By Evelyn Gordon, Commentary
Israel marked the 10th anniversary of its unilateral pullout from Gaza this week with a rare consensus: The disengagement was a disaster. Even opposition leader and Labor Party chairman Isaac Herzog admitted that “from a security perspective, the disengagement was a mistake. While he still considers it “essential” demographically, he isn’t sure he would have voted for it had he known then what he knows now. And this is the man who, back in 2005,declared that, thanks to the disengagement, “for the first time in decades there is genuine hope” for “lasting peace.”
Equally remarkable was a poll of Israeli Jews earlier this month asking whether they supported or opposed the pullout at the time. An overwhelming majority of respondents – 59 percent – asserted that they had opposed it, while only 34 percent admitted to having supported it. That, of course, is far from the truth; polls at the time consistently showed solid pluralities or majorities favoring the disengagement, while only about a third of Israelis opposed it. But this revisionist history accurately reflects Israelis’ current view of the withdrawal: Many of those who once backed it are now convinced they must actually have opposed it, because they simply can’t imagine they would have supported any idea as disastrous as this one proved to be. And even among those still willing to admit they once supported it, almost one-fifth now regret doing so.
It’s not just the obvious fact that the Palestinians turned Gaza into a giant launch pad from which some 16,500 rockets and mortars have been fired at Israel over the past decade, whereas exactly zero have been fired from the Israeli-controlled West Bank over the same period. It’s not just that quitting Gaza has resulted in more Israeli soldiers being killed, and also more Palestinians, than occupying Gaza ever did. It’s not just that after Israel withdrew every last settler and soldier from Gaza, the world has sought to deny it the right to defend itself against the ensuing rocket attacks by greeting every military operation with escalating condemnation, accusations of war crimes, and attempts to prosecute it in the International Criminal Court. It’s not just that the withdrawal ended up worsening global anti-Semitism, since every military operation in Gaza has served as an excuse for a massive upsurge in anti-Semitic attacks worldwide. It’s not just that Israel received zero diplomatic credit for the pullout, with most of the world not only still insisting that Gaza is “Israeli-occupied territory,” but excoriating Israel with escalating ferocity, and eventhreatening sanctions, for its reluctance to repeat this disastrous experiment in the West Bank, while assigning Palestinians zero responsibility for the impasse.
All these are certainly reasons enough to consider the pullout a disaster. But there’s one final negative outcome, as reflected in another poll released last week: Due to this Israeli reluctance, born of hard experience, a majority of overseas Jews now deems Israel insufficiently committed to peace. And that, in some ways, is the worst betrayal of all. Most Israelis don’t expect much from the Palestinians or the UN or Europe. But they do expect their fellow Jews to sympathize with their fear that withdrawing from the West Bank would simply replicate the Gaza disaster on a much larger scale.
After all, none of the negative consequences that ensued in Gaza can be blamed on the popular distinction between the “moderate” Fatah, led by Mahmoud Abbas, and the “hardline” Hamas. For Gaza wasn’t handed over to Hamas, but to Abbas. He’s the one who first enabled the escalation by refusing to use his forces to stop it; consequently, there were more than four times as many rocket attacks in 2006, the first year after the disengagement, as in either of the previous two years. And he’s the one who lost Gaza to Hamas in a bloody coup in mid-2007 when the latter decided it no longer needed a fig leaf.
Thus Israel has no reason whatsoever to think giving Abbas the West Bank wouldn’t produce the same result, except with even more disastrous consequences. Hitting major Israeli population centers from Gaza requires long-range rockets; from the West Bank, easily produced short-range rockets suffice. Nor should we forget suicide bombings, which, during the second intifada (2000-2005), caused more Israeli casualties in four years than all the terror attacks of the entire previous 53 years combined. Those attacks were launched almost exclusively from parts of the West Bank controlled by the Palestinian Authority, and they stopped only when the Israeli army retook control of these areas – meaning Israel’s previous experiment with ceding parts of the West Bank was even less encouraging than the Gaza experiment has been.
Most Israelis would still be willing to trade land for peace, but they’ve had enough of trading land for terror. And until overseas Jews can produce a convincing argument for why the next pullout would be any different than all the previous ones, it would be nice if they instead practiced the traditional Jewish value of giving fellow Jews the benefit of the doubt. To interpret caution born of grim experience as disinterest in peace isn’t merely unfair; it’s downright malicious.
Originally published in Commentary on July 29, 2015
yamit82 Said:
Must I use Grandma’s lye soap on you again.???????
babushka Said:
You live in Israel?
Haaaaa!! one comment already got botted and another in moderation. Such a welcome return Thanks Ted! 😀
@ yamit82: Actually of the many things you seem to forget is the Bayit HaYehudi led by Bennett is my party of choice. Unfortunately they missed a step or two during the election campaign and did not get as many mandates as I hoped.
Luckily they still did better than Yachad which turned out to be too impractical to get enough votes to even cross the thresh hold.
Felix Quigley Said:
Again Felix you are fabricating as all you commies do. You couldn’t speak the truth if your sorry life depended on it, I really love brain dead ideologues and religious fanatics like you; those like you have murdered hundreds of millions of people only in the last 100 years you are Evil incarnate and yes you are the true fascist, got that Bub???
@ SHmuel HaLevi 2:
@ Bear Klein:
As you see I am the only one who can induce or seduce Yamit82 into leaving his cave here in the Chinate Mts. of Border Texas. I use falafel for bait. I catch Gila Monsters and Rattlers with them.
For people who say Bibi never built anything and only talks building Har Homa is sure good talking.
@ babushka:
I didn’t realize you lived here in Israel 😛
bernard ross Said:
Yup and we better learn to live with and love Duh Bomb!!! 🙂
@ honeybee:
Not to worry he can take care of himself,HB 🙂
@ honeybee:
🙂 I’ll be fine G.d willing. We are staying at a very secluded location in Jerusalem and most of our group lives in Judea and Samaria. I need to look see what is really happening there.
What we are facing is the net result of failing to protect Jews and Jewish interests by the government thus eventually causing harsh reactions by the people.
I do not justify murder or assaults by anyone, yet so far the only ones being trodden by the muslims and the government are Jews. Everywhere,in Temple Mount, and all over.
@ Bear Klein:
I didn’t predict he would lose I said he could well lose based on polling trends and I was right only his last min gambit scare tactic a lie thru and thru pulled his potato out of the fire. Stupid Jews bought into his BS gambit just like you.
As for Yachad they lost for the same reason Bennett lost almost half his strength….Those same brain dead Jews believed that BB would save them from the left and I say again BB is the left. There is no essential difference in policy except that BB is a political coward who will always cave to any pressure exerted against him right left or Obama…. I would rather have any common Mafia Don running Israel then than fucking BB. He will get us all incinerated and begone before the shit falls on us.
@ SHmuel HaLevi 2:
@ Bear Klein
Let”s not BBQ, Shumuel !!!!!!!!!!!
@ Bear Klein:
@ SHmuel HaLevi 2: Be safe! A friend just told me lot of rock throwers and molotov cocktails even.
Bear Klein Said:
Yawl !!
@ honeybee: Painting people into little boxes and labeling them unfortunately is so common and an easy to way to lash out at people. The web makes this even easier. It is much harder to have nuanced discussion of issues with shades of gray.
You are one of the one’s who always notes this with your Texas drawl.
@ bernard ross:
This is a fact! Obama’s threats have slowed Israeli expansion in Y/S and what one does not understand what these threats do to Israeli politicians and the public.
babushka Said:
Don’t paint us all with same brush!!!!!!!!! there are those of us that neither liberal , New Yorker, or Angelinos. Please remember that a fellow Texan ” Lone Soldier” died fighting in Gaza last year.
I’ll be visiting Judea and Samaria as well as Jerusalem in three days.
I will try to visit Temple Mount and report every aspect of the try.
We will be going on from Efrat to all the locations recently destroyed by Netanyahu and see what if any construction is going on.
On the third day we will make a tour to as many Jewish villages as we can.
We will report facts not specially fabricated polls.
Will not be on line for a few days so Bear can continue to shill for the disaster at ease.
@ Bear Klein:
prio to the election BB promised that he would seek Benett first which is why pro settlement folks gave Bb a vote instead of their first choice Benett. They felt they would not be harming Benetts platform. However, after the election Bb did the opposite, he put Benett last, gave him a eunuch ministry, proceeded to remove YS from all discussion, obstructed the vote to change the supreme court which might have prevented future court action against Jewish settlement in YS. He did the opposite, I beleive, of what YOU voted for.
(not to mention NEVER doing anything to end abuse of jews on the mount by muslims)
Bear Klein Said:
I dont mind disagreement. We can discuss and disagree. It had appeared to me from your posts that your support of BB is based on a belief in his words, however I cannot see what that belief is based on because it does not appear to be based on facts. your latest post appears to reflect that you support or vote for BB is based on a fear of the left attaining power,which was exactly the panic he created which drew Bennets votes to him. But that fear was unfounded as had Bennet kept his votes and BB had less they would still have had a majority coalition on the right, BB would still be PM but Benett and the right would have a great deal more influence in the facts on the ground. Now BB has shown that with his power he kills the right by neutering Bennett. BB may have destroyed the right for later elections as any reelection will unlikely now give Benett much because he demonstrated himself as a weak eunuch. Do you deny that the likelihood of any building outside the major blocks is almost nil, notwithstanding the 300 units which he promised years ago and reneged on. This 300 units was forced by pressure and we still only have words. His obstruction of the supreme court bill is very telling as to who he is.
Bear Klein Said:
this appears to agree 100% with my statement:
bernard ross Said:
If you are pro settlement, pro ending abuse of jews by muslims, etc AND support BB then I suggest you let him and your party know that you want him to do these things because there is little evidence that without pressure from Israelis or his constituency that he will implement any of them. In the meantime, I will keep exposing what I consider to be the wrong agenda for a right wing politician.
The police on the Mount watch for the “murmuring lips” of Jews who might be illegally praying. This is the behavior of the nazi gestapo of germany and not a proper behavior of an Israeli Jewish police force. I want BB to end those abuses and therefore I paint the picture I see when his gov allows those travesties.
bernard ross says,
He said Bibi would loose the election and give away land and cave to Obama ( I believe) Wrong & Wrong. He also said Yachad (farthest right party) would end up in the government. Unfortunately wrong again as they did not make the cut and will be history soon.
Only being anti without a positive realistic way forward achieves what?
The Labor started the settlements but the Likud has increased them and enlarged them. Not always fast enough. Bibi started Har Homa (very important Jerusalem suburb).
Bringing Likud down and bringing in Herzog or Livni would lead perhaps to more land to Palestinians. This is a real possibility. I know you do not believe in Bibi (and you are not alone). Reality of Israel says at this point in time he is the best choice. I also want E1 annexed and Maalah Adumin expanded (they are adjacent). I want the Jordan Valley Jewish towns expanded with more Jews they are too sparse. Bibi is basically mainstream Israel (Israel is slightly to the right) and the Likud is mostly right. Until the Likud gets a new charismatic leader or Bayit Yehudi becomes more inclusive Bibi is the best we got (good or mediocre)!
Felix Quigley Said:
and yet it was BB who put livni in a position of justice ministry in order to maintain a leftist outcome over YS. Livni never changed, BB is the perennial chameleon
Felix Quigley Said:
what is trotskyism, how can it help israel, are there any trotskyites to vote for in Israel or a trotsky party, where do you come in?
Felix Quigley Said:
a self contradictory statment, understanding a problem usuallly comes from studying a problem closely.
Felix Quigley Said:
On the contrary, if pro settlement Jews had not panicked from voting BEnnett to voting BB they would now still have a gov led by BB but with a much higher representation of the pro settlement agenda. BB did not have a majority when he formed his first gov.
Felix Quigley Said:
BB is PM, we are not…. you may not realize it but his responsibility and obligation is different from ours.
Those splitting the people are those who tell lies and misrepresent the facts to Israelis and foreigners such as: settlement is illegal an illegitimate, Jews may be abused by muslims in Israel, levy report obsturction, supreme court change obstruction, E1 building obstruction, 300 units in beit el years ago, etc Truth cannot split the Israeli or Jewish people, only lies can split them. It is in the origin and cause of the splits that we are able to identify the lies.
Felix Quigley Said:
My perspective has always been clear: first identify facts, then interpret the facts, then seek to influence a change in the facts. My perspective is to influence those pro settlement folks who voted BB to put pressure on him to implement the policies for which they voted. that should be pretty clear even to a troskyite, whatever that is.
Felix Quigley Said:
his predictions regarding BB are coming true.
@ <a href="#comment-63356000159242" title="Go to comment of thParticipants author”Felix Quigley: —
a http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=27267
@ bernard ross: Ross by the way many times I agree with you.
You may not acknowledge my points but that does not matter. I speak my mind always. The fact is you are right and the continuall attacks on Bibi are wrong.
If it was not for Bibi pre election these would enver have smelled power.
Now it is posible to defend the views of Bennett while at the same time offering an alternative to Bennett.
This is where I come in and where Trotskyism comes in.
Only Trotskyism ahs the history to fill this vacuum.
That is a true statement. Whether that happens or not is another matter.
But bear Klein you have your heart with Israel and your instincts of defending are proper.
For about 10 years I have been calling on Yamit el al to state their programme but they do not because they cannot.
@ SHmuel HaLevi 2: I think even if we get very frustrated we need to encourage people like Hotovely to accomplish the beliefs she states.
I am against civil wars and bringing down coalitions that will bring the left to power. I work from a perspective of realism. This means working with people who do not always do what I like or at pace of accomplishment that I like.
I can look at the cup as half full. I want NO MORE Olmerts or Shimon Peres types to be Prime Minister.
I understand you may not agree with my perspective and I am fine with that (no offense meant).
If we bring down this government we bring down the Hotovely’s and Bayit Yehudi with it. I do not think this will accomplish anything constructive.
Typical Yamit/Bernard!
Full of pious cant. But meaningless.
Bibi won the election to keep Livni out of power. I salute everyhting he did to that end.
Not Bernard though! Talk about confused!
Without studying the above too closely I understand very well the overall problema. If Jews had followed Shmuel, Bernard and Yamit then they would have now a Livni Party IN POWER because their position in the election was uncertain.
Now everything that happens they pile onto Bibi.
But Bibi is not the problem with Israel.
Shmuel, Bernard and Yamit are SPLITTING the Israeli people and always will be
Bernard has no perspective and speaks out of frustration totally
Not one EVER to follow and where now are the mangy old politics of Yamit now?
@ Bear Klein:
I can’t help it but to come in, with Bernard’s permission please, to try to make you understand how far off are you with respect to the chief betrayer, liar and worse ways and means.
TO WIT.
Israeli Law has NOT been extended to Yehudah and Shomron. True or false Bear?
Yet you liege and his gangsters noisily pipe that “we are a country of laws” when the self elected supreme courtiers use Jewish Law valid ONLY within the present limits of Israel, (if at all), to render decisions… affecting life in all aspects in Y & S which are not under Jewish Law. It is as if the perverted morons would issue decisions applicable to Cairo or Montevideo.
Every T, D & J runs to the ghastly gang led by Netanyahu to demand that the… court… issue decrees against Jews living outside the gangsters jurisdiction.
Further, the filthy criminals in police uniform assault people also living outside the demarcated limits of their jurisdiction. The beasts are chartered to uphold the Law as INTERNAL Security elements. (Of course, when they are not busy taking bribes and other crimes they perform in their sphere). To the best of my knowledge Y & S are not part, (yet), of the police lawful areas of work.
I sent to Minister Hotovely as well as to top Jurists world wide, including to Ted, the above analysis before the Minister proposed the election of a special forum to dispense justice to Jews in Y & S and severely remove the courtiers and police from further violating the Law.
Bear, try to use your ability to talk based on facts not as part of idiotic mantras without any base on fact.
Bear Klein Said:
you tell me, you see what I post so you can tell me where my remote assessments are wrong. On the other hand sometimes folks are so deep in the forest that they cant tell the forest from the trees. I assess what appear to be the facts with my interpretations. I have always deferred to Israelis on specific facts and detail, and always open to opposing views. In our discussion I don’t see you disagreeing with my facts, or even my perspective on the facts. I used to defend BB until I was more aware of his history factually, and much from other posters here, now it is a simple matter of seeing talk disagreeing with action and his electioneering MO appears to me to be dishonest to voters. I await your points of disagreement.
Bear Klein Said:
I don’t see my posts as negatively critical… I simply put a different perspective on the same set of facts that we both are seeing. If you disagree with my facts or my interpretation of the facts then tell me, but you must understand after a number of years it is fatiguing to hear BB”s repeated refrain, especially after seeing the scam he pulled off at the last election; where he fraudulently panicked voters who support settlement into voting for him. BTW I am surprised that if you live in Israel that you were not aware of what Beit el status and history was. I am often astounded that a nation as small and abused as Israel is not more aware of its own history.
Israelis need not concern themselves with anything I say but if what I am saying is true and they thought differently about BB before, as I did, then it would make sense to be concerned. If I am right about him it would mean that the votes for him from the right were thrown away and that he may be headed for a pre arranged deal which leaves YS out of Jewish settlement. But then maybe that is no concern as it appears that most Israelis are not very interested in retaining YS for Jews and Israel.
So does one who never lived in Israel or plans to live in Israel really have a remote feel what goes on in Israel?
Criticisms from all sides of the political spectrum from foreigners who have an attachment to Israel (or hate thereof) how much should Israelis concern themselves with this? Israel wants to get along with the diaspora but……
Bear Klein Said:
BB states his aims and desires…. should we take what he says seriously? this is the problem with those who follow BB, they are perpetually willing to accept words over deeds. I am tired of words and I dont even live there, arent you tired of it yet?
Bear Klein Said:
what’s your point???? are you asking us to get excited over more words?……… Deeds not words.
Bear Klein Said:
whats your point, he didnt build anything, he tore houses down, he made the same promise before to build 300 homes there?
announcements, ceremonies, cornerstones, declarations….. we have heard them before….like E1…. when he builds we will know… but until then its a waste of time to pretend that all these non building political activities and ceremonies are synonymous with building. when 300 are finished I will believe the 300, which is still a drop in the bucket. His track record stinks when comparing announcements with achievements.
Bibi I read wants to make Beit El a fourth settlement block area.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/198855#.VbqL-PlGh2A
@ bernard ross:
Seems as I thought Beit El is outside any of the blocks.
Bear Klein Said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beit_El
most likely a biased source
Bear Klein Said:
😛
Bear Klein Said:
ceremonies, cornerstones, messages…….
😛 😛 😛
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/198850#.Vbp04PlViko
Someone please help me is Beit El considered in any settlement block, I am not so good any more at geography. I know it is north of Jerusalem and near Ramalah.
Bear Klein Said:
there is NO party to the left of jewish home which seeks the settlement of Jews outside the existing major settlement blocks which everyone knows will be kept by Israel, and even possibly paid for with land inside the green line. Land outside those blocks in YS will not get new settlement and the only negotiation contemplated is the military oversight. Those that voted for likud believing they would build in or annex the vacant lands of C made a big mistake.
The Lack of a consensus of what land we are keeping makes for a weak selling point anywhere.
babushka Said:
the problem is not the diaspora, it is the jews of Israel who created this problem, whatever you see from the foreigners and jewish diaspora exists first in israel: the lies, the libels,etc… there is no gov, no religious sector, no supreme court in Israel, which does NOT delegitimize and defame the Jews in YS, on the MOunt and before the world through acts of commision or ommision. the pot in Israeli needs cleaning first.
this is the folly of the left whether in Israel or the US. they have big mouths, make big mistakes, mutter apologies and then demand to move on and be taken seriously rather than considered as naive, insane and dangerous and everything emanating from their mouths considered suspect.
In my view this comment is ignorant. the pot cannot call the kettle black. Every libel which springs from the Jewish diaspora and the foreigners began FIRST in Israel with Israeli leftist traitors, libelers, delegitimizers and the religious ultra orthodox in Israel. What about all those Israelis who want to leave the west bank? It is absurd to condemn the diaspora after decades of libelous rubbish uttered by Israeli leftists, transmitted by Haaretz as the “israeli” media of choice to the foreigners and diaspora…. it is Israel which is to blame.
How can the diaspora and foreigners see things if the israel supreme court says jews are illegal in YS, how can the diaspora and foreigners see things if a “right wing” PM evicts “illegal” settlers. How can the diaspora and foreigners see things if the PM allows Jews to be abused on the MOunt….surely these jews are wrong if their own “jewish” gov arrests them like gestapo. How can foreigners and dispaora see things if the PM NEVER contests the statements of illegality and illegitimacy of Jews in YS from foreign govs and orgs. How can the diaspora see things if black hatted peyot Jews NEVER contest the muslim sovereignty of the Mount and NEVER call for jewish settlement in YS? The gov of Israel, the media of Israel, the religious sector of Israel are first looked to for leadership from diaspora Jews and it is absurd to think that those without first hand knowledge will overide that which emanates from Israelis and their institutions.
The rot begins in Israel and that is where the problem must be confronted: as long as the representatives of Jews in israel: relgious, media, govs, political parties continue in their current mode the diaspora will remain confused and disoriented, reflecting the same divisions existing in Israel. After Herzog/Livni railed against BB for angering Hussein O, how do we expect americans to see things, both Jew and others. Now, after th damage is done the despicable traitors pretend to support BB agianst the Iran deal.
as long as the traitorous left and traitorous ultra orthodox continue to defame and libel things wil be worse in a confused diaspora. Why expect diaspora jews to unite behind, and behind who in Israel?
Only to the right of likud and beginning with Jewish Home does the delegitimization begin to cease. The diaspora reflects the insanity of the Jews in Israel and their inability to cease delegitimization of jews by commission or ommission. the diaspora beleives that Israelis know better as they are in it, so when they delegitimize to such an extent… where there is smoke there is fire. Israel must stop whining about the diaspora when they are the cause. One cannot end decades of delegitimization with a simple statement.
There is NO Israeli gov,religious sector, supreme court to unite behind that is NOT delegitimizing Jews in YS, on the Mount and who is NOT allowing the continuing abuse of Jews in the land of israel.
Forget this article want to get annoyed read,
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Encountering-peace-The-disengagement-10-years-on-What-we-choose-to-forget-410545
Most Jews overseas have never been to Israel and do not think about Gaza or yet know anything about it. So these generalizations and polls and surveys are about a bunch of nothing.
The hateful reactions on both sides of the spectrum are really not constructive to be polite and understated.
Write off Diaspora Jews and their Gentile masters. Do what must be done to survive, which obviously must not include giving land to people who want you dead.
UnJews in general are not any longer of our concern.
We must reject any semblance of proximity to that ensemble. They are poison, bad news, treacherous, unreliable, corrupt, goners.
Our consensus is what counts, here in Eretz Israel. In turn “if they like Hussein de Obama Kenyan, they can have it”. Away, far away from here.