Israeli Arab citizens would find themselves in Palestinian state under land swap proposal to enable annexation of settlement blocs
Israel has raised the idea of transferring parts of the territory in “the triangle” southeast of Haifa — along with the hundreds of thousands of Israeli-Arab citizens who live there — to a future Palestinian state in return for annexing West Bank territory including settlement blocs, Maariv reported on Wednesday.
The idea is not central to the formal talks being brokered by US Secretary of State John Kerry, who is due back in Israel on Thursday pushing a “framework” peace agreement. But it has been discussed “at the highest levels” between Israel and the US, the report said.
The area known as “the triangle,” located in the Sharon plain, contains mostly Arab-populated towns and cities such as Kafr Qara, Umm al-Fahm, Tayibe and Qalansawe. It was to have come under Jordanian rule in the arrangements that saw the establishment of the State of Israel but was ultimately included in Israeli sovereign territory under the 1949 armistice agreements because of Israeli security demands, and instead Israel ceded territory that had been earmarked for Israeli sovereignty in the area of the southern Hebron hills.
Unnamed sources told Maariv that the “triangle” plan has come up during talks between Israel and US officials at various levels, including at least one occasion when very senior officials including Kerry were in attendance. Israeli legal officials have begun investigating legal aspects of such an arrangement, the newspaper said. It added that the Americans have apparently not assented to the idea, and that the Palestinians are likely to reject it.
The idea is aimed at addressing two central issues in a possible peace agreement: first, land swaps between Israel and a Palestinian state that would enable Israel to expand its sovereignty to encompass major West Bank settlements, while compensating the Palestinians with territory that is currently part of sovereign Israel; and second, preserving Israel’s Jewish majority.
The possibility of land swaps between Israel and the Palestinians has gained widespread backing in the international community, but Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is making stiffer territorial demands than some of his prime ministerial predecessors, the report said, including refusing to give away as much as he receives. In other words, whereas former prime minister Ehud Olmert was prepared to trade land on a one-to-one basis, Netanyahu is apparently pushing for a better formulation from Israel’s point of view.
John Kerry, left, and Benjamin Netanyahu at a press conference in Jerusalem In September 2013. (photo credit: US State Department)
Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas has been widely reported to seek only very minimal land-swap border adjustments, whereas Netanyahu seeks to ensure that as many Israelis living beyond the Green Line as possible be brought under undisputed Israeli sovereignty under a permanent accord.
Netanyahu is also concerned about Israel’s available land reserves being sufficient to meet its growing population demands, the report said. In addition, the prime minister is worried that even after signing a peace agreement, the Palestinians won’t genuinely be reconciled to ending their conflict with Israel, and will hope instead that Israel’s Arab population, whose growth rate is higher than the Jewish population, can eventually bring about a binational state in today’s Israel alongside the new Palestinian state.
There are currently around 1.6 million Israeli Arabs in the country and Maariv estimated that transferring 300,000 of those residents to a Palestinian state would leave Israel’s Arab population at around 12%.
By drawing on land from the triangle, where two of Israel’s largest Arab towns, Tayibe and Umm al-Fahm are located, Israel would be able to offer the Palestinians more territorial compensation in order to annex more West Bank settlement areas, the report said.
The idea of swapping territory including the residents who live on it has been discussed for years in some Israeli political circles. Foreign Minister Avigdor Liberman has long argued that it would be a mistake, and inequitable, for Israel to relinquish unpopulated Israeli territory to the Palestinians in exchange for annexing settler-populated territory in the West Bank. Maariv noted that Liberman consistently raises his proposals in contacts with American and European interlocutors, and that he recently held talks on the peace process with Kerry in Washington.
In the formal peace talks with the Palestinians, the report went on, Israel has told the Palestinians which territory it seeks to annex in the West Bank under any future accord, but has not detailed how it would be willing to compensate the Palestinians. Justice Minister Tzipi Livni, leading those talks, has asked the Palestinians what they want in return.
Aside from the land issue another major sticking point in the negotiations is Netanyahu’s demand, even after the establishment of a Palestinian state, to maintain IDF forces in the Jordan Valley and full control over the border between the West Bank and Jordan. Israel insists on control there out of security concerns, while the Palestinians emphatically reject any Israeli presence on the territory of a future state.
Palestinian Authority Prime Minister Rami Hamdallah told Maariv that, from his point of view, there was nothing to discuss over the matter. “We are talking about a clear message to Israel and the US: The Jordan Valley is Palestinian,” he said.
Hamdallah also made clear that, despite repeated assertions by chief PA negotiator Saeb Erekat that there was no point in continuing talks, the Palestinians would see through the nine-month negotiating period agreed with Kerry. “We committed to the Americans to hold talks until April and we will keep that commitment,” he said.
Kerry is due to arrive in the region on Thursday for his tenth visit this year, to try to push for a framework agreement that, while not a signed document, would address all core issues, including the borders between Israel and a future Palestine; security; Palestinian refugees; and conflicting claims to the holy city of Jerusalem. The framework deal reportedly includes clauses providing for Israeli readiness under certain conditions to partner the Palestinians to a state based on the pre-1967 lines with land swaps, and for the Palestinians to recognize Israel as a Jewish state and declare an end to the conflict.
Kerry reportedly hopes to have the sides agree in the course of January to proceed on the basis of the framework deal, and to extend the negotiating period beyond April.
yamit82 Said:
I was correct the first time Darlin, I know men like you like I know the palm of y hand!!!!!!!!!! http://youtu.be/5UWRypqz5-o
honeybee Said:
This is me
This was me
Shy Guy Said:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-AIpF4f94_ZE/Up1QbZziezI/AAAAAAAA2No/aSwZpFKBz9M/s1600/NeonSuperman.gif
honeybee Said:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-wFdbN8eTobM/UYPQF9aQKbI/AAAAAAAAqao/4_yQ9GEzw30/s400/BatmanDance.gif
Gaza Leader: Hamas Not Interested in Clash with Israel
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/284078#.UsXOqfRDvXo
@ yamit82:
this may indicare a leash and the continuance of a GCC aggreement with Israel re Iran and its proxies. then agian it might not, it might be a cigar. 😛
Shy Guy Said:
Yamit82 is an Iroquois, I thought he was from NY state????
My comment to Bernard Ross blocked by spam filter
@ bernard ross:
I believe they are awed by the responsibility and always seek to play it safe while protecting their position internally against the opposition and if they are on the right an aggressive left and leftist media and press provides a check and balance to the right’s power. Begin after 33years in opposition always talked the talk but couldn’t govern when he got the chance and brought in Labor apparatchiks to fill ministerial slots. They made no changes to the entrenched labor established bureaucracy and judiciary to this day. They are total bourgeois, mentally and functionally.
Then there is always the Peter Principle.
honeybee Said:
Now that made me snicker!
honeybee Said:
That was an Iroquois, not an Apache. Ug!
Shy Guy Said:
I was born without nuts,but aquired them through marriage. Was that Yamit82 in the Apache???????
honeybee Said:
Quit your jibba jabba, woman!!!
Shy Guy Said:
How did you know Mr. Guy that I love chocolate: http://youtu.be/n9MqJrQ5xbg
yamit82 Said:
I believe they become privy to info they did not have before which cannot be released (e.g. discovering Israel has no nukes)or become the subjects of personal blackmail.
yamit82 Said:
first, you won it and then you decide to share if it is in your interest. The current GOI narrative is that the jews have no claim, therefore the Pals are winning.
yamit82 Said:
It can backfire, what if they recognized a Jewsih state and called it raquiya. The real danger is in leaving the fate of Israel in the hands of those you vanquished as a cheap negotiating tactic which appears to be bogus to all. this is why the US keeps coming up with security “solutions”. the land belongs to the jews and is in the possession of the Jews; if the pas dont comply they must leave, they cannot be citizens because the Jews do not want them within their home.
CuriousAmerican Said:
for the same reason they would refuse your jews paying them to leave.
honeybee Said:
Pick me up in Hershey.
Shy Guy Said:
I want to kidnap you in my Blue Plymouth. http://youtu.be/I9GTKJrLgYc
yamit82 Said:
Sorta like…
CuriousAmerican Said:
The mills of G-d grind exceeding slow,but exceeding fine!!!!!!!!
CuriousAmerican Said:
Why do you want too?????????????/
yamit82 Said:
We should have bets on how many time a day [Israeli time] Yamit82 and Bernard Ross are modified. Take odds on it and all, share the winning with Ted.
yamit82 Said:
Tx says it took you this #@&$ing long to figuere that out!!!!!!!
yamit82 Said:
Those are just for work. My old Blue Plymouth [it was named him Tiglath Pilser ] gave me freedom.
honeybee Said:
Shocked ? No, I’m not shocked but your best lover was a blue machine? You are weird. I liked my cars but never as a lover but different strokes for different folks what ever you get off on! How about garbage disposals? Blenders? Vacuum Cleaners? I know, how about humungous auto compactors???????
CuriousAmerican Said:
Duh!!!
@ Marty:
We can only hope!!
Comment in moderation. 1 for 1 so far today.
CuriousAmerican Said:
sharon served as Prime Minister of Israel (2001–2006)
In the largest gush Katif settlement Neve Dekalim some 6,000 mortars and Qassam rockets fired from the Palestinian towns in Gaza fell on them since the second intifada erupted in 2001, one for every settler. By the Time Olmert took over from Sharon there were some 8000 mortar and rocket attaks on all Katif settlements and Sederot just across the Gaza Israel border. Sharon did little to stop the rain of missiles on Jews including IDF soldiers.
The Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center reports that the number of Palestinian rockets fired per year were:
2001: ??4
2002: ?35
2003: 155
2004: 281
2005: 179
___________________________________________________________
2006: 946
2007: 896
2008: 2,048
___________________________________________________________
The progressive increase in rocket fire it tied lack of promised hard response by Sharon and Mofaz and to both to the removal of the settlers,the IDF and the unimpeded progressive development of the homemade manufacture of the Kassam rockets. The above table does not include mortar fire just Kassams. and I believe under stated.
Even before Sharon had his stroke the Hamas had taken over Neve Dekalim made it into a military Hamas base which manufactured Kassam rockets and used the base as a firing platform to attack settlements inside of “sovereign” Israel. Hundreds more were fired before Sharon’s deserved stroke.
@ bernard ross:
Sharon gave away Gush katif and has spent 8 years in a comma. I wonder if Kerry, BB, and Obama could join him after they give some land away.
This official quotation encapsulates everything that is wrong with Palestinian negotiations:
I wish some israeli official would ask this gentleman: “When and how did that happen?”
Didn’t he have his stroke soon after the withdrawal from Gaza? Not 5 years later.
Why not?!
@ yamit82:
I had my Dad’s first car 1948 blue plymouth, I use to street race with it. I know,your shocked!!!! There was no one I couldn’t take including you Karmann Ghia. That car was the best lover I ever had.
yamit82 Said:
Men have no stayng power!!!! The older women became the fiercer they become, case in point Judge Judy!!!!!
@ honeybee:
My second car was a 1955 Porsche followed by a Karmann Ghia in the early 60’s both used 3rd hand and I had a lot of repairing to do to get them roadworthy but they were fun to drive and cheap to buy.
yamit82 Said:
Here’s you a two-step, not as good as “long Neck Bottle”,but it’ll do. http://youtu.be/wh5jfvNOwK0
CuriousAmerican Said:
I don’t care you choose for me.
You still have not answered my question.
Answering a question with another question is a Jewish thing and you are not welcome to use our schtick ( For Jews ONLY)
My comment to Ross in moderation . This has become like the Texas 2 step 2 comment go through and the 3rd blocked no matter the topic, or length. Irrational.
bernard ross Said:
Begin phoned Sharon from Camp David to get his OK for giving up Sinai and reducing all Jewish Settlements to rubble. He was positive and without his OK it’s said Begin would not have agreed. Years later he said it was a mistake bbut the damage was done. Then he compounded it with Gaza. Then he compounded the withdrawal from Gaza by his timid to no response of hundreds and more than a thousand attacks by Hamas after his evacuation of Gaza and the IDF. It took him 5 years to get the Intifada under control again by being timid in response and his refusal to use the necessary power of the IDF to quell the intifada in the early stages after barak failed and lost the election in a landslide to Sharon. The people voted for his to live up to his harline military rep and he acted like a scared Rabbit shaking in front of Bush the idiot and his Black plague adviser Condi Rice. His standard quip: “Things look different from up here than down there.”
Something happenes to our mythical heroes when they get old and when they attain real power. They all become Mush and or like the emperor with no clothes.
All of them when youg did heroic stuf like Dayan, Begin, Rabin even Peres but once on top they all failed miserably. Such is the stuff of heroes.
Barak was a natual killer and the most decorated soldier in Israel’s history. BB was an officer in our most elite commando unit as was his brother and Barak was his CO. Sharon’s stuff is legend.
If he had stayed out of politics and stayed on his ranch/farm he would have been revered by most Israelis now after Gaza and his handling of the intifada his name has become for many past supporters a dirty word. Almost since his stroke his has been a forgotten figure in Israel.
What is the definition of the word “mean” which you are using.
1) nasty
2) average
3) coarse
4) stingy
5) excellent
6) signify
7) strong
The entire concept of land for peace, negotiations based on 1967 lines, land swaps to provide compensation is idiotic. the acceptance of these principles by any israeli PM should warrant his resignation. Israel’s negotiating position should be based on its own interests and not on how to satisfy the US or the EU and especially not the arabs. Israel should present a plan which is clearly in its own interests, or better none at all. Also Israel should not prolong the myth that Israel is bound by a timeline to come to conclusions. The only parameters for Israel should be what is in the interests of Israel. The US under Obama has become an enemy of Israel and the jewish people by collaborating in libels and pressures propagated by the EU/arab cabal. Israel should do everything possible to dig up dirt on this US admin and undermine their ability to pressure. Israel and the Jewish people have been conned into another swindle by foreign anti semitic interests. JUST SAY NO!!!
CuriousAmerican Said:
Interesting even telling choice of terms.
Do you mean:
A- Like an Indian Reserve (Reservation)?
B- Booking a place in a restaurant, a table reservatioin?
C-A caveat to a treaty?
D-Reservation of the Sacrament?
E-A nature Reserve?
F- A military base?
yamit82 Said:
His Legacy: evicting Jews from their homes!
@ yamit82:
You may have missed the above sentence I also wrote. I am making no mistake as I am only commenting on what I believe the positions of Bibi and the PLO to be.
I am not for moving a single Jew from their homes or any Pal State no what the piece of paper says. I am for annexing Area C and dealing with the Arabs in A & B with new parameters and destroying the PA.
This will fail.
What the Arabs want – and Israel cannot safely give – is an open border with Jordan. If the Arabs get the triangle, but not an open border with Jordan, they will only have a bigger reservation.
The only one to benefit would be Israel who would be free of 300,000 Arabs.
The Arabs know this … and would refuse the trade.
No peace is possible.
What now? another comment moderated for NO reason….!!!
@ Bear Klein:
In advertising they say sell the sizzle not the steak.
Appears you have bought the BB sizzle. Hook line and sinker.
It doesn’t matter what the Palis agree to or not, if they did BB would give but as bad, he has set the principle of everything is for sale and we are not the legal owners of any of the territories by right.
Even setting security as a standard does not address our rights only our needs. Nobody gives a shit about our needs not even our PM’s as they can’t even agree on Needs no less establish and maintain the principle of Jewish rights. If we have no rights but only needs, then we are occupiers and thieves and the world is correct.
There is a substantive difference between agreeing to share what is yours for a real end of conflict Peace,as opposed to being pressured and forced to give away territory because you decry you need it for any reason.
You make the mistake of counting on and depending on the Arabs to pull our chestnuts out of the fire. Dangerous because one day they won’t and where will we be after already declaring that we are occupiers and thieves.
Principles and tactics do matter as well as declarations.
Bibi is not willing to cede the settlement blocks or the Golan in exchange for his security and recognition requirements.
The trouble is he is willing to destroy some settlements if his conditions are met. This is a colossal mistake we have already made in Gaza and should never repeat.
The Pals will not agree to his conditions: waiving right of return (including final settlement recognizing a Jewish State of Israel, Intact Israeli Jewish Jerusalem, Jordan Valley and security on the ground and air in all of Judah and Samaria.
Eventually Kerry and Obama will not be able to keep the Pals in the negotiations and then I hope we can get on to annexing Area C.
@ Shy Guy:
5 different Israeli Prime Ministers were ready to withdraw to the June 4, 1967 line with Syria and, at the last minute, changed their mind. It matters not a bit that they all failed. What matters and what is important is that they were all willing to return all of the Golan up to the water line of the kinneret. It was their willingness to retreat that is disturbing with the support of most of the top military and security heads and their institutions, that should be sending Red Alerts throughout the country. If they were so wrong with Syria and with Gush Katif why should they be believed and allowed to continue today with the Palis? The public should be reminded of their past critical errors of judgement and faulty conceptions…. How many chances to screw up should they be given?
In view of what is taking place in Syria one can only recoil by their collective myopic group think when contemplating our security situation today if they had succeeded. Yet BB and all of the others who were involved have not apparently internalized their conceptual error and are continuing to repeat them.
BB today should be nailed to a cross for his agreement to cede the Golan and his lack judgement then connected with his lack of judgement today should be spotlighted in every forum.
When the secret negotiations and details were made public he lied and lied as to the deatails saying that he was not willing to cede to Assad and Syrian more than a few miles and certainly well before the rim of the Golan. He lied!!!!
“It Was Not about Dipping Assad’s Feet into the Water of the Kinneret that Prevented Peace”
http://www.scribd.com/doc/30566508/Maariv-Apr27-10-Netanyahu-Assad
This is Lieberman’s plan, for those not familiar.
As I already noted, that is not going to happen.
Only one side wants peace – the Arabs are only at the table to get Israel to release to them the final batch of terrorists in April.
It takes two sides to reach an agreement. There is no meeting of the minds in sight between the Palestinian Arabs and Israel.