody goes across the border anymore,Duce,to damn dangerous. However I have been Mexico. Use to love to go. As for Europe, USA is good enough for me. Mu cousin visited Poland, it was unpleasant visit.
@ honeybee:
Why do you ask such ignorant questions? I have travelled to the U.S. a lot! For both business and pleasure. It’s foreign policy I don’t like. Stop taking it so personal. It wouldn’t hurt if you spread your wings a little.
honeybee Said:
Brownsville??? Virreinato de Nueva España
yamit82 Said:
French for hockey!!!!!!
yamit82 Said:
The Dutch? Not exactely “rocket science”.
yamit82 Said:
Then what are we doing together?????? Darlin
honeybee Said:
I thought that was lacrosse?
Who invented ice skates?
honeybee Said:
Me too.
Felix Quigley Said:
I do not give the Arabs as a collective credit for any degree of higher intelligence. To give them a collective credit for having intelligence you must first prove with credible empirical evidence to prove your case. This holds true for many ethic groups collectively.
As far as they are my enemy I do respect them as I do all enemies and never underestimate their ability to do us harm. I agree with you re: trusting them to save us by repeating past errors in their approach towards us. There is always a first time for everything and doing something out of character by them is also a weapon against us that should be considered by our decision and policy makers.
I doubt many so called Palis Arabs know who Hajj Amin el Husseini was or who were Nazis and what it is. 50% of the Arab population in Israel and the territories are under 25. Most Israelis that age don’t know who BenGurion or Begin were, they think BenGurion is our national airport and a University in the Negev.
History is not a popular subject in our schools or the Arabs. The problem is not so much Fascism which it is but it is based mainly on supersessionist beliefs of Islam.
Even non observant Arabs are influenced by Islamic culture and thinking, it’s part of their everyday culture.
dove Said:
What did you think would happen?
dove Said:
I prefere loners
@ honeybee:
Not sure what you meant by this response. The video I sent you was Ringette – not Hockey a female game that started in Canada. You were asking if Canada had anything that was unique to Canada. Actually I participated in a Ringette tournament in the U.S. as they were just learning about the sport and asked if some teams from Canada would go to help them out and teach them how to play. They very much appreciated it and it was a lot of fun and the Americans were very nice and friendly to us. That’s what I look for in people. Someone who is willing to be part of a team – a team player.
Shy Guy Said:
I won’t be pretty anymore.
honeybee Said:
Isn’t about time you shaved that mustache down a bit?!
Shy Guy Said:
Ya found me out!!!!!!!
honeybee Said:
It’s a trap!
dove Said:
Look in the mirror
@ dove:
the First Nations invented Hockey.
The above comment is for you HB. We are suppose to be on the same side. Not interested in narrow-mindedness.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFAKtHFswx0&feature=player_detailpage
dove Said:
American architecture, hi-ways, cars have you anything unique???????
SHmuel HaLevi 2 Said:
If you can dazzle them with your brilliance,baffle them with your B.S..
the phoenix Said:
No, I wait for the world to come to Texas!!!! Lots of Canadian here in the winter ,ay. And hard drinking Roughnecks from the western provences of Canada. They are blond,speak English so they escape I.C.E..
dove Said:
I live in a large park!!!!!!!!
NormanF
You need to give your enemies the power of intelligence. And never rely on your enemies to save you Norman. you are doing that!
Also Kerry has expended much energy on this. Usually when people do this there is a reason. Grant him intelligence Norman.
Remember that the Palestinian Arabs are the creature of the Nazis under Hajj Amin el Husseini, carried on by Arafat and Clinton, rescued from certain defeat in Trípoli, brought back by OSLO etc.
Read what is happening Norman and THINK. Abbas is now saying that he will recognise Israel, why not, and since that recognition can be rubbished the next day, that he will be protected from the Jews by NATO
Norman the key to all of this lies in what happened in Bosnia and Kosovo. All of the lessons are there. Things are always leading to somewhere Norman. Those who sit back and do not ACT will be lost.
Then there was a clear window of opportunity. Sharon was part of Likud. Sharon held a referendum in the party about Gaza. The Likud opposed Sharon’s plans for withdrawal. Sharon then having called the referendum arrogantly disregraded its democratic decisión.
THAT was the decisive moment and it was a only a moment
All such events are always pressed into one single moment in time. That was the time for big advance in Israel. Likud had to expel Sharon at that very time. They missed that time.
Having missed that time then they were on the back foot. Such leaders as in Likud are not trained to take such action in a certain time, always times of stress. Will Bennett?
That is what I mean by leadership and that is why my posts on sites like Israpundit and Jihadwatch are so often destroyed. To get such a leadership leads us into a new situation, a new set of life experiences that certain people just will not go into.
If Bennett does not withdraw NOW at this very time…
If Likud does not expel Netanyahu…
If those things do not actually and really happen then there will be consequences and I think they will be severe (when I look on Syria)
Just remember the US Empire cannot accept Independent Jews on this earth.
We are on a knife edge. Actually things are so full of possibility for Jews, for Israel, and for all of us who are tired of the old order of the killing of our dear animals and the killing of the human spirit in so many ways, unemployment among youth being the most deadly.
If Likud and Bennett act independently and decisively this will take the ground from beneath both Obama and Kerry. The EU will also be floored. People in Ukraine may look up. Certainly the people of America will look up and will adore the Jews of Israel as never before. DO IT!
(written in response to the poison of Beniyaar above who suggests that the talks are not going anywhere, they said the same in 2005 and in events leading up to 2005)
SO, shall we continue to write long essays? Analyze and meet endlessly?
For a decade we identified the unJews for what they are and what their plans are.
Still… no worthy preparations to defend.
I am so sorry we lost all we have identifying us as we should be.
In fact Yamit has nailed it in this
All of that is totally correct but I add that it is not the same but similar to Israel as Sharon moved against Gaza and Gaza Jews-
then there was a clear window of opportunity. Sharon was part of Likud. Sharon held a referéndum in the party about Gaza. The Likud opposed Sharon’s plans for withdrawal. Sharon then having called the referéndum arrogantly disregraded its democratic decisión.
THAT Yamit was the decisive moment and it was a moment
All such events are always pressed into one single moment in time. That was the time for big advance in Israel. Likud had to expel Sharon at that very time. They missed that time. Having missed that time then they were on the back foot. Such leaders as in Likud are not trained to take such action in a certain time, always times of stress.
That is what I mean by leadership and that is why my posts here are so often destroyed. To get such a leadership leads us into a new situation, a new set of life experiences, that certain people just will not go into.
If Bennett does not withdraw NOW at this very time
If Likud does not expel Netanyahu
If those things do not actually and really happen then there will be consequences and I think they will be severe (when I look on Syria)
Just remember the US Empire cannot accept Independent Jews on this earth.
Ted Belman says
Yamit82 answers, correctly in my view
Yes indeed the damage has been done and Ted Belman is too late.
Let me throw in another thought here. We know what the US does, I emphasise the US Governments of either Democratic or Republican not the people.
The US Governments sets out to créate a CHAOS in the world, because chaos is also a form of control. The US is not content with the existence of any other INDEPENDENT Government on earth, whether it is Red or Zionist or Celtic or whatever
We know what these politicians like Olmert, Livni and Bibi do. They have no Independence per se and they are operators in the Israeli Bubble Power situation. Most including Glick have been trained in America.
So now it turns to certain key people and this is my point for consideration. They are especially but not exclusively
1. Bennett
2. The Likud party in which is actually Bibi
It is clear that Bennett should get out of the Government
It is clear that Likud should expel Bibi
Those two things are a start
Oh and there should be no censorship here. My posts are being disappeared. As was one of my posts on Jihadwatch all within past few weeks
The government of Israel is not going to fall, the Israeli government will accept some of the proposals, the Palestinians will as they always do, reject everything and demand that Israel be destroyed, and the talks will continue to go nowhere. All you people who want new elections should be careful what you wish for, the last time the Israeli Nationalist camp brought down a right wing government led by Shamir, we got Rabin and Oslo, do you really want to take a chance on that again? I definitely do not!
I can’t imagine any reason to agree to the framework other than knowing the Pals never will.
@ honeybee:
Dear honeybee,
A question if I may.
Have you ever traveled anywhere outside of USA?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAjT8DAaJRQ&feature=player_detailpage
@ honeybee:
Jews don’t need litebulbs. We are a lite of our own. I live in one of these cities. Fortunate enough to have a very large parklike yard. Similar to Israel. The transition won’t be hard. Did it again! Video in next comment! 🙂
@ dove:
I’am surprised, you have lite bulbs in Canada,? here I thought yawl only use whale blubber.
@ honeybee:
TRIPPLE – double for the Yanks!
The Palestinian Arabs say “no.” They’re not smart enough to realize if they simply mouth the words “Jewish State” – they can gain a victory over Zionism without having to fire a single shot.
I’m not giving anything away because they reject even the appearance of compromise when it would be in their own interests. Israel doesn’t want a conflict with Obama and Kerry so if the Palestinian Arabs do walk out in April – Israel will be accepting a non-binding paper that will go nowhere.
Seriously, no one really expects the Palestinian Arabs to make the compromises necessary to reach even a fake peace agreement – something Abu Bluff can never do without endangering his own life.
dove Said:
Are they Canadians???? Then double the number!!!!!!!Sugar
Ya’alon just said Israel can live without a peace agreement. Israel is willing to continue the charade of negotiations without agreeing to anything. They do not want to be blamed for stalling the b.s. talks.
This a game no peace treaty will result from this Kerry process if it continues past the 9 months. Will Abbas negotiate past the
9 months ?
Q. How many idiots does it take to screw in a litebulb?
A. 3 – 1 to screw it in and 2 to read the directions
When I see the efforts that the U.S. has gone to beefing up security for the Superbowl I just shake my head. How is it that they realize the necessity to spend millions to protect a football game but do not seem to realize that Israel is in much closer proximity to these terrorists both from within and without? And instead…..Israel is expected to make peace? Or a least make another goodwill gesture such as uprooting Jews AGAIN??
I’ve started a new thang. Very busy. Praying 3x a time. Thanking G-d for not making me a MAN!!
keelie Said:
Not as daunting as it seems.
Many if not most of the 150,000 are not very ideological or not ideological at all. Pay them enough and they will leave voluntarily.
The government will in advance isolate settlements with hardcore ideologues from those who are not.
The IDF will reduce protection for the settlers making life more difficult.
Basic services will become sporadic or cut entirely like budgets and deliveries of basic necessities. Public transportation curtailed etc.
The government will with the help of our leftist MSM paint the settlers as fanatics and opponents of Peace and democracy.
Not all of the settlers are armed as a matter of fact not as many as you seem to believe.
But even if they all were armed to the teeth they will not lift a finger or use those weapons against another Jews especially the IDF. Some might resist but they face all of the security arms of the State of Israel and will as in the past lose.
My question is who will pay and how much and finally when and how.
Yamit and Sinai withdrawal bankrupted Israel drove inflation to 23% a month at peak and created almost 20years of economic stagflation that only the massive Russian immigration pulled Israel chestnuts out of the fire. There was no economic, political of diplomatic benefit to Israel either from our withdrawals form Sinai or from Gaza. They only created more pressure for more Israeli concessions and contractions of borders back to Auschwitz of pre 67′.
A- because they can and B- Because it is not of formal binding agreement, at least that’s how it will be spun. You missed stating the principle of negotiations from the pre -67 lines. Essentially the Government of Israel has already ceded 97% of Y&S to the Arabs and will be negotiating over the other 7% including Jerusalem about how much if any we can still keep. BB should have been thrown out when he announced his Bar Ilan speech and program. You bought into the spin and forced interpretation of nuance. That was one of the few times in his life he spoke the truth. When he agreed to a building freeze for 9 months he should have been thrown out. Don’t forget it is always BB begging for negotiations with the Palis nobody else was so desirous not even Obama.
Remember when the editor of Ha’aretz :landau asked Condi Rice to rape Olmert to bring him to make suicidal concessions, BB does not need to be raped he is a willing victim.
I agree but you are a bit late with your conclusions, Most of the damage has been done. The Kerry framework will be presented as a non binding paper and guide to allow negotiations to continue past the nine month deadline. Each side will insert and state publicly objections and or stipulations to what they can’t agree to, which as with the “Road Map Agreement” (13) government stipulations) nobody will accept in the end or remember. “The Past is Prologue”
My analysis is that Lieberman’s star has fallen and his political base greatly diminished, The Likud rank and file don’t want him as they consider him a traitor.
He can’t attack BB from the right as Bennett has carved for himself that position so he has few political options other than to cling to BB keep the coalition together for as long as he can but anything instead of new elections.
Ya’alon who has been making right wing noises of late probably has been put on notice by BB that he is replaceable and he won’t kill his political future over Kerry understandings that require as yet no on the ground implementation.
The only ones who can cause new elections are the Likud/Beteynu MK’s along with Bennett and the religious panties in opposition along with maybe Meretz who look to pick up seats if elections were to take place today.
I suspect the Likud MK’s will make noise and threaten but stop short of causing new elections.
I’m trying to figure out the logistics of how they will uproot and move 150000 well-armed settlers…